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the truth shall set you free

Discussion in 'NonChristian Help Forum' started by Natedeezy, Oct 15, 2015.

  1. Natedeezy

    Natedeezy New Member

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    I've really struggled lately. Because of NDE's, I DO believe in something after this life. And I actually like what Jesus' teachings, however there are soooo many contradictions in the bible that I don't think I'll ever be able to unquestionably accept it. The bible itself says the we shall know the truth and it shall set us free. How can this teaching coincide with the belief that we'd ever accept the bible given its discrepencies? It's said to have been written by God, but if it was, there'd be no error, unless the error was intended. The fact that Noah's ark makes no sense, and that there are MULTIPLE contractions of NUMBERS!! I mean if it were written by GOd, how could there be a discrepancy in numbers!!!????? such as the amount of people who died in a certain battle of maybe david, I can't remember exactly but I could look it up if you're interested. The only explanation for error is it was miscopied, or it's written by man. Even if it were miscopied, it then begs the question, what else was? What if lots were!? Suddenly we might not be following what God intended if there's miscopied parts. Especially since much of the Bible is left to personal interpretation. A single omission of a word or misplacement of a word can change the teaching entirely. So, does the truth shall set you free mean, that the bible is basically not important, bc who the hell knows what from it can be trusted? And hat it's not about words, it's about the way we live our life. I've met sooooo many "chrisitians" who basically live no different than a non-Christian outside of they go to church, and pronounce with their voice that they accept jesus, which IMO is totally meaningless in and of itself, as are the song and dance rituals such as baptism and whatnot. To me, what matters is what's in your heart and how brave you are to openly love. I think these are important because they are not easy things like going to a building and talking about a person who lived long ago, they require facing fear and overcoming challenge. In my most honest opinion, I can't stress the shallowness in depth of thought and contemplation enough to think that uttering a magical string of words is somehow what the purpose of this life is about....
     
  2. TopherNelson

    TopherNelson New Member

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    Noah's ark. Where did all the water went to? Heard of Ground water...
     
  3. Well, I don't know if my perspective will help. But you're welcome to it anyway. If the user name weren't obvious, I'm an atheist - so obviously that's the perspective that I'm coming from.

    Having had similar myself, I don't find NDEs convincing. The symptoms of an NDE follow pretty much exactly the symptoms of oxygen starvation to the brain. There's no reason at all to ascribe any kind of supernatural significance to them.

    I agree with you on both counts there, although I would query why you think that you would need to "unquestionably accept" the Bible? Inerrantism and literalism are minority views within Christianity (although living in America, particularly in the South, might be misleading about that since that's where such beliefs are most common). While I don't personally believe that there is a God or that Jesus was his son, there are millions of Christians around the world who do believe that without believing that the Bible is without contradiction.

    I agree that the two can't coincide. But again, I think you're looking from an overly narrow perspective. You say that the Bible "is said to be written by God", but it's only a minority of Christians who say that. Most Christians accept that it was written by a variety of men with a variety of motives.

    The story of Noah is a fascinating example of how we can see that the Bible was written by multiple men with different beliefs and agendas. Are you aware that the version we see in the Bible has been literally spliced together from two different stories?

    I agree. It was obviously written by "man" - or more accurately "multiple men with differing beliefs and agendas". This is not a problem for most Christians.

    I think you're mistaking the Bible for an instruction book, rather than a collection of people's thoughts, stories and metaphors about the Divine.

    The Bible is important as a record of what historical people believed, but part of that is the fact that they didn't all believe the same thing and they sometimes contradicted (or creatively reinterpreted) what previous people believed. The majority of modern Christians around the world (and again I need to emphasise that if you're in America you might get a different impression) would agree that Christianity is about how you live your life rather than about the words.

    I'd suggest that you need to talk to a wider variety of Christian. Personally I'm not one, but the theology and style of Christianity you speak of is by no means the only one. None of my Christian friends share it, for a start.

    So while I don't believe in God and I'm not a Christian, I don't think you should be so quick to dismiss it. You seem to have a very narrow idea of what Christianity is, when it's actually much more varied than that. Some other variety of Christianity may appeal to you. It doesn't appeal to me, but it might to you.
     
  4. Bibliocentrist

    Bibliocentrist New Member

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    I'm struggling having faith at present because of bad inside & outside, but a few cents worth:

    Where all the water went to?
    - 7/10ths of Earth surface are water. The average depth of oceans is 12,451 ft versus average height of land only 2,300 ft! If the surface of the earth was flat the water would stand over 7900 ft/1.5 mi deep. (Mountains werent as high nor oceans so deep before the flood?)
    - some in antarctic/arctic ice caps (enough to rise sealevels some)?
    - underground caverns/rivers?

    Why does Noah's ark make no sense?
    Peter's tied 4 corners sheet vessel in Acts seems abit/alot like Wyatt's/Fasold's reed-boat-like Noah's Ark (which is also abit like the reed boats of Titicaca).

    The 2 and 7 of each might be refering to clean and unclean, or 7 pairs, or 2 for postFlood and others for food/sacrifice. Or 2 could just mean each kind had to have at least 1 of each of both genders.

    Alot of seeming contradictions/discrepancies can be found answers to. Its abit like the prophets were mocked for 1 saying the king would be taken to Babylon and the other saying he would not see Babylon. His eyes were put out.

    There may or may not have been "2 stories merged together" ("J" & "E"). The 2 creations of man in Genesis 1 & 2 may really only be figurative type of two spiritual types/seeds (6th day man & 8th day man, j & e, shem/j & japheth/e).

    They say "the Truth is a person".

    Scribes do make mistakes. But ancient scribes (not just biblical ones) were very good at checking. We have copies as far back as the Dead Sea Scrolls that don't have much great difference.
    Actually our English translations of Hebrew/Greek are pretty poor/inadequite/inaccurate some/often times. Greek was divinely meant for the NT because of its language nature. Not all people that use the name christian are really christian. There are good and bad/fakes in every religious/political/etc group.
    You are certainly right that the heart and love really matter. I am not very good about the fear & overcoming myself though.
     
  5. Well obviously the geological/historical/archaeological/biological/chemical/physical evidence shows that the world wide flood described in the Biblical stories never happened, so believing in it at all is purely a matter of faith.

    Although I've never understood why people aren't satisfied with that and can't simply believe in it on faith despite the overwhelming evidence against it (after all, if God can flood the whole earth, he can most certainly do it without leaving evidence afterwards).

    It baffles me that so many believers in the flood try to mangle the evidence (and mangle science) to fit what they take on faith. Why not just say it was a miracle and be done with it?

    Trying to claim that the last couple of hundred years of science is wrong and that if it were "done right" it would support the flood (or a young earth) merely makes people look foolish in front of those who actually know what they're talking about.

    This isn't directed at you, Bibliocentrist, but at the sort of people like AiG who make a fortune selling religious snake oil to the uneducated.

    This comes from the fact that it's two stories interleaved. One of them has two of each animal type, and the other has two of each unclean animal type and seven of each clean animal type.

    The "contradictions" in the Bible aren't important. They're simply the obvious result of the fact that different authors writing at different times and places disagreed with each other. It shouldn't be surprising or controversial in any way.

    Unfortunately those who hold that the Bible must be literally true as a matter of dogma can't accept that, and must - as you say - find answers to these "contradictions" in order to rationalise them away. These answers range from the straightforward to the laughably bizarre and arcane when viewed by an outsider who isn't wedded to literalism and innerancy, but if they keep such believers happy then they're harmless enough.

    Actually the both the flood and creation stories are from J and P, not J and E. E doesn't have any stories prior to the story of Abram.
     
  6. Bibliocentrist

    Bibliocentrist New Member

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    I don't agree that geological/etc shows Flood never happened. It is true that Lorence Collins gives some challenging evidences, and is possible that the Flood wasn't global. You also have to take far more other evidences into consdieration. The Flood is universal "myth" all around the world in many nations/cutlures/"myths", and even the small details are very similar like the sending out of the bird/s etc. Your other field/s refuse to consider these evidences (and evidences in their own field/s). How can you say modern theorists are right and ancient memories/recounts are all wrong.
    http://historum.com/blogs/rob+banks/30979-no-evidence-global-flood.html

    I don't "try mangle" any evidence. Sure i make some mistakes (like in that above link), but they don't mean everything and everyone are all wrong.

    Please see some evidence of "science" being wrong here: https://senatorspark.wordpress.com/2015/07/11/answer-to-yec-attackers/ .
    And possible evidence of table of nations Genesis 10 proving all sapiens are post flood here:
    http://www.christianityboard.com/topic/21830-table-of-70-nations-gen-10/ .
    "Summer and winter" mentioned just after the Flood might be evidence of axis tilt during/before Flood?

    I half don't have any respect for AIG/CSI/CSF because they go/agree too close to wrong mainstream academic critics stuff, and they unfairly trash people like Wyatt.

    The 2 and 7 of animals is not necessarily from "two sources J & E".

    Any "contradictions" have to be specifically discussed & objectively investigated not just talk of unspecific contradictions. And one can not just take differences/contradictions but also have to take similarities/agreements/matches in to consideration. The many different books and authors have alot of amazing agreeing/coinciding details, some of which are hard to see as being human planned/designed.
    It is not a matter of "must find answers to" seeming "contradictions", it is a matter of that the "contradictions" aren't necessarily so/true and one has to totally objectively fully seek the truth.

    Orthodox academics are always trashing as "unreliable/suspect"/etc all early sources such as Herodotus, bible, "Nennius", Atlantis Account, yet we have discovered alot of evidences that these sources are not so untrue as the critics make out.

    I know/knew there are more alledged Documentary Hyposthesis sources than just J & E. (If i remember correctly (the relevant parts of) Genesis is mainly J & E or P?) I have to save time/effort and not post ridiculous hyper cautious excessively detailed. (Its just as annoying as having to write "(King) Arthur" in speech/quote marks and if we don't then the acadamic thugs attack saying "oh he wasn't a king [and may not have been a person named Arthur]". Its a darn pain having to always write "(King) Arthur".)

    As i said the Documentary Hypothesis may or may not be true. It is only part-theory not all-proven, and there are more than one Doc. Hyp. theory. Moses could have collated bits from Joseph/Hebrew, Egyptian, Sumerian. The 2 creations etc may just be figurative spiritual types. In Noah's curse it alledgely has Shem/Jah and Japheth/El. The inverted nuns in [Numbers?] may be a signature of Joshua verifying that Moses wrote the Torah?

    Unfortunately i can't find my darn rough notes from studying the Doc Hyp. (This is just one partial reason why i am angry at not having been able to do my good reference paper studies (due to hell situation & condition) not just rough/casual computer/net stuff.)

    Please I don't really want to get stuck having to reply to posts in here, it was just a quick few contributions. I have other things i need and want to do asap this week. Unfortunately i have to reply to anything that makes me paranoid that i am being made untruely/unfairly look just all dumb/wrong/bad/sick. So please if possible try to not get me stuck here, though you are entitled to answer anything you feel you must. (It is not because i am scared at all. Just have other things i seriously need and want to do, and have hell situation and condition.)

    Not that i have any faith anymore since after coming back yet again slightly briefly the last days i still suffering hell (i almost burnt the flat down &/or melted the oven wiring, bent nose breathing trouble, etc).
     
  7. I can't "refuse to consider" the evidence in the academic fields for a global flood because is no such evidence, and there is overwhelming evidence that contradicts a global flood.

    The people who have told you that there is academic evidence for a global flood are either letting their faith override their reason or simply lying to make money selling books and sermons and the like. It's as simple as that.

    Not that there's anything wrong with the former if it floats your boat (pun intended), but the latter give everyone else a bad name.

    It almost certainly is, and I'll show this in a separate post (although it's from J & P, not J & E - E starts at Abram and has no flood story).

    Seeking "the truth" in a way that presupposes that there are no contradictions, only "seeming" ones, is anything but objective.

    But as I say, whether there are or aren't differences between what the different authors of the Bible wrote isn't important to anyone who doesn't have that presupposition.

    They're J & P.

    Agreed. Of the variations I've looked into, Friedman's splitting looks to fit the evidence the best.

    No problem, I understand. I've kept my responses to a minimum and please don't feel you have to reply to them if you don't want to. I'm not trying to start an argument and I won't consider a lack of reply as a failing.
     
  8. So, I said I'd show the flood story split into its two sources in another post, so here it is.

    First of all, here's the story as it appears in the KJV (not the best translation, but it's not copyrighted so it's okay to quote from) but without the artificial chapter/verse structure that was imposed on it by later copyists; and I've changed the "thee"s, "thou"s, and "thy"s to "you"s and "yours"s to make it easier to read.

    What I've also done is bolded some of the text and italicised some of the text. You'll see why in a minute...

    --------------------

    And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And Yahweh said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the youghts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented Yahweh that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And Yahweh said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of Yahweh.

    These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make you an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt you make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and wiyout with pitch. And this is the fashion which you shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt you make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt you finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt you set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt you make it. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with you will I establish my covenant; and you shalt come into the ark, you, and your sons, and your wife, and your sons' wives with you. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt you bring into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto you, to keep them alive. And take you unto you of all food that is eaten, and you shalt gather it to you; and it shall be for food for you, and for them. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

    And Yahweh said unto Noah, Come you and all your house into the ark; for you have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of every clean beast you shalt take to you by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. And Noah did according unto all that Yahweh commanded him. And Noah was six hundred years old when the flood of waters was upon the earth. And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him. And Yahweh shut him in.

    And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man. All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark. And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

    And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged; The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped. And the rain from heaven was restrained; And the waters returned from off the earth continually. And after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

    And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made. And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more. And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth. And Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. And God spake unto Noah, saying, Go forth of the ark, you, and your wife, and your sons, and your sons' wives with you. Bring forth with you every living thing that is with you, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

    And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him: Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark. And Noah builded an altar unto Yahweh; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And Yahweh smelled a sweet savour; and Yahweh said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

    --------------------

    When you read the story as a whole, you'll notice that almost everything gets said twice. God looks down and sees wickedness twice. He tells Noah to make the ark twice. Noah enters the ark twice. And so on, through the story.

    Also there are places where the numbers don't match. When God tells Noah to bring in animals, he does it twice - but the first time he just asks for two of each animal and the second time he askes for seven of each "clean" animal and two of each "unclean" animal.

    The bolded and normal bits of the text mark differences in writing style. So what happens if we split the text up by these...
     
  9. Here's all the bolded text (I've taken off the bold to make it easier to read)...

    --------------------

    And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them, that the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose. And Yahweh said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh: yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years. There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown. And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the youghts of his heart was only evil continually. And it repented Yahweh that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart. And Yahweh said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them. But Noah found grace in the eyes of Yahweh.

    And Yahweh said unto Noah, Come you and all your house into the ark; for you have I seen righteous before me in this generation. Of every clean beast you shalt take to you by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female. Of fowls also of the air by sevens, the male and the female; to keep seed alive upon the face of all the earth. For yet seven days, and I will cause it to rain upon the earth forty days and forty nights; and every living substance that I have made will I destroy from off the face of the earth. And Noah did according unto all that Yahweh commanded him. And Noah went in, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him, into the ark, because of the waters of the flood. And it came to pass after seven days, that the waters of the flood were upon the earth. And the rain was upon the earth forty days and forty nights. And Yahweh shut him in.

    And the flood was forty days upon the earth; and the waters increased, and bare up the ark, and it was lift up above the earth. And the waters prevailed, and were increased greatly upon the earth; and the ark went upon the face of the waters. And the waters prevailed exceedingly upon the earth; and all the high hills, that were under the whole heaven, were covered. Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. All in whose nostrils was the breath of life, of all that was in the dry land, died. And every living substance was destroyed which was upon the face of the ground, both man, and cattle, and the creeping things, and the fowl of the heaven; and they were destroyed from the earth: and Noah only remained alive, and they that were with him in the ark.

    And the rain from heaven was restrained; And the waters returned from off the earth continually.

    And it came to pass at the end of forty days, that Noah opened the window of the ark which he had made. And he sent forth a dove from him, to see if the waters were abated from off the face of the ground; But the dove found no rest for the sole of her foot, and she returned unto him into the ark, for the waters were on the face of the whole earth: then he put forth his hand, and took her, and pulled her in unto him into the ark. And he stayed yet other seven days; and again he sent forth the dove out of the ark; And the dove came in to him in the evening; and, lo, in her mouth was an olive leaf pluckt off: so Noah knew that the waters were abated from off the earth. And he stayed yet other seven days; and sent forth the dove; which returned not again unto him any more. And Noah removed the covering of the ark, and looked, and, behold, the face of the ground was dry.

    And Noah builded an altar unto Yahweh; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar. And Yahweh smelled a sweet savour; and Yahweh said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done. While the earth remaineth, seedtime and harvest, and cold and heat, and summer and winter, and day and night shall not cease.

    --------------------

    And here's all the unbolded text...

    --------------------

    These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God. And Noah begat three sons, Shem, Ham, and Japheth. The earth also was corrupt before God, and the earth was filled with violence. And God looked upon the earth, and, behold, it was corrupt; for all flesh had corrupted his way upon the earth. And God said unto Noah, The end of all flesh is come before me; for the earth is filled with violence through them; and, behold, I will destroy them with the earth. Make you an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt you make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and wiyout with pitch. And this is the fashion which you shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits. A window shalt you make to the ark, and in a cubit shalt you finish it above; and the door of the ark shalt you set in the side thereof; with lower, second, and third stories shalt you make it. And, behold, I, even I, do bring a flood of waters upon the earth, to destroy all flesh, wherein is the breath of life, from under heaven; and every thing that is in the earth shall die. But with you will I establish my covenant; and you shalt come into the ark, you, and your sons, and your wife, and your sons' wives with you. And of every living thing of all flesh, two of every sort shalt you bring into the ark, to keep them alive with you; they shall be male and female. Of fowls after their kind, and of cattle after their kind, of every creeping thing of the earth after his kind, two of every sort shall come unto you, to keep them alive. And take you unto you of all food that is eaten, and you shalt gather it to you; and it shall be for food for you, and for them. Thus did Noah; according to all that God commanded him, so did he.

    Of clean beasts, and of beasts that are not clean, and of fowls, and of every thing that creepeth upon the earth, there went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah. In the six hundredth year of Noah's life, in the second month, the seventeenth day of the month, the same day were all the fountains of the great deep broken up, and the windows of heaven were opened. In the selfsame day entered Noah, and Shem, and Ham, and Japheth, the sons of Noah, and Noah's wife, and the three wives of his sons with them, into the ark; They, and every beast after his kind, and all the cattle after their kind, and every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth after his kind, and every fowl after his kind, every bird of every sort. And they went in unto Noah into the ark, two and two of all flesh, wherein is the breath of life. And they that went in, went in male and female of all flesh, as God had commanded him.

    And all flesh died that moved upon the earth, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of beast, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth, and every man. And the waters prevailed upon the earth an hundred and fifty days.

    And God remembered Noah, and every living thing, and all the cattle that was with him in the ark: and God made a wind to pass over the earth, and the waters assuaged; The fountains also of the deep and the windows of heaven were stopped. And after the end of the hundred and fifty days the waters were abated. And the ark rested in the seventh month, on the seventeenth day of the month, upon the mountains of Ararat. And the waters decreased continually until the tenth month: in the tenth month, on the first day of the month, were the tops of the mountains seen.

    And he sent forth a raven, which went forth to and fro, until the waters were dried up from off the earth. And it came to pass in the six hundredth and first year, in the first month, the first day of the month, the waters were dried up from off the earth. And in the second month, on the seven and twentieth day of the month, was the earth dried. And God spake unto Noah, saying, Go forth of the ark, you, and your wife, and your sons, and your sons' wives with you. Bring forth with you every living thing that is with you, of all flesh, both of fowl, and of cattle, and of every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth; that they may breed abundantly in the earth, and be fruitful, and multiply upon the earth.

    And Noah went forth, and his sons, and his wife, and his sons' wives with him: Every beast, every creeping thing, and every fowl, and whatsoever creepeth upon the earth, after their kinds, went forth out of the ark.

    --------------------

    (The one sentence that was in italics isn't kept in either of the above because it's actually the end of the previous section of Genesis - the Book of Generations.)

    As you can see, we now have two flood stories. Each of them is self-contained and complete, and they're clearly written in two distinct styles which are still easily recognisable even after translation into English. All the duplications have been resolved, in that each element in the story now only occurs once; and the disagreements about numbers (two of each clean animal or seven? a forty day flood or a hundred and fifty day flood?) have also vanished. What we plainly have are two separate flood stories - each of worked well on its own but which didn't quite agree on specifics - that have been spliced together into a single messy whole. The splicing doesn't always work, and it leaves us with duplications and contradictions in the story, but it does mean that anyone who knows one or the other story will see the bits they recognise. You won't get people saying "What do you mean he sent a raven? It's always been a dove in the story I grew up with!"
     
  10. Natedeezy

    Natedeezy New Member

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    I used to be obsessed with trying to prove them either right or wrong and have seen and read about probably 50-100 different accounts, and this one:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JL1oDuvQR08

    is one of the most convincing to me, for many reasons. One being the unexplainable phenomena that occurs, which goes against the idea of the dying brain or oxygen deprevation theory. And the other is the validity. The doctor isn't the one who had the event, the patient did. So that's one check point. It would require such an insane setup that the odds of it being fabricated are too insane for it to be faked. It was impossible for the person to know all those things, so the person couldn't have lied. The only person who could have would be the surgeon, but that means all the attending nurses and other surgeon would have had to have been in on it- pretty fantastical. OR the surgeon just made it up without anyone being in on it. But you'd have to wonder what does he have to gain vs lose? If anyone in the surgery found out, or if the patient found out, he'd be labeled a liar in his hospital and area. Potentially ruining his career...for what? A YouTube video? Doesn't make sense. There are so many layers of checking out the validity of this phenomena that, to me, is pretty much sooo incredibly leaning toward this being legit, that the odds it isn't are near impossible.
    There's also another one of a lady named Pam Reynolds that I'd probably list as #2 in most unexplainable and most likely legit.
     
  11. Natedeezy

    Natedeezy New Member

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  12. Bibliocentrist

    Bibliocentrist New Member

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    The only possible hope is if God/JC saves us, otherwise we have no hope.
     
  13. biointeger

    biointeger New Member

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    I love your heart, it's warm and squishy.
     
  14. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    This is what people tend to say, but not understanding something doesn't make it a contradiction. Could you name a contradiction or give a list if you prefer, and I'm sure that there are many people on this forum who will be able to reconcile the text for you.

    I've read quite a few different articles indicating "flood" activity on a vast scale in areas separated by half a planet, and ethnographers have catalogued "legends" of the flood in continents on both hemispheres. Most evidence of prehistoric events remains in the realm of theory. There is no absolute dating method for biological artifacts beyond a few thousand years (and non biological artifacts are typically dated by their association with biological artifacts. Our most accurate dating method for historical times (carbon dating) still delivers errors from recorded historical dates ranging from days to years. If accounts of the flood in the Americas and Asia exist, then they remain a historical evidence, and they do. There is a great deal of physical evidence of a flood that occurred on a world wide scale, but the problem with proof is that those who deny the world wide flood will insist that these catastrophic events occurred at different times in spite of the fact that dating them absolutely is impossible (prehistoric dating that goes beyond the range of carbon dating is all based upon theoretical models and those models are flawed or we wouldn't have found newly formed rock for the eruption of mount saint Helens that dated back some billions of years.)
     
  15. biointeger

    biointeger New Member

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    Why are you angry.
     
  16. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Have you ever read a newspaper article? The trained reporter first gives a brief synopsis of the story and then repeats the story with additional information, filling out the facts, and not necessarily in order. Moses wasn't a reporter, but there's no reason to believe that He wasn't responsible for the writing of the first 5 books of the Bible, though someone else obviously had to finish the book of Deuteronomy. We know that Jews going back as far as the earliest dead sea scrolls at least, took great care to duplicate their holy writings accurately. We wouldn't have some of the dead sea scrolls if the scribes hadn't made too many mistakes to use them, yet held them in too much reverence to simply destroy them.
     
  17. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    Possibly because there are billions of souls deceived by the vain philosophies of this world who will suffer for all eternity in unending torment, because they were unwilling to honor the commandment to believe the gospel.
     
  18. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    There is no "magical string of words" involved in biblical Christianity, though there are churches which act as though there were, however the purpose of our lives is not simply to believe that Jesus Christ is Lord or even that He willingly gave His life to a cruel death on a cross to pay the price of our sin, but God's purpose for us in Christ is to be renewed in His image and to glory in His presence with praise and worship, serving God by serving people. There's nothing shallow about the theology of the cross or more Christians would understand it and be able to explain it to non-Christians (or other newborns in Christ.) The fact that there is disagreement between various churches that call themselves Christian is a proof in itself that the vast majority of Christians remain biblically illiterate (which is born out by polling and questionnaires), and the fact that many Christians live no differently from other people in the world is an evidence that reading and contemplating the bible is a requirement for the renewing of a Christian's mind (thought processes) as is the claim of scripture. Even the process which we call sanctification, of living out the faith, is accomplished through the word of God, so its no surprise that Christians who don't read their bibles don't live sanctified lives either.
     
  19. michaelvpardo

    michaelvpardo Well-Known Member

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    If you can bear with me for a few minutes, I'll share some of my own testimony with you.
    I was raised as a Roman Catholic by my Catholic mother and "almost a catholic" father. I fell in love with Jesus' words and style very early on and one of the first (adult) books that I read as a child was the bible (a readers digest promotional gift of the King James version that my parents kept on the book shelf: I never actually saw either one of them read it. I wanted to know more about Jesus. The Old Testament was tough for a child of about 8 or 9 years of age and the New Testament really didn't make things simpler. Without understanding the history or culture of the biblical regions, much of it didn't make sense, but my purpose at that time was to learn more about Jesus and I was delighted to find Him in the book of Isaiah and in the psalms, but had no idea that these were written well before the birth of Christ. I don't recall if I started reading scripture before I started catechism classes, but I do recall that my mother took that readers digest bible away from me when I started calling the nuns and priests hypocrites (because of their behavior).
    I was confirmed at the age of 13 and since I was officially considered to have an "adult" status in the church, my first action was to quit attending the church (which my father supported to the disappointment of my mother.) My dad gave me a small copy of the New Testament and psalms which he had received while serving in the army in WWII, but I had to search around a bit to find another copy of the scriptures so that I could continue reading the entire book. The next bible that I found was a different translation and wherever I had seen LORD printed before, I was now seeing Jehovah. Being entirely ignorant of the history of the bible itself, as well as of biblical peoples, I was incredibly upset about this difference which engendered some doubt on my part.
    Among other things, I was very interested in science, probably because of the sci-fi shows on TV and in the movies, and read as much as I could understand about astronomy and rocketry, but my driving interest was always in knowing the truth. I pursued a "college bound" track in elementary school and after graduating bounced around a bit trying a number of community colleges and state universities until I finally graduated from SUNY @ Stony Brook with a B.S. and a major in biological sciences. My average wasn't that great, but my grades often reflected my doubts about evolution and the sloppy science surrounding it, and I managed to make the top 5% (national) in the advanced section of my GRE (graduate record examination). I realize this amounts to bragging, but I'm just trying to point out that my brain was more than adequate for the task.
    Because of my interest in the science fiction and horror genres, I also read about strange phenomena, witchcraft, world religions, all still in the pursuit of what is true. This lead me to read a book that was a translation of what are called the Tai Chi classics, back when I was still in high school. At that time the TV show "Kung Fu" was still on the air and I found the art fascinating (and also useful if you didn't want the snot beat out of you.)
    However, despite my interest in the martial arts, I considered myself a pacifist, still wanted to honor the teaching of Jesus Christ, and didn't take up the study of any martial art because of its violent nature (which is ironic since I used sports to take opportunity to hurt the school bullies that seemed to take pleasure in harassing me.)
    After graduating from college and a short career in a medical lab, this "pacifist" joined the US Air force (talk about being confused.)
    While in the USAF I sometimes spent my idle time reading the series of books by Carlos Castaneda about his hallucinatory experiences with a Yaqui Indian brujo which drew my interest because of my own covert usage of marijuana and the unusual experiences I'd had with strange phenomena. I started thinking of myself as a sorcerer (and all this time still going periodically to a modern translation of the bible to try to make sense of it.)
    While I might be inclined to go on about my entire life (what a long strange trip its been), lets just say that I worked a number of jobs that allowed me to travel around a bit in the continental US and in the process sustained a bad back injury (a compressed lower lumbar disc.) This happened just before the company that I was employed with decided to shut down our regional office and I found myself unemployed, without medical insurance, and with a severely painful back condition. I wasn't treated for my condition until I found another job with medical benefits and by that time some of the muscles in one of my legs had atrophied and shrunk so that I no longer had full use of the leg. I sought chiropractic treatment, but since my progress was unbearably slow I decided to take a class in Tai Chi offered at a local community college, because the practice carries the claim that it is beneficial to health and rejuvenation. Within a week my Chiropractor noticed a marked difference in my condition for the better, so encouraged by this I delved into the study of Tai Chi with vigor.
    At the time I was living in Northern New Jersey, but my job had me travelling to a lot of clients in Monmouth county and areas further south. Since I was still single and wanted to have more opportunity to meet members of the opposite sex, I decided to move down to the "Jersey shore" and took up residence in an apartment in Red bank. I discovered fairly quickly that there was a martial arts school a short walk down the block from my apartment and although the owner taught a Korean martial art, he offered a class in Tai Chi Chuan taught by a visiting instructor, who turned out to be the same instructor that taught the college class up in north Jersey (coincidence?) I just had to continue classes and given the opportunity to attend classes in exchange for some labor at the school, I put myself into the study with all my spare time.
    Now, if you're unfamiliar with Tai Chi, it is what the Chinese refer to as an internal martial art, very esoteric, and a discipline which includes types of meditation and practice designed to develop "spiritual" energies. I studied with my first teacher for 3 years until the man succumbed to the brain tumors that had been attacking him from about the time that I first met him. I gained enough proficiency for that teacher to use me as a "teachers aid," helping the other students perform correctly, and in the process regained the full use of my leg (though I do have some dead nerves in it which are beginning to become troubling with my age and reduced hormonal production.) I learned how to manipulate these "spiritual" energies not only in my own body, but could even use them to affect other people (this would be called mobilizing my "chi" to move another person's "chi".)
    The practice convinced me of a "spiritual" reality that can't be explained by our current sciences (though they can be explained by traditional Chinese medicine and chi kung theory.)
    All this time, I never gave up my allegiance to the teachings of Jesus Christ (I even wore a small cross to my Tai Chi classes), but now I was stuck in a genuine quandary. I believed in a spiritual world beyond our sciences' ability to explain and this certainly demanded a god of some sort. I always believed that there must be a god, but having read scripture for many years, and having been confused by my reading of it for many years, I was still unsure of who God is.
    My Tai Chi instructor taught from a Taoist perspective (though he was raised with a Christian background) because his instructor was a Taoist (I also studied with him for about a year.) The Taoist philosophy fits well with the "theory" behind the art and it would be hard for me to understand the performance of the art without the Taoist background, but I found that no amount of practice, study, or meditation really had any affect upon the person that I am. The Chinese view of spirituality is very different from that of western thinkers (who haven't studied oriental philosophies) and one instructor made the comment in a seminar that "Hitler was a very spiritual man" meaning that in his conceptual understanding of spirituality, evil or good behavior is irrelevant. In the events of my personal life, I found that far from becoming some spiritual eastern monk-like pacifist, I was actually becoming more arrogant, more dangerous, and most likely headed for a confrontation that would land me in jail or in a grave.
    During this same period of time, I ended up changing jobs again and landed in the place where I'm still working, 23 years later. At the shop where I now work, I met a few born again believers in Jesus Christ who had no problem sharing their belief with me to the extent that I was interested. As I worked at a bench that was in close proximity to one of these men, I would often have discussions with him about the scriptures and all the apparent "contradictions" that I perceived while reading them. My coworker, friend, and now brother in Christ patiently answered every question that I ever asked him to my satisfaction (though he later admitted that he hadn't known that he could give such answers, but that they just came to him.) I finally came to the conclusion that the scripture (with the exception of some readily explainable copy errors) represents an entirely self sufficient system of thought and in perfect agreement with itself, but this didn't prove that it was true. However, when it comes to analyzing and predicting human behavior, my observation has always been that the scripture has held true.
    Now, during this time I met a woman who was married and quite attractive (I first saw her from my kitchen window, as she was sunbathing out by the apartment parking lot . I met her on another occasion when she came to me as I was working on my car to see if I needed a cleaning person to clean my apartment. We got familiar fast. As she didn't seem to be too happy in her marriage and had been physically abused by her husband on at least one occasion, in my arrogance I decided that it was okay to have an affair with her and with the intent of breaking up her marriage and making her my own. This was without a doubt the most precarious time in my life. I was in love with a woman who's husband was a "biker" and who I know owned a handgun and I was doing what I knew to be wrong even though I justified myself by believing that I was somehow a better man than this guy who was probably more civil and more considerate than I ever was. The Lord sovereignly put me into a situation in which I at once knew my own guilt and was totally unequipped to handle and I became somewhat desperate for a way out of imminent danger. I had no desire to hurt anyone, but I was prepared to do so to protect my future wife, and it nearly came to that on one occasion.
    Trying to put some distance between me and the poor soul that I had so grievously offended, I went looking for a new apartment that I could "escape" to with my new love, and on this one occasion I encountered a street evangelist who preached the gospel to me and enjoined me to pray with him for salvation, which I did out of desperation. At first, I didn't believe that this would really help as I didn't understand that gospel message.
    I spoke to one of my Christian friends at work, the same one that had been faithful to answer my questions regularly, and explained what happened on my apartment hunting excursion and questioned him about the gospel message that I'd heard and what you might call the dynamics of the gospel.
    We talked about the gospel for the rest of the working day and when we were in the company parking lot preparing to go home, my brother and friend asked me if I believed and wanted to receive Christ. I was convinced. Everything was as it should be, the world seemed to pause while I took hold of the hands of my friend in a parking lot just down the block from the Holland tunnel in the middle of the afternoon (approximately 3:30 PM) on a week day, and with no other soul in sight, to pray for the Lord to give me His Holy Spirit to be my teacher and guide and in submission to Him to do His will. As we finished this prayer I felt this jolt, all this internal energy that I'd learned to manipulate by my Tai Chi practice, moved powerfully and forcefully through my body to the top of my head ( a major point in the chi circulation) and straight out through the top. I was startled by what happened as it was completely unexpected, but in retrospect I realized that the "energies" that I'd been manipulating had actually been manipulating me and leading me on a path to destruction.
    Immediately following that experience I began reading through the bible repeatedly for about 3 years and each time I read through it, I was able to understand more of the things that confused me as a child.
    What I had done was an awful sin, but it drove me to seek salvation, and though I regret the hurt I caused to my wife's ex husband, I no longer feel the weight of the guilt of that sin or of any sin for that matter, because the Lord has taken it from me and he bore it at the cross nearly 2000 years before I was born.
    I'm not perfect, nor is anyone perfected while in these bodies of flesh, but I'm not the man that I was. I can still be selfish, I can still get angry, I can still act foolish, but my love of the Lord that saved me restrains me. He convicts me of the wrong that I do and leads me to repentance. He gives me understanding of His word and His will. He prompts me to do "good deeds" for people when opportunity presents itself in "divine appointments" and whether I succeed or fail, He always forgives me when I acknowledge my wrong and strengthens me in the doing of what is right.
    Christianity isn't something that you try on to see if it fits. Being born again of God's Spirit changes you, but life doesn't become easier. If anything, life becomes more "trying" in many ways, because part of the process of growing to maturity in Christ is learning to trust the Lord in every situation, regardless of how bad or hopeless it may seem. The creator of the universe doesn't fail, doesn't slumber, and doesn't disregard the suffering of His children. In the last 20 years I've seen some dark times, what we refer to as valleys, but I've also seen heights and wonders and through it all I've known God's grace in forgiveness and mercy and blessing.
    If you don't believe, but want to believe then all you need do is pray and ask Him for faith to believe. If you're reading scripture, He can use that to build your faith, and finding the truth is never a waste of time.
     
  20. As I said to Natedeezy, why bother?

    The idea that the Bible is supposed to be read as some kind of inerrant history text is a recent development only adhered to by a minority of Christians around the world (although since it's concentrated in the US then people there who subscribe to that reading often assume it's the "default" reading for everyone else too).

    I've no doubt that if I posted examples of where the Bible differs due to being written by different people for different reasons you'll be able to come up with some contrived scenario that "reconciles" those parts. And that does no-one any good; unless that it allows you to butress your faith against creeping doubt, I guess. Just because you'll be able to come up with a contrived scenario to force two different parts of the Bible that were never intended to match each other do so that doesn't make that scenario true or even likely, and doesn't make your inerrantist reading any less of a recent minority reading than it was before.

    Yeah. I've heard all your Creationist talking points before. It's fine if you want to repeat them like a mantra to shore up your beliefs in a young Earth, but don't expect anyone not already wedded to your minority view to believe them.

    Your newspaper example bears no resemblence to what I showed, and no serious (i.e. not a-priori devoted to inerrantism for religious reasons) Biblical scholar insists that Moses wrote the Torah. Again you're simply taking your narrow doctrinal view and stating it as if it were the truth.

    And what do "the Jews" have to do with anything? Most of the Torah was written before Judaism got started. It was only after it was compiled (and edited) that the Canaanite religion of the Hebrews evolved into Judaism as we know it.

    Although you are partially correct about people not wanting to destroy their holy writings. That's almost certainly why they were combined and edited in the way they were. When it became clear that the older writings were no longer valid and useful they couldn't just be thrown away - so instead they were combined and new interpolations were added to change their meaning. The classic example of this, of course, being how the "God's unconditional promise" of an eternal Israel looked decidedly ridiculous after Israel fell to first Egypt and then Babylon so sentences were added to the texts here and there to to make the promise conditional instead. The text was "clarified" to say that only the kingship of the line of David would endure unconditionally, but the country was conquered and its people led into slavery because they were being punished. Ironically, that's where the whole Messiah belief came from, which of course the anonymous authors of two of the Gospels latched on to and each gave their own version of how Jesus was totally a direct male-line descendent of David, honest!

    Which brings us full circle back to the contrived scenarios to "reconcile" such differences as the two different genealogies of Jesus. Here the inerrantists are particularly amusing as they tie themselves in texual knots because not only do they have to try to contrive a scenario for why the two direct male-line genealogies differ so much while both being 100% true and without error, they also have to project their trinitarian theology back into the text and somehow explain how Jesus can be descended from David through Joseph if (by their theology) Joseph wasn't even Jesus' father! Not a problem for the anonymous writers of the two Gospels, of course, because they didn't share the theology and doctrine of the modern day inerrantists.
     
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