The Two Witnesses

[martinlawrencescott]

[sup]Revelation 11:3[/sup] And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will be clothed in burlap and will prophesy during those 1,260 days.”

Anyone have an opinion (or conviction if you have one) about who these two witnesses will be? One of my teachers believes it will be Moses and Elijah. That would make sense, since they were involved in a lot of the things the two witnesses will do.

My personal opinion is that it will be Enoch and Elijah, since they are the only two men recorded whom never experienced physical death, and it made sense to me that that would be a requirement to share in Christ's physical death in order to share in His resurrection. It would make sense if God saved these two righteous individuals for a specific mission he appointed just for this time.

Anyone have any other thoughts about it, or whether someone has a metaphorical viewpoint/whatever, or if it could be two random guys we never heard about.

 

[tomwebster]

[sup]Revelation 11:3[/sup] And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will be clothed in burlap and will prophesy during those 1,260 days.”

...

Martin, read Rev 11:3 in the Greek, The words “during those” are not there. KJV has: Rev 11:3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

Everyone seems to assume “a thousand two hundred and threescore days” is talking about a period of time when it’s not. “A thousand two hundred and threescore days,” is the title of a message for the end days.

Are they here now?

 

[martinlawrencescott]

Thanks for your response.

And what do you think of the second point? For the sake of discussion and not concerning end time prophecy.

"since they are the only two men recorded whom never experienced physical death, and it made sense to me that that would be a requirement to share in Christ's physical death in order to share in His resurrection."

Do you think everyone needs to experience physical death in order to be identified with Christ? Will Enoch and Elijah need to experience death to be partakers in resurrection?

 

[Mighty Bear]

The two witnesses plus the Lord of the earth makes them three.

Daniel 7:24 ESV As for the ten horns, out of this kingdom ten kings shall arise, and another shall arise after them; he shall be different from the former ones, and shall put down three kings.

Isaiah 6:3 ESV And one called to another and said: "Holy, holy, holy is the LORD of hosts; the whole earth is full of his glory!"


But there is a fourth which looks like a son of the gods.

Daniel 3:24 ESV Then King Nebuchadnezzar was astonished and rose up in haste. He declared to his counselors, "Did we not cast three men bound into the fire?" They answered and said to the king, "True, O king."

Daniel 3:25 ESV He answered and said, "But I see four men unbound, walking in the midst of the fire, and they are not hurt; and the appearance of the fourth is like a son of the gods."

Acts 13:36 ESV For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption,

Acts 13:37 ESV but he whom God raised up did not see corruption.


Exodus 20:5 ESV You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me,

 

[Tehilah BaAretz]

I'd like to vote that it will be two guys. I'm looking for a partner. Pay is lousy, work conditions are worse and you will end up getting killed. Please send your CV and a substantial (non-refundable) donation.

 

[Sugarhitman]

The Two Witnesses are killed by the Beast...the Beast makes war against the "Mighty and Holy People"...Mystery Babylon is filled with the blood of the Saints and Prophets. I believe the Two Witnesses are symbolic of a collective....the Prophets and the Saints of Jesus Christ..namely the Israeli Church.



Moses died so therefore "It is appointed men to die once,after this the Judgement." So I seriously doubt Moses will be returning to die again.

 

[tomwebster]

Thanks for your response.

And what do you think of the second point? For the sake of discussion and not concerning end time prophecy.

"since they are the only two men recorded whom never experienced physical death, and it made sense to me that that would be a requirement to share in Christ's physical death in order to share in His resurrection."

Do you think everyone needs to experience physical death in order to be identified with Christ? Will Enoch and Elijah need to experience death to be partakers in resurrection?

How long does a flesh body last, martin? No more than one day, or one thousand years, right. How long has it been for Enoch and Elijah's flesh bodies? Are those bodies alive yet? Neither one of those men will return physically.

 

[martinlawrencescott]

I don't know what happened to their flesh bodies, I thought they never died in the flesh. I guess if they haven't they would be older than Methuselah, then again if they somehow took their physical bodies into heaven, and the whole time thing... or were their bodies glorified upon their ascent in order to enter heaven, but isn't Jesus supposed to be the first, I am mentally trying to process this as I type, ow.

 

[tomwebster]

I don't know what happened to their flesh bodies, I thought they never died in the flesh. I guess if they haven't they would be older than Methuselah, then again if they somehow took their physical bodies into heaven, and the whole time thing... or were their bodies glorified upon their ascent in order to enter heaven, but isn't Jesus supposed to be the first, I am mentally trying to process this as I type, ow.

There bodies were change back to their spiritual body's before they left because: 1Co 15:50 " Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption."

 

[veteran]

It would seem to point to Enoch and Elijah, since they did not die. And remember this...

Heb 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(KJV)

How could that not also apply to Enoch and Elijah, since they were born in the flesh also? I guess one could raise the argument about the saints still alive on earth being changed when Christ comes, which would mean they don't suffer death either.

Best to say we can't really know, not until the two witnesses appear in Jerusalem.


Now the monkey wrench...

Rev 11:3-4
3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus said in the last verse of Rev.1 that the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches.

So the two witnesses examples is actually pointing to the idea of two groups that witness, one with two actual witnesses that are killed in Jerusalem and left laying the street for three and one half days, and the other group representing two of the seven Churches (candlesticks).

Most likely, those two Churches are represented by Smyrna and Philadelphia, the two our Lord Jesus had no rebuke for.

Wonder what the other five symbolic Churches will be doing in that time?

 

[[email protected]]

And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will be clothed in burlap and will prophesy during those 1,260 days.

Read on.

The tone of the passage is frightening.
These two men will be able to cause all sorts of mischief and will be universally hated.
So much so that their death will initiate a global celebration complete with gift exchange.

While meditating on this situation the question arose in my mind as to what I would do if they knocked on my front door and asked for help.

My first reaction was to let them in. After I thought about it for a while, though I began to ask myself if that was such a good idea after all.
You see, these men will be vilified as the very messengers of the devil, despite any call to repentance or Godly action.
I imagine that there will be quite a lot of talk about them around the supper table every night. None of it good, either.

So why would God send these guys to stir up the water, so to speak? Why not a pair of kind hearted nuns or something?

 

[tomwebster]

It would seem to point to Enoch and Elijah, since they did not die. And remember this...

Heb 9:27
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
(KJV)

How could that not also apply to Enoch and Elijah, since they were born in the flesh also? I guess one could raise the argument about the saints still alive on earth being changed when Christ comes, which would mean they don't suffer death either.

Best to say we can't really know, not until the two witnesses appear in Jerusalem.


Now the monkey wrench...

Rev 11:3-4
3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(KJV)

Our Lord Jesus said in the last verse of Rev.1 that the seven candlesticks are the seven Churches.

So the two witnesses examples is actually pointing to the idea of two groups that witness, one with two actual witnesses that are killed in Jerusalem and left laying the street for three and one half days, and the other group representing two of the seven Churches (candlesticks).

Most likely, those two Churches are represented by Smyrna and Philadelphia, the two our Lord Jesus had no rebuke for.

Wonder what the other five symbolic Churches will be doing in that time?

vet, I do not want to argue with you about this, I'm just pointing out several Scripture texts for you to consider.

So you think their flesh bodies have outlasted God's decree in the garden?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And certainly their flesh bodies aren't in heaven: 1Co 15:50 " Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." So where do you think their flesh bodies were being stored?

 

[Sugarhitman]

vet, I do not want to argue with you about this, I'm just pointing out several Scripture texts for you to consider.

So you think their flesh bodies have outlasted God's decree in the garden?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And certainly their flesh bodies aren't in heaven: 1Co 15:50 " Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." So where do you think their flesh bodies were being stored?

Good point. Flesh and blood does not enter Heaven. The Candle Sticks could by symbols of the Church while the Olive Tree is a symbol for Israel. Revelation 11 focuses on believers inside Israel. Also noticed this:

O God, the nations have come into Your inheritance;
Your holy temple they have defiled;
They have laid Jerusalem in heaps.
[sup]2[/sup] The dead bodies of Your servants
They have given as food for the birds of the heavens,
The flesh of Your saints to the beasts of the earth.
[sup]3[/sup] Their blood they have shed like water all around Jerusalem,
And there was no one to bury them.

Psalm 79


That sounds almost exactly what is written in Rev. 11:

for it has been given to the Gentiles. And they will tread the holy city underfoot for forty-two months...And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.

Now the celebration over the deaths of the Witnesses in Rev. 11 seems to correspond to Psalm 79:

We have become a reproach to our neighbors,
A scorn and derision to those who are around us.... Why should the nations say,
“Where is their God?”

When Israel is temporarily cast down, the world will celebrate. I can see the Islamic nations attributing this victory to Allah, and the Beast, anti-Israel/Christian forces celebrating because to them this will prove that the God of Israel doesnt exist or is weak..hence:

“Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

Rev. 13




And then in the OT:

Behold, the day of the LORD is coming,
And your spoil will be divided in your midst.
[sup]2[/sup] For I will gather all the nations to battle against Jerusalem;
The city shall be taken,
The houses rifled,
And the women ravished.
Half of the city shall go into captivity,
But the remnant of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
[sup]3[/sup] Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
[sup]4[/sup] And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east....the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints with You.

Zech. 14




and:

For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
[sup]2[/sup] I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

Joel 3



Notice that this occurs after the captives are brought back, i.e. a restoration of Israel. And for the first time in history all nations have divided the land of Judah and Jerusalem. Jesus was quite clear about the end times concerning Israel:

“But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near. [sup]21[/sup] Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her. [sup]22[/sup] For these are the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.

Luke 21.


Clearly showing that this was not about AD. 70 with the "that all things which are written [in the Prophets] may be fulfilled."



The Two Witnesses are the Israeli Saints, and to destroy them the Beast and the world will persecute Israel..Jesus made it clear that all Jews in Israel will be persecuted when the Beast arrives:

But woe to those who are pregnant and to those who are nursing babies in those days! For there will be great distress in the land and wrath upon this people [the Israelis]. [sup]24[/sup] And they will fall by the edge of the sword, and be led away captive into all nations.

Luke 21



Now we know the real reason behind the plan to divide Israeli land with a people dedicated to their destruction. Now we understand why governments all over the world are funding the "moderate" PLO, and the Anti-Israel NGOs...they are preparing the Israelis for another Holocaust. And when Satan tempoarily defeat the Angelic forces in heaven (Michael and his angels), this will pave the way for the Beast and his followers (most of the world) to defeat Israel and all the Christian believers in the world for 3 1/2 years. For 3 1/2 years the bodies of the Saints will be falling in the streets of Jerusalem, and the world will gloat over them...and then:

Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken. [sup]30[/sup] Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. [sup]31[/sup] And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

Then the LORD will go forth
And fight against those nations,
As He fights in the day of battle.
[sup]4[/sup] And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives,
Which faces Jerusalem on the east....Thus the LORD my God will come,
And all the saints [Angels] with You.[sup][a][/sup]
[sup]6[/sup] It shall come to pass in that day
That there will be no light;
The lights will diminish....Judah [Israel] also will fight at Jerusalem.
And the wealth of all the surrounding nations
Shall be gathered together...And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

Zech. 14



Sorry about the long post.

 

[tomwebster]

...


And when Satan tempoarily defeat the Angelic forces in heaven (Michael and his angels),

...

What ever gave you the idea the Satan could defeat Michael and his angels? It's never happened and it never will happen.

 

[veteran]

vet, I do not want to argue with you about this, I'm just pointing out several Scripture texts for you to consider.

So you think their flesh bodies have outlasted God's decree in the garden?
Gen 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

And certainly their flesh bodies aren't in heaven: 1Co 15:50 " Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption." So where do you think their flesh bodies were being stored?

I agree, that points to a problem with thinking it might be Enoch and Elijah. Also, Elijah later appeared on the mount of transfiguration with Moses, which also supports what you're saying.

And also, if John the Baptist had been accepted, he would have fulfilled the Malachi prophecy where God said He would send Elijah before the day of The LORD. Since our Lord Jesus said John would have fulfilled that role of Elijah, then the two witnesses certainly can point to others instead of Elijah and Enoch, i.e., someone else coming in the prophetic role of Elijah.

 

[avoice]

Zechariah 4:11

Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees--at the right of the lampstand and at its left?"

12 And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"

13 Then he answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."

14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth." .

Were also told If any man attempts to hurt them before their ministry is up, "...fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies" . Note how similar this is to the power given to Elijah (II Kings 1:9-15).
They also have power over the rainfall, to produce drought and famine as did Elijah (Luke 4:25; I Kings 17:1-7), and to smite the earth with plagues (Rev. 11:6)

My thought then is if ...these two wittness's were churchs we would have a whole bunch of people running around doing these things ....and I just dont think that makes any sense ...
So I'll need to go thats its two people as opposed to churches

The fact they have not tasted death .. Ill have go with vetrans last remarks.... if John could have served as Elijah than anyone of Gods choseing could do the same.

 

[veteran]

Zechariah 4:11

Then I answered and said to him, "What are these two olive trees--at the right of the lampstand and at its left?"

12 And I further answered and said to him, "What are these two olive branches that drip into the receptacles of the two gold pipes from which the golden oil drains?"

13 Then he answered me and said, "Do you not know what these are?" And I said, "No, my lord."

14 So he said, "These are the two anointed ones, who stand beside the Lord of the whole earth." .

Were also told If any man attempts to hurt them before their ministry is up, "...fire proceeds out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies" . Note how similar this is to the power given to Elijah (II Kings 1:9-15).
They also have power over the rainfall, to produce drought and famine as did Elijah (Luke 4:25; I Kings 17:1-7), and to smite the earth with plagues (Rev. 11:6)

My thought then is if ...these two wittness's were churchs we would have a whole bunch of people running around doing these things ....and I just dont think that makes any sense ...
So I'll need to go thats its two people as opposed to churches

The fact they have not tasted death .. Ill have go with vetrans last remarks.... if John could have served as Elijah than anyone of Gods choseing could do the same.

Good point about churches being involved, for I believe there will be two literal witnesses sent to Jerusalem in the prophetic ministry of Elijah also, however...


Mark 13:11
11 But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost.
(KJV)


Rev 1:20
20 The mystery of the seven stars which thou sawest in My right hand, and the seven golden candlesticks. The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches.
(KJV)

Rev 11:4
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
(KJV)


Put all that together, and it's pointing to two symbolic Churches (candlesticks) that will have a ministry along with God's two witnesses He will send to Jerusalem.

Does Mark 13:11 point to those Church's ministry as doing the exact same things as God's two witnesses, like stopping rain literally, and causing plagues, etc.? No. Only the idea of their being delivered up to give a Testimony for Christ Jesus by The Holy Spirit is mentioned. And that indeed is most likely what the fire out of their MOUTHS is really about.

It's connected to the endtime prophecy in the Book of Joel which Peter quoted on Pentecost (Acts 2). When Peter said, "This is that..." about the Book of Joel, he was saying the cloven tongue of Pentecost was only an 'example' for the Joel prophecy.

How many have actually gone back to Joel 2 and read where Peter was quoting from in Acts 2?

Joel 2:28-32
28 And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out My spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions:
29 And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out My spirit.
30 And I will shew wonders in the heavens and in the earth, blood, and fire, and pillars of smoke.
31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and the terrible day of the LORD come.
32 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the LORD shall be delivered: for in mount Zion and in Jerusalem shall be deliverance, as the LORD hath said, and in the remnant whom the LORD shall call.
(KJV)

Those events underlined are part of that Joel 2 prophecy of God pouring out His Spirit upon His servants in the last days. Note how it is associated with signs of the very end of this present world, not just in Peter's days. Mark 13:11 is a reference to it, and in Mark 13 our Lord Jesus was giving us the 7 signs of the end only meant for the generation of His return.

 

[Sugarhitman]

What ever gave you the idea the Satan could defeat Michael and his angels? It's never happened and it never will happen.

And out of one of them came a little horn which grew exceedingly great toward the south, toward the east, and toward the Glorious Land. [sup]10[/sup] And it grew up to the host of heaven; and it cast down some of the host and some of the stars to the ground, and trampled them. [sup]11[/sup] He even exalted himself as high as the Prince of the host [Micheal?]; and by him [The Horn] the daily sacrifices were taken away, and the place of His sanctuary was cast down. [sup]12[/sup] Because of transgression, an army was given over to the horn to oppose the daily sacrifices; and he cast truth down to the ground. He did all this and prospered.

Dan. 8


How can the Beast cast down the Sanctuary, and oppose the Daily Sacrifices in heaven without first defeating the Heavenly armies? And this is a clear picture of war in heaven...and he is seen here winning.

Then I heard a holy one speaking; and another holy one said to that certain one who was speaking, “How long will the vision be, concerning the daily sacrifices and the transgression of desolation, the giving of both the sanctuary and the [Angelic] host to be trampled underfoot?”
[sup]14[/sup] And he said to me, “For two thousand three hundred days;[sup][a][/sup] then the sanctuary shall be cleansed.”

Yes, the Beast and his armies will succeed against the Angelic Hosts for a short period...and it will be the worst time for all humanity (especially for Israel) because we will have little protection.

 

[veteran]

Dan. 8


How can the Beast cast down the Sanctuary, and oppose the Daily Sacrifices in heaven without first defeating the Heavenly armies? And this is a clear picture of war in heaven...and he is seen here winning.

Yes, the Beast and his armies will succeed against the Angelic Hosts for a short period...and it will be the worst time for all humanity (especially for Israel) because we will have little protection.

Problem is, Daniel was speaking of the sanctuary on earth (the temple in Jerusalem), and its host on earth, not the Heavenly.

 

[tomwebster]

...
Yes, the Beast and his armies will succeed against the Angelic Hosts for a short period...and it will be the worst time for all humanity (especially for Israel) because we will have little protection.

Absolutely not, Michael and his angels have never been defeated by Satan and will never be defeated by Satan and his army, never, never, never. Not for one second.