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The Watchtower Society At Our Doors

Discussion in 'Christian Newbies' started by Webers_Home, Sep 22, 2018.

  1. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    For a home-spun religion whose origin is relatively recent, the Watchtower
    Society has done pretty well for itself. Beginning with one man shortly after
    the American Civil War, it currently numbers approximately 8.2 million
    followers spread out in approximately 118,000 congregations worldwide.

    My first encounter with a Watchtower Society missionary (a.k.a. Jehovah's
    Witness) occurred in 1969. At the time I was young and inexperienced; and
    thus assumed that the hewer of wood, and hauler of water coming down my
    dad's driveway was a typical Christian.

    But when I talked this over with an elder; he became alarmed; and urged
    me to read a little book titled "30 Years A Watchtower Slave" by William J.
    Schnell; whom the Society at one time demonized as an agent of Satan. I
    would not be surprised if it still does.

    After getting my eyes opened by Mr. Schnell's book, I was afterwards
    steered towards another book titled "Kingdom Of The Cults" by Walter
    Martin. No doubt the Society demonizes Mr. Martin too.

    Around late 1980, my wife and I attended a series of lectures sponsored by
    a local church titled "How To Witness To Jehovah's Witnesses". The speaker
    (call him Pete) was an ex Witness who had been in the Watchtower Society
    system for near three decades and was an area manager before terminating
    his association with the Society; so he knew the twists and turns of its
    doctrines pretty good.

    Later on, I read a book titled "Why I Left The Jehovah's Witnesses" by Ted
    Dencher. I also read and studied the Society's little brown book titled
    "Reasoning From The Scriptures".

    From all that vetting, study, and training I quickly discovered that although
    the Watchtower Society uses many of classical Christianity's standard terms
    and phrases, those terms and phrases mean something entirely different in
    the Witness mind than what you'd expect because the Society has re-defined
    the meanings of those terminologies.

    So your first challenge in coping with the Watchtower Society is to scale the
    language barrier. That by itself is an Herculean task because you'll not only
    be up against a tangle of semantics, but also a Jumanji of twisted scriptures,
    double speak, humanistic reasoning, rationalizing, and clever sophistry.
    _
     
  2. Mayflower

    Mayflower Well-Known Member

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    Nancy likes this.
  3. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    I was thinking the same thing...just did not know how to tag him for the OP...
     
  4. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    @Mister Michael
    Just in case you are interested. Questions should be addressed to the writer of the OP.

     
  5. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    I am no fan of general JW
    doctrines or culture, a fact that I've made quite clear on this forum. I'm a advocate for letting people explain their own beliefs, and hence visit many other churches. I've told how my visits to JW services and talking with their missionaries ended disastrously. Like I said, I am not a fan.

    That being said, Martin's and Schnell's books are extremely inaccurate junk. I would not recommend that miseducation to anyone.


    NO.

    The first challenge of evangelizing anyone is showing them that you honestly care about them. You must first establish that you care, else even preaching with the tongue of angels is just clanking brass.
     
  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    It would appear that all the cults flourish while there is tremendous resistance to the truth and the true Gospel. Which again confirms that Satan is indeed "the god of this world".
     
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  7. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Raymond Victor Franz was a member of the Governing Body of Jehovah's
    Witnesses from October 20, 1971 until his removal on May 22, 1980, and
    served at the organization's world headquarters for fifteen years, from 1965
    until 1980.

    Mr. Franz resigned, and stated that the request for his resignation, and his
    subsequent dis-fellowshipping, resulted from allegations of apostasy.

    Following his departure, Mr. Franz wrote two books relating his personal
    experiences with the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, and his views on
    Jehovah's Witness teachings.

    One of his books is called "Crisis Of Conscience". It's a bit expensive in print
    form, but as of today's date could be heard audibly for free on YouTube
    and/or as a free pdf download; and is somewhat reviewed on Wikipedia.

    Mr. Franz's book is a helpful aid to people wondering if they made the right
    decision leaving the Society's fold. It's also helpful for people thinking about
    becoming a Jehovah's Witness but not too sure whether they'd be making a
    really big, life-changing mistake.
    _
     
  8. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    If you want to teach someone the Truth, focus on showing that Truth/love yourself and teaching Truth.
    "Exposing" another belief system doesn't teach Truth, rather it just turns people against that "exposed" belief system and most commonly in atheists.
     
  9. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    Should someone decide to go head to head with Watchtower Society
    missionaries, here's some useful tips passed on by Pete, the ex Jehovah's
    Witness mentioned in post No.1

    1• Do not let these people get personal with you. You must never ever
    assume they are your friends because first and foremost, these people are
    predatory recruiters. Their primary interest is in making you a life-long slave
    to the Watchtower Society.

    2• Never accept their literature. They will want to come back later and
    discuss it with you; thus taking control of the meeting.

    3• Don't give them a chance to launch into their spiel, but immediately begin
    introducing your own questions; thus denying them control of the
    conversation.

    4• Do not debate. You're not a salesman pushing a product, nor a recruiter,
    nor a candidate running for an elected office: you're not out to win
    anything-- you're a herald; viz: a messenger; that's all. The goal is to show
    missionaries that the Society's isn't the only expert opinion out there. In
    other words: the Watchtower Society's interpretations aren't the only option;
    nor are theirs eo ipso the right interpretations just because the Governing
    Body says so.

    5• Do not get embroiled in trivial issues like birthdays, Easter, Christmas,
    Christmas trees, blood transfusions, the design of the wooden device upon
    which Christ was crucified, saluting the flag, service in the military, and that
    sort of thing. There are much bigger fish to fry than those.

    6• Force them to listen and pay attention to what you say even if you have
    to repeat yourself to do it, or clap your hands, snap your fingers, or raise
    your voice. Do not let them digress, change the subject, go off on a tangent,
    nor get distracted and/or turn their attention elsewhere while you're
    speaking. If they start digging through their bags, shuffling papers, or
    looking up a reference; call them on it because that is a very rude thing to
    do when people are speaking.

    7• Do not permit them to interrupt you and/or talk out of turn. Politely, but
    firmly, insist that they remain silent until you are finished speaking.

    8• Do not permit them to evade and/or circumvent difficult questions. They
    sometimes say that they will have to confer with someone more
    knowledgeable. When they do that, the meeting is over. Thank them politely
    for their time and then ask them to leave and come back when they have
    the information. Do not let them stay and start a new topic of their own.

    9• Never react and/or respond to ad hominems, which can be defined as a
    logical fallacy in which an argument is rebutted by attacking the character,
    motive, or other attribute of the person making the argument, or persons
    associated with the argument, rather than attacking the substance of the
    argument itself.

    10• It's very important to show Witnesses the Bible not in ways they've
    already seen, but in ways they've never imagined.

    It is my personal opinion that it's not a good idea to attempt to evangelize a
    Watchtower missionary as I can just about guarantee that most experienced
    JWs are better at evangelizing you than you are them. If you think that your
    own gospel message is some sort of silver bullet; you'll find out right quick
    that their silver bullets are bigger than yours.
    _
     
  10. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    With all due respect, if you want to have the JW missionaries walk away thinking you don't remotely know Christ, that is a great recipe to follow: de-humanize them, dominate the conversation, obviously refuse to listen them, and attempt to force them to listen to you.

    If you want to share Christ with them, follow Paul's guidance in 1 Corinthians 13:1.
     
    Last edited: Sep 22, 2018
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  11. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    THE WORD

    The Watchtower Society will never accept classical Christianity's teaching
    that Jesus Christ is Yhvh incognito simply because the Society's undying
    premise is that it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and a
    human being simultaneously.

    According to the premise: Yhvh's spirit existence would have to be
    terminated before He could become a human existence; and I can easily
    guarantee that nobody is ever going to convince the Society otherwise
    unless they first prove that the Word of John 1:1-4 is impervious to death.
    In other words; in order to prove to the Society that it's possible for a spirit
    being to exist as a human being simultaneously, it is necessary to prove to
    the Society that the Word is an everlasting life; which is a kind of life that
    cannot die. Fortunately it's very easy to do so because the apostle John did
    that part for us.

    1John 1:1-2 . .That which was from the beginning, which we have heard,
    which we have seen with our eyes, which we have viewed attentively and
    our hands felt, concerning the word of life, (yes, the life was made manifest,
    and we have seen and are bearing witness and reporting to you the
    everlasting life which was with the Father and was made manifest to us,)

    The Greek word for "everlasting" in that passage is aionios (ahee-o'-nee-os)
    which essentially means perpetual; viz: without interruption.

    The Word's human existence as per John 1:14 was as a mortal life and thus
    easily slain on the cross; but seeing as how the Word's spirit existence as
    per 1John 1:1-2 is an everlasting life, then it's impossible for the Word's
    spirit existence to be slain at all, let alone on the cross.

    According to the Bible; Adam arrived on the earth as an organic mortal, and
    that's it; nothing more. But the Word arrived on the earth as not only an
    organic mortal, but also as an everlasting spirit in whom is the power of life
    (John 1:4, John 5:26, 1Cor 15:45).

    Seeing as how the Word is an everlasting life then it was, and it is,
    impossible for the Word to strip himself of his spirit existence seeing as how
    everlasting life is impervious to death.

    Yhvh cannot interrupt His existence as God because Yhvh is an everlasting
    life (Gen 21:33, Rom 16:26). In the same manner, the Word cannot
    interrupt his existence as the Word because the Word is an everlasting life
    too. (John 5:26, 1John 1:1-2)

    The Word may have temporarily divested himself of his glory when he came
    to the earth to live and die as a human being, but he did not, and could not,
    divest himself of his spirit existence because in order to do that, he would
    have to die; which is an impossibility for everlasting life. If that were not so,
    then it would be possible to assassinate Yhvh. In point of fact, it would even
    be possible for Yhvh to commit suicide.

    Precisely how a non mortal being can exist simultaneously as a mortal being
    is one of the mysteries of classical Christianity that have to be accepted on
    faith because the human mind is just too limited to get it.


    NOTE: The human mind is produced by a 3-pound lump of flabby organic
    tissue, and not even all three of those flabby pounds are devoted to
    cognitive processes. On top of that, 60% of that tissue is fat; yet the
    Watchtower Society actually believes that it's fatty, flabby little organic mind
    is able to comprehend the complexities of somebody as supernatural as the
    Word while it cannot even comprehend something as natural as the infinity
    of space.
    _
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2018
  12. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    CHRIST'S RESURRECTION

    Were John Q and/or Jane Doe Watchtower Society missionary to be asked if
    they believe that Jesus Christ rose from the dead, I can assure you they
    would answer in the affirmative. However, what you may not know is that
    you and they would not be speaking the same language as the conversation
    would be talking about two very different processes that go by the same
    name. In other words: you would find yourself thrown off by semantic
    double speak.

    The classical Christian understanding of Christ's resurrection is common
    throughout the gospels; viz: his dead, crucified body was restored to life as
    per John 2:19-22.

    "Jesus said to them: Break down this temple, and in three days I will raise it
    up. Therefore the Jews said: This temple was built in forty-six years, and will
    you raise it up in three days? But he was talking about the temple of his
    body. When, though, he was raised up from the dead, his disciples called to
    mind that he used to say this; and they believed the Scripture and the
    saying that Jesus said."

    You see, if Jesus' dead, crucified body had not been restored to life, that
    entire passage would be easily proven false. But according to the
    Watchtower Society's way of seeing things; Christ's dead, crucified body
    didn't return to life at all; and here's why.

    In Watchtower Society theology, an angel named Michael volunteered to
    come to the earth to die for humanity's sins. But in order to do so; he had to
    relinquish his angel existence to become a human existence seeing as how
    in Society theology it is impossible for someone to exist as a spirit being and
    a human being simultaneously. However, when Michael expired, he didn't go
    completely out of existence. Instead, his "life force" remained intact and was
    transferred to a human form.

    "the transferal of the life of his firstborn Son from the spirit realm to earth.
    Only in this way could the child eventually born have retained identity as the
    same person who had resided in heaven as the Word." (Aid to Bible
    Understanding, 1971, p.920)

    "He had to become a perfect man and yet not lose his continuity of life. His
    life-force was not to be extinguished but would be transferred to the ovum
    of the virgin girl, Mary." (Watchtower magazine, 2-15-82, p.7)

    But Michael's existence as a human being was only temporary. When his
    human form passed away on the cross, the Society claims that God
    transferred Michael's life force back into his angel form thus restoring him to
    his former spirit existence; leaving the corpse of his human existence in a
    permanent state of decease.


    NOTE: The Society teaches that death terminates existence; but apparently
    not entirely because the Society also believes that at death, an angel's life
    force was transferred to another form-- in Michael's case, from a spirit form
    to an organic form; in effect, preserving a portion of Michael's existence so it
    could be re-transferred later when God went about restoring Michael to his
    former existence.

    It could be argued that Jesus lives on in the body of an angel; but that
    wouldn't be true seeing as how Jesus' life force was Michael's to begin with.

    The Society has to accept the obvious fact that their doctrine implies that
    Jesus Christ was never really fully human, rather, he was an amalgam of
    angel and human seeing as how it was the life force of an angel that kept
    Jesus' human body alive.

    In other words: the Society's Jesus wasn't an organic man in the normal
    sense, rather; he was an organic angel; because when you get right down to
    it; the nature of one's life force is what determines the nature of their
    existence. That's easily seen in the very first chapter of Genesis wherein all
    the various creatures were given a life force pertinent to the nature of their
    species.


    FYI: The Society maintains that Michael's crucified human form had to stay
    dead so he could be an angel again. But that's not the only reason the
    Society gives for keeping Michael's human remains perpetually deceased. An
    additional explanation is given on page 237 of the April 15, 1963 issue of the
    Watchtower magazine; where it's stated:

    "If Jesus were to take his body of flesh, blood, and bones to heaven and
    enjoy them there, what would this mean? It would mean that there would be
    no resurrection of the dead for anybody. Why not? Because Jesus would be
    taking his sacrifice off God's altar."

    There is a really, really big flaw in the Society's theology; and that's
    Michael's human remains. In order to confirm that his crucified human body
    stayed dead, the Society is going to have produce it. A piece of evidence of
    that significance can't be allowed to just slip through a crack unnoticed as if
    it makes no difference. As Carl Sagan once said: Extraordinary claims
    require extraordinary evidence.
    _
     
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  13. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    I think one would have to be quite the spiritual contortionist to believe ANY of that stuff. Wow...so, an angel dies for humans but, not for angels... :rolleyes: God requires PERFECTION, an angel is NOT PERFECT and NOT HUMAN. Jesus HAD to be God as He WAS perfect and from eternity past. God can and does do ANYTHING He wants. I just makes sense that Jesus was 100% human and 100% God. The atonement was for sins and COULD ONLY come from God Himself. Why is it so difficult to understand an Omnipotent God could send His own self/essence to pay for our sins? Jesus is the same from forever...the Arc Angel Michael is a CREATED being and imperfect so...HOW could he atone for HUMANS?? Oh, I know-he can't!
    Good post!
     
  14. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    THE IN CROWD

    Rom 8:9 . .You are in harmony, not with the flesh, but with the Spirit, if
    God’s spirit truly dwells in you.

    That passage informs the Watchtower Society's elite class of 144,000
    anointed Witnesses that they are in harmony with the Spirit; seeing as how
    it's alleged that the anointed class has God's sprit truly dwelling in them.

    At the same time; it informs the non-anointed class of Witnesses that they
    are in harmony, not with the Spirit, but with the flesh; and that is not a good
    thing seeing as they that are in harmony with the flesh are Jehovah's
    adversaries; unwilling to either please Him or comply with His wishes. If
    John Q and Jane Doe non-anointed Witness don't know this; then all I can
    say is: they've got some catching up to do.

    Rom 8:8 . . So those who are in harmony with the flesh cannot please
    God.

    There's more.

    1John 2:26-27 . .These things I write you about those who are trying to
    mislead you. And as for you, the anointing that you received from him
    remains in you, and you do not need anyone to be teaching you; but, as the
    anointing from him is teaching you about all things, and is true and is no lie,
    and just as it has taught you, remain in union with him.

    In a nutshell: the anointed class is allegedly able to remain in union with
    Christ on their own by means of the one-on-one spiritual guidance that the
    anointing provides them. Seeing as how the non-anointed class doesn't have
    access to either the anointing or the anointing's one-on-one spiritual
    guidance; they therefore are incapable of remaining in union with Christ on
    their own.

    That, coupled with their resistance to God as per Rom 8:8, leaves John Q
    and Jane Doe non-anointed Witness in a defenseless spiritual condition; vz:
    they are susceptible to deception by means of clever sophistry, semantic
    double speak, and humanistic reasoning.

    There's more yet:

    Non-anointed Witnesses sincerely believe they don't need the anointing
    because they obtain their spiritual instruction from anointed leaders.
    However, according to 1Cor 2:12-14, non-anointed Witnesses will neither
    listen to, nor accept, instruction from an anointed teacher because a physical
    man does not receive the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness
    to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined
    spiritually.


    FYI: "physical man" is the Watchtower Bible's language for non-anointed
    people. Here's the way that non anointed people are described with
    language from a classical version of the Bible.

    "We have not received the spirit of the world but the Spirit who is from God,
    that we may understand what God has freely given us. This is what we
    speak, not in words taught us by human wisdom but in words taught by the
    Spirit, expressing spiritual truths in spiritual words. The man without the
    Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, for they
    are foolishness to him, and he cannot understand them, because they are
    spiritually discerned."

    Therefore; if non-anointed Witness are receiving and accepting spiritual
    instruction from their leaders, it's only because their leaders are just as
    non-anointed as they are, i.e. it is an actual, real-life arrangement of the
    blind leading the blind.
    _
     
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  15. Jane_Doe22

    Jane_Doe22 Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your intentions here @Webers_Home , but I assure you I am vey capable of investigating JW beliefs straight from JW, and have done so. I know you mean well here, but it's really not needed and it's rubbing me the wrong way.
     
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  16. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    THE IN CROWD AND THE MEDIATOR

    1Tim 2:5 . . For there is one God, and one mediator between God and
    men, a man, Christ Jesus.

    On page 1129 of the Watchtower publication Aid To Bible Understanding a
    mediator is defined as one who interposes between two parties at variance
    to reconcile them: an intercessor.

    Here's a question that someone wrote in to the "Questions From Readers"
    section of the April 01, 1976 issue of Watchtower magazine, asking:

    Is Jesus the mediator only for anointed Christians? (a.k.a. the 144,000)

    The answer given in the magazine is YES.

    The magazine's answer is corroborated on page 1130 of Aid To Bible
    Understanding
    where it says that the 144,000 are the only ones who have
    the mediator; a.k.a. Jesus Christ. (1John 2:1)

    Intercession for non anointed Witnesses is accomplished on the coattails of
    the 144,000; viz: Jesus Christ is an indirect, second party mediator for the
    rank and file via their affiliation with the Watchtower Society.

    It's sort of like buying insurance from Allstate. The company doesn't sell
    direct; its business is conducted through brokers. In essence, that's what the
    Society presumes itself: Jesus Christ's mediation brokerage.

    So then; when a Jehovah's Witness either defects or is dis-fellowshipped, it
    breaks the pipeline to the mediator that he enjoyed within the Society's fold;
    and he right quick loses all contact with God; and finds himself in grave
    danger of the Tribulation.

    Bottom line: According to Watchtower Society theology; it is impossible for
    non-anointed people to be on peaceful terms with God apart from affiliation
    with the Society's anointed class, a.k.a. the faithful and wise steward.

    In other words: Christ's mediation as per 1Tim 2:5 is accomplished via a
    chain of communication that begins with Christ's association with the faithful
    and wise steward; and from thence to the rest of humanity. Removing the
    faithful and wise steward from the chain cuts humanity off from Christ; thus
    leaving them with no way to reconcile with God.
    _
     
  17. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    [OTHER]

    Below is the text of Col 1:16-17 quoted verbatim from the Watchtower
    Society's New World Translation of the Holy Scriptures ©1969.

    "Because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens
    and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter
    whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All
    [other] things have been created through him and for him. Also, he is before
    all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to
    exist."

    Note that the word "other" is in brackets. This alert readers that "other" is
    not in the Greek manuscript; viz: the Society's editors took the liberty to
    pencil it in; which gives the impression that God's son was His first creation;
    and thereafter, His son created everything else.

    One day, a pair of Watchtower missionaries came to my door consisting of
    an experienced worker and a trainee. I immediately began subjecting the
    trainee to a line of questioning that homed in on the Society's rather
    dishonest habit of penciling in words that go to reinforcing it's line of
    thinking.

    I had him read the Society's text of Col 1:16-17 and then pointed out that
    the word "other" is in brackets to alert him to the fact that "other" is not in
    the Greek manuscript. The experienced worker corroborated my statement.

    I then proceeded to have the trainee read the passage sans "other". It
    comes out like this:

    "By means of him all things were created in the heavens and upon the earth,
    the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are
    thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All things have been
    created through him and for him. Also, he is before all things and by means
    of him all things were made to exist."

    The trainee's eyes really lit up; and he actually grinned with delight to
    discover that Col 1:16-17 reveals something quite different than what he
    was led to believe.

    Had I pressed the attack; I would have pointed out to the trainee that the
    Society is inconsistent with its use of the word "other" by failing to pencil it
    into John 1:3 in order to make it read like this:

    "All [other] things came into existence through him, and apart from him not
    even one [other] thing came into existence."

    Now; as to tampering with Paul's letters, and forcing them to mean things
    they don't say in writing; this is what Peter has to say about that.

    2Pet 3:15-16 . . Furthermore, consider the patience of our Lord as
    salvation, just as our beloved brother Paul according to the wisdom given
    him also wrote you, speaking about these things as he does also in all his
    letters. In them, however, are some things hard to understand, which the
    untaught and unsteady are twisting, as they do also the rest of the
    Scriptures, to their own destruction.

    Untaught people are oftentimes self-taught; and were the Society's
    missionaries to check into ol' Charles T. Russell's rather ignoble past; they'd
    find that "self-taught" pretty much describes the origin of their theology.


    NOTE: The 1984 revised version of the New World Translation omits
    brackets around the word "other" in Col 1:16-17. However, it's readily seen
    from the Watchtower Society's Kingdom Interlinear Translation of the Greek
    Scriptures that "other" is nowhere to be found in the Greek text.
    _
     
  18. Harvest 1874

    Harvest 1874 Active Member

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    With this last I agree, generally when they go out in pairs door to door a more experienced witness accompanies a lesser trained individual. They not only know what they believe they know their scriptures, something which many professed believers assume they know likewise that is until they're put on the spot. Thus the reason to study, to prove all things that we might be prepare always to give a reason for the hope in us.

    As a Bible Student I have had several experiences with JW's coming to the door. It is only polite to listen. If you were going door to door promoting your beliefs you would expect the same courtesy.

    I have talked with several individuals, but as soon as I revealed that I was a Bible Student and a follower of the original teachings of Pastor Russell they kindly excused themselves and left. This is because the Watch Tower Society long ago under the leadership of Judge Rutherford who seized control of the organization after the death of Pastor Russell in 1916 immediately began to throw out all the writings of the Pastor and to replace them with his own. Sometime later in 1931 he finished purging the organization of all the rest of the original Bible Students and changed the name of the organization from the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society to the Jehovah's Witnesses.

    Hence forth all Bible Students (that is those who adhere to the teachings of Pastor Russell) are considered apostates, the "evil slave class" spoken of in Matt 24:48, unfortunately a review of the history and policies of the JW organization under the leadership of the governing body would quickly reveal that they have it backwards.

    JW's are cautioned about associating with Bible Students probably even more than the rest of the professing church.
     
  19. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    .
    Thus far, I've introduced a number of Watchtower Society doctrines; but
    that's only because we're on an internet forum viewed by a global audience.
    According to some of the ex JWs posting videos on YouTube, it's not a good
    idea to introduce a number of topics all at once in discussions with JW teams
    that come to our doors.

    The ex JWs suggest specialization. In other words; restrict your discussions
    to just one topic per visit; preferably a topic wherein you are very proficient
    and really know your stuff. It's imperative that you know their stuff too so
    you're fully prepared to counter their rebuttals intelligently and proficiently.
    And above all; do not let teams evade your one topic by going off on a
    tangent or changing the subject because you'll just end up frustrated and
    accomplish nothing.

    The goal is not to take the Watchtower Society down all at once; rather, to
    chip away at it, i.e. start a crack in the dam, so to speak; a crack that over
    time will widen by driving additional wedges into it until the dam fractures
    enough to set the water behind it free. And besides; it's not a good idea to
    give people too many new concepts to think about all at once because
    they're not likely to absorb very much of anything like that.

    Needless to say; Christian newbies should never attempt to go head to head
    with Watchtower missionaries; not until they themselves have been properly
    and sufficiently brought up to speed as per Eph 4:11-14.
    _
     
  20. Webers_Home

    Webers_Home Well-Known Member

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    .
    THE FIRSTBORN

    Col 1:15 . . He is the firstborn of all creation

    The Watchtower Society has appropriated that verse as evidence that God's
    son (Col 1:13) was the first thing that God ever created.

    However, the New Testament Greek word for "firstborn" in that verse is
    prototokos, which never means created first; no, it always means born first.
    The correct Greek word for created first is protoktistos.

    The average Watchtower Society missionary doesn't know the difference;
    and no doubt would care little for it anyway. To some of them; born first and
    created first are essentially one and the same. But are they the same? No.
    Birthing requires a parent while creating requires a craftsman. Birthing
    produces progeny while crafting produces projects. God's son wasn't a
    project; no, he's progeny. For example: Adam was a project while Adam's3
    son Seth was progeny; viz; Adam was crafted from dust, while Seth was a
    multiple of his father.

    However, though "firstborn" normally indicates the one born first; it doesn't
    eo ipso refer to birth order. It can also refer to hierarchal order too, and as
    such is sometimes bestowed upon a younger sibling; e.g. Jacob and Esau3
    (Gen 25:23) Manasseh and Ephraim (Gen 48:13-14) and Reuben and
    Joseph. (Gen 49:3-4, 1Chr 5:1)

    The rank of firstborn can also indicate a national position; for example when
    God sent Moses to confront Pharaoh, He instructed Moses to say:

    "Israel is my son, my firstborn." (Ex 4:22)

    There was a time when David held the rank of God's firstborn (Ps 89:20-27).
    However, David's supremacy was limited to the earth. The supremacy of
    God's son includes not only the earth; but the entire cosmos will all of its
    forms of life, matter, and energy.

    Col 1:17 . . He is before all things

    The koiné Greek word translated "before" is pro (pro); a primary preposition
    meaning "fore", i.e. in front of, prior; for example: forefront; which
    Webster's defines as the most important part or position; viz: the foremost
    part or place; for example:

    Rev 3:14 . . And to the angel of the congregation in Laodicea write: These
    are the things that the Amen says, the faithful and true witness, the
    beginning of the creation by God.

    The koiné Greek word translated "beginning" is arche (ar-khay') which
    means, among other things, chief (in various applications of order, time,
    place, or rank). Arche also means a commencement; for example:

    John 1:3 . . All things came into existence through him, and apart from
    him not even one thing came into existence.

    In other words: Col 1:17 isn't saying that God's son came along before
    anything else, rather that he's preeminent, which Webster's defines as
    having paramount rank, dignity, or importance.
    _
     
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