The Woman in Revelation 12

[Dcopymope]

There are plenty of people out there that believe the “woman” of Revelation is referring to Mary, starting in chapter 12. If you are going to claim that Revelation 12 is somehow referring to Mary being with Jesus, then there has to be some degree of continuity leading up to Revelation, and I really don’t see much of anything.

Revelation 12, blow by blow:

(Revelation 12:1-17) “And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars: {2} And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered. {3} And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads. {4} And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. {5} And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

So far so good for this theory, as it seems to be speaking of Mary birthing Jesus, who indeed will rule the nations as king. However, this is pretty much where the resemblance ends.

{6} And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

And here is where the problem starts, because we know Mary never fled into “the wilderness” with Jesus. Scripture tells us where she fled, which is to Egypt, whose appearance is about the furthest thing from a “wilderness”.

{7} And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels, {8} And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven. {9} And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him. {10} And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. {11} And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

One can say that this war in heaven started soon after the birth of Jesus, if we are to follow the line of reasoning of the 'woman' being Mary. However, other scriptures make this part quite easy for someone to conclude that this war in fact occurs in the last days. Before I actually quote those scriptures, we should continue on and finish Rev 12.

{12} Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.

So he knows that he doesn’t have a lot of time at all before his inevitable end, 1260 days to be exact, as John clearly states earlier in the chapter. Now, maybe its just me, but when I read “a short time”, I take it to mean a few years at the most, not 2000 years later and counting. 1260 days, or three years later sounds a hell of a lot shorter than 2000 odd years later, so the lack of continuity is mounting…..continuing on.

{13} And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child. {14} And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.{15} And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood. {16} And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth. {17} And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.”

Ok, now you see, here is where I find it appropriate to start quoting the scriptures confirming this to be strictly end times prophecy. Jesus clearly states that the Anti-Christ, or “the beast” sitting in the temple and declaring himself god in the flesh marks the beginning of the “Great Tribulation”, three year period. At this point, he says the citizenry of Israel will be running to the hills, because now the stench is really about to hit the fan.

The beginning of sorrows:

(Matthew 24:4-21) “And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. {5} For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. {6} And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. {7} For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. {8} All these are the beginning of sorrows. {9} Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name’s sake. {10} And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. {11} And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many. {12} And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold. {13} But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. {14} And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

The Great Tribulation:

{15} When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand{16} Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: {17} Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: {18} Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. {19} And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! {20} But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: {21} For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.”

Now that last part sounds extremely familiar to me. It sounds just like the end of the book of Daniel, when Michael, the angel that eventually gets rowdy with Satan in heaven, “shall stand up”, with Israel going through a period of tribulation the likes of which the nation has never seen before.

(Daniel 12:1-4) “And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. {2} And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. {3} And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever. {4} But thou, O Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, even to the time of the end: many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall be increased.”

We see the similarity of the wording of the entire passage to other scriptures clearly referring to the end times. So obviously, at this point, what Michael is actually “standing up” to is Satan, for the great war in heaven. At no point does any of it even imply that Mary is the ‘woman’ being referred to in Revelation. The woman is clearly referring to Israel, who is indeed the birthplace of the “man child”, Jesus. Lets compare scripture with scripture and put this issue to rest.

(Revelation 11:8) “And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.“

(Revelation 17:1-3) “And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters: {2} With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication, and the inhabitants of the earth have been made drunk with the wine of her fornication. {3} So he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet coloured beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.”

(Revelation 17:18) “And the woman which thou sawest is that great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.”

Obviously, if the woman is referred to as “that great city”, it can’t possibly be referring to Mary or any particular woman, but to a dwelling place. The only city this could possibly be referring to is Israel, Jerusalem, the place where "our Lord was crucified".

 

[Paul Christensen]

There are plenty of people out there that believe the “woman” of Revelation is referring to Mary, starting in chapter 12. If you are going to claim that Revelation 12 is somehow referring to Mary being with Jesus, then there has to be some degree of continuity leading up to Revelation, and I really don’t see much of anything.

I don't think it is Mary. I think it speaks more of Israel. I will explain:

Revelation 12, blow by blow:

So far so good for this theory, as it seems to be speaking of Mary birthing Jesus, who indeed will rule the nations as king. However, this is pretty much where the resemblance ends.

This shows that the King of kings will come out of Israel, so it speaks of Jesus being born in Bethlehem, Israel, and conducting His ministry to the Jews. He said that He has come to minister only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24).

And here is where the problem starts, because we know Mary never fled into “the wilderness” with Jesus. Scripture tells us where she fled, which is to Egypt, whose appearance is about the furthest thing from a “wilderness”.

I believe that this speaks of the Tribulation where the Antichrist is gathering the armies of the world to attack Israel, and a remnant flees into the wilderness where they are protected by the Lord.

One can say that this war in heaven started soon after the birth of Jesus, if we are to follow the line of reasoning of the 'woman' being Mary. However, other scriptures make this part quite easy for someone to conclude that this war in fact occurs in the last days. Before I actually quote those scriptures, we should continue on and finish Rev 12.

The war in heaven speaks of when Satan first rebelled against God and he and his rebel angels were cast out. It seems that the war in the heavenlies went on afterward because when Daniel prayed and it took three weeks for the answer to arrive, and when the angel did arrive with the answer, he told Daniel he was delayed because of a battle between him and a demonic principality named "The Prince of Persia", and another powerful angel had to come and assist him so he could get through to Daniel.

So the great Dragon, Satan has been cast down to the earth to be the god of this world, but he is a defeated foe for all Christian believers.

So he knows that he doesn’t have a lot of time at all before his inevitable end, 1260 days to be exact, as John clearly states earlier in the chapter. Now, maybe its just me, but when I read “a short time”, I take it to mean a few years at the most, not 2000 years later and counting. 1260 days, or three years later sounds a hell of a lot shorter than 2000 odd years later, so the lack of continuity is mounting…..continuing on.

We have to realise that Revelation contains much apocalyptic language, and it is obvious that the 1260 days may stand for a particular episode in future history, but we don't know when that will be.

Ok, now you see, here is where I find it appropriate to start quoting the scriptures confirming this to be strictly end times prophecy. Jesus clearly states that the Anti-Christ, or “the beast” sitting in the temple and declaring himself god in the flesh marks the beginning of the “Great Tribulation”, three year period. At this point, he says the citizenry of Israel will be running to the hills, because now the stench is really about to hit the fan.

I believe that this will happen, and human history is developing up to that time.

The beginning of sorrows:

The Great Tribulation:



Now that last part sounds extremely familiar to me. It sounds just like the end of the book of Daniel, when Michael, the angel that eventually gets rowdy with Satan in heaven, “shall stand up”, with Israel going through a period of tribulation the likes of which the nation has never seen before.



We see the similarity of the wording of the entire passage to other scriptures clearly referring to the end times. So obviously, at this point, what Michael is actually “standing up” to is Satan, for the great war in heaven. At no point does any of it even imply that Mary is the ‘woman’ being referred to in Revelation. The woman is clearly referring to Israel, who is indeed the birthplace of the “man child”, Jesus. Lets compare scripture with scripture and put this issue to rest.

Ah. So you have come to the same conclusion.

Obviously, if the woman is referred to as “that great city”, it can’t possibly be referring to Mary or any particular woman, but to a dwelling place. The only city this could possibly be referring to is Israel, Jerusalem, the place where "our Lord was crucified".

The description of the city is that it is situated on "seven hills", so it could not be Jerusalem. Rome is the only city on seven hills. It is described as such in the historical records. This could speak of Rome containing the one-world government and religious centre. Dave Hunt, in his book "The Woman Who Rides The Beast" gives a very believable and fascinating study about it.

This means that Rome will become the commercial centre of the world, and this will explain that when Rome/Babylon is destroyed, merchants around the world will weep, as world-wide recession hits them and their businesses fail.

Actually we can see the seeds of the trend toward a one-world government being planted through the world becoming "smaller" through the internet, and the United Nations. We also see the seeds of a desire to unite the faiths of the world with Pope Francis welcoming Muslins, Hindus, and Buddhits as "brothers" in the faith, and many Evangelicals are moving toward unity with the pope. One of the ministers of my own fellowship (Methodist/Presbyterian) often quotes Pope Francis whose writings he sees as authoritative Christian.

 

[CharismaticLady]

It is similar to Joseph's dream

Genesis 37:
9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”

Revelation 12:
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

Jesus is the child, but I think this is about His genealogy, so I believe it is Israel. Nothing about Mary would suggest the sun, moon and stars.

 

[Dcopymope]

I don't think it is Mary. I think it speaks more of Israel. I will explain:


This shows that the King of kings will come out of Israel, so it speaks of Jesus being born in Bethlehem, Israel, and conducting His ministry to the Jews. He said that He has come to minister only to the lost sheep of Israel (Matthew 15:24).

Yes, agree'd, you would think this would be obvious to people, and I don't know where this need to make the woman of Rev 12 Mary really comes from.

I believe that this speaks of the Tribulation where the Antichrist is gathering the armies of the world to attack Israel, and a remnant flees into the wilderness where they are protected by the Lord.

Well if you read down further in my post you will the correlation between the 'woman' fleeing into the wilderness with Jesus saying that people will flee into the mountains when the anti christ declares himself God. The Antichrist won't have to attack Israel, because the Jews will welcome him with open arms. He will tell them exactly what they want to hear, confirming the old covenant with the rebuilding of the old temple, and a return to animal sacrifices.

The war in heaven speaks of when Satan first rebelled against God and he and his rebel angels were cast out. It seems that the war in the heavenlies went on afterward because when Daniel prayed and it took three weeks for the answer to arrive, and when the angel did arrive with the answer, he told Daniel he was delayed because of a battle between him and a demonic principality named "The Prince of Persia", and another powerful angel had to come and assist him so he could get through to Daniel. So the great Dragon, Satan has been cast down to the earth to be the god of this world, but he is a defeated foe for all Christian believers.

The only way this would make sense is if the war took place 30 odd years later after Jesus was born, when he died and rose again, not within only three years as John plainly states. The reason is simple, its because the victory over Satan being defeated is not actually credited to Michael and his angels, but to the "blood of the lamb", Jesus.

(Revelation 12:10-12) "And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night. {11} And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death. {12} Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time."

We have to realise that Revelation contains much apocalyptic language, and it is obvious that the 1260 days may stand for a particular episode in future history, but we don't know when that will be.

Exactly, which is why the war in heaven taking place ages ago makes no sense. The three year period speaks of the end times, the Great Tribulation, and the war in heaven is what starts it, which happens pretty pretty much at the same time the beast declares himself God in the temple.

The description of the city is that it is situated on "seven hills", so it could not be Jerusalem. Rome is the only city on seven hills. It is described as such in the historical records. This could speak of Rome containing the one-world government and religious centre. Dave Hunt, in his book "The Woman Who Rides The Beast" gives a very believable and fascinating study about it.

This means that Rome will become the commercial centre of the world, and this will explain that when Rome/Babylon is destroyed, merchants around the world will weep, as world-wide recession hits them and their businesses fail.

Actually we can see the seeds of the trend toward a one-world government being planted through the world becoming "smaller" through the internet, and the United Nations. We also see the seeds of a desire to unite the faiths of the world with Pope Francis welcoming Muslins, Hindus, and Buddhits as "brothers" in the faith, and many Evangelicals are moving toward unity with the pope. One of the ministers of my own fellowship (Methodist/Presbyterian) often quotes Pope Francis whose writings he sees as authoritative Christian.

If we're gonna let the description of the city sitting on "seven hills" determine that its Rome being referred to, then you also have to explain why John states it is the same city Jesus was put to death in, because we all know it wasn't Rome.

 

[Dcopymope]

It is similar to Joseph's dream

Genesis 37:
9 Then he dreamed still another dream and told it to his brothers, and said, “Look, I have dreamed another dream. And this time, the sun, the moon, and the eleven stars bowed down to me.”

Revelation 12:
Now a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a garland of twelve stars.

Jesus is the child, but I think this is about His genealogy, so I believe it is Israel. Nothing about Mary would suggest the sun, moon and stars.

Well stated, forgot all about Josephs dream, good reference.

 

[Base12]

Fun thread Dcopymope.

I've been wanting to make a similar one.

Here are my thoughts for what they are worth, although I doubt anyone here will agree since my views are pretty radical... lol.

• The Woman of the Apocalypse is Sarah.
• The Sun she is clothed with is Abraham.
• The Twelve Stars are the Twelve Tribes and future nation of Israel.
• The child is Isaac or Abraham's Seed whose Genealogy leads to Jesus.
• The war in Heaven was the Sodom and Gomorrah incident.
• The Brimstone falling on the cities were the third of the Angels that were cast down.
• The Wilderness was Mt Sinai.
• The Dragon was cast down and became Pharaoh, one of the heads of the Beast.
• The Flood the Dragon cast out of his mouth was the Red Sea crossing incident.
• Earth helped during the parting of the Red Sea by swallowing the water.
• The Israelites were then nourished for the next 1260 years.
• Babylon captivity occurs, etc.
• Jesus is born.

Since there are too many verses to post here, I just summarized everything in bullet points.

Having said that, I assure you and everyone here that I actually can back everything up with verses.

Some day I will expand on all of this. Now here is the part everyone hates...

Since all of this already happened in the past, no one will want to believe it since it doesn't happen in the future, and as a result, it doesn't make the Modern Christian feel all special and warm inside.

Verses such as this...

Revelation 12:12
"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time"

...are confusing to Christians because they see it as a 'one time event', when actually Satan incarnates many times in Human Form.

This is why his time is short. He is mortal for a short time. Each incarnation adds a head to the Beast.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Well if you read down further in my post you will the correlation between the 'woman' fleeing into the wilderness with Jesus saying that people will flee into the mountains when the anti Christ declares himself God. The Antichrist won't have to attack Israel, because the Jews will welcome him with open arms. He will tell them exactly what they want to hear, confirming the old covenant with the rebuilding of the old temple, and a return to animal sacrifices.

Yes, that is correct. But he is deceiving them so they will think he is on their side when he really isn't. It is when the Jews are complacent and trusting, that he will gather all the armies of the earth to attack Israel to destroy it. When we understand that if Satan can destroy Israel, Jesus can't return, because there will be no Israel to return to, and every Jew is killed (as the Muslims want so they can be resurrected on their "day of the lord"), then God will be exposed as a liar, because there are definite prophecies that Jesus will set up His 1000 year millennial reign on the throne of David in Jerusalem. If Jerusalem is destroyed, then the prophecy cannot come true, Jesus cannot return to Israel, and Satan will have won.

This is why Jesus will return with all His saints to intervene and defeat the Antichrist and destroy the armies. The prophecy says that the corpses of the armies will lie in the valley and be food for the fowls of the air and the beasts of the field (Jeremiah 7:33).

Well, the only this would make sense is if the war took place 30 odd years later after Jesus was born, when he died and rose again, not three years later as John plainly states. The reason is simple, its because the victory over Satan being defeated is not actually credited to Michael and his angels, but to the "blood of the lamb", Jesus.

The battle in heaven is the equivalent of "D Day" when the allies landed on the beaches of Normandy. This signaled the inevitable defeat of Nazi Germany. But there were still battles to be won, and the final defeat of Germany happened when the Russians raised their flag of victory over Berlin. We are still involved in a spiritual battle with Satan and his demons, but at the second coming of Christ, final defeat of the powers of darkness will be a reality.

Exactly, which is why the war in heaven taking place ages ago makes no sense. The three year period speaks of the end times, the Great Tribulation, and the war in heaven is what starts it, which happens pretty pretty much at the same time the beast declares himself God in the temple.

I don't think that Revelation is written in strict chronological order. There seems to a combination of past, present, and future in it. I think we have to read it in relation to what the rest of the Scriptural record says, because we have to have Scripture interpreting Scripture, and those who read Revelation in the first century would have done that.

If we're gonna let the description of the city sitting on "seven hills" determine that its Rome being referred to, then you also have to explain why John states it is the same city Jesus was put to death in, because we all know it wasn't Rome.

"we all know it wasn't Rome"? Not really. That's like my mum saying, "Everyone in town knows that they serve bigger ice-creams at the Manhattan Milk Bar in High Street!" And I asked her, "Do you mean that all 15,000 people who live in Blenheim say that? I would say that the 1000 customers of the Palace Ice-cream Parlour in Market Street would be saying something different!"

It could be a prophecy about Rome putting to death those who believed in Christ, but did not accept the authority of the Church of Rome. Jesus said that whatever is done to the least of His brethren, the same is done to Him (Matthew 25:40).

Also, I don't believe that Jerusalem would be the world centre of commerce or of religion in the same way as Rome could be. We can't see it right now, because it seems that Wall Street in the United States is more dominant in the area of commerce, and what happens there affects the whole world. But then up until 1948, no one thought that the Jews would ever return to their land and bring about the nation of Israel after 2000 years as prophesied hundreds of years before Jesus was born.

I don't think that anyone has the absolute definitive truth about how the prophecy of the Book of Revelation is actually going to be played out. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, we have only partial knowledge and we "see through a glass darkly" at these things. I think it would be arrogance to say that just one view is "truth" and other views are false.

 

[Paul Christensen]

Fun thread Dcopymope.

I've been wanting to make a similar one.

Here are my thoughts for what they are worth, although I doubt anyone here will agree since my views are pretty radical... lol.

• The Woman of the Apocalypse is Sarah.
• The Sun she is clothed with is Abraham.
• The Twelve Stars are the Twelve Tribes and future nation of Israel.
• The child is Isaac or Abraham's Seed whose Genealogy leads to Jesus.
• The war in Heaven was the Sodom and Gomorrah incident.
• The Brimstone falling on the cities were the third of the Angels that were cast down.
• The Wilderness was Mt Sinai.
• The Dragon was cast down and became Pharaoh, one of the heads of the Beast.
• The Flood the Dragon cast out of his mouth was the Red Sea crossing incident.
• Earth helped during the parting of the Red Sea by swallowing the water.
• The Israelites were then nourished for the next 1260 years.
• Babylon captivity occurs, etc.
• Jesus is born.

Since there are too many verses to post here, I just summarized everything in bullet points.

Having said that, I assure you and everyone here that I actually can back everything up with verses.

Some day I will expand on all of this. Now here is the part everyone hates...

Since all of this already happened in the past, no one will want to believe it since it doesn't happen in the future, and as a result, it doesn't make the Modern Christian feel all special and warm inside.

Verses such as this...

Revelation 12:12
"Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time"

...are confusing to Christians because they see it as a 'one time event', when actually Satan incarnates many times in Human Form.

This is why his time is short. He is mortal for a short time. Each incarnation adds a head to the Beast.

Interesting and informative. Looking forward to how you can support this through Scripture.

 

[Dcopymope]

Yes, that is correct. But he is deceiving them so they will think he is on their side when he really isn't. It is when the Jews are complacent and trusting, that he will gather all the armies of the earth to attack Israel to destroy it. When we understand that if Satan can destroy Israel, Jesus can't return, because there will be no Israel to return to, and every Jew is killed (as the Muslims want so they can be resurrected on their "day of the lord"), then God will be exposed as a liar, because there are definite prophecies that Jesus will set up His 1000 year millennial reign on the throne of David in Jerusalem. If Jerusalem is destroyed, then the prophecy cannot come true, Jesus cannot return to Israel, and Satan will have won.

This is why Jesus will return with all His saints to intervene and defeat the Antichrist and destroy the armies. The prophecy says that the corpses of the armies will lie in the valley and be food for the fowls of the air and the beasts of the field (Jeremiah 7:33).

The problem comes from understanding the actual reason why Satan gathers the armies together. For one, it should be noted that destroying Israel was never his motive. He doesn't want to destroy Israel, he wants to replace God himself as the God of Israel, to be like the most high. Secondly, its not Satan that destroys Israel in the narrative, God destroys it with a massive earthquake as part of his seven vials judgement.

(Revelation 16:17-19) "And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. {18} And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. {19} And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath."

It states that Satan gathers the armies to fight against Jesus and his army, not against Israel.

(Revelation 19:19) "And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army."

At this point, Satan already has Israel through the beast, whose seat and authority came from Satan to start with (Rev 13:2). Jesus is simply coming back to take back what is his.

I don't think that Revelation is written in strict chronological order. There seems to a combination of past, present, and future in it. I think we have to read it in relation to what the rest of the Scriptural record says, because we have to have Scripture interpreting Scripture, and those who read Revelation in the first century would have done that.

You're right, the narrative isn't written like a traditional book would. I made a separate thread long ago giving a blow by blow description of the entire book. However, the events given in each chapter in the book is in fact written in chronological order. No one would even begin to be able to understand any of it if they weren't.

"we all know it wasn't Rome"? Not really. That's like my mum saying, "Everyone in town knows that they serve bigger ice-creams at the Manhattan Milk Bar in High Street!" And I asked her, "Do you mean that all 15,000 people who live in Blenheim say that? I would say that the 1000 customers of the Palace Ice-cream Parlour in Market Street would be saying something different!"

It could be a prophecy about Rome putting to death those who believed in Christ, but did not accept the authority of the Church of Rome. Jesus said that whatever is done to the least of His brethren, the same is done to Him (Matthew 25:40).

Also, I don't believe that Jerusalem would be the world centre of commerce or of religion in the same way as Rome could be. We can't see it right now, because it seems that Wall Street in the United States is more dominant in the area of commerce, and what happens there affects the whole world. But then up until 1948, no one thought that the Jews would ever return to their land and bring about the nation of Israel after 2000 years as prophesied hundreds of years before Jesus was born.

I don't think that anyone has the absolute definitive truth about how the prophecy of the Book of Revelation is actually going to be played out. As Paul says in 1 Corinthians 13, we have only partial knowledge and we "see through a glass darkly" at these things. I think it would be arrogance to say that just one view is "truth" and other views are false.

Again, John specifically states the city being referred to is the city Jesus was crucified in, on no uncertain terms. It says nothing about Rome putting Christians to death. Rome is over one thousand miles away from Jerusalem, so how anyone can confuse the two is beyond me.

 

[Paul Christensen]

The problem comes from understanding the actual reason why Satan gathers the armies together. For one, it should be noted that destroying Israel was never his motive. He doesn't want to destroy Israel, he wants to replace God himself as the God of Israel, to be like the most high. Secondly, its not Satan that destroys Israel in the narrative, God destroys it with a massive earthquake as part of his seven vials judgement.



It states that Satan gathers the armies to fight against Jesus and his army, not against Israel.



At this point, Satan already has Israel through the beast, whose seat and authority came from Satan to start with (Rev 13:2). Jesus is simply coming back to take back what is his.



You're right, the narrative isn't written like a traditional book would. I made a separate thread long ago giving a blow by blow description of the entire book. However, the events given in each chapter in the book is in fact written in chronological order. No one would even begin to be able to understand any of it if they weren't.



Again, John specifically states the city being referred to is the city Jesus was crucified in, on no uncertain terms. It says nothing about Rome putting Christians to death. Rome is over one thousand miles away from Jerusalem, so how anyone can confuse the two is beyond me.

The sticking point is the description of the city sitting on seven hills which does not describe Jerusalem. So, on the surface, it seems that one contradicts the other. I don't have the answer for that.

I guess that it is the nature of Revelation, being apocalyptic, that it lends itself to a number of interpretations, which means that each one who comes up with the interpretation of his choosing defends his stance as the 'truth" as he sees it.

I think it is a matter of wait and see, rather than making any particular interpretation essential to the gospel of Christ and the assurance of salvation for converted believers.

 

[Dcopymope]

The sticking point is the description of the city sitting on seven hills which does not describe Jerusalem. So, on the surface, it seems that one contradicts the other. I don't have the answer for that.

I guess that it is the nature of Revelation, being apocalyptic, that it lends itself to a number of interpretations, which means that each one who comes up with the interpretation of his choosing defends his stance as the 'truth" as he sees it.

I think it is a matter of wait and see, rather than making any particular interpretation essential to the gospel of Christ and the assurance of salvation for converted believers.

To be clear, it is apparent that Rome isn't the only city referred to as sitting on seven hills. Many cities are claimed to be built on seven hills, and Jerusalem is in fact one of them.

Link: Seven Hills of Jerusalem

 

[achristian1985]

truthseekersasciencespiritual.blogspot.com/

Christianity, the Religion
1. BABYLON, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS
In this section I must implore you, the reader, to set aside your natural concepts. I must re-emphasize that such concepts will lead you to consider good as always being from God, causing you to be fooled by Satan's master work. If you want to see things from the spiritual point of view‑ the reality behind the outward appearance‑ you must lay aside personal opinion in order to have an open mind, especially in the subject that we will now consider. All that I ask is that your evaluation of what I have to say be objective, rational, and honest. It is not my intention to criticize any individuals or to question their sincerity‑ that is between them and the Lord‑ but it is necessary that I expose certain categories of people, so if the shoe fits so be it.

From this point on, understand that whenever the term "Christianity" is used in this book, it does not include Roman Catholicism; Christianity will refer to all organized religion that is ostensibly following Christ and that does not contain any heretical teachings or practices. Catholicism is not even a Christian religion.



Author's Note:

There are two women at the end of this age who claim to have a relationship with Christ.

One woman is the pure, holy, spotless, and without wrinkles bride of Christ. Nothing indicates her size; only her purity and singleness of heart are portrayed.

The other woman is a great harlot with many daughters. She claims Christ as her husband, but is in reality married to the satanic world system. She is depicted as great, powerful, world‑wide, rich, and full of fornication and idolatry.

At the time of the uploading of this book (2000), the most accurate estimates are that the priesthood of the Roman Catholic Church has an HIV‑AIDS infection rate somewhere between 8 and 11 times that of the general population. This is pure, and this is holy? Again, which of these two women is the accurate depiction of the Roman Catholic Church?

COME OUT OF HER MY PEOPLE!!!

THIS IS THE DESPERATE PLEA OF OUR HUSBAND TO ALL OF HIS LOVERS TO SEPARATE THEMSEVES FROM ALL OF THE WORLD SYSTEM!!!

WHY??? SO THAT THEY BE MARRIED NOW IN THEIR BEING TO HIM!!!



Who are the harlot daughters of Babylon? In order to realize the answer to this question, we must realize the Scriptural implications of the word 'harlot.' According to Ezekiel Chapter 16, Jeremiah Chapter 51, and Isaiah Chapter 47, a harlot in the eye of God is one who claims to belong to God but is in actuality unfaithful due to prostituting herself to the world system. A harlot in God's eyes, then, is anyone who pollutes the things of God by mixing them with the things of the world.

There is, however, one very important difference between the Old Testament descriptions of Israel's harlotry and the descriptions of this New Testament harlot. Whereas Israel was an unfaithful wife who could legitimately claim God as her husband, the Lord has never recognized any claim made upon him by Babylon. Consequently, He refers to her as "that woman," "the great whore," and "a woman." Babylon can never legitimately claim to be the Lord's purpose or intention.


If you are a believer in Babylon, most likely you have been told that as long as you are saved, everything is okay: you will be raptured to heaven before the Tribulation starts and live happily ever after. Do you know what the main purpose of the Tribulation is? The main purpose of the Tribulation is not, strictly speaking, to punish the world. The judgment of the world occurs after the Tribulation. Why does God allow the bad time of the Tribulation to occur‑ is God cruel? Certainly not! The main purpose of the Tribulation is to mature in Christ the majority of Christians, who have allowed so many things to interfere with their spiritual growth. As we will see in Chapter Nine, most Christians will still be here on the Earth during the Tribulation. Do not accept the lie that as long as you are saved, your problems are over.

And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues. (Rev. 18:4 Intl. Greek)


1. Religion is man's attempt to please God with his own capability. The source of religion is the self (the natural man), the expression of the fallen nature of man's flesh upon his corrupted soul.

2. In total opposition to religion is Jesus Christ, the complete God and perfect man. This is God's provision for man to believe into and receive in order to fully meet every requirement and desire of God‑ to thoroughly enable man to become fully one with God in life and nature (but NOT in His Godhead) in order to co‑inhere with the Triune God for eternity.

3. If my dear brothers and sisters in religion were in reality following the living, present person of Christ Himself they would not be divided. Instead, they have become captives of an evil counterfeit system. Their hearts have deceived them into ‘doing what is right in their own minds’- resulting in worshipping God according to their concept and preference. Even the unbelievers know this, their accurate observation is: "If Jesus Christ is real, then why are there so many kinds of Christians?" "Come out of her, my people" is His urgent call. Do not try to improve or change her, come out of her.

The oneness among believers is what we value the least, and what Satan fears the most. My dearest eternal family (those in Babylon still), will you forsake your opinions and preferences so that the Lord can use you as material for the fulfillment of the greatest prophesy in the Bible: "I will build my church". Open up to and pray over John 17:20‑21 to the Lord and may He impart this ultimate desire of His heart into your heart.

 

[Base12]

• The Flood the Dragon cast out of his mouth was the Red Sea crossing incident.
• Earth helped during the parting of the Red Sea by swallowing the water.

Psalms 66:6
"He turned the sea into dry land: they went through the flood on foot: there did we rejoice in him"

 

[Davy]

Yeah, it's about Israel, from Joseph's dream in Genesis 37.

Revelation 12:1-5 is a short summary, from the time of the Seed of the woman in God's Garden down to the future time when Jesus returns to reign with the rod of iron.

In the last Rev.12 verse, the 'woman' represents Christ's Church, those who have the Witness of Jesus Christ is His Church.

Also in reality, the 'name' Israel which God first gave to Jacob, represents the continued Promise by Faith which God first gave Abraham. Abraham believed God, and it was counted to Abraham as righteousness. Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 that those of Faith are thus the children of Abraham. Therefore, Paul in Romans 9 applied the concept of believers on Christ Jesus being God's true Israel.

This is why the 'woman' in Rev.12 is always about God's chosen servants in The Gospel, even back in OT times, for the Promise by Faith that Abraham believed, is about The Gospel of Jesus Christ.