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The Wrath of the Lord

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by keras, Aug 17, 2015.

  1. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    It's not an error keras. The first six seals are revealed in the Olivet Discourse. Matt 24 and Rev 6 work in chronological order. Rapture occurs at the seventh seal.

    1st Seal - Matt 24:4-5 NIV, Rev 6:1-2 NIV
    2nd Seal - Matt 24:6 NIV, Rev 6:3-4 NIV
    3rd Seal - Matt 24:7 NIV, Rev 6:5-6 NIV
    4th Seal - Matt 24:6-7 NIV, Rev 6:7-8 NIV
    5th Seal - Matt 24:9 NIV, Rev 6:9-11 NIV
    6th Seal - Matt 24:29-31 NIV, Rev 6:12-14 NIV

    The Day of the Lord and the Second Coming of Christ are not the same event. The Day of the Lord is rapture and God's trumpets poured out, and the Second Coming is when He lands on the Mount of Olives. After the seven years are over, the bowls will be poured out for 30 days. After the 30 days are over, Dan 12:11 NIV, the second coming will occur.
     
  2. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    The two witness will come before the day of the Lord..Mal 4:5 NIV “See, I will send the prophet Elijah to you before that great and dreadful day of the LORD comes.
     
  3. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    This rhetorical question of rabbi keras demonstrates how deep his delusion has sunk into his head.

    Notwithstanding that his one verse that he trots out does not in its description reflect the phenomenon he claims will be the fire of the Day of the Lord - and completely misrepresenting the time Isaiah writes the sun shining bright will be as being when God heals the wounds He has inflicted - still rabbi keras is stuck on stupid.

    The Day of the Lord, unleashed with the sixth Seal's opening, features first Rescue, and then Wrath - just like Lot and Noah.
     
  4. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Does keras think the GT is all of 3.5 years? If so, that is incorrect.

    Does keras think the sixth seal is open after the Day of the Lord? If so, that is incorrect.
     
  5. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    The idea of Rescue / Wrath can be found in multiple places in the Bible.

    First with the Gospel account of the Olivet Discourse where Jesus says at the end of the age, it is as it was with Noah and Lot. A lot (excuse the pun) of argument concerns who was taken with Noah. However, how you interpret that, also must be applicable to Lot. The only way is to view both consistently, is to see both as being taken away, (Noah rising above the flood waters; Lot being led out of the city) before God's Wrath befalls those left behind to drown or burn.

    Second, with the Seal/Scroll chronology of Revelation chapters 4-11 (exclusive of 11:1-13) - we see the Sixth Seal, the precursor sign of the Day of the Lord (also found in Mt 24:29) and then, after the 1444,000; the result of the Resurrection of the Dead in Christ and the Rapture of those who remain and are still alive after the Great Tribulation in Heaven before God's Throne. Then the seventh Seal is broken, resulting in silence as the Scroll is now open for the desolations God has decreed (Dan 9:26) to go forth. The first Trumpet of God's Wrath brings with it two elements found on the Day of the Lord's Wrath: fire and blood.

    In the third case, in the detailed, parallel account of the one 'seven' in Revelation chapters 13-16 (inclusive) - right after the Harvest for the clouds, which marries with Mt 24:31 and 1Th 4:16-17, in Rev 14:14-16, we see another Angel (to differentiate it from the gathering Angels) who assists an Angel in charge, stoke the winepress of God's Wrath with the wicked who will die in the battles around Jerusalem found in Joel 2 and other OT passages.

    The Day of the Lord is mixed. For us, it is a blessing: our redemption draws near and we are to encourage one another about that. For the wicked, it is a scourge, and an apt punishment for the cruelty they will have inflicted upon us during the Great Tribulation and their overall disobedience to God.

    The Day of the Lord is when we are first rescued from this world and taken to the barn of Heaven, and then God's Wrath befalls those who are left behind to be burned In the field of this world. It will be as it was with Noah and Lot.
     
  6. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    I totally agree.
     
  7. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    The 5th Seal Martyr's Rev 6:9-11 NIV vs. The Great Multitude Rev 7:9-17 NIV

    These two groups are not the same people. The Great Multitude are the raptured church from all nations Rev 7:9 NIV. The rapture comes after the Great Tribulation and before the Day of the Lord Matt 24:29 NIV, 1 Thess 5:9 NIV, Rev 7:14 NIV, and nowhere does it say in Rev 7:9-17 NIV that the Great Multitude have been martyred.

    1. Rev 6:9 NIV are specifically martyr's. Rev 7:9 NIV says they are from every nation.
    2. Rev 6:9-10 NIV martyr's are under the altar asking God to avenge their blood. Rev 7:10 NIV great multitude are before the throne proclaiming salvation to God.
    3. Rev 6:9 NIV martyr's have souls. Rev 7:9 NIV great multitude have bodies.
    4. Rev 6:9 NIV martyr's are known as being slain for the Word of God. Rev 7:13 NIV great multitude are not recognized.

    - ATP
     
  8. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Marcus and ATP, you are both too confused and locked into false theories for me attempt correction.
    Only when things happen, will you and millions of other Christians finally understand. Isaiah 32:3-4

    When the Lord does send fire, and be sure He will, at least you will know what's happening.
     
  9. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Coming from someone who knows a coronal mass ejection happens on the Day of the Lord based on his reading of Isaiah 30:26, I think that those who look forward to our redemption drawing near on that Day have a much better understanding of end-time prophecy than you, rabbi keras.

    And we won't be here for when it does all burn from the 1st Trumpet Angel's fire.
     
  10. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Marcus, Not only do you deny the truth of what the prophets tell us, you don't bother or can't understand the scientific facts of CME's.

    Your belief in a rapture to heaven is totally unscriptural.

    Your attitude towards me shows a similar style to those who threw Christians to the lions, or burned 'heretic's' at the stake.
    When the Lord's true righteous people go to live in the holy Land, I doubt whether you will make it.
     
  11. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    rabbi keras - take your silly fantasy somewhere else, like bible forums, where you don't seem to be able to get any traction with your peculiar ideas either.

    So although I have given a scientific explanation of what a CME is and does - supposedly I don't know anything according to rabbi keras.

    Of course, the one thing missing is how a CME will make the sun shine seven times brighter. Indeed, rabbi keras has yet to explain how a CME is going to burn a third of the earth and have that fantastic explanation come anywhere close to scientific fact.
     
  12. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    Fanatics always go to extremes.

    According to god keras, I'm going to Hell.
     
  13. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Rapture is after the Great Tribulation and before the Day of the Lord at the 7th seal. Is it not obvious to you? - ATP
     
  14. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    I think the Day of the Lord encompasses the sixth Seal, which shows the aftermath of the Rapture, through the Wrath of God which also comes with the Day of the Lord with the 1st Trumpet of the Scroll.
     
  15. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    You make a good point Marcus. However, take a look at Joel. He says the cosmic disturbances precede the Day of the Lord, probably minutes apart I would think...Joel 2:30-31 NIV I will show wonders in the heavens and on the earth, blood and fire and billows of smoke. 31The sun will be turned to darkness and the moon to blood before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the Lord.

    Keras is adding two comings, but in reality that is not biblical. The Second Coming of Jesus Christ is not based on one coming inside one event. The Second Coming consists of one coming inside multiple events which include the rapture, God's wrath of trumpets and bowls, and Jesus himself in bodily form landing on the Mount of Olives.

    Whenever scripture mentions the word "coming" it is always singular and never plural. Take the word "coming" translated "parousia" for instance. We can clearly see that His coming begins with rapture...

    Matt 24:27 NIV For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man.

    Matt 24:37 NIV As it was in the days of Noah, so it will be at the coming (parousia) of the Son of Man.

    1 Cor 15:23 NIV But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes (parousia), those who belong to him.

    1 Thess 4:15 NIV According to the Lord's word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left until the coming (parousia) of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep.

    2 Thess 2:1-2 NIV Concerning the coming (parousia) of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you, brothers and sisters, 2not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by the teaching allegedly from us—whether by a prophecy or by word of mouth or by letter—asserting that the day of the Lord has already come.

    2 Thess 2:8 NIV And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming (parousia).
     
  16. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Revelation 3:10 Explanation

    What this verse is saying is that, "You the church of Philadelphia have kept the word of my patience in the (first 3.5 years of birth pains and false prophets Matt 24:4-8 NIV), therefore I will keep you from the hour of trial (the Great Tribulation), either by you fleeing into the mountains Matt 24:16 NIV or by divine protection on earth. If you do not keep God's word you will not be protected during the Great Tribulation Rev 2:20-23 NIV."

    Notice the word "hupomoné" here which means a "remaining behind, endurance, steadfastness, patient waiting for". These believers were patient and kept the word of God in the first 3.5 years of birth pains and false prophets, so God will keep them from the hour of testing which is the Great Tribulation...

    1 Thess 1:3 NIV We remember before our God and Father your work produced by faith, your labor prompted by love, and your endurance (hupomoné) inspired by hope in our Lord Jesus Christ.

    2 Thess 1:4 NIV Therefore, among God's churches we boast about your perseverance (hupomoné) and faith in all the persecutions and trials you are enduring .

    Rev 3:10 NIV Since you have kept my command to endure patiently (hupomoné), I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come on the whole world to test the inhabitants of the earth.

    Rev 13:10 NIV "If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity they will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword they will be killed." This calls for patient endurance (hupomoné) and faithfulness on the part of God's people.

    Rev 14:9-12 NIV A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: “If anyone worships the beast and its image and receives its mark on their forehead or on their hand, 10they, too, will drink the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath. They will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. 11And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever and ever. There will be no rest day or night for those who worship the beast and its image, or for anyone who receives the mark of its name.” 12This calls for patient endurance (hupomoné) on the part of the people of God who keep his commands and remain faithful to Jesus.
     
  17. Marcus O'Reillius

    Marcus O'Reillius Active Member

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    That is true, and the sun/moon/star event which precedes the Day of the Lord is found in both Jesus' Olivet Discourse (Mt 24:29) and with the sixth Seal as the second event happening there.

    Next in those two linear narratives, which both give their events in sequence, immediately after the sun/moon/star event we see the Sign of the Son of Man / Scrolling of the Sky.
    I put it to you that this event is one and the same.

    In the Olivet Discourse, after the sign of the Son of Man comes the gathering of the Elect.
    In the Seal/Scroll chronology with the sixth Seal - after the scrolling comes other events, a second earthquake, the 144,000 and then the Great Multitude.
    I put it to you that the gathering of the Elect results in the Great Multitude arriving in the barn of Heaven before the Father.

    Thus, while the sun/moon/star event precedes the Day of the Lord, or heralds it as I like to say, yet the Day of the Lord with Jesus' parousia begins concurrent with the sixth Seal.
     
  18. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Yes. I agree the elect and the great multitude are the church raptured. :)

    Also, your thoughts on post 327. I'm sure you will agree. I think we are on the same page with Rev 7.

    And post 336.
     
  19. keras

    keras Writer of Bible study guides

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    Is the truth of what all the prophets tell us will happen, not obvious to you?

    [SIZE=medium]The Redemption of the Lord’s people, by Isaiah ben Amos[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Isaiah, the Lord’s servant – his task is to prophesy the restoration of the 12 tribes of Jacob, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]to bring back the survivors of Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], so that the Lord’s salvation may reach all of the earth[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE][SIZE=small]1[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]The remnant of Judah left in Zion will be called holy, when the Lord cleanses the Land by a spirit of judgement burning like fire.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]2[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] The sun will shine with seven times its normal strength on the Day the Lord saves His people.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]3 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Then His glory will provide a refuge and shelter[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]On that Day, a remnant of Israel, the survivors of Jacob will[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]return to God, their strength.[/SIZE] [SIZE=small]4[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]On that Day, the Lord will exert His power a second time[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] to recover the remnant of His people from the four corners of the earth. He will make a signal to the nations and gather those dispersed from Judah and Israel. Enmity between Judah and Israel will cease.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]5[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Listen, in silence, My people in the coasts and islands,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] together we go to the place of judgement[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Israel, My servants summoned from the ends of the earth[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], the furthest corners. Have no fear, you will be strengthened and helped, upheld by My Right hand[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE][SIZE=small]6[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]I shall give descendants to Israel and Judah, heirs to my chosen people, they will take possession of My Land. Those who forsake the Lord are destined for the sword.[/SIZE] [SIZE=small]7[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Go out, clear a road for My people, hoist a signal, see your deliverance comes. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Comfort My people, their term of bondage is served, their penalty paid.[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] Clear a road through the desert for the Lord – level the ground.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]I am about to do something new, can you see it? I shall make a way through the desert and I shall provide water so that My people may drink. They will praise Me[/SIZE][SIZE=medium].[/SIZE][SIZE=small]8[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]For a passing moment, I forsook you, but with tender affection, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]I shall bring you home again[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. I swear that My covenant of peace will never be shaken[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]9 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Arise and shine, Jerusalem, your sons and daughters are coming from afar – sailing along like clouds, vessels from the coasts and islands, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]returning your children from distant places[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], to the honour of God, for He has given you glory.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]10[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]They are coming from far away. My holy Land, not forgotten, it is inscribed onto the palms of My hands. All your children are assembling, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]flooding back to the Land[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. So many that the place is too cramped. The nations will bear your sons and daughters in their arms. [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]None who look to Me will be disappointed.[/SIZE] [SIZE=small]11 [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]You will go out with joy, be led forth in peace. The Land and trees will be joyful and thriving.[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]I, the Lord, will provide for their needs.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]12[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]He who makes Me his refuge will possess the Land[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. Peace for all, both far and near, I shall heal Israel, says the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]The Lords people, set free, will come back in triumph. Gladness and joy will come upon them and suffering and sorrow will flee away[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. [/SIZE][SIZE=small]13[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]A spirit from on high is sent upon us. Justice and righteousness in the Land, His people are living happy and peaceful.[/SIZE] [SIZE=small]14[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]I am Almighty God, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]for My sake, I will wipe out your transgressions[/SIZE][SIZE=medium]. Israel, never forget Me.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]15[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]You are My witnesses[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], My servants, chosen by Me. Trust Me and know that[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]I am your God.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]16[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]The Lord will make a new Covenant with Israel.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]17[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=medium]Buildings will be restored,[/SIZE][SIZE=medium] rebuilt on ancient foundations. If you keep the Commandments, then you will find joy in the Lord and the Land of your father, Jacob, will be yours to enjoy.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]18 [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]Others will serve you, [/SIZE][SIZE=medium]while you become priests of the Lord[/SIZE][SIZE=medium], and will enjoy the wealth of the nations.[/SIZE][SIZE=small]19[/SIZE] [SIZE=medium]Ref: REB. Verses abridged.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]1/ Isaiah 49:5-6[/SIZE]The Redemption, Restoration and Rejoining of all Israel – the twelve tribes and all those grafted in by reason of righteousness. Deuteronomy 30:1-10, Jeremiah 31:7-9, Ezekiel 37:1-28, Acts 26:6-7, Ephesians 2:11-18
    [SIZE=11pt]2/ Isaiah 4:3-6 - [/SIZE]All of the holy Land will be cleared and cleansed, only a remnant will survive in Jerusalem. Ezekiel 21:4, Jeremiah 7:34, Zephaniah 1:18, Micah 5:11, Jeremiah 4:26-28, Isaiah 6:11-13, Isaiah 29:4, Zechariah 13:8-9
    [SIZE=11pt]3/ Isaiah 30:26a – [/SIZE]A Coronal Mass Ejection will explode out from the sun, perfectly fulfilling all the many prophesies about this forthcoming Day of the Lord’s wrath. Deut. 32:22, 34-35, Isa. 66:15-16, Psalm 97:3-5, Malachi 4:1,3, Jer. 25:33, Rev. 6:12-17
    [SIZE=11pt]4/ Isaiah 10:20-21[/SIZE] The Lord promises protection for His people and all who call upon His Name, on that Day. Joel 3:16, Isaiah 26:20-21, Zeph.2:3, Zech.9:15-16, Prov. 3:25-26
    [SIZE=11pt]5/ Isaiah 11:11-13[/SIZE]The exile punishment of the 12 tribes of Judah and Israel will be completed. Isaiah 40:1-2, 2 Chronicles 6:36-39, Jeremiah 29:13-14
    [SIZE=11pt]6/ Isaiah 41:1-10 - [/SIZE]They will re-join and gather at the place of judgement in preparation to enter the holy Land. Ezekiel 20:34-36, Isaiah 27:12-13, Amos 3:9
    [SIZE=11pt]7/ Isaiah[/SIZE] 65:9-12- Those judged righteous will take possession of the holy Land, Those who forsake the Lord will die. Ezekiel 20:37-38, Jeremiah 5:26, Isaiah 1:25, Isa. 10:17-22
    [SIZE=11pt]8/ Isaiah 62:10, Isaiah 40:1-3, Isa. 43:19-21 –[/SIZE] The Lord’s people will march into the Land with great joy and thanksgiving. Psalms 68:7-9 & 19-27, Isaiah 42:16, Isa. 40:26-31
    [SIZE=11pt]9/ Isaiah 54:7-10[/SIZE]The punishment by exile for Israel and Judah was for a decreed period. Now the Lord will make a new Covenant with them. Ezekiel 4:4-6, Leviticus 26:18,24,28, Ezekiel 11:26-28
    [SIZE=11pt]10/ Isaiah 60:1-9, Isa 49:8-23 –[/SIZE] His people, brought to the holy Land, all that area from the Nile to the Euphrates. Many millions, all true believers in the Lord. Isaiah 66:18-20, Zechariah 10:8-10, Micah 7:11-12, Isaiah 49:1-23
    [SIZE=11pt]11/ Isaiah 49:14-21 -[/SIZE]All who trust in the Lord and call upon His Name will be saved. Acts 2:21
    [SIZE=11pt]12/ Isaiah 55:12-13, Isaiah 41:17[/SIZE]The Lord will send rain and the Land will be regenerated. He will provide food and water in plenty. Ezekiel 36:8-12, Isa. 35:1-2, Psalm 68:7-10
    [SIZE=11pt]13/ Isaiah 57:13 & 19 [/SIZE]At the present time, Judah has possession of a part of the holy Land, but soon all the Israelites will live in all their heritage in peace and security. Hosea 2:14-23, Psalms 69:22-36, Ezekiel 28:24-26, Revelation 7:9-10
    [SIZE=11pt]14/ Isaiah 32:15-16, Isaiah 51:11, Isaiah 35:10[/SIZE] - God’s Spirit is sent onto His people. The Lord will heal them spiritually and physically. Psalm 126:1-5, Psalm 147:2-3, Isa. 30:26b, Isa. 44:1-5, Eze. 11:19-20, Eze. 37:1-14, Acts 2:17-21
    [SIZE=11pt]15/ Isaiah 44:22[/SIZE]Their sins are forgiven. 1 Kings 8:46-52, Psalms 79:8-9, Micah 7:18, Hosea 14:1-7, John 1:29, Hebrews 8:12
    [SIZE=11pt]16/ Isaiah 43:10-11[/SIZE]All this will happen in the end times, before the Return of Jesus for His Millennial reign. They will be ‘a light to the nations’ and will send out 144,000 missionaries to proclaim the Gospel of the coming Kingdom of Jesus. Isaiah 66:19, Revelation 14:1-7
    [SIZE=11pt]17/ Isaiah 59:21[/SIZE]The Mosaic Covenant is superseded by a New Covenant. Jer. 31:31-34, Jer. 32:36-41, Hosea 2:19-23, Eph. 2:15, Hebrews 8:7-13
    [SIZE=11pt]18/ Isaiah 58:12-14[/SIZE]The New Israelites will build a Temple on Mt Zion. Eze. 40-44, Haggai 2:6-9, Zech. 1:16-17, Zech. 6:15, Zech. 8:9, 2 Thess. 2:3-4
    [SIZE=11pt]19/[/SIZE] Isaiah 61:5-6Amazing promises of God to His people in the new nation of Beulah. Isaiah 62:1-5, Isaiah 66:21-24, Hosea 14:4-7, Psalms 102:15-22, Colossians 1:11-12






     
  20. ATP

    ATP New Member

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    Ugh. keras, you have to tell me what you believe first. you are post trib rapture correct?
    So you believe the great tribulation is all of 3.5 years, then rapture comes at the end of 7 years?
    And after the 7 years, the Day of the Lord begins?
    Do you believe the Great Tribulation and the Day of the Lord are the same event or separate?
    What is your end times chronology? Tell me what you believe and we'll go from there.
     
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