There are those who do not believe in a Rapture(Caught up) for the Elect

[afaithfulone4u]

But these verses show that not only are they caught up, but it also says THEIR days shall be shortened because if they were left on the earth they would not make it for not many flesh shall survive.
Matt 24:21-24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV
Mark 13:19-20
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV

Many think it is a sad thing that someone, in these days passes on, but maybe this is God's mercy for they have been spared from the Great Tribulation to come.

Here is also two accounts of Christ appearing, one is for his saintswho have remained alive to meet them in the air when they are caught up and one is for armageddon the great supper of God with his saints behind him to judge the dead(Spiritual dead that is).
Rapture/Caught up:
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they {ELECT ONLY}see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Here is where all men will see him, and the trumpet will sound and all the elect are gathered from HEAVEN only for Armageddon.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

I realize that the truth that I show is hard on the ears because we have only been able to hear the smooth things, but everything I show, comes from the Bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit who teaches me.
I study with no man.

 

[Raeneske]

But these verses show that not only are they caught up, but it also says THEIR days shall be shortened because if they were left on the earth they would not make it for not many flesh shall survive.
Matt 24:21-24
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV
Mark 13:19-20
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV

Many think it is a sad thing that someone, in these days passes on, but maybe this is God's mercy for they have been spared from the Great Tribulation to come.

Here is also two accounts of Christ appearing, one is for his saintswho have remained alive to meet them in the air when they are caught up and one is for armageddon the great supper of God with his saints behind him to judge the dead(Spiritual dead that is).
Rapture/Caught up:
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they {ELECT ONLY}see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Here is where all men will see him, and the trumpet will sound and all the elect are gathered from HEAVEN only for Armageddon.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

I realize that the truth that I show is hard on the ears because we have only been able to hear the smooth things, but everything I show, comes from the Bible with the guidance of the Holy Spirit who teaches me.
I study with no man.

So, what exactly is this trying to prove?

I do not believe in a Secret Rapture, or that Jesus will come as a thief, because we are told that He shall not come as a thief to those who are watching for His coming:

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This coming though is at the end of the world, as the Book of Revelation (Chpater 16, I wont post the entire chapter) shows, the 6th Plague, and then the coming, then the 7th Plague.

What seems like the smooth thing, is teaching the church they won't be here while the plagues on dropping on the inhabitants of the earth. A thousand shall fall by your left, 10,000 by your right, but to you it shall not come.

Psalm 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

So, what exactly are you trying to say?

 

[Foreigner]

If the Rapture is true, it would be a lot of things.

One of the things it would NOT be was a "Secret Rapture."

 

[afaithfulone4u]

So, what exactly is this trying to prove?

I do not believe in a Secret Rapture, or that Jesus will come as a thief, because we are told that He shall not come as a thief to those who are watching for His coming:

1 Thessalonians 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

This coming though is at the end of the world, as the Book of Revelation (Chpater 16, I wont post the entire chapter) shows, the 6th Plague, and then the coming, then the 7th Plague.

What seems like the smooth thing, is teaching the church they won't be here while the plagues on dropping on the inhabitants of the earth. A thousand shall fall by your left, 10,000 by your right, but to you it shall not come.

Psalm 91:7 A thousand shall fall at thy side, and ten thousand at thy right hand; but it shall not come nigh thee.

So, what exactly are you trying to say?

This is true, They will know because they are watching and just as Noah knew 7 days before so has the elect known for 7 years.
Didn't I say that only THEY the elect will see him and do you know what day that the thief comes?
No, the elect does not go through the great tribulation they are taken out Before, however those not worthy to escape do go through the last 3-1/2yrs.

Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
KJV
Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The man child is not Jesus, for Jesus is telling John of things to take place and Jesus ascended up, not caught up as in quickly! This is the birth of the HOLY ONES the body of Christ who were chosen to rule and reign with Christ for the 1,000 yrs. This will happen on a Feast of Tabernacles where the earthly tents are exchanged in the twinkling of an eye for the heavenly tents/bodies/tabernacles.




Rev 12:5-13:1
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

 

[Raeneske]

This is true, They will know because they are watching and just as Noah knew 7 days before so has the elect known for 7 years.
Didn't I say that only THEY the elect will see him and do you know what day that the thief comes?
No, the elect does not go through the great tribulation they are taken out Before, however those not worthy to escape do go through the last 3-1/2yrs.

Rev 3:10
10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.
KJV
Luke 21:36
36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

The man child is not Jesus, for Jesus is telling John of things to take place and Jesus ascended up, not caught up as in quickly! This is the birth of the HOLY ONES the body of Christ who were chosen to rule and reign with Christ for the 1,000 yrs. This will happen on a Feast of Tabernacles where the earthly tents are exchanged in the twinkling of an eye for the heavenly tents/bodies/tabernacles.




Rev 12:5-13:1
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

The hour of temptation is when the world is overcharged with such deceptions, and temptations that they fall from it. To pray escape that does not mean you will not be on the earth. It means you are saved from that, and you will be worthy, and you will suffer, and drink the cup. You will suffer, must suffer like Christ did. You will be on the planet, and after sixth plague, as shown per Revelation 16, then Christ shall come.

I won't get into a 7 year tribulation conversation, it's based off Daniel 9:27, which I disagree how the modern church is using it.

 

[Rex]

I don't think very many don't believe in the rapture, the indifference seems to be is, when and who is involved as well as the position of the church, or the common separation of the Jews from the gentile church in the end times.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

I don't think very many don't believe in the rapture, the indifference seems to be is, when and who is involved as well as the position of the church, or the common separation of the Jews from the gentile church in the end times.

You make a good point Rex , and I tend to feel the same way

We can make a weak case that the Gentile Christian Church is "The Elect"
But we can make a much stronger and more convincing case that Israel is "The Elect"

A few points to ponder is that Matthew 24:22 and Mark 13:20 were spoken to the Jews ........ the Church was not yet in existence (The church started at Pentecost) ..... so for all practical purposes Jesus is teaching Jews at that moment.

Another thing we should make note of is that in Mark 13:20 it says ....... "Whom he hath chosen" ........ the word "chosen" usually refers to God's Chosen People Israel

We (Christians) have personally and individually chosen Christ
But God Himself chose Israel (Elect)

Of course Israel is disobedient and in unbelief as far as the gospel is concerned ..... but they are still the chosen people because God Himself said they are .

.

 

[veteran]

The whole idea of a so-called rapture PER God's Word, is about ALL on earth being 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye" like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, pulling from Isaiah 25. It will occur upon ALL peoples alive on earth, not just a select few.

The reason? That event on the last day when Christ returns is to end... this present world time, and usher all peoples... into Christ's Milennium reign with His elect. This is why Rev.1 tells us EVERY EYE will see Christ coming in the clouds with Glory, including those who pierced Him.

Obviously, that is a LOT... different than what the false rapture preachers are teaching today. But no problem, all the believer need do is QUIT listening to those hirelings that suck people's money and instead listen to God directly in His Word of Truth.

 

[Arnie Manitoba]

The whole idea of a so-called rapture PER God's Word, is about ALL on earth being 'changed' at the "twinkling of an eye" like Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15, pulling from Isaiah 25. It will occur upon ALL peoples alive on earth, not just a select few.

.
I have always understood that "ALL" in 1 cor 15 was referring to "All the Christians" ........ because that is what the whole topic was about ...... some christian believers in the early church had passed away and everybody thought that they had missed out on the coming of the Lord.

The author of Corinthians then explained that the dead would not miss out on anything ...... because they would be raised first ..... then those still alive would be changed and ALL would meet the Lord in the air.

It cannot be talking about the unsaved ..... they would not be going to Jesus .

 

[veteran]

.
I have always understood that "ALL" in 1 cor 15 was referring to "All the Christians" ........ because that is what the whole topic was about ...... some christian believers in the early church had passed away and everybody thought that they had missed out on the coming of the Lord.

The author of Corinthians then explained that the dead would not miss out on anything ...... because they would be raised first ..... then those still alive would be changed and ALL would meet the Lord in the air.

It cannot be talking about the unsaved ..... they would not be going to Jesus .

That's how it's most often taught, even among many post-trib Churches. But that's not the idea per the Isaiah 25 chapter where Paul was pulling from about that event of being changed at the twinkling of an eye. On the day of Christ's coming, the veil of the Heavenly is going to be removed, for everyone, and we all shall be changed to the spiritual body state, including the wicked.

The "spiritual body" Paul spoke of does not mean automatic Salvation through Christ Jesus. This is why the spiritually dead of Rev.20:5 will still be subject to a "second death" which is the casting of the spiritual body with soul into the lake of fire at the end of Christ's future thousand years reign.

You did catch that the "resurection of damnation" Jesus mentioned in John 5:28-29 is indeed... a 'resurrection', didn't you? Christ gave that to happen at the time of His coming, not at the end of His Milennium reign. The Isaiah 25 Scripture includes the idea of all nations. There will be a gathering of Christ's elect to Him, there will be a separation between His sheep and the goats (wicked). But all will be changed, because when Christ comes this flesh age will be over, done, which is why the ONLY type death remaining for some will be the "second death".

 

[bling]

If you want a scholarly approach to this:


http://www.hcumedia.com/uploads/The_Rapture.pdf

 

[biggandyy]

It's scholarly only if you agree with amillennialism. Fair was Dean of Heritage Christian University, part of the Churches of Christ and they are decidedly amillennial.

But on to his "scholarship", the very first point he makes in his second list is demonstrably incorrect. The word "rapture" is found in scripture, just not in the narrow list of translations he provides. In fact, the word rapture has been in use for more than 1,800 years in the Latin Vulgate, so it has a track record much longer than even the vaunted King James.

Take it for what it's worth, but when he leads off with an obvious bias as that, I need not read further to realize it will be a hatchet job on Rapture doctrine.

 

[KingJ]

I agree with your view afaithfulone4u!

Simple Christian common sense tells me that we can't be here for God's wrath in the form of the seventh seal (7 trumpets). God does not strike His own hand. His saints and the Holy Spirit will be gone before the tribulation. We will not be taken half way either!!! How can the anti-christ do as he pleases in the first half if we are still around???????

The anti-christ is a concoction of the devil. Unlike Hitler (human with free will and the ability / freedom by God to exercise it)) He will be possessed by a powerful demon. We can cast the demon back to hell, can't we?????? or into swine....surely?????

Of course we can!!! The anti-christ can do NOTHING if the saints are here! and God ALWAYS saves His people from His wrath!!!

 

[bling]

It's scholarly only if you agree with amillennialism. Fair was Dean of Heritage Christian University, part of the Churches of Christ and they are decidedly amillennial.

But on to his "scholarship", the very first point he makes in his second list is demonstrably incorrect. The word "rapture" is found in scripture, just not in the narrow list of translations he provides. In fact, the word rapture has been in use for more than 1,800 years in the Latin Vulgate, so it has a track record much longer than even the vaunted King James.

Take it for what it's worth, but when he leads off with an obvious bias as that, I need not read further to realize it will be a hatchet job on Rapture doctrine.

Dr. Fair said:

THE TERM RAPTURE:


1. The word Rapture is not found in any of our major translations of the Bible, not in the KJV,the ASV, the RSV, or the NIV.

2. The English word rapture means the act of seizing and carrying away, the act of carrying of being carried away, the act of carrying a person from one place to another, a state of passionate excitement, the expression of ecstatic feeling
(Oxford English Dictionary, 1972).

3. As it is used in the sense we are studying it has reference to the coming of Jesus to carry away Christians from the earth and the tribulations about to descend on humanity for their ungodliness.


And later said:

In one sense this “snatching up” of those who are alive when Jesus returns could be described as a “rapture” if one understands eh root meaning of the English word “rapture” as a catching up or carrying away (cf. the Oxford English Dictionary definition), but this is far removed from the Dispensational Left Behind concept of an intermediate coming or rapture!

 

[biggandyy]

Then he is arguing Scripture against a TV show??? My goodness, is he a scholar or a TV Guide columnist?

 

[pompadour]

I agree with your view afaithfulone4u!

Simple Christian common sense tells me that we can't be here for God's wrath in the form of the seventh seal (7 trumpets). God does not strike His own hand. His saints and the Holy Spirit will be gone before the tribulation. We will not be taken half way either!!! How can the anti-christ do as he pleases in the first half if we are still around???????

The anti-christ is a concoction of the devil. Unlike Hitler (human with free will and the ability / freedom by God to exercise it)) He will be possessed by a powerful demon. We can cast the demon back to hell, can't we?????? or into swine....surely?????

Of course we can!!! The anti-christ can do NOTHING if the saints are here! and God ALWAYS saves His people from His wrath!!!

King J. Your common sense statement is the trump card for the pre trib rapture in my opinion. it is the point I make when talking about pre trib. The Bible said that the Anti-Christ can't ( CAN NOT ) be revealed till the restrainer be removed. The Holy Spirit, IS the restrainer, the Holy Spirit indwells all believers, Jesus said " I will never leave you nor forsake you " When the Holy Spirit is removed the believers will go also. I don't see how it could be any other way.
Pomp.

 

[forrestcupp]

First off, I'll say that I believe in either a pre or mid-Tribulation rapture. But it almost seems like you're using slight of hand to try to prove a point.

Rapture/Caught up:
Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they {ELECT ONLY}see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

Here is where all men will see him, and the trumpet will sound and all the elect are gathered from HEAVEN only for Armageddon.

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

What in the world are you trying to pull? In the Mark reference, you put the words "{ELECT ONLY}" in there. The Bible doesn't even hint that it's only the elect that sees Him. Both of those passages are talking about the exact same event, and neither of them are talking about the rapture.

 

[afaithfulone4u]

First off, I'll say that I believe in either a pre or mid-Tribulation rapture. But it almost seems like you're using slight of hand to try to prove a point.What in the world are you trying to pull? In the Mark reference, you put the words "{ELECT ONLY}" in there. The Bible doesn't even hint that it's only the elect that sees Him. Both of those passages are talking about the exact same event, and neither of them are talking about the rapture.

Yes, whenever I try to show something, I always put it in the brackets so that you will know that this is my words so as not to confuse anyone but it is the truth, didn't you see that it says TO GATHER HIS ELECT?
There are two accounts of his coming. One is where he gathers his ELECT/CHOSEN as in many called few chosen, holy body of Christ from the earth to be CAUGHT UP Rev. 12:5 to meet those asleep in heaven under the altar who have been awakened.
Then you have the gathering of the ELECT who were caught up to come WITH CHRIST for the Great Supper of God, better known as the Wedding Supper of the Lamb. Blessed are they who are called to the wedding supper, because they will be the guests looking down from the sky at the flesh of kings and mighty men who the birds are gorging themselves on. You do not see any place where the believers are caught up only the ELECT who were worthy of ESCAPE.

Matt 24:24
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
KJV
Mark 13:27
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV
Matt 24:31
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV


Col 3:12
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
KJV

Luke 18:7
7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
KJV
Matt 24:22
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
KJV
Mark 13:20
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
KJV
2 Tim 2:10
10 Therefore I endure all things for the elect's sakes, that they may also obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus with eternal glory.
KJV

You do accept scripture as Truth don't you?

 

[forrestcupp]

Yes, whenever I try to show something, I always put it in the brackets so that you will know that this is my words so as not to confuse anyone but it is the truth, didn't you see that it says TO GATHER HIS ELECT?

I may have misunderstood what you were saying. It looked like you were saying that the Mark 13 account was talking about the elect only, while the Matthew 24 account was talking about everyone. But they both say the elect. If there is a pre or mid tribulation rapture, then both of those passages take place after the rapture. In that case, "the elect" is either talking about the Jews who come to Christ, or people who are saved during the tribulation.

There are plenty of other passages besides these that hint about a pre or mid tribulation rapture.

 

[pompadour]

I may have misunderstood what you were saying. It looked like you were saying that the Mark 13 account was talking about the elect only, while the Matthew 24 account was talking about everyone. But they both say the elect. If there is a pre or mid tribulation rapture, then both of those passages take place after the rapture. In that case, "the elect" is either talking about the Jews who come to Christ, or people who are saved during the tribulation.

There are plenty of other passages besides these that hint about a pre or mid tribulation rapture.

I think the Elect ( MAY ) be the 144,000 from the 12 tribes of Israel that are sealed by God.
Pomp.