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Things that are never mentioned in religious churches

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by H. Richard, Jan 26, 2017.

  1. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Gal 2:9
    9 and when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that had been given to me, they gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we should go to the Gentiles and they to the circumcised.
    NKJV
    -
    This agreement between Paul and the 12 is never mentioned in religions

    Acts 11:19
    19 Now those who were scattered after the persecution that arose over Stephen traveled as far as Phoenicia, Cyprus, and Antioch, preaching the word to no one but the Jews only.
    NKJV

    The Jews preached Jesus as their Messiah and King but not that His shed blood pays for all the sins of the world

    Acts 21:19-21
    19 When he had greeted them, he told in detail those things which God had done among the Gentiles through his ministry.

    20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord. And they said to him, "You see, brother, how many myriads of Jews there are who have believed, and they are all zealous for the law;

    21 but they have been informed about you that you teach all the Jews who are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children nor to walk according to the customs.
    NKJV

    Did Paul teach that circumcision was not necessary? Absolutely!

    Gal 5:1-4
    5 Stand fast therefore in the liberty by which Christ has made us free, and do not be entangled again with a yoke of bondage.
    2 Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing.
    3 And I testify again to every man who becomes circumcised that he is a debtor to keep the whole law.
    4 You have become estranged from Christ, you who attempt to be justified by law; you have fallen from grace.
    NKJV
     
  2. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    The larger question is about the rest of the law. You won't get too many folks to argue that we don't have to be circumsized. You get a few that demand we keep the sabbath. Not many, but a few. But there is a while slew of religious folks who demand we keep the rest of the law OR they pick and choose certain points that they believe we should keep.
     
  3. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    You are incorrect. Phillip and Peter are the first to recognize the ministry to the Gentiles. Peter's gospel mirrors that of Paul's.

    The Church is not divided.

    38 And Peter said to them, "Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
    39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself." - Acts 2:38-39

    Peter again teaches:

    18 But what God foretold by the mouth of all the prophets, that his Christ would suffer, he thus fulfilled.
    19 Repent therefore, and turn back, that your sins may be blotted out,
    20 that times of refreshing may come from the presence of the Lord, and that he may send the Christ appointed for you, Jesus,
    21 whom heaven must receive until the time for restoring all the things about which God spoke by the mouth of his holy prophets long ago. - Acts 3:18-21

    And again:

    11 This Jesus is the stone that was rejected by you, the builders, which has become the cornerstone.
    12 And there is salvation in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved." - Acts 4:11-12

    And again:

    30 The God of our fathers raised Jesus, whom you killed by hanging him on a tree.
    31 God exalted him at his right hand as Leader and Savior, to give repentance to Israel and forgiveness of sins.
    32 And we are witnesses to these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him." - Acts 5:30-32

    Phillip's work:

    Then Philip opened his mouth, and beginning with this Scripture he told him the good news about Jesus. - Acts 8:35

    And Peter again:

    So Peter opened his mouth and said: "Truly I understand that God shows no partiality, - Acts 10:34

    To him all the prophets bear witness that everyone who believes in him receives forgiveness of sins through his name." - Acts 10:43

    The proclamation of the Church in Jerusalem:

    When they heard these things they fell silent. And they glorified God, saying, "Then to the Gentiles also God has granted repentance that leads to life." - Acts 11:18

    Then:

    And after there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brothers, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. - Acts 15:7

    There has only been one Gospel. The same Gospel to the Jew and the Greek, only to the Jew first and then to the Gentile.
     
  4. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Today we are not forgiven sins through His name, Today we are forgiven by placing our faith, belief, trust and confidence in Jesus' work on the cross. Our faith is in Jesus' gospel of grace given to Paul for us.

    Even though the scriptures tell us that the gospel given to Paul was HIDDEN in God and revealed to Paul you do not believe it. There are two places in the 4 gospels where Jesus, by His on words said He only came to the house of Israel you continually say he came to the Gentiles too. You don't believe Jesus when you do that.

    It seems to me that your fixation on Peter is not justified. There is only one example in scriptures that tell of Peter going to a Gentile, Cornelius. And Peter didn't do it by choice. God had to let him see that the Gentiles would be included in a dream. So it is not possible that Peter was thinking about the Gentiles being included in Acts 2. The scriptures tell us that Peter was put down for going to a Gentile by the others. It is hard for me to believe that Jesus would set up another religion like the failed Jewish religion.

    The gospel of Grace given to Paul was a HIDDEN gospel never revealed until Jesus sent Paul to the world with it. Men have given Peter as the start of the church for today but the scriptures do not support it. In all of Paul's writings from Rome he never once said that Peter was there.
     
  5. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Here are three other scriptures never taught in religious churches.

    Matt 10:5-7 (NKJ)
    5 These twelve Jesus sent out and commanded them, saying: "Do not go into the way of the Gentiles, and do not enter a city of the Samaritans.
    6 "But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
    7 "And as you go, preach, saying, 'The kingdom of heaven is at hand.'

    Matt 15:23-24 (NKJ)
    23 But He answered her not a word. And His disciples came and urged Him, saying, "Send her away, for she cries out after us."
    24 But He answered and said, "I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

    Paul said: Rom 15:8 (NKJ)
    8 Now I say that Jesus Christ was a minister of the circumcision for the truth of God, to confirm the promises made unto the fathers:

    Note that in Matt 10:5-7 and Matt 15:23-24 Jesus said He did not come EXCEPT to the house of Israel. Jesus came to confirm/fulfill all that was written of Him in the O.T. His mission was to the Jews, not to the Gentiles. This is what Paul meant in Rom 15:8.
     
  6. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Really, then who is the atonement for sin today?

    Oh OK. So IOW we are forgiven our sins through belief in the name of Jesus. Lets just zero in on one section of Scripture. I will bold areas of the text that prove your position to be incorrect.

    1 Some men came down from Judea and began teaching the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.”
    2 And when Paul and Barnabas had great dissension and debate with them, the brethren determined that Paul and Barnabas and some others of them should go up to Jerusalem to the apostles and elders concerning this issue.

    It is important to note Paul was not alone in his missionary work. Barnabas and Paul were both set apart by the church through the order of the Holy Spirit. (Acts 13:2) Their work started in the synagogues to the Jews and proselytes. (Acts 13:5)

    3 Therefore, being sent on their way by the church, they were passing through both Phoenicia and Samaria, describing in detail the conversion of the Gentiles, and were bringing great joy to all the brethren.
    4 When they arrived at Jerusalem, they were received by the church and the apostles and the elders, and they reported all that God had done with them.
    5 But some of the sect of the Pharisees who had believed stood up, saying, “It is necessary to circumcise them and to direct them to observe the Law of Moses.”
    6 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter.
    7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, “Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.

    Here is that gospel of belief...
    Absolute Scriptural evidence that the missionary work to the Gentiles began with Peter! Try to devalue this as much as you like but it does not get more plain. It was God's choice that Peter would first bring the gospel to the Gentiles.

    8 “And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;
    9 and He made no distinction between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith.

    Here is that gospel of faith...

    10 “Now therefore why do you put God to the test by placing upon the neck of the disciples a yoke which neither our fathers nor we have been able to bear?
    11 “But we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they also are.”
    Acts 15:1-11

    Here is that gospel of grace...
    And here also is the singularity of the gospel spoken by Peter as given for both Jews and Gentiles. To the Jew first and then to the Gentile. The gospel given to Paul is the same gospel first given to Peter. The inclusion of the Gentiles was revealed to Peter in a vision around the same time Phillip was preaching Jesus to the Ethiopian eunuch. You are correct in that it was a mystery hidden in God, although it was alluded to in Scripture (Genesis 12:3, Hosea 2:23) and was clearly revealed to Peter first through the Acts 2 vision. Jesus' earthly mission was primarily to the house of Israel, yet the woman by the well was a Sumerian. He also healed the Centurion's servant. Upon fulfilling the Law Jesus then became the atonement for sin being hung on a tree. He resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father (Acts 7:55) being named both Lord and Savior. This is the gospel Peter preached to both Jew and Gentile long before Paul.
     
  7. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

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    It is true that Peter was sent to Cornelius (a gentile) before Paul's time had fully come. But here are some other pertinent scriptures:

    Galatians 2:7 KJV
    But contrariwise, when they saw that the gospel of the uncircumcision was committed unto me, as the gospel of the circumcision was unto Peter;

    The next two verses from that chapter further confirm that Peter was sent to the Jews and Paul to the gentiles.

    Later in that chapter Paul details the confrontation with Peter for withdrawing himself from the gentiles when James' men came around. So clearly Peter had fellowship with the gentiles. Also what is clear is, again, he was sent to the circumcision.
     
  8. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    Where do we find Peter's gospel? Where do we find Peter saying his gospel was hidden in God? where do we find Peter telling the Jews they did not have to be circumsied. If a person reads Acts 21:20- with open eyes they will see that the James and the others were certainly not teaches what Paul was teaching. Only a blind person can not see that Paul and James were not teaching the same thing.. If they were teaching the same thing then the Jews would have been upset at them too.

    Anyone reading the Bible can know that Jesus was the Messiah and King to the Jews. It was this that the Jews rejected. To believe in His name means to believe He is the Messiah and King.

    But today that will not save anyone. Even the devil believes Jesus is the Messiah and King of the Jews.

    Today it is faith in the work of Jesus on the cross where He atoned (paid) for all the sins of mankind that saves a person. A person must believe, have faith in, have trust in, have confidence that Jesus' shed blood has paid for their sins; that his/her sins are atoned (paid) for on the cross.

    The scriptures say that all the sins of the world were placed on Jesus. So what sin is left that condemns a person? NONE! Religion teaches that a person has to repent and ask for forgiveness of their sins. Why does a person have to do this since all their sins have been forgiven by the work of Jesus (God) on the cross?

    People in religions seem to believe that if they say they repent of their sins, try not to sin anymore and support a church they are saved. But all of that is the work of men and women. But it is a fact supported by scriptures that only faith, belief, trust and confidence in the shed blood on the cross honors Jesus.

    Heb 10:26-29 --- The Just Live by Faith
    26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,
    27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries.
    28 Anyone who has rejected Moses' law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses.
    29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace?
    NKJV

    The sin mentioned in verse 26 is the sin of unbelief. For Jesus' shed blood is the truth and if your faith is not in it you are trampling underfoot Jesus' shed blood on the cross.

    I notice you do not wish to comment on the three verses I gave in post #5 where Jesus said He only came to the Jews in the house of Israel.
     
  9. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Richard,

    In my reading I came across this.

    “The light for the Gentiles” is also assigned as a specific mission for the servant. If we are correct in seeing that servant is a corporate term here, then it is clear that Israel is being addressed and encouraged by the Lord to be that witness to the Gentiles. Yahweh will take hold of that remnant of Israel by the hand to guide them in this work of witnessing, just as certainly as he called them in righteousness. Is this not why the apostle Paul in Acts 13:47 could take this very same text and declare, “For this is what the Lord has commanded us [Paul and Barnabas]: ‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles, that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth’ ” (italics mine)? Later in his career, Paul stood on trial for his life before King Agrippa in Acts 26:22 and affirmed: “I am saying nothing beyond what the prophets and Moses said would happen.” He did not see himself as an innovator, or as one who introduced meanings that were not already in the text. Therefore, it is hard to see his application of the words of Isaiah 42[…]”

    Excerpt From: Walter C. Kaiser, Jr. “Mission in the Old Testament.” iBooks. https://itun.es/us/nWskF.l

    To be a light to the nations, a mandate given by God through the OT prophets, Paul understood as the spread of the Gospel. This gospel is the same gospel that Peter preached. Paul did not have a new gospel, but a new audience. The Israelites did not associate themselves, or at least tried their best to isolate themselves, with the Gentiles. Israel failed in their mandate so this mandate was given to a different people group that extended beyond all national boarders. It is now the Christian's mandate to be a light to humanity. To the Jew first the mandate was given and then to the Gentile.

    It is clear you believe in a divided message even as I made a sound biblical case the gospel is a unified message for both the Jew and Gentile. Paul and James both preach a message of grace. The Jerusalem council placed no conditions on the grace of God, rather they made moral mandates concerning the relation between Jews and Gentile. Acts 15:6 explains the leadership of the the church was in agreement on the gospel message. To have belief in the name of Jesus means the exact same as believing in Jesus' atoning death and resurrection. I showed you Peter's gospel in Acts 15. He specifically mentions belief, faith, and grace. You refuse to recognize it. Speaking about both Jews and Gentiles:

    11 “But we believe that we (Jews) are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they (Gentiles) also are.”
    Acts 15:1-11

    Also I did speak to those verses:

    Jesus' earthly mission was primarily to the house of Israel, yet the woman by the well was a Sumerian. He also healed the Centurion's servant. Upon fulfilling the Law Jesus then became the atonement for sin being hung on a tree. He resurrected and ascended to the right hand of the Father (Acts 7:55) being named both Lord and Savior. This is the gospel Peter preached to both Jew and Gentile long before Paul.

    Shalom for now!

    Something to add:
    Acts 1:8
    8 but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth.”

    cf: Mark 16:15, Matthew 28:19
    Jesus clearly states the apostles were to witness to all the nations.

    Isaiah 49:6
    He says, "It is too small a thing that You should be My Servant To raise up the tribes of Jacob and to restore the preserved ones of Israel; I will also make You a light of the nations So that My salvation may reach to the end of the earth."

    ​And it was prophesied of in the OT.
     
  10. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    How can the nation that rejected Jesus be a light to the Gentiles?
     
  11. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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  12. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    when i hear "witness" in this context i am of course encouraged to accept "testimony" as a vocal thing, something someone is telling me, right. When i suspect that that is not what "witness" means at all.
     
  13. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Because the Servant is both Jesus and His saints. As I said they failed in their mandate. It was given to the apostles, who in turn extended that to all believers.
     
  14. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Sure but this clears any uncertainty:

    And he said to them, "Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. - Mark 16:15

    And because some manuscripts do not include that verse we have:

    Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, - Matthew 28:19

    Jesus' commission is plain. All nations are included.
     
  15. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    This thread was about scriptures that are not taught in religious churches.

    But most all of the replies are religious doctrines that say nothing about the scriptures listed..

    I can understand those that wish to support their religious ideoiogy, which these scriptures do not support, will simply ignore them and bury them under a lot of words. But to attach all their doctrines to this thread is a distraction.
     
  16. H. Richard

    H. Richard Well-Known Member

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    ***
    Acts 15:9-11
    9 and made no distinction between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith.
    10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
    11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they."
    NKJV

    It seem to me that Peter is supporting Paul and is ready to believe that the Gentiles do not have to follow the Law of Moses. His having to say this is evidence that the other apostles did not know it.

    In verse 10 are you saying that circumcision was the thing that was the Jews were not able to bare? I believe it was the 10 Laws of Moses.

    Peter never seem to say that it is faith in the shed blood of Jesus. On the day of Pentecost Peter says the cross was something for the Jews to be ashamed of. Paul says the cross is something in which to glory.
     
  17. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    brings up a great point--how did they "preach the word" if the NT hadn't been written yet? Because the Book is not the Word.
     
  18. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    but again, you must hold a definition of "proclaim" as being solely a verbal proclamation, which i don't think a holistic view of the Book will support, even if enough bait is in There for that characterization, should one desire it. Imo you cannot accept Christ with your mouth, and be considered accepted by God--but you can justify it, if you want to. (not you specifically, the collective "you" there)
     
  19. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    i agree, but at the same time it is missionaries who are blamed for opening the door for colonialism, and records still exist for the missionization of Puerto Rico as an aim to colonize them; the island was literally divided up by the predominant sects of the day, and i could not help but get an impression of strong men abusing the Word in the endeavor; which the current state of PR seems to bear out. They did not seem to so much get immersed in the Name, as get divided and conquered, politically, with "the church" leading the way, iow.

    Also, it was recognized earlier that this would not work in India, for example, as they had a robust concept of God already; and so different means were employed to, essentially, divide the nation, as was done in PR. Neither study is very complimentary to Anglos, no matter how one might wish to perceive the realities in either nation. Even if some good also came of these, they seem to amount to a Rothschild handing you a loaf of bread after they have cleaned you out lol. Iow, the passage has been politicized, and made to serve an agenda.
     
  20. justaname

    justaname Disciple of Jesus Christ Staff Member

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    Peter is supporting Paul, and so are the remainder of the elders and apostles. The Scripture specifies:

    But some believers who belonged to the party of the Pharisees rose up and said, "It is necessary to circumcise them and to order them to keep the law of Moses." - Acts 15:5

    These are the ones questioning. The apostles and elders simply gathered together to meet about this issue. After meeting together they came to a consensus.

    To the Law question, I believe it is the whole of the Law not just the 10 commandments they were unable to keep. The Gentiles were never under the Moasic covenant. It is the Abrahamic covenant through which all the nations will be blessed.

    I disagree with your position on Peter. This is why I commented to begin with. Acts 15 is clear. Peter states:

    And God, who knows the heart, bore witness to them, by giving them the Holy Spirit just as he did to us, and he made no distinction between us and them, having cleansed their hearts by faith. - Acts 15:8-9

    Peter's whole point is God gave the Holy Spirit to Gentiles who were never under the Law. It is by faith through the grace of the Lord Jesus that both Jew and Gentile are saved. It is God's witness through the giving of the Holy Spirit that testifies Gentiles are not held to keep the Law. The Holy Spirit was already given to this group and they did not ever come under the Law.

    Part of Peter's speech at Pentecost was convicting the Jews of their part in crucifying the Christ. There was never any different gospel. One gospel message for both Jew and Gentile.

    Paul is no innovator of the gospel message. It is a false teaching stating there was one gospel for the Jew and Paul had a new and different message. Neither history nor Scripture supports such a false claim.
     
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