This really grabbed me today!

[stunnedbygrace]

15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
18 Christ is also the head of the church,
which is his body.
He is the beginning,
supreme over all who rise from the dead.
So he is first in everything.
19 For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ,
20 and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.

The visible image of God.
Existed before anything was created, even everything in heaven.
Everything was created through Him and for Him.
He holds all of creation together.
He is the beginning AND the firstborn.

How can anyone say He is not God? It flummoxes me.
I do understand that in His human form He had to rely completely on God just as we do. But I’ll be darned if I can understand how anyone can read this and come away saying He is not God…

 

[Aunty Jane]

15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
18 Christ is also the head of the church,
which is his body.
He is the beginning,
supreme over all who rise from the dead.
So he is first in everything.
19 For God in all his fullness
was pleased to live in Christ,
20 and through him God reconciled
everything to himself.
He made peace with everything in heaven and on earth
by means of Christ’s blood on the cross.

The visible image of God.
Existed before anything was created, even everything in heaven.
Everything was created through Him and for Him.
He holds all of creation together.
He is the beginning AND the firstborn.

How can anyone say He is not God? It flummoxes me.
I do understand that in His human form He had to rely completely on God just as we do. But I’ll be darned if I can understand how anyone can read this and come away saying He is not God…

Reading that scripture through a different lens, it is quite clear to me that he is not Almighty God.

Firstly, he is the “image” of his God. Is an image the same as the one reflected? Is the image in the mirror, you? Or is it a reflection of you?
We are all made in God’s image....it means that we possess his qualities...but it doesn’t mean that we are all God.

The Father created all things “through” the agency of his son, gifting it all to him.....“created through him and for him”....if Jesus is God, how can that be said? How does God give things to his equal self?

He existed before anything else.....but he did not exist before his Father because he is God’s “firstborn”. The Son is the first and only direct creation of his Father...that is what makes him unique.....all other things came via the Son by means of God’s spirit, which is the power behind all of God’s activities, directed to whomever and wherever he wishes.

The Son is “begotten” which means that his Father is his ‘begetter’...the one who caused his existence. (Revelation 3:14) The son had a beginning.....the Father did not.
“Begotten” means that the Father had to exist before his son....just like it is with us.

Jesus is the appointed “Mediator between God and men”.....if Jesus was God, again that makes no sense. If Jesus was God, we would need a mediator between us and him too. Sin is the barrier between us and our God...a barrier bridged by the agency of the Son, appointed as the ‘go-between’ so that we could still have our prayers heard by the Father, “in Jesus’ name”.

Jesus never taught that he was his Father’s equal and he plainly states in Revelation that the Father is his “God” even in heaven. (Revelation 3:12) How can God worship an equal part of himself?

It dishonours both the Father and the son to declare them as equals. It is a breach of the first Commandment. (Exodus 20:3) Blasphemous IMO.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

I think you do the dishonor, but we all are where we are.
And I don’t think God worships Himself.

 

[Cristo Rei]

But I’ll be darned if I can understand how anyone can read this and come away saying He is not God…

Well one has to take into account verses such as these

"This is my son" spoken by God
"I am the son of God" spoken by Jesus

Can you explain how that could mean anything else?

I tend to think that Jesus is most probably Gods son and not his own father because that makes no sense.

I could be wrong but how else does Jesus speak and pray to God if it's not another entity? That makes no sense either

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

The problem comes from people misunderstanding who God is. Most people when they talk about God, are really talking about the Father. One God, three persons. Its always confusing when people say “God is…” because im like ok which of the three persons are they talking about specifically? The doctrine of the Trinity isnt a complicated doctrine, but some over think it.

 

[amigo de christo]

Just believe what the bible says . Enjoy the gospel of John . Just read it .
As for me , I AM GONNA REJOICE IN THE GLORIOUS LORD WHO IS MY SALVATION .
IF JOHN said in the beginning was the Word and the Word was with GOD and the Word was God .
Then believe it . Just dont deny it . Now let all that draws breath praise the glorious and wonderous LORD .
Read some revelation too . Look at the language JESUS uses .
But as for me and my house , WE GONNA REJOICE IN THE GLORIOUS LORD .

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Well one has to take into account verses such as these

"This is my son" spoken by God
"I am the son of God" spoken by Jesus

Can you explain how that could mean anything else?

I tend to think that Jesus is most probably Gods son and not his own father because that makes no sense.

I could be wrong but how else does Jesus speak and pray to God if it's not another entity? That makes no sense either

He spoke like that while He was in human form and God spoke of Him like that while He was in human form. But in heaven they throw their crowns at His feet and kneel down and worship Jesus in Revelation. He does not correct them and God does not strike Him dead for letting them worship Him even though God said HE is the only one to be worshiped and will not share His glory with another. So there’s more mystery to this than meets the eye.

 

[amigo de christo]

Its LORD PRAISING TIME peoples . SO let all praise and thank the LORD . And be well fed in those bibles .

 

[amigo de christo]

He spoke like that while He was in human form and God spoke of Him like that while He was in human form. But in heaven they throw their crowns at His feet and kneel down and worship Jesus in Revelation. He does not correct them and God does not strike Him dead for letting them worship Him even though God said HE is the only one to be worshiped and will not share His glory with another. So there’s more mystery to this than meets the eye.

Notice what the angel tells john twice . To get up and to WORSHIP GOD . Notice the angel says WORSHIP GOD .
Now how come saints were throwing their crowns at the feet of JESUS . And i did not hear any correction .
THEY WORSHIPPED THE LAMB . Hmmm . Interesting indeed . JOHN says it . In the beginning
Even if folks cant truly understand it , THEY need to NOT DENY IT .

 

[amigo de christo]

He spoke like that while He was in human form and God spoke of Him like that while He was in human form. But in heaven they throw their crowns at His feet and kneel down and worship Jesus in Revelation. He does not correct them and God does not strike Him dead for letting them worship Him even though God said HE is the only one to be worshiped and will not share His glory with another. So there’s more mystery to this than meets the eye.

Look at the language JESUS USES , I am the first and the last . DOES that sound familiar
I am alpha and omega ....................Does that sound familiar .........
I say even if folks cant truly fully understand , Just dont deny the diety of Christ .

 

[Enoch111]

How can anyone say He is not God?

Brainwashing is a very powerful spiritual and psychological weapon against humans. Just look all around you at the sheeple still wearing masks even after study after study and actual physical data from all over the world has proved that they are totally worthless against a virus. This was the result of a serious psychological operation against humanity (Psy-Op) and it worked. There are more such Pys-Ops in the works.

In the spiritual realm the cults approach people who have no idea about what is revealed in the Bible and convince them that Jesus is not God. The Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Unitarians, etc. are all committed to denying the deity of Christ. And it is only by the grace of God that genuine Christians totally believe that Jesus is presently God and was always God from eternity past.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Brainwashing is a very powerful spiritual and psychological weapon against humans. Just look all around you at the sheeple still wearing masks even after study after study and actual physical data from all over the world has proved that they are totally worthless against a virus. This was the result of a serious psychological operation against humanity (Psy-Op) and it worked. There are more such Pys-Ops in the works.

In the spiritual realm the cults approach people who have no idea about what is revealed in the Bible and convince them that Jesus is not God. The Muslims, Jehovah's Witnesses, Christadelphians, Unitarians, etc. are all committed to denying the deity of Christ. And it is only by the grace of God that genuine Christians totally believe that Jesus is presently God and was always God from eternity past.

It’s laziness partly. People want someone else to take care of them. The deal is: okay I will take care of you but you have to give me power over you, your speech, your thoughts, your decisions. It’s the trap of allowing narcissists to control you for the promise of being taken care of. It falls apart the moment you don’t do exactly as they command. You see it in the micro in your own life and you see it in the macro with government. Satan was the very first narcissist and if you look at the clinical definition of a narcissist, you see satans traits and tactics. Gaslighting (God didn’t say that or mean that), lack of empathy, a strong desire to control others, rage when they won’t bow to your wishes, rules for you but not for them, etc.

In the government, you see narcissism run amok now. It makes sense, satan doesn’t have a body so he has to work through men.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

Firstly, he is the “image” of his God. Is an image the same as the one reflected? Is the image in the mirror, you? Or is it a reflection of you?

God is Spirit. Spirit is invisible to the human eye. So this line falls apart really.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

The son had a beginning.....the Father did not.
“Begotten” means that the Father had to exist before his son....just like it is with us.

In His human form He had a beginning. Got begot Him in human form. But He was with God in the beginning and He IS God, as John says.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I think you do the dishonor, but we all are where are.

We are all where we have placed ourselves in God's eyes. A great many are going to be very disappointed and angry that the devil has sold them a blasphemy dressed up as truth. (Matthew 7:21-23)
Jesus is God's appointed judge...we will all stand before him. (Hebrews 4:12-13)
Can you explain why God has to entrust judging to his other self?

John 5:22, 30...
"For the Father judges no one at all, but he has entrusted all the judging to the Son,. . . .I cannot do a single thing of my own initiative. Just as I hear, I judge, and my judgment is righteous because I seek, not my own will, but the will of him who sent me."

There is no fooling this judge....if he is God, why does he not carry out his own will?

And I don’t think God worships Himself.

But if you believe Jesus is Almighty God, then Revelation 3:12 is nonsensical.....Jesus says...
“‘The one who conquers—I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he will by no means go out from it anymore, and I will write upon him the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the New Jerusalem that descends out of heaven from my God, and my own new name."
Four times in that one verse Jesus identifies the Father as his God.....he is in heaven at this time, not in the flesh.....and it was he who gave the Revelation to John through an angel....but it originally came from his Father. (Revelation 1:1)

God is Spirit. Spirit is invisible to the human eye. So this line falls apart really.

We were all created in God's image (originally sinless) so I'm afraid you are leaving this important fact out of your equation. Being "in God's image" doesn't mean he was God, any more than it means that with regard to us humans....

In His human form He had a beginning. Got begot Him in human form. But He was with God in the beginning and He IS God, as John says.

No, sorry, God's "only begotten son" was so before he came to be born in human form. (John 3:16) Revelation 3:14 says that Jesus is "the beginning of God's creation".

John 1:1 says that the Son was "the Word" (Logos, meaning "one who speaks God's words") and that he was "with God" "in the beginning".....God had no beginning.

When John says that Jesus was "theos" (god) that word does not mean only Yahweh...it means a god or goddess of any sort...."theos" is used of the devil. (2 Corinthians 4:3-4) John was an apostle who did not believe contrary to all of the others....
Paul wrote....(1Corinthians 8:5-6)
"For even though there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth, just as there are many “gods” and many “lords,” 6 there is actually to us one God, the Father, from whom all things are and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are and we through him."

Original word studies will reveal so much lacking in the English translations, especially when a translation is geared towards promoting the trinity. There is not one clear statement from either God or his son that remotely suggests that they are one entity.....just the opposite.

All I can say is...do your homework...there are so many resources online to inform you of what these original language words mean.

You are the author of the OP.
I have explained why we differ on this subject. We view the OP scripture through different lenses......so, which one of us is correct? Either the trinity is true, or it is a satanically manufactured lie.
The very nature of God and his relationship with his son is a crucial issue. We are free to believe whatever our hearts incline us to believe.....Only God knows who is teaching his truth in a world ruled by a master deceiver. (1 John 5:19)

 

[Cristo Rei]

He spoke like that while He was in human form and God spoke of Him like that while He was in human form.

Pray to himself?
Speaking to himself?
I'm sorry but that makes no sense to me

God specifically says
"THIS IS MY SON"
So i ask again.
How can that mean anything else other than Jesus is God's Son?

 

[stunnedbygrace]

This seems quite insane to me. I cannot continue in it. Sorry to you both but I can’t do it.
I’m quite fine with just leaving my op and not arguing about it.

 

[Aunty Jane]

This seems quite insane to me. I cannot continue in it. Sorry to you both but I can’t do it.
I’m quite fine with just leaving my op and not arguing about it.

SBG....can I ask what it is that you cannot do? Surely if you believe that God is "three" and not "one" as the Bible clearly states....is it a case of "can't" or "won't"?

Is this an inconvenient line of reasoning? Remember that God himself created our sense of logic......would he present himself as "Father" and his "firstborn" as his "son", if it were not in the realm of our understanding of this relationship?

 

[Brakelite]

Reading that scripture through a different lens, it is quite clear to me that he is not Almighty God.

You need to throw away that lens... It's lying to you.

 

[Cristo Rei]

This seems quite insane to me. I cannot continue in it. Sorry to you both but I can’t do it.
I’m quite fine with just leaving my op and not arguing about it.

Its a simple question.
God said "this is my son"
What did he mean by that?

Can you at least see why im confused?