Timing of Eze 37 and 38 pre Trib?

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dad

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This is a thread to discuss the invasion of Israel by the forces led by the Northern power. This thread is not for people that view Revelations and most prophesies as history or present. So here is the question, and it is from a standpoint of asking rather than knowing it all.

Ezekiel 38:18
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God , that my fury shall come up in my face.

So could this be the start of the Tribulation, where the Rapture occurs? The start of God's wrath!?
This great war sounds like it is not the final war, where nations gathered (again in Israel) just when He returns to earth and destroys them all. The final in Rev 19 battle is similar in that birds are called to dispose of the dead people. Are these 2 different battles?
If so, why? If not, why?
 

Truth7t7

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This is a thread to discuss the invasion of Israel by the forces led by the Northern power. This thread is not for people that view Revelations and most prophesies as history or present. So here is the question, and it is from a standpoint of asking rather than knowing it all.

Ezekiel 38:18
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God , that my fury shall come up in my face.

So could this be the start of the Tribulation, where the Rapture occurs? The start of God's wrath!?
This great war sounds like it is not the final war, where nations gathered (again in Israel) just when He returns to earth and destroys them all. The final in Rev 19 battle is similar in that birds are called to dispose of the dead people. Are these 2 different battles?
If so, why? If not, why?
Ezekiel chapters 38/39 clearly describe a historical war fought long ago, with helmets, shields, swords, bows, arrows, and spears

100% Historical
 

Keraz

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Ezekiel chapters 38/39 clearly describe a historical war fought long ago, with helmets, shields, swords, bows, arrows, and spears

100% Historical
Using the description of the weapons as proof of a historical fulfillment of the G/M attack, is invalid and fails.
Because the ancient Prophets were unaware of modern weaponry, they had to describe this attack in the only way the knew. We can easily substitute swords for rifles, shields for armor, horses for tanks, etc.

T7t7, please tell us which ancient war your think was fulfilled by this prophecy.
 
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dad

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Ezekiel chapters 38/39 clearly describe a historical war fought long ago, with helmets, shields, swords, bows, arrows, and spears

100% Historical
Ezekiel 38:8
After many days thou shalt be visited: in the latter years thou shalt come into the land that is brought back from the sword, and is gathered out of many people, against the mountains of Israel, which have been always waste: but it is brought forth out of the nations, and they shall dwell safely all of them.

Ezekiel 38:20
So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Ezekiel 38:22
And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

I thought the OP made it clear that this was for people that believe in prophesy, and don't try to put it in the past.
 

dad

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Using the description of the weapons as proof of a historical fulfillment of the G/M attack, is invalid and fails.
Because the ancient Prophets were unaware of modern weaponry, they had to describe this attack in the only way the knew. We can easily substitute swords for rifles, shields for armor, horses for tanks, etc.

T7t7, please tell us which ancient war your think was fulfilled by this prophecy.
In addition there are modern weapons that can stop electric power. So it could be that they will resort to horses.
 
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marks

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Ezekiel 38:18
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God , that my fury shall come up in my face.

I see Ezekiel 38-39 showing two wars separated by 7 years.

In the first war, it is a limited number of nation aggressors,

Ezekiel 38:1-6 KJV
1) And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2) Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3) And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.

In the second war, all nations of the world are involved. This begins a new prophecy,

Ezekiel 39:17-20 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

In between these two,

Ezekiel 39:9 KJV
9) And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:

Seven months spent cleansing the land of the dead, and seven years burning the weapons of war.

"They that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth . . ." The people of Israel in their various occupations cleaning up after a war.

After the second war, as all nations attack Israel,

Ezekiel 39:25-28 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

They are all returned to Israel, as Jesus also prophesied,

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

At the beginning of the end of the first war, as God is going to destroy them,

Ezekiel 38:18-20 KJV
18) And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19) For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20) So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Revelation 6:12 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Ezekiel 38:22 KJV
22) And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Revelation 8:7 KJV
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

I'm thinking that the earthquake in Ezekiel 38 is the same as in the 6th seal. That the hail and blood and fire of Ezekiel 38 are the same as the first trumpet judgment.

When Jesus rose from the dead there was an earthquake. When the two witnesses rise there is an earthquake. When the dead rose after Jesus died there was an earthquake.

What happens when the millions of Christians around the world rise at Christ's command?

Much love!
 
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ScottA

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This is a thread to discuss the invasion of Israel by the forces led by the Northern power. This thread is not for people that view Revelations and most prophesies as history or present. So here is the question, and it is from a standpoint of asking rather than knowing it all.

Ezekiel 38:18
And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord God , that my fury shall come up in my face.

So could this be the start of the Tribulation, where the Rapture occurs? The start of God's wrath!?
This great war sounds like it is not the final war, where nations gathered (again in Israel) just when He returns to earth and destroys them all. The final in Rev 19 battle is similar in that birds are called to dispose of the dead people. Are these 2 different battles?
If so, why? If not, why?
No...tribulation began in the beginning and is a part of the whole worldly experience for all generations (as Jesus said).

As for the greatest time of tribulation, and that time of great tribulation spoken of by Jesus, he was referring to what was about to come upon Him, which was the tribulations of all time. Which He qualified, not as being in the distant future, but as shortly coming to pass, by saying "nor ever shall be."
 

Mantis

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Hitler 2.0's plan is probably taking Ukraine and then going through Georgia, Turkey etc then Israel to take a spoil. I am at the edge of my seat!
 
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dad

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In the first war, it is a limited number of nation aggressors,

Ezekiel 38:1-6 KJV
1) And the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
2) Son of man, set thy face against Gog, the land of Magog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal, and prophesy against him,
3) And say, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I am against thee, O Gog, the chief prince of Meshech and Tubal:
4) And I will turn thee back, and put hooks into thy jaws, and I will bring thee forth, and all thine army, horses and horsemen, all of them clothed with all sorts of armour, even a great company with bucklers and shields, all of them handling swords:
5) Persia, Ethiopia, and Libya with them; all of them with shield and helmet:
6) Gomer, and all his bands; the house of Togarmah of the north quarters, and all his bands: and many people with thee.
Right.
In the second war, all nations of the world are involved. This begins a new prophecy,

Ezekiel 39:17-20 KJV
17) And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.
18) Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.
19) And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.
20) Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.
That seems to make some sense.

In between these two,

Ezekiel 39:9 KJV
9) And they that dwell in the cities of Israel shall go forth, and shall set on fire and burn the weapons, both the shields and the bucklers, the bows and the arrows, and the handstaves, and the spears, and they shall burn them with fire seven years:
I guess this is why you think there are seven years between wars.


After the second war, as all nations attack Israel,

Ezekiel 39:25-28 KJV
25) Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26) After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27) When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28) Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

They are all returned to Israel, as Jesus also prophesied,

Matthew 24:31 KJV
31) And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

At the beginning of the end of the first war, as God is going to destroy them,

Ezekiel 38:18-20 KJV
18) And it shall come to pass at the same time when Gog shall come against the land of Israel, saith the Lord GOD, that my fury shall come up in my face.
19) For in my jealousy and in the fire of my wrath have I spoken, Surely in that day there shall be a great shaking in the land of Israel;
20) So that the fishes of the sea, and the fowls of the heaven, and the beasts of the field, and all creeping things that creep upon the earth, and all the men that are upon the face of the earth, shall shake at my presence, and the mountains shall be thrown down, and the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.

Revelation 6:12 KJV
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Ezekiel 38:22 KJV
22) And I will plead against him with pestilence and with blood; and I will rain upon him, and upon his bands, and upon the many people that are with him, an overflowing rain, and great hailstones, fire, and brimstone.

Revelation 8:7 KJV
7) The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

I'm thinking that the earthquake in Ezekiel 38 is the same as in the 6th seal. That the hail and blood and fire of Ezekiel 38 are the same as the first trumpet judgment.

When Jesus rose from the dead there was an earthquake. When the two witnesses rise there is an earthquake. When the dead rose after Jesus died there was an earthquake.

What happens when the millions of Christians around the world rise at Christ's command?

Much love!

That does seem to be a well organized interpretation.


So where would you place this..?

Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

Could that apply to both the start of the Trib, which may be that first war you talked about, as well as the mid point of the tribulation when the Great Tribulation starts?
 
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dad

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No...tribulation began in the beginning and is a part of the whole worldly experience for all generations (as Jesus said).

As for the greatest time of tribulation, and that time of great tribulation spoken of by Jesus, he was referring to what was about to come upon Him, which was the tribulations of all time. Which He qualified, not as being in the distant future, but as shortly coming to pass, by saying "nor ever shall be."
Disbelief then, regardless of the request in the OP to discuss prophesy seriously and in context. OK
 
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dad

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Hitler 2.0's plan is probably taking Ukraine and then going through Georgia, Turkey etc then Israel to take a spoil. I am at the edge of my seat!
If they made peace and settled for less, maybe that would free them up to focus on the land of Israel. (unless it is still a bit in the future)
 
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marks

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So where would you place this..?

Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.

I see this as referring to Rome destroying Jerusalem.

Luke 21:10-12 KJV
10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luke 21:20-24 KJV
20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The end of this conquest is the scattering of Israel during the times of the gentiles.

Much love!
 
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dad

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I see this as referring to Rome destroying Jerusalem.

Luke 21:10-12 KJV
10) Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:
11) And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences; and fearful sights and great signs shall there be from heaven.
12) But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Luke 21:20-24 KJV
20) And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
21) Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
22) For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled.
23) But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people.
24) And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

The end of this conquest is the scattering of Israel during the times of the gentiles.

Much love!
Interesting. Sometimes though, a prophesy can refer to more than one time. In the end, when the AntiChrist enters the holy place, for example, that is the time when people are to drop what they are doing and flee. In fact I would say that is the highest fulfillment of that prophesy. After all, verse 23 says 'For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled" I don't think we could say it was all fulfilled yet.

Like Eze 38,39, where you see the prophesy apply to more than one war.
 
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Mantis

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Interesting. Sometimes though, a prophesy can refer to more than one time. In the end, when the AntiChrist enters the holy place, for example, that is the time when people are to drop what they are doing and flee. In fact I would say that is the highest fulfillment of that prophesy. After all, verse 23 says 'For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled" I don't think we could say it was all fulfilled yet.

Like Eze 38,39, where you see the prophesy apply to more than one war.
I believe the Bible is full of two fold prophecy. It’s quite amazing.
 

ScottA

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Disbelief then, regardless of the request in the OP to discuss prophesy seriously and in context. OK
What does that mean...what are you saying here? You are not being clear.

You asked a question in the original post. I answered it.
 

marks

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Like Eze 38,39, where you see the prophesy apply to more than one war.
Actually I see this as one prophecy in Ezekiel 38:1 to 39:16, the Gog/Magog war, and a separate prophecy from 39:17 to the end of the chapter being Armaggedon.

I see Luke's prophecy of Jerusalem surrounded by armies being the Romans, and in Matthew the AOD being in the end of the age.

Much love!
 

marks

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'For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled" I don't think we could say it was all fulfilled yet.
Whether you apply the prophecy in Luke to the Roman destruction of Jerusalem or the end of the age, I think is should be understood that "all be fullfilled" refers to what was written of that time, not that all prophecy will be fulfulled by that point in time.

Much love!
 

ScottA

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Luke 21:20
And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh.
Jerusalem is translated, but more importantly, is spiritually: Christ.

It is as I have told you.