To what does the APOSTASIA refer

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KUWN

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would like to show you something behind the scenes with the following observation. The debate of the meaning of APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 must take into consideration 1 Tim 4:1 where Paul uses a verb, not a noun as in 2 Thes 2:3. Here are both verses as Paul wrote them:
2 Thes 2:3
μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
1 Tim 4:1
Τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ῥητῶς λέγει ὅτι ἐν ὑστέροις καιροῖς ἀποστήσονταί τινες τῆς πίστεως,

You will note that Paul uses the verb ἀποστήσονταί when referring unambiguously to a departure from the faith. Note also that the modifier "from the faith" is needed because the verb by itself does not denote apostasy from the faith.

Note also that in 2 Thes 2:3 the articular noun ἡ ἀποστασία is used. Had Paul wanted to use a grammatical structure and lexical item to talk about the departing from the faith, he would have used the verb as he did in 1 Tim 4. What must be pointed out is that the APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 has to be an event, not a process. If this is not understood, you will be confused about what this APOSTASIA is. The APOSTASIA and the man of lawlessness are both instantaneous events. In fact, one thing the APOSTASIA is not is a progressive happening. For example, Jude 3,4 tell of a departure from the faith, it happens over time, which would not be an event that is recognizable when it occurs.

So, 2 Thes 2:3 the APOSTASIA is a point in time event that is recognizable. Had Paul wanted to indicate it was a departure from the faith, he would have used the verb, not the noun.


It is for this reason, along with other important points, that ἡ ἀποστασία is a direct reference to the Pre-Trib Rapture. The importance of what was stated in this brief letter is to show that the APOSTASIA is an event, not something in progress, and that Paul uses the verb in 1 Tim 4:1.
I would be interested in other Pre-Tribbers thoughts on this.
 

marks

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I would be interested in other Pre-Tribbers thoughts on this.
The departure from the faith is not a verifiable sign, as there has been that kind of apostasy from the beginning.

Paul wrote that he had told them about this before. The only record we have of Paul's previous teaching is in his first letter to them, in which he tells then not about a departure from the faith, but a departure in the harpadzo.

Interestingly, Aristophanes, the "Shakespeare" of Classical Greek, wrote a play called "The Birds", in which a couple of fellows plan their "apostasia" to the bird city in the sky.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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would like to show you something behind the scenes with the following observation. The debate of the meaning of APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 must take into consideration 1 Tim 4:1 where Paul uses a verb, not a noun as in 2 Thes 2:3. Here are both verses as Paul wrote them:
2 Thes 2:3
μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
1 Tim 4:1
Τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ῥητῶς λέγει ὅτι ἐν ὑστέροις καιροῖς ἀποστήσονταί τινες τῆς πίστεως,

You will note that Paul uses the verb ἀποστήσονταί when referring unambiguously to a departure from the faith. Note also that the modifier "from the faith" is needed because the verb by itself does not denote apostasy from the faith.

Note also that in 2 Thes 2:3 the articular noun ἡ ἀποστασία is used. Had Paul wanted to use a grammatical structure and lexical item to talk about the departing from the faith, he would have used the verb as he did in 1 Tim 4. What must be pointed out is that the APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 has to be an event, not a process. If this is not understood, you will be confused about what this APOSTASIA is. The APOSTASIA and the man of lawlessness are both instantaneous events. In fact, one thing the APOSTASIA is not is a progressive happening. For example, Jude 3,4 tell of a departure from the faith, it happens over time, which would not be an event that is recognizable when it occurs.

So, 2 Thes 2:3 the APOSTASIA is a point in time event that is recognizable. Had Paul wanted to indicate it was a departure from the faith, he would have used the verb, not the noun.


It is for this reason, along with other important points, that ἡ ἀποστασία is a direct reference to the Pre-Trib Rapture. The importance of what was stated in this brief letter is to show that the APOSTASIA is an event, not something in progress, and that Paul uses the verb in 1 Tim 4:1.
I would be interested in other Pre-Tribbers thoughts on this.
The problem with this is that Paul indicates that the falling away (apostasia) occurs first before Christ's coming and our being gathered to Him. So, if the apostasia referred to the rapture then Paul would be saying the rapture has to occur first before the rapture, which obviously doesn't make sense.

The Greek word apostosia is only used in one other verse.

Acts 21:21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake (apostasia) Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

In this verse it refers to Jews forsaking or falling away (departing from) the teachings of Moses. I believe it should be understood similarly in 2 Thess 2:3 as referring to a mass falling away or departure from the faith.

Jesus taught that the same thing would happen before His coming at the end of the age, so it fits what Jesus taught as well.

Matthew 24:10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
 

marks

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2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (lit. "has in stood", perfect tense, that is, has come, and remains here)
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (lit. away from standing, that is, departure), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him . . . Don't be troubled by some claiming the Day of the LORD is here.

Why would they be troubled? If in fact they understood that "our gathering together unto Him" were to be AFTER this, then they would simply know it was getting closer, that day they would be gathered.

However, if they understood that this gathering were to occur BEFORE, that would be troubling indeed over reports that the Day of the LORD had come.

"That day shall not come", what day? The Day of the LORD. Except first there come the departure, and the man of sin be revealed. Don't be troubled! The Day of the LORD won't come until the departure come first, and the man of sin revealed. No departure, no revealed man of sin? Not the Day of the LORD.

I've been using "departure" to translate "apostasia", as this is the literal meaning of the word. The one other time it's used in the NT is Acts, 21, the accusation that Paul was teaching "departure from Moses". Apostasia was used for rebellion against authority, but it also still meant departure. In answering which sense should be understood here, I'd point out that Paul wrote, Don't you remember that I told you about this?

Do we have any evidence of which sense Paul had instructed them about, whether spiritual apostacy, or a more literal departure? In his first letter to this church, Paul wrote about the departure of all who are "in Christ", whether alive or asleep, to depart and be forevermore with Christ.

What about "spiritual apostacy"? There isn't any teaching regarding that in Paul's first letter to them. This is a specific "apostasia". Can we find a specific rebellion to which this may refer? How would you know it had happened? There has been spiritual rebellion from the beginning. However, the departure is a specific event that will happen at a certain time. Paul here is specifying that time to be prior to the Day of the LORD.

Much love!
 

Spiritual Israelite

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2 Thessalonians 2:1-5 KJV
1) Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2) That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand. (lit. "has in stood", perfect tense, that is, has come, and remains here)
3) Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first (lit. away from standing, that is, departure), and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;
4) Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God.
5) Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things?

Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together unto Him
Look at verse 3. Paul said the falling away had to occur before His coming and our being gathered to Him, so how could he have been referring to the rapture? The rapture couldn't occur first before...the rapture.

. . . Don't be troubled by some claiming the Day of the LORD is here.

Why would they be troubled? If in fact they understood that "our gathering together unto Him" were to be AFTER this, then they would simply know it was getting closer, that day they would be gathered.

However, if they understood that this gathering were to occur BEFORE, that would be troubling indeed over reports that the Day of the LORD had come.

"That day shall not come", what day? The Day of the LORD. Except first there come the departure, and the man of sin be revealed. Don't be troubled! The Day of the LORD won't come until the departure come first, and the man of sin revealed. No departure, no revealed man of sin? Not the Day of the LORD.

I've been using "departure" to translate "apostasia", as this is the literal meaning of the word. The one other time it's used in the NT is Acts, 21, the accusation that Paul was teaching "departure from Moses". Apostasia was used for rebellion against authority, but it also still meant departure. In answering which sense should be understood here
But, it's about a departure from the truth, not a departure from one place to another.

, I'd point out that Paul wrote, Don't you remember that I told you about this?
I hope you understand that Paul taught them things in person as well as in his letters? He wasn't necessarily talking about something he had previously written to them. I believe he was referring to things he told them in person.

Do we have any evidence of which sense Paul had instructed them about, whether spiritual apostacy, or a more literal departure? In his first letter to this church, Paul wrote about the departure of all who are "in Christ", whether alive or asleep, to depart and be forevermore with Christ.

What about "spiritual apostacy"? There isn't any teaching regarding that in Paul's first letter to them. This is a specific "apostasia". Can we find a specific rebellion to which this may refer? How would you know it had happened? There has been spiritual rebellion from the beginning. However, the departure is a specific event that will happen at a certain time. Paul here is specifying that time to be prior to the Day of the LORD.

Much love!
You say there has been spiritual rebellion from the beginning. Do you deny that there would be a time where that would happen more frequently than how it always has happened during a time period before Christ returns? If so, what do you make of these passages:

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

There's obviously always been wickedness and people turning away form the faith, but Jesus talked about a time when there would be a significant increase in wickedness and a time when the love of most will grow cold. So, it's a time when it will happen much more frequently than normal.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

This would be a pointless thing for Paul to write if he was just talking about something happening "in later times" that always happened. So, it's implied that "in later times" it would happen more frequently, just as Jesus talked about as well.
 

marks

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But, it's about a departure from the truth, not a departure from one place to another.
It doesn't say departure from truth, and in fact, we really need to focus on this text to determine it's specific and exact meaning, and then go on to harmonize with other texts.

Much love!
 

marks

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This would be a pointless thing for Paul to write if he was just talking about something happening "in later times" that always happened.
That's my point. Apostasy is not a one time event. The harpadzo is.

Much love!
 

KUWN

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Look at verse 3. Paul said the falling away had to occur before His coming and our being gathered to Him, so how could he have been referring to the rapture? The rapture couldn't occur first before...the rapture.


But, it's about a departure from the truth, not a departure from one place to another.


I hope you understand that Paul taught them things in person as well as in his letters? He wasn't necessarily talking about something he had previously written to them. I believe he was referring to things he told them in person.


You say there has been spiritual rebellion from the beginning. Do you deny that there would be a time where that would happen more frequently than how it always has happened during a time period before Christ returns? If so, what do you make of these passages:

Matthew 24:9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.

There's obviously always been wickedness and people turning away form the faith, but Jesus talked about a time when there would be a significant increase in wickedness and a time when the love of most will grow cold. So, it's a time when it will happen much more frequently than normal.

1 Timothy 4:1 The Spirit clearly says that in later times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons. 2 Such teachings come through hypocritical liars, whose consciences have been seared as with a hot iron.

This would be a pointless thing for Paul to write if he was just talking about something happening "in later times" that always happened. So, it's implied that "in later times" it would happen more frequently, just as Jesus talked about as well.
Spiritual Israelite,

I would just recommend you reading carefully my original post.
Nowhere in Greek literature does APOSTASIA mean rebellion. It can be used in that context, but the lexeme itself does not carry that meaning. That is why I suggested that you read 20 uses of APOSTASIA in Ancient Greek. It never means rebellion or falling away.
The Rapture does occur before the Day of the Lord (aka the tribulation).

I did ask for critique of my original post but I asked Pre-Tribbers to respond. The arguments used by non Pre Tribbers have been answered years ago. Most are Replacement theologians, which I dont find interesting. Sorry for being so direct, but I am trying to make sure i haven't overlooked anything and Pre Tribbers will be able to spot that.
 

IndianaRob

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would like to show you something behind the scenes with the following observation. The debate of the meaning of APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 must take into consideration 1 Tim 4:1 where Paul uses a verb, not a noun as in 2 Thes 2:3. Here are both verses as Paul wrote them:
2 Thes 2:3
μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
1 Tim 4:1
Τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ῥητῶς λέγει ὅτι ἐν ὑστέροις καιροῖς ἀποστήσονταί τινες τῆς πίστεως,

You will note that Paul uses the verb ἀποστήσονταί when referring unambiguously to a departure from the faith. Note also that the modifier "from the faith" is needed because the verb by itself does not denote apostasy from the faith.

Note also that in 2 Thes 2:3 the articular noun ἡ ἀποστασία is used. Had Paul wanted to use a grammatical structure and lexical item to talk about the departing from the faith, he would have used the verb as he did in 1 Tim 4. What must be pointed out is that the APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 has to be an event, not a process. If this is not understood, you will be confused about what this APOSTASIA is. The APOSTASIA and the man of lawlessness are both instantaneous events. In fact, one thing the APOSTASIA is not is a progressive happening. For example, Jude 3,4 tell of a departure from the faith, it happens over time, which would not be an event that is recognizable when it occurs.

So, 2 Thes 2:3 the APOSTASIA is a point in time event that is recognizable. Had Paul wanted to indicate it was a departure from the faith, he would have used the verb, not the noun.


It is for this reason, along with other important points, that ἡ ἀποστασία is a direct reference to the Pre-Trib Rapture. The importance of what was stated in this brief letter is to show that the APOSTASIA is an event, not something in progress, and that Paul uses the verb in 1 Tim 4:1.
I would be interested in other Pre-Tribbers thoughts on this.
You are correct, the falling away is an instantaneous event.

The falling away is repentance and the death of the old man so that the new man, Christ can sit in the temple of God.
 

covenantee

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would like to show you something behind the scenes with the following observation. The debate of the meaning of APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 must take into consideration 1 Tim 4:1 where Paul uses a verb, not a noun as in 2 Thes 2:3. Here are both verses as Paul wrote them:
2 Thes 2:3
μή τις ὑμᾶς ἐξαπατήσῃ κατὰ μηδένα τρόπον· ὅτι ἐὰν μὴ ἔλθῃ ἡ ἀποστασία πρῶτον καὶ ἀποκαλυφθῇ ὁ ἄνθρωπος τῆς ἀνομίας, ὁ υἱὸς τῆς ἀπωλείας,
1 Tim 4:1
Τὸ δὲ πνεῦμα ῥητῶς λέγει ὅτι ἐν ὑστέροις καιροῖς ἀποστήσονταί τινες τῆς πίστεως,

You will note that Paul uses the verb ἀποστήσονταί when referring unambiguously to a departure from the faith. Note also that the modifier "from the faith" is needed because the verb by itself does not denote apostasy from the faith.

Note also that in 2 Thes 2:3 the articular noun ἡ ἀποστασία is used. Had Paul wanted to use a grammatical structure and lexical item to talk about the departing from the faith, he would have used the verb as he did in 1 Tim 4. What must be pointed out is that the APOSTASIA in 2 Thes 2:3 has to be an event, not a process. If this is not understood, you will be confused about what this APOSTASIA is. The APOSTASIA and the man of lawlessness are both instantaneous events. In fact, one thing the APOSTASIA is not is a progressive happening. For example, Jude 3,4 tell of a departure from the faith, it happens over time, which would not be an event that is recognizable when it occurs.

So, 2 Thes 2:3 the APOSTASIA is a point in time event that is recognizable. Had Paul wanted to indicate it was a departure from the faith, he would have used the verb, not the noun.


It is for this reason, along with other important points, that ἡ ἀποστασία is a direct reference to the Pre-Trib Rapture. The importance of what was stated in this brief letter is to show that the APOSTASIA is an event, not something in progress, and that Paul uses the verb in 1 Tim 4:1.
I would be interested in other Pre-Tribbers thoughts on this.
Apostasy as rapture in 2 Thessalonians 2:3 was unseen, unsaid, and unknown in true Christian orthodoxy prior to the 19th century.

The Bible translations which it is claimed contain the dogma were all written by Reformers from the 14th to 17th centuries. No Reformer ever heard of a pretrib rapture. Suffering as they were under the apostate papal antichrist, they would have found the idea risibly absurd.

"Ice T." admits one J.S. Mabie as being the first to conjure it in 1859:

"J. S. Mabie is said to have presented the view that “the departure” refers to the rapture as early as 1859 during a prophecy conference in Los Angeles.[12] He later wrote his view in an article published in November 1895 in a periodical called Morning Star."

The “Departure” in 2 Thessalonians 2:3
Thomas Ice, Pre-Trib Research Center


Thoroughly debunked here.
 

KUWN

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Let me clarify something. The word APOSTASIA means "departure." It does NOT refer to a PHYSICAL departure or a SPIRITUAL departure. It does not mean rebellion, or the English word apostasy. It only means "departure." I have check a lot of uses of APOSTASIA in the TLG and could not find one use that meant rebellion or falling away.

What does this mean? It means that the word APOSTASIA only means "departure" and what kind of departure is solely based on the context. I don't know if I have run across APOSTASIA without some modifier. That is what makes 2 Thes 2:3 so unusual. It has no modifier that would create a context. I have not checked all the uses of APOSTASIA so I believe I am correct based on what I did in my research.
 

IndianaRob

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According to Strong et al it means "defection, revolt, apostasy...from the true religion".
Put Strong et al in the same category as “experts and science” that say Covid shots are safe and effective and your gender is whatever you want it to be.

They really don’t believe any of that but they know most people are gullible and will believe any lie if its shouted loud enough and often enough.

Strong has done more to hide the truth of God than probably anyone who has ever lived. And although it can’t be proven he was likely a high ranking Freemason.
 

KUWN

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According to Strong et al it means "defection, revolt, apostasy...from the true religion".
covenantee,

Thank you for this clarification. APOSTASIA is used in the CONTEXT of defection, revolt, and apostasy in the majority of uses. But, the word APOSTASIA itself does mean defection, revolt, or apostasy. That is why in every use that I am aware of, APOSTASIA is modified by a phrase such as "from the faith" or "from Moses" as in Acts 21.21. There is a big difference between its usage and its meaning. Without the modification, APOSTASIA only means departure from _________. That's why there is such a debate over its usage in 2 Thes 2:3; there is no modifier other than the definite article.

Also, the definite article can be used to refer it to its antecedent. In this case, the antecedent is "our gathering together." That would be its usage here.
 

covenantee

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Put Strong et al in the same category as “experts and science” that say Covid shots are safe and effective and your gender is whatever you want it to be.

They really don’t believe any of that but they know most people are gullible and will believe any lie if its shouted loud enough and often enough.

Strong has done more to hide the truth of God than probably anyone who has ever lived. And although it can’t be proven he was likely a high ranking Freemason.
So you're the only one possessing the truth of God.

Where can we come to worship you? :laughing:
 

covenantee

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covenantee,

Thank you for this clarification. APOSTASIA is used in the CONTEXT of defection, revolt, and apostasy in the majority of uses. But, the word APOSTASIA itself does mean defection, revolt, or apostasy. That is why in every use that I am aware of, APOSTASIA is modified by a phrase such as "from the faith" or "from Moses" as in Acts 21.21. There is a big difference between its usage and its meaning. Without the modification, APOSTASIA only means departure from _________. That's why there is such a debate over its usage in 2 Thes 2:3; there is no modifier other than the definite article.

Also, the definite article can be used to refer it to its antecedent. In this case, the antecedent is "our gathering together." That would be its usage here.
Thanks KUWN.

So why was there no disagreement in historic orthodox Christian doctrine about the meaning of apostasia, for more than 17 centuries until 1859?
 

IndianaRob

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So you're the only one possessing the truth of God.

Where can we come to worship you? :laughing:
No you shouldn’t believe me or anybody else. Read your Bible for exactly what it says and you will possess the truth.

Don’t you see how everything in this world is inverted?

Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, media destroys information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.

I would think that after the last four years people would understand that institutions are founded to do exactly the opposite of what they claim to be doing.
 

covenantee

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No you shouldn’t believe me or anybody else. Read your Bible for exactly what it says and you will possess the truth.

Don’t you see how everything in this world is inverted?

Everything is backwards, everything is upside down. Doctors destroy health, lawyers destroy justice, psychiatrists destroy minds, scientists destroy truth, media destroys information, religions destroy spirituality and governments destroy freedom.

I would think that after the last four years people would understand that institutions are founded to do exactly the opposite of what they claim to be doing.
If I read my Bible and my truth disagrees with your truth, who's right?
 

Johann

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Thank you for this clarification. APOSTASIA is used in the CONTEXT of defection, revolt, and apostasy in the majority of uses. But, the word APOSTASIA itself does mean defection, revolt, or apostasy. That is why in every use that I am aware of, APOSTASIA is modified by a phrase such as "from the faith" or "from Moses" as in Acts 21.21. There is a big difference between its usage and its meaning. Without the modification, APOSTASIA only means departure from _________. That's why there is such a debate over its usage in 2 Thes 2:3; there is no modifier other than the definite article.

Also, the definite article can be used to refer it to its antecedent. In this case, the antecedent is "our gathering together." That would be its usage here.
Your point about the difference between usage and meaning is well-taken. Apostasia by itself means departure, and the context of 2 Thess 2:3 might suggest the Rapture due to the lack of a spiritual modifier and the preceding mention of "our gathering together." Nevertheless, whether it refers to a spiritual defection or a physical departure remains a matter of theological debate.

J.