Tong's teaching on Romans 11.

[justbyfaith]

@Tong2020,

You have said that Romans 11:20-22 is being misinterpreted by some of us because we don't understand it in its context of the whole chapter of Romans 11.

So, here is your opportunity to give your teaching on how the context of the passage nullifies the plain meaning of the passage.

Have at it.

I am really all ears; and I want you to convince me of your point of view.

 

[Enoch111]

Have at it.

Did you mean go at it with hammer and tongs? Calvinists are like blacksmiths. They mold the Scriptures to fit their theology, rather than the other way around.

 

[Taken]

Romans 11: 20-22

[20] Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
[21] For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
[22] Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

In Context...the Book of Romans is according to Pauls speech.
* A Jewish man, steeped in Jewish Law, obedient to Jewish Law, Customs and Traditions, called by the Jewish name Saul.
* A Jewish man, also of Gentile heritage, and a Gentile Roman Citizen, called Paul.
* He was expressly chosen to Learn, then teach and Preach to Gentiles and any Jews in the crowds of listeners.

Pauls speech is TO A MIXED CROWD...
The LISTENER must decide what Applies to THEM, (according to their own Belief).

Are you (like a man in the crowd)...
...a Jew, accepting Christ as your Messiah?
...a Jew, rejecting God?
...a Jew, rejecting Christ as your Messiah?
...a Gentile, accepting God & Christ ?
...a Gentile, rejecting God & Christ?

Hebrews, Tribes, Jews...were Gods ISRAEL...
Gods established People.
Paul is Preaching and Teaching;
TO about BOTH...Israel and Gentiles (and the consequences (good or bad), for what Israel and Gentiles individually CHOOSE and BELIEVE.

Israel, were the "original" Branches, who came from in learning and accepting the Word of God...
FROM the ROOT of Knowledge->GOD.

They "continued" IN GODS "goodness", BY adhering to their LAW, established BY God, given them Through Moses.
They were "PROMISED", FOR ...their "continuance" in Adhering to their LAW...SALVATION AT THE END OF THEIR NATURAL LIVES.

^ THAT PROMISE did not end with Jesus' arrival. Jesus expressly taught, He fulfilled the LAW...(and Some Jews accepted His fulfillment)...
* However Jesus did not DESTROY the LAW...
Thus...Jews that DID NOT ACCEPT Jesus...
COULD CONTINUE IN adherence TO their Jewish Law...and THOSE Jews WHO CHOSE;
To continue in their Jewish Law...
Are they, continuing in Gods "goodness", Obedience to their Law...and thus would receive THEIR SALVATION, at the ending of their natural lives.
* IF THEY ELECTED to Reject Jesus...AND ELECTED to Reject Following their Jewish Law: They Failed to continue in Gods "goodness" and WOULD...(like "some" of their historical fathers....who stopped following Jewish Law)....
BE BRANCHES that were CUT OFF.

Cut off from what?
FROM the ROOT.
FROM God.
FROM receiving Salvation at the end of their natural lives.

CUT OFF?
WHY?
UNBELIEF.

A Gentile who IS hearing, learning, believing IN GOD, IN Christ Jesus....IS Following...
Great! "A good beginning" even a "good ending"...IF they maintain...following along "IN Gods Goodness"...and CAN be CUT OFF, if they Fail to continue.

Jesus Offered SALVATION "NOW"...(from the past 2,000 years)... FOR ANY man ...
Who surpasses the beginning of hearing, learning, believing in God, In Christ Jesus...
TO THEM "heartfully Confessing" their Belief.

ONCE...a man agrees to accept (according to Gods WAY..."heartful confession of Belief")...
The Continuing in "Gods Goodness", the Continuing in Faith FULLNESS, is expressly KEPT, BY the Internal Power of God...
And that man CAN NEVER be CUT OFF.
That mans BELIEF, is KEPT in BELIEF forever, BY THE INDWELLING POWER OF GOD.
(He is NOT subject to or in danger of Being CUT OFF.)

The Lord God, IS ALL KNOWING...
NO WAY, does the Lord, Give Salvation to a man ( who deceivingly, jokingly, asks )...
As that would MAKE the Lord a LIAR....
SINCE....

Immediately AFTER Salvation IS gifted to an individual...
The Lord Himself, CONFESSES TO God, TO His holy angels....that that specific persons SINS ARE FORGIVEN, covered, his body cleansed, his soul SAVED, his spirit spiritually QUICKENED, Sanctified (set apart), and "prepared" to be Redeemed, and Risen in Glory.

Matt 10:
[32] Whosoever therefore shall confess me before men, him will I confess also before my Father which is in heaven.

Luke 12:
[8] Also I say unto you, Whosoever shall confess me before men, him shall the Son of man also confessbefore the angels of God:

 

[Tong2020]

@Tong2020,

You have said that Romans 11:20-22 is being misinterpreted by some of us because we don't understand it in its context of the whole chapter of Romans 11.

So, here is your opportunity to give your teaching on how the context of the passage nullifies the plain meaning of the passage.

Have at it.

I am really all ears; and I want you to convince me of your point of view.

Why do you not stop the habit of putting your words into someone else’s mouth?

These are my exact words and I quote

“A careful reading of those scriptures, in the context of grace through faith, and using the lens of grace through faith, and not works, is suggested.”

“Regarding Romans 11:22, a careful reading of that passage in Romans 11, is in order.“

And from those @justbyfaith said and I quote

“You have said that Romans 11:20-22 is being misinterpreted by some of us because we don't understand it in its context of the whole chapter of Romans 11.”

A misunderstanding, if not, a misrepresentation, if not, a false accusation, if not a poor comprehension, if not, an honest mistake.

Malicious? Hope not.

I am not a teacher nor claim to be one.

Tong
R2797

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Calvinists are like blacksmiths. They mold the Scriptures to fit their theology, rather than the other way around.

All heretics do this.

@Taken has done a fine job at twisting Romans 11. His type are the most dangerous in the faith. They are very good at teaching error.

Romans 16:17-18
...mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them. [18] For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.

@Taken why do you resist the truth of Romans 11?

2 Timothy 3:8-9
Now as Jannes and Jambres withstood Moses, so do these also resist the truth: men of corrupt minds, reprobate concerning the faith.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

Pauls speech is TO A MIXED CROWD...

The ENTIRE volume of scripture is written to all mankind!

To all nations and peoples.

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING???

You are just simply resisting the truth in Romans 11 that plainly destroys that abominable Once Saved Always Saved doctrine!

 

[Taken]

@Taken has done a fine job at twisting Romans 11. His type are the most dangerous in the faith. They are very good at teaching error./QUOTE]

Oooooh so hostile. Yet you did not quote one thing, you call an error.

 

[Michiah-Imla]

@Taken said

“Oooooh so hostile. Yet you did not quote one thing, you call an error.”

You have the scripture in YOUR OWN post. Just READ it without bias.

 

[Taken]

The ENTIRE volume of scripture is written to all mankind!

To all nations and peoples.

WHAT DOES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH ANYTHING???

Simple, and already posted.
I mentioned the fact of is WHO Paul was Preaching to:
However the Highlight IS Not everyone believes the SAME....therefore NOT every word PREACHED "applies" to everyone the same.

You appear to NOT CONSIDER, the People, 2,000 years ago...
* Jews Hearing for the First Time, About Jesus Christ.
* Gentiles Hearing for the First Time, About God AND About Jesus Christ.
* None of these people Had NT written Scripture...
* None of these people were Raised up IN what they were Hearing for the First Time.
* And the New information they were receiving...was not daily...was not weekly...was not monthly...
* You think Every Person in Rome gathered together to HEAR an occasional Apostles or Disciple's Speech?
* You think Every Person in Rome HEARD the Letters Read to them?
* Did you KNOW, when the Jewish Apostles were SENT OUT to country sides and cities, they First went TO "synagogs"?
* Did you KNOW, They sought out JEWISH synagog Leaders, met with them, and then followed up CONTACT and more teaching BY LETTERS?

You are just simply resisting the truth

No, I am not resisting the Truth.
The TRUTH, IS Chirst Jesus.
** And the FACT IS:
* The Jews, "UNDER" the Jewish Law, were Waiting for their MESSIAH...
* The Jews, IN ROME, were "UNDER" Roman Law, but not Citizens of Rome, still OPPRESSED.
* Some of The Jews, IN ROME, were Hearing, "their Messiah" had arrived.
* Some of The Jews, IN ROME, were ALREADY, disgarding THEIR Jewish God, of their forefathers AND Functioning in a society and Accepting of Roman gods.
* ...Roman government men, they bowed down to ... as gods.

Review the History of the OT.
Israel (Gods People), (their forefathers)...continuously spoke of "Gods "GOODNESS" and their Praise and Thankfulness to GOD...for His Goodness toward THEM.
OT mentioned 42 Times.

If you do NOT consider, the People of THAT day, you will not Understand WHO Paul was Speaking to "specifically", and "why".

The Jews WHO continued in Gods Goodness in the OT were these Jews forefathers.
Many years (400) had passed by, between these Jews being "steeped" in Godly History and Teaching...and a constant connection

Many of these Jews IN Rome abandoned their God and His Goodness toward THEM!

Now Consider...WHAT was the JEWS EXPECTATION, when their Jewish Messiah ARRIVED.
I know, but do not know IF you know.

Paul was teaching...
FIRST at the get go...
ROMANS 11:11
....that he MIGHT have some fruit among them...
(Which is those WHO, Remain Faithful to God and HAVE accepted Jesus as their Christ Messiah)
....to Jews first then to the greek (Gentiles).
ROMANS 11:16
...Faith to Faith (Faith in God...and Faith in Christ Jesus.
ROMANS 11:17
...those who KNEW God, but strayed, to other beliefs, and were NOT thankful, (of Gods goodness),
ROMANS 11:21
...Paul continues, Preaching, Speaking of Foreskin Circumcision, Works, THAT was a OT Covenant between OT Israel and God.
...Paul continues, Preaching, of a new Covenant between ISRAEL (The Jews, The Tribes and Gentiles)...AND GOD, through Christ Jesus.
...HEARING is merely a beginning.
...many of these people were HEARING something NEW for the first time.
...Paul continues, of the NEGATIVE consequences...
...Of Knowing God, then abandoning Him.
...Of Learning About God for the First time, and rejecting Him.
...Of Learning About Christ Jesus for the First time and rejecting Him.
... OF Jews NOT Abandoning God...but YET not ready to ACCEPT Christ JESUS...
...........TO CONTINUE in HIS Goodness....

How could a Gentile "continue" in Gods Goodness, Be Thankful to God....who NEVER KNEW GOD?

To PROPERLY APPLY GODS "GOODNESS", AND WARNING TO "CONTINUE" IN GODS GOODNESS...TO A GENTILE...

The Gentile would FIRST have to HEAR, LEARN, BELIEVE "in God". Then HEAR, LEARN, BELIEVE "in the One God Sent";
Jesus (the Son of Man).

A Gentile, himself, would be experiencing GODS "GOODNESS"... knowing Him, knowing the Son of Man He sent.

IF such a man CONTINUES...(as Paul was teaching to men WHO had Known God (Jews) and men deciding to Accept his teaching, (Gentiles)...

Their CONTINUANCE...meant...KEEP HEARING, KEEP being Thankful..TO GOD.

You should KNOW, that BY CONTINUING, HEARING...God gifts the UNSAVED MAN...
With MEASURES of FAITH.
The more a man, woman, child, KEEPS Hearing the more Faith he/she is given.
The more Faith he/she receives,
The more they ARE PREPARED to be assured, TO CONFESS THEIR BELIEF.
AND REPENT for having "HAD" disbelief.

You should KNOW,
* ONCE a CONFESSION of REPENTANCE IS MADE;
* ONCE a "HEARTFUL" Confession IS made by a he/she...that they heart-FULLY believe IN God and Christ Jesus...
* BY the Acceptance OF (their Heart-FULL Confession) BY God through Christ Jesus
* THEY ARE Forgiven for having UNBELIEF.
* THEY ARE 'SOUL-fully" restored (soul saved).
* THEY ARE 'HEART-fully" Changed (spirit quickened).
* THEY ARE Recorded in Lambs Book of LIFE, in Heaven.
* THEY ARE Sanctified (set apart).
* THEY ARE Justified (to be Sealed) unto God and BE Redeemed (claimed by the Lord God).

in Romans 11 that plainly destroys that abominable Once Saved Always Saved doctrine!

Romans doesn't destroy anything.
Romans speaks to a mixed crowed, and you refuse to contextually examine What Applies to whom specific and why.

Do you understand a Preacher in a Church, is speaking to Saved, Unsaved, different ages, different genders, some steeped in the Word, some just beginning....and not every spoken word is equally applicable to EVERY person.
It is the individual person who knows if he is a beginner or been Saved for years and a greater distance on the PATH of Knowledge and Understanding.
It's called Rightfully Dividing the Word of Truth.
You want to Divide specifics to AGE and GENDER....that was the point of (the more modern) "Sunday School classes"...little children, young adults, women, men, divided in separate groups, Learning and Studying Scripture specific and " Applicable" to their age and gender.
* 2 Tim 2:
[15] Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth.

I was briefly, but rightly dividing the word of truth concerning Romans 11 and you missed the understanding.

Scripture is FULL of TRUTHS that does NOT APPLY to a man already Saved and Quickened (ie Converted).

 

[Taken]

@Taken said

“Oooooh so hostile. Yet you did not quote one thing, you call an error.”

You have the scripture in YOUR OWN post. Just READ it without bias.

You offer not but criticism, but not lick of specific what you disagree with, or why, or that you have put in context the whole of Pauls LETTER.

 

[marks]

Why do you not stop the habit of putting your words into someone else’s mouth?

These are my exact words and I quote

“A careful reading of those scriptures, in the context of grace through faith, and using the lens of grace through faith, and not works, is suggested.”

“Regarding Romans 11:22, a careful reading of that passage in Romans 11, is in order.“

And from those @justbyfaith said and I quote

“You have said that Romans 11:20-22 is being misinterpreted by some of us because we don't understand it in its context of the whole chapter of Romans 11.”

A misunderstanding, if not, a misrepresentation, if not, a false accusation, if not a poor comprehension, if not, an honest mistake.

Malicious? Hope not.

I am not a teacher nor claim to be one.

Tong
R2797

I applaud you for not being baited!

Much love!

 

[marks]

@Tong2020,

You have said that Romans 11:20-22 is being misinterpreted by some of us because we don't understand it in its context of the whole chapter of Romans 11.

So, here is your opportunity to give your teaching on how the context of the passage nullifies the plain meaning of the passage.

Have at it.

I am really all ears; and I want you to convince me of your point of view.

Paul's talking in Romans 9-11 about people groups, and uses individuals as isolated examples to show how God works with groups, as in, chosing a "nation", a people group, from among others which He hadn't chosen. And showing how subgroups are seen, for instance, the faithful of Israel being the true Israelites.

I'm not going to try to convince you of anything, only, if you read these chapters with this in mind, hopefully you will see it for yourself.

Much love!

 

[Tong2020]

I applaud you for not being baited!

Much love!

The way it was carried out, it just seems that it was not coming out of a sincere desire.

I’ll let him read the Romans 11 passage in the light and context of salvation by grace through faith and viewing it through the lens of grace and faith.

It keeps me thinking why some who claims and profess to have faith in God and Jesus Christ, and talks about faith, seems not to understand what faith is.

Why faith and not works? The answer is found in scriptures, especially in the writings of Paul. Those who considers themselves teachers should know why.

It also keeps me thinking why there those who believe that their salvation can be lost. To them I ask this question: Will a true Christian reject Jesus Christ, Him whom He said he had sincerely and truly received, accepted, and believed in his heart? If one does reject Jesus after accepting him, what does that make him out be? A liar? A hypocrite? A false believer? What?

Tong
R2800

 

[marks]

Why faith and not works? The answer is found in scriptures, especially in the writings of Paul. Those who considers themselves teachers should know why.

Indeed!

Romans 4:13-17 KJV
13) For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14) For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16) Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17) (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

The Answers are there to be found!

Much love!

 

[justbyfaith]

ONCE...a man agrees to accept (according to Gods WAY..."heartful confession of Belief")...
The Continuing in "Gods Goodness", the Continuing in Faith FULLNESS, is expressly KEPT, BY the Internal Power of God...
And that man CAN NEVER be CUT OFF.
That mans BELIEF, is KEPT in BELIEF forever, BY THE INDWELLING POWER OF GOD.
(He is NOT subject to or in danger of Being CUT OFF.)

In Romans 11:20-22, it should be clear that Paul is exhorting those who "stand by faith" that the people of Israel were cut off and that those who "stand by faith" might also be cut off in a similar manner if they do not continue in God's goodness. Read it.

Rom 11:20, Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
Rom 11:21, For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.
Rom 11:22, Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

So, the Lord is speaking to the Gentile church today; and the axe is being laid to the root of the trees. The Gentile church as a whole will be cut off if it does not repent as a whole. The times of the Gentiles will be fulfilled; and the hour will come in history wherein all of Israel shall be saved. This will be a time of great tribulation for all the earth.

But I say to you truly that this time in history can be delayed if God's people, the Christian Gentile church, will humble themselves and pray, and seek His face, and turn from their wicked ways. Then He will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

I would encourage the people of the body of Christ to join me in praying for a Great Awakening that will reach across every denomination and sweep the nations.

And the alternative would be a counterfeit revival that will result in the one-world religion of the Antichrist taking precedence in the lives of the people of earth.

I’ll let him read the Romans 11 passage in the light and context of salvation by grace through faith and viewing it through the lens of grace and faith.

Here is how I see it through that lens...

We have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand (Romans 5:1-2).

Therefore, if we lose or throw away faith, we lose or throw away our access to grace.

We are saved by grace (Ephesians 2:8-9).

Therefore if we no longer have access to grace, we no longer have salvation.

That being said, I do believe that those who have a genuine faith have been sealed by the Holy Spirit and therefore have an everlasting faith.

It also keeps me thinking why there those who believe that their salvation can be lost. To them I ask this question: Will a true Christian reject Jesus Christ, Him whom He said he had sincerely and truly received, accepted, and believed in his heart?

Someone who calls themselves a Christian and who believes themselves to be "eternally secure", may in fact have a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith; and therefore they can fall away in time of temptation (Luke 8:13) or be "cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).

 

[marks]

It also keeps me thinking why there those who believe that their salvation can be lost. To them I ask this question: Will a true Christian reject Jesus Christ, Him whom He said he had sincerely and truly received, accepted, and believed in his heart? If one does reject Jesus after accepting him, what does that make him out be? A liar? A hypocrite? A false believer? What?

Considering that we are given new life by becoming united with our Creator, that He actually lives in us, and our new life is actually the life that comes from Him, eternal, immortal, how exactly would such a life end?

Do we truly suppose that one sin is more than another sin, as if sins weren't from the flesh? That's somehow this spirit child of God will sin? The new creation shares God's nature.

Do we think that doubts which may creep into our minds, as we fail to notice the mind of the flesh, and it's deceits, will somehow overturn God's faithfulness towards us?

As if having truly met our Creator, our God Who says of Himself that He IS love, to turn away? Of such a one Jesus will say, I NEVER knew you.

We can rest, assured, in the simplicity of faith, in the simplicity of His Words.

Much love!

 

[Taken]

In Romans 11:20-22, it should be clear that Paul is exhorting those who "stand by faith" that the people of Israel were cut off and that those who "stand by faith" might also be cut off in a similar manner if they do not continue in God's goodness. Read it.

Already read, Already explicitedly stated my view and expressly said why.

 

[Stumpmaster]

Someone who calls themselves a Christian and who believes themselves to be "eternally secure", may in fact have a nominal, lukewarm, or shallow faith; and therefore they can fall away in time of temptation (Luke 8:13) or be "cut off" (Romans 11:20-22).

Yes, some believe their salvation is assured because they were sprinkled as an infant.
The Parable of the Sower describes three hearers of the Word who fail to thrive.

 

[Wynona]

But I say to you truly that this time in history can be delayed if God's people, the Christian Gentile church, will humble themselves and pray, and seek His face, and turn from their wicked ways. Then He will hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

I would encourage the people of the body of Christ to join me in praying for a Great Awakening that will reach across every denomination and sweep the nations.

Yes! Lets pray for an Awakening!

 

[justbyfaith]

Considering that we are given new life by becoming united with our Creator, that He actually lives in us, and our new life is actually the life that comes from Him, eternal, immortal, how exactly would such a life end?

Do we truly suppose that one sin is more than another sin, as if sins weren't from the flesh? That's somehow this spirit child of God will sin? The new creation shares God's nature.

Do we think that doubts which may creep into our minds, as we fail to notice the mind of the flesh, and it's deceits, will somehow overturn God's faithfulness towards us?

As if having truly met our Creator, our God Who says of Himself that He IS love, to turn away? Of such a one Jesus will say, I NEVER knew you.

We can rest, assured, in the simplicity of faith, in the simplicity of His Words.

Much love!

Let me just say that my understanding of eternal security has to do with POTS rather than OSAS.

POTS...Perseverance Of The Saints...this assumes that you persevere in faith and that you continue to be a saint (holy one).

1Jo 3:6, Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

1Jo 2:17, And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Notice that these verses together speak of eternal security...

Just not without holiness.

Without holiness, no one will see the Lord (Hebrews 12:14).

Yes! Lets pray for an Awakening!

Amen sister.

You praying where you are, and me praying where I am; and others praying where they are, amounts to two or three as touching on the thing that we will ask for.

@amigo de christo.