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Featured Total adherence to Calvinism makes God the author of evil

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by friend of, Jun 14, 2019.

  1. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    Overall, Calvinism is incompatible with free will.

    God's Sovereign Will is everpresent and always ready to be enacted at His good pleasure...

    ...but He does not exercise it for absolutely every minute decision that is made by mortal man, as Calvinism purports.

    If a man were to kill another man in cold blood and then refuse to come to Jesus to recieve remission of sins, this would be no contradiction to God's commandment not to murder, according to Calvinism, because God would be responsible for making that man commit murder and then blocking the notion of recieving Christ for forgiveness from his heart.

    I don't see how anyone could come to the conclusion that this is how God interacts with His creation.

    I expect derision; que sera sera.

    Change my mind.
     
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  2. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    The crucifixion of the Christ is lockstep with God's sovereign will being fulfilled by using wicked men to fulfill it.
    Joseph being sold into slavery is proof that God's sovereign will was being fulfilled by using ppl to fulfill it.
    It was God who stirred up the spirits of Pul and Tilgath-pilneser to attack Israel in 1 Chronicles 5.
    It was God who used the Assyrians in Isaiah 10 to attack Israel for their open rebellion.
    It was God who sent the evil spirit upon King Saul in 1 Samuel.
    It was God who sent Satan to attack Job, yet God was not foolish enough to blame God.

    The mind of man plans his way, But the LORD directs his steps.[Proverbs 16:9]
    The king’s heart is like channels of water in the hand of the LORD; He turns it wherever He wishes.[Proverbs 21:1]
     
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  3. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    Let's look at Joseph for a moment. God uses the hatred his brothers have for him to sell him into slavery and eventually end up in Egypt. Joseph is eventually raised up to be Pharaoh's right hand man. Then there is the seven years of famine. For the non-Calvinists, they would be like, "Boy, it was good that Joseph was sold into slavery, because God could now use Joseph to bring his ppl out from starvation into Egypt and live." We say that God caused this to fulfill His decreed will. He did not allow this to happen(Joseph being sold into slavery), but was the driving force behind it.

    Later on, another Pharaoh takes over, who did not know about Joseph and put the Jews into slavery. Over time, they cry out to God to save them, and He sends them Moses. It was through Moses and Aaron God led the Jews out of Egypt. To the non-Calvinists, they'd say that this was allowed to happen and then God stepped in to remedy the situation. Not so. All of this was by the decreed will of God.
     
  4. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    "Total adherence to Calvinism makes God the author of evil."

    Total bunk.
     
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  5. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This is true when you take Reformed Theology to its logical conclusion. But the writers of the Westminster Confession of Faith carefully avoided this logical conclusion by obfuscating their belief immediately.

    Westminster Confession of Faith
    Chapter III
    Of God's Eternal Decree

    I. God from all eternity, did, by the most wise and holy counsel of His own will, freely, and unchangeably ordain whatsoever comes to pass;...

    [OBFUSCATION]
    ...yet so, as thereby neither is God the author of sin,nor is violence offered to the will of the creatures; nor is the liberty or contingency of second causes taken away, but rather established.

    Which, if understood in its plain sense (and disregarding the obfuscation), means that God has decreed unchangeably every sin, every evil deed, every atrocity ever committed by mortal man. Which makes God responsible for all sin and evil on this earth.

    Of course, we know that this is TOTALLY FALSE, since it violates the character of God, which is absolute righteousness and absolute holiness.
     
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  6. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    So, some things happen that He has no control over?
     
  7. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    [​IMG]

    Seeing that the lost are slaves to sin and Satan, this also includes the will being enslaved as well. Only the Christ can set one free, and this also includes the freeing of their wills.[John 8:31-36]

    [​IMG]

    Prove this.

    “But at the end of that period, I, Nebuchadnezzar, raised my eyes toward heaven and my reason returned to me, and I blessed the Most High and praised and honored Him who lives forever; For His dominion is an everlasting dominion, And His kingdom endures from generation to generation. “All the inhabitants of the earth are accounted as nothing, But He does according to His will in the host of heaven And among the inhabitants of earth; And no one can ward off His hand Or say to Him, ‘What have You done?’
    At that time my reason returned to me. And my majesty and splendor were restored to me for the glory of my kingdom, and my counselors and my nobles began seeking me out; so I was reestablished in my sovereignty, and surpassing greatness was added to me. Now I, Nebuchadnezzar, praise, exalt and honor the King of heaven, for all His works are true and His ways just, and He is able to humble those who walk in pride.”
    [Daniel 4:34-37]

    Even a pagan king could see the Majesty and Splendor of God. Yet, I can not help but think this was a saved man.


    Man is responsible for his sins. He can not blame anyone, not even Satan. You honestly think that we believe God stops ppl from coming to Him? [​IMG] That's not even remotely close to our beliefs. Man won't seek God because the bible says there are NONE who understand, there are NONE who seek Him.[Romans 3:11] It is God who seeks and FINDS His sheep. "What do you think? If any man has a hundred sheep, and one of them has gone astray, does he not leave the ninety-nine on the mountains and go and search for the one that is straying? If it turns out that he finds it, truly I say to you, he rejoices over it more than over the ninety-nine which have not gone astray. So it is not the will of your Father who is in heaven that one of these little ones perish.[Matthew 18:12-14] If He did not seek His sheep, then none would be saved, seeing there are NONE who seek Him.


    Tackle Genesis 50:20, Isaiah 10, 1 Chronicles 5, Acts of the Apostles 2:23, and you will see that God is the way we Calvinists say He is. The sooner you escape being the Romans 9:20 man, the better.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
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  8. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    @Preacher4Truth @Anthony D'Arienzo @Mjh29 @farouk @Laish @Kermos

    We know that for prophecy to truly be prophetic, it must come to pass. That was the litmus test of being a prophet of God found in Deuteronomy 18. Can you imagine all the free will decisions that had to happen just for the Christ to be born in the flesh? Salmon just happened to bump into Rahab after she was saved from the assault on Jericho. Ruth used her free will and leave her country, Moab, to follow Naomi back to Bethlehem. She then just so happens to meet up with Boaz. Later on, David was, just by a stroke of luck, out on the roof of his palace when he saw Bathsheba.

    To make a long story short, there were a total of 42 free will decisions that just so happened to cause the Christ to come in the flesh. If even ONE of these 42 free will decisions doesn't happen, then the Christ would not have come in the flesh, and all those prophecies of Him coming would not be fulfilled. Wow, talk about being lucky with free will!!!!
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  9. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    @Preacher4Truth @Anthony D'Arienzo @Mjh29 @farouk @Laish @Kermos

    Try this on for size...

    Jacob uses his free will and decides to not make Joseph that varicolored tunic(NASB translated it that way). Then Joseph does not tick his brothers off when he gloats around them as he was wearing it. They do not sell him into slavery to the Midianites. He does not go to Egypt. They remain in Canaan and die in the famine. No Israel. No Messiah, as He was to come through the lineage of Judah.

    Or, Jacob makes that tunic, but Joseph uses his free will and does not gloat about it. The brothers would not sell him to the Midianites. They end up starving to death in the famine. No Israel. No Messiah as He was to come through the lineage of Judah.

    Or he gloats about it before his brothers, but they, of their free will, do not decide to sell him into slavery. They end up starving to death in the famine. No Israel. No Messiah, as He was to come through the lineage of Judah.

    Or he gloats, gets sold into Egypt. Poitphar uses his free will and does not buy him. He does not get raised up to be Pharaoh's right hand man. Jacob and his other sons starve to death in Canaan. No Israel. No Messiah, as He was to come through the lineage of Judah.

    Or Potiphar buys him and when his wife lies, he uses his free will and has Joseph executed. They starve to death in Canaan. No Israel. No Messiah, as He was to come through the lineage of Judah.

    Or Potiphar does not have him killed, but he goes to prison and uses his free will to not interpret the butler's dream. He remains in prison and is not raised to be Pharaoh's right hand man. They starve to death in Canaan. No Israel. No Messiah, as He was to come through the lineage of Judah.

    Or he interprets the butler's dream, but the butler uses his free will and decides to not tell Pharaoh that Joseph can interpret dreams. He is not raised to be Pharaoh's right hand man. They starve to death in Canaan. No Israel. No Messiah, as He was to come through the lineage of Judah.

    Or the butler tells Pharaoh Joseph interprets his dream. Pharaoh does not believe him and has him executed. They starve to death in Canaan. No Israel. No Messiah, as He was to come through the lineage of Judah.

    Or Pharaoh believes him, but uses his free will and does not raise Joseph up to be his right hand man. They starve to death in Canaan. No Israel. No Messiah, as He was to come through the lineage of Israel.

    Or....


    Remember, any of these scenarios could've happened. We are not puppets or robots. Yet, any of these scenarios are plausible in their schema.

    Thankfully, @Preacher4Truth @Anthony D'Arienzo @Mjh29 @farouk @Laish @Kermos, we know God is sovereign, even over the teeny tiniest molecule. There is not one thing that happens that He has NOT ordained.
     
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  10. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    Believe it or not, this was a verse that actually came to mind when I made this thread.

    There is a difference between God changing direction (representing a king's willfulness) on a flowing channel of water at precise times to fulfill His ultimate purposes using a bare minimum amount of effort possible, compared with God always having His hand on the flow, directing the channel at every fraction of every split second, never taking His hand off of it.

    Calvinists argue that His hand is always on the channel of heart, directing every minutia of every droplet of water within the stream (of a king's willfulness). Non-Calvinists, like myself, realize the problem this presents for the biblical concept of free will. We realize that God doesn't have to be forcing everything to happen in a certain way in order for His ultimate will to be fulfilled, as He is capable of overcoming any obstacles our willfulness may invent against Him.

    If the will of a king is represented as a stream of water in that verse, then God's redirection of that stream is surely representing decisions of a macro category. And yes, if God so desired, He surely could micromanage every decision made by a king from cradle to grave. Maybe He has. But is this really the way He operates according to scripture?

    God said to Paul "...My grace is sufficient for you, for My power is made perfect in weakness" What I have come to understand about how God moves and enacts His will is that He chooses the weak and despised things of this world to fulfill his purposes. This way He confounds the world and those in it who claim worldly greatness for themselves. He nullifies the mightiest efforts of man with the gentlest breeze, so that truly none may boast before Him. He is hesitant to send calamity (using force) to accomplish His purposes, as He would rather use us to fulfill His will.

    Witness how God took Paul, a weak, fearful, trembling man, beaten and scouraged throughout his mission, God made His instrument to overcome the whole entire world with the Gospel of Jesus Christ. 1 Corinthians 2:3. Would an army the size of Rome have brought greater glory to God had they been given the task? Is not the strong arm of God against creation excessive and far greater than any army of man? God is glorified althemore when His plans come to fruition through the faintest demonstrable movement of His will through his servants, not by an irresistible deluge of His divine might which cannot be withstood by anything in creation.

    Okay, but what's your point? I'm not arguing that God doesn't ever act on His Soveriegn Will to make certain events come to pass. Certainly He does. In no way am I against the truth of God's omnipotence at all. It is surely not required that a Christian be a Calvinist in order to regard the reality of God's omnipotent being. (do correct if I am mistaken)


    I'm going to have to get back to this thread a little later in the week.
     
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  11. friend of

    friend of Well-Known Member

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    He surely is.

    Whether or not His Sovereign Will is always actively being enacted at every single fraction of every single second over every single thought that pops into our heads is what the question of the thread actually is

    ...because your camp is still incapable of demonstrating how the above is supposed to be compatible with Free Will without making God the author of evil impulses/actions.
     
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2019
  12. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    Because humans are enslaved to their wills. Romans 6:15ff and John 8:31-36, with careful attention to John 8:34.
     
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  13. Mjh29

    Mjh29 Well-Known Member

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    Well, ask Pharaoh. God hardened his heart, again and again and again, to the point where Pharaoh hardens his heart all by himself. Joseph's brother couldn't even do evil without God making it for good!

    Not a sparrow dies without it being a part of the plan of God, and without Him allowing it. Everything from the death of an unknown bird upwards is all under the absolute control of God.

    "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, and he gently tries to push it in the direction He want's, but it may not go that way"

    Nope.

    "The king's heart is in the hand of the Lord, and He turns it whithersoever He wills." The verse did not say a creek. or a stream [which i what so many people picture.] It is a river. Have you ever seen a river flow? The currents are strong, and overpowering; they are a force of nature seldom tamed by human hands. This is what God turns; this flowing, gushing, rampaging water of man's heart, and God turns it where He wants it to go. Ever see a completely straight river? Nope, me neither. Rivers are always bending and twisting; some bends are large and pronounced, and yet others are almost invisible to the naked eye. So it is with man's heart; God does not just make big turns; He will also make the tiny, almost unnoticeable changes in man's heart.

    If God did not 'micromanage' [control everything, which really bothers people.] He would not be ALL powerful; He would be almost all-powerful at best.
    If there were some things that God does not control, even if they are small and mundane, His claims of being the All-Powerful God would be a lie.

    Isaiah 14:6
    Revelation 4:8
    Revelation 11:17
    Revelation 15:3
    Job 9:4
    Jeremiah 42:11
    Hebrews 1:3
    2 Corinthians 6:18

    All these passages would then be lies; because the God you describe is not ALL powerful; He is ALMOST ALL powerful; you leave places [by claiming God does not manage aka exercise His power over everything] where God is not in control; where His power is not exercised. This would make God a liar when He says He is ALL-powerful; aka has power over EVERYTHING!

    So, yes; an all-managing God is exactly what the Bible teaches. But we're Calvinists; everything we teach is in the Bible... which is why a lot of people have trouble recognizing it.

     
  14. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    Correct, because none are free in their will or otherwise, nor are they able to come to Christ.

    People aren't saved via their will, John 1:13, nor are any free in their will; John 8:36.

    God is God, and as one has rightly stated, there is not one rogue molecule in the universe. If God did not "exercise" his power, will, what have you, the entirety of the universe would be in jeopardy. Everything holds together due to Christ; Colossians 1:17; all things were created for him and by him; so he is in complete control of them; Colossians 1:16. The Universe is heading right for what God ordained since he is God. He directs men to accomplish his purpose, for he is actually God.

    God doesn't make persons murder others, it's the result of the fall, but he may direct things to his desired end as Scriptures will show below and allow it to take place. He has full right to do so as the whole world is condemned, under wrath, and for him to execute justice is his right.

    Most of what you say shows nescience of what we truly understand from Scripture. You've heard a little here and there, yet haven't studied it to get to the facts which are apparent due to you misrepresenting things. If you had read up, you'd not have posted misinformation.

    Now, when Christ was crucified, God ordained it t happen that way; note Acts 2:23 and Isaiah 53:10. God also moved the Assyrians on his people, then punished them for what they did later on; Isaiah 10:1-26. God used other nations to do the same to Israel, knowing the great atrocities they'd inflict.

    God moved those around Absalom so that he would be killed; 2 Samuel 17:14. God allowed Satan to take the things belonging to Job, including family, possessions, health. Job did not sin with his lips when he said God did it; Job 1:22; Job 2:10.

    Perhaps this is the reason you designed this thread? For derision, or for correction? That's up to you.

    Are you ready to actually listen, accept your erroneous conclusions, and do some serious reading and learning? If of the latter, you'll get your mind changed, if of the former you'll continue to not learn and misrepresent.
     
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  15. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    The entirety of your premise is in the erroneous and unbiblical assumption men and women can choose themselves into eternal life via free will. This is unbiblical my friend.

    I pray God shows this to you and opens your understanding. No need to comment here, there is plenty in my last post.
     
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  16. Preacher4Truth

    Preacher4Truth Well-Known Member

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    That makes God dependent upon man, which he is not. But some make a role reversal via their misunderstandings, traditions, and presuppositions.
     
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  17. SovereignGrace

    SovereignGrace Well-Known Member

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    @friend of here’s the Merriam-Webster dictionary definition of free will...


    —voluntary choice or decision
    —freedom of humans to make choices that are not determined by prior causes or by divine intervention

    The will is never free, but is driven by something. You would never choose to eat something rotten because it would make you queasy just by smelling it. If you put a bale of hay and a piece of meat before a lion, he would never choose the hay, because he’s a carnivore and eating hay would go against his nature. A cow would never eat meat because that’s not it’s nature to do so. A bird will never swim, a fish will never fly, we will never take flight by flapping our arms really, really, hard, because all of these things are not natural for them.

    It goes against the will of fallen man to seek God, because he hates Him. That is why Paul wrote there are none who understands, there are none who seek God.[Romans 3:11] They consider the preaching of the cross as foolishness.[1 Corinthians 1:18]

    So, man’s will is never free. As Paul so poignantly wrote Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?[Romans 6:16] Ppl are either slaves to sin or slaves to righteousness.
     
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  18. Anthony D'Arienzo

    Anthony D'Arienzo Well-Known Member

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    Hello Friend,
    The thing is free will is a carnal philosophical term

    It is never used in the bible of mans will by nature.
    Men have self will, can make choices, but are never free.
    Even in heaven will will not be free to sin
     
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  19. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    Also, calvinist theology removes from man the responsibility of sin.

    Since God predestinates everything....
    God is responsible for sin.

    Then how can a JUST GOD make US responsible for something HE predestined?

    Yes. Calvinism makes no sense at all.
    John must not have known what he was saying when he said:
    1 John 1:9

    What a strange thing to say regarding a God that causes us to sin.
     
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  20. GodsGrace

    GodsGrace Well-Known Member

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    When discussing biblical free will, what we're discussing is NOT philosophical freee will but libertarian free will.

    Man does have libertarian free will.
    Which is the ability to make a moral choice based on the fact that he could have made a different choice from the one made.
     
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