Trinity vs. Tritheism: Understanding the Trinity.

[justbyfaith]

JBF, I believe we see a few things different. the Spirit is eternity, no begining, no end. we have our being in him.

by the spirit sharing himself in flesh there is no difference, eternity is the same for the Spirit. only in time and Spatial did the flesh of his manifested came nto the world.

Just think for a minute, "where do you think your spirit come from?". the spirit right. the body goes back to the dust.. earth, and your spirit returns to God the Spirit from were it came from. supportive scripture, Isaiah 42:5 "Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

if God can bring forth our spirit at a given time and Spatial why can't he come in flesh at his own will?.

PICJAG.

Of course, the words that I have used may be lacking in the ability to communicate what I am trying to bring across.

I'm not sure how what I have said is in contradiction to what you have said above. Maybe you could elaborate a little further as to how you see our doctrines differing in this.

 

[Dave L]

The Father continues to inhabit eternity even after He becomes the Son; He stays behind in eternity and also moves forward into the flesh of Jesus.

So then, He is in the bosom of the One who stayed behind.

Then you have the Father, "inhabiting eternity" and the Son = two persons. The Son is eternal who became the Son of Man in the incarnation.

 

[Dave L]

The Father stays behind in eternity while also moving forward to become the Son.

For it is the nature of eternity that if anyone dwells in it, they dwell in it eternally; and if they were to descend out of it there would continue to be their eternal self remaining in it.

But the Son exists before the incarnation. Also meaning the Father does too. How could God send his Son if he did not exist before the incarnation?

 

[Dave L]

Some things are not yet revealed...which is not to say that they cannot be revealed.

But many of us know the answer.

 

[Dave L]

If creeds state what scripture states then why bother reading the creeds? Just read the Bible and ask the Holy Spirit to reveal the meaning of it to you....the Holy Spirit is the BEST teacher!.

Because no body takes the time or has the time to exhaust what the bible says on any given topic. The creeds are refined statements on what the bible teaches written sometimes over a period of years of debate. The Westminster Confession took nearly ten years to refine.

 

[Dave L]

Thanks for the reply, second,
You don’t study. You rely on other men. Scripture, 1 Corinthians 3:9 "For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building.
1 Corinthians 3:10 "According to the grace of God which is given unto me, as a wise masterbuilder, I have laid the foundation, and another buildeth thereon. But let every man take heed how he buildeth thereupon.
1 Corinthians 3:11 "For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
1 Corinthians 3:12 "Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1 Corinthians 3:13 "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1 Corinthians 3:14 "If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
1 Corinthians 3:15 "If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

What you need to do is this dave, 2 Timothy 2:15 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth”.

“Now concerning that day and hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son —except the Father only.” (Matthew 24:36) (HCSB)
See the topic, “JESUS, the Holy Spirit, the Only True God “, and read Post #119 ...

PICJAG.

If you have time, this might interest you. It's long but you can hop around in it, and see a skilled debate between oneness and trinitarian scholars.

 

[101G]

If you have time, this might interest you. It's long but you can hop around in it, and see a skilled debate between oneness and trinitarian scholars.

GINOLJC, to all.
that's an old one seen it, get some new ones. and walter, when alive had no substance, well trained, but ill informes, as well as David Bernard on oneness, and Gene Cook on the trinity.
I have heard them all and all of them come short. the best one I seen is

and both flopped. but each had some good points.
remember dave I'm diversified oneness not oneness as the UPC....

and look later today I would like to discuss the titles "Father" and "Son". but I'll be out for most of the day.

PICJAG

 

[Dave L]

GINOLJC, to all.
that's an old one seen it, get some new ones. and walter, when alive had no substance, well trained, but ill informes, as well as David Bernard on oneness, and Gene Cook on the trinity.
I have heard them all and all of them come short. the best one I seen is

and both flopped. but each had some good points.
remember dave I'm diversified oneness not oneness as the UPC....

and look later today I would like to discuss the titles "Father" and "Son". but I'll be out for most of the day.

PICJAG

Whether or not you like this sort of thing, good points, some irrefutable become well know. I think Dr. Brown is a poor example of scholarship. And is known as a false prophet.

 

[justbyfaith]

Then you have the Father, "inhabiting eternity" and the Son = two persons.

What I have been saying all along. The Father and the Son are distinct but not separate. They are the same Person in that the Father became the Son, but distinct in that the Father inhabits eternity as a Spirit and the Son dwells in human flesh.

The Son is eternal who became the Son of Man in the incarnation.

The Father became the Son in the incarnation; it was not 1/3 of God who descended to become a Man; neither was it a 2nd God.

I am still waiting for the scripture that tells us about the eternal generation of the Son. The Son is eternal: but He had His beginnings in that He was begotten in the incarnation (Matthew 1:18-20,Luke 1:35), and then when He rose from the dead, He rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) and thus he also inhaboteth eternity in His resurrected body (Isaiah 57:15).

But the Son exists before the incarnation. Also meaning the Father does too. How could God send his Son if he did not exist before the incarnation?

The Son exists before the incarnation as the Father. And, as concerning time, since He rose to be outside of time, the Son, as concerning His future to being begotten, exists before He was even born. He had His beginning in the incarnation, but rose to fill all things, to be outside of time; and therefore being outside of time, He has access to all of time and exists throughout all of time. And yet He was born in 5 A.D. as the Father descended after having lived one eternal moment to become Him (see Ephesians 3:11). As soon as there was nothing left for the Father to do from the perspective of being Lord of all as the eternal One, He retired and went on to the next step of His ministry in becoming the Son of God.

 

[Dave L]

What I have been saying all along. The Father and the Son are distinct but not separate. They are the same Person in that the Father became the Son, but distinct in that the Father inhabits eternity as a Spirit and the Son dwells in human flesh.



The Father became the Son in the incarnation; it was not 1/3 of God who descended to become a Man; neither was it a 2nd God.

I am still waiting for the scripture that tells us about the eternal generation of the Son. The Son is eternal: but He had His beginnings in that He was begotten in the incarnation, and then when He rose from the dead, He rose to fill all things (Ephesians 4:10) and thus he also inhaboteth eternity in His resurrected body (Isaiah 57:15).



The Son exists before the incarnation as the Father. And, as concerning time, since He rose to be outside of time, the Son, as concerning His future to being begotten, exists before He was even born. He had His beginning in the incarnation, but rose to fill all things, to be outside of time; and therefore being outside of time, He has access to all of time and exists throughout all of time. And yet He was born in 5 A.D. as the Father descended after having lived one eternal moment to become Him (see Ephesians 3:11). As soon as there was nothing left for the Father to do from the perspective of being Lord of all as the eternal One, He retired and went on to the next step of His ministry in becoming the Son of God.

This is a false depiction of God. Had you said the Father and the Son are distinct persons but of the same single Spirit, you would be correct. In studying your position more in depth I believe you are using the limited view of God provided by the OT as a constraint on the fuller complete view of God provided by the NT. Normally we take the new information and make the old info conform to it. Thus One Spirit with three persons. Not one person three roles.

 

[101G]

What I have been saying all along. The Father and the Son are distinct but not separate. They are the same Person in that the Father became the Son, but distinct in that the Father inhabits eternity as a Spirit and the Son dwells in human flesh.

you almost describing "diversified Oneness". the Spirit is Not a separate or divided person. the Spirit is the "Shared" person of "HIMSELF" in flesh. just as G243 allos states.

you're almost there as well trinitarian. just meet in the middle and you'll have "Diversified Oneness".

as said, the key to all of the confusion is "Sharing" of the Spirit vs "separation".

the Sharing of oneself, the Spirit, in flesh is the answer to all the confusion.

PICJAG

 

[Dave L]

you almost describing "diversified Oneness". the Spirit is Not a separate or divided person. the Spirit is the "Shared" person of "HIMSELF" in flesh. just as G243 allos states.

you're almost there as well trinitarian. just meet in the middle and you'll have "Diversified Oneness".

as said, the key to all of the confusion is "Sharing" of the Spirit vs "separation".

the Sharing of oneself, the Spirit, in flesh is the answer to all the confusion.

PICJAG

The Father cannot change into the Son. The Father eternally begets the Son (causes him to exist). If the Father changes into the Son, God ceases to exist.

 

[justbyfaith]

This is a false depiction of God. Had you said the Father and the Son are distinct persons but of the same single Spirit, you would be correct.

Show to us all biblically how what I have presented is a false depiction of God. I say that your understanding is a false depiction.

There is one Spirit

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

the Father

Jhn 4:23, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

the Son

Col 1:27, To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 5:12, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

and the Holy Ghost

Jhn 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

2Ti 1:14, That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

A question: how many Spirits dwell in the believer?

Again, see Ephesians 4:4.

In studying your position more in depth I believe you are using the limited view of God provided by the OT as a constraint on the fuller complete view of God provided by the NT. Normally we take the new information and make the old info conform to it.

The more accurate approach is to have the old as a foundation and to build on it what is new.

Thus One Spirit with three persons. Not one person three roles.

It is taking it too far to say that I define the Godhead as being one person three roles. I define the Godhead as being one Person and yet three Persons. There is one God, and God is a Person. Because He descended to become a Man, and that Man is distinct in personality from the eternal Spirit who inhabiteth eternity, and yet is the same Person (only He has taken on the added nature of human flesh); therefore it can be said that the Father and the Son are distinct Persons while they are also the same Person.

And I am saying nothing here new, that I haven't been saying all along.

 

[Dave L]

Show to us all biblically how what I have presented is a false depiction of God. I say that your understanding is a false depiction.

There is one Spirit

Eph 4:4, There is one body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;

the Father

Jhn 4:23, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
Jhn 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.

the Son

Col 1:27, To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1Jo 5:12, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

and the Holy Ghost

Jhn 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

2Ti 1:14, That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.

A question: how many Spirits dwell in the believer?



The more accurate approach is to have the old as a foundation and to build on it what is new.



It is taking it too far to say that I define the Godhead as being one person three roles. I define the Godhead as being one Person and yet three Persons. There is one God, and God is a Person. Because He descended to become a Man, and that Man is distinct in personality from the eternal Spirit who inhabiteth eternity, and yet is the same Person (only He has taken on the added nature of human flesh); therefore it can be said that the Father and the Son are distinct Persons while they are also the same Person.

And I am saying nothing here new, that I haven't been saying all along.

How do you answer this? ““Now concerning that day and hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son —except the Father only.” (Matthew 24:36) (HCSB) How can the Father know something the Son does not know if they are the same person?

 

[justbyfaith]

The Father eternally begets the Son (causes him to exist).

Scripture, please.

 

[101G]

The Father cannot change into the Son. The Father eternally begets the Son (causes him to exist). If the Father changes into the Son, God ceases to exist.

did I say the Father Changed into anyone or thing?.

now what did the Father begot? ... flesh, and it was the Holy Spirit that begot that flesh, supportive scripture, Matthew 1:20 "But while he thought on these things, behold, the angel of the Lord appeared unto him in a dream, saying, Joseph, thou son of David, fear not to take unto thee Mary thy wife: for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Ghost".

OK dave truth time. the child conceived in Mary is of the Holy Ghost, and the conceiver of any child is the "FATHER". so it is the Holy Ghost who is the FATHER.

your answer please.

 

[justbyfaith]

How do you answer this? ““Now concerning that day and hour no one knows—neither the angels in heaven, nor the Son —except the Father only.” (Matthew 24:36) (HCSB) How can the Father know something the Son does not know if they are the same person?

The Father dwells in the Son; but the Son being in a finite human body is relegated to limited knowledge that will fit in His finite human brain. The Spirit that dwells within Him knows the day and hour...the human Man Christ Jesus does not.

If you continue to lack understanding on this maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit to show you the answer. He is certainly able to do so where my explanation is limited by the language that I use to try to describe it. If you get a revelation from the Holy Spirit it may indeed supersede human language so that you may never be able to take human words and describe your revelation adequately to another person...you can only try to give them the best facsimile of what God has shown you in the hopes that the Holy Spirit will take them the rest of the way in their understanding.

 

[101G]

yes, the Holy Ghost is the "FATHER" post #816

dave your answer please.

PICJAG.

 

[Dave L]

The Father dwells in the Son; but the Son being in a finite human body is relegated to limited knowledge that will fit in His finite human brain. The Spirit that dwells within Him knows the day and hour...the human Man Christ Jesus does not.

If you continue to lack understanding on this maybe you should ask the Holy Spirit to show you the answer. He is certainly able to do so where my explanation is limited by the language that I use to try to describe it. If you get a revelation from the Holy Spirit it may indeed supersede human language so that you may never be able to take human words and describe your revelation adequately to another person...you can only try to give them the best facsimile of what God has shown you in the hopes that the Holy Spirit will take them the rest of the way in their understanding.

So how does the Son know when to return if the Father changed into him and no longer exists? Where's the return to earth info stored?

 

[Dave L]

yes, the Holy Ghost is the "FATHER" post #816

dave your answer please.

PICJAG.

How do you explain this? “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with [greek (pros)= in addition to] God, and the Word was God.” (John 1:1) (NASB95)