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Featured Trinity vs. Tritheism

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Here's a synopsis of the Doctrine of Christ. Read it and tell me who you think was speaking.
    The Trinity doctrine, proven to be true over the centuries through strenuous debate says; (1) There is only one God. (2) The Father is God. (3) The Son is God. (4) The Holy Spirit is God. (5) The Father is not the Son. (6) The Son is the not the Holy Spirit. (7) The Holy Spirit is not the Father.

    Chalcedonian Creed

    We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood;

    truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body;

    consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood;

    in all things like unto us, without sin;

    begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood;
    --------------------------------------------
    > one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably;

    > the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ;
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

    Any who do not agree with this standard, do not worship Christ.
     
  2. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Chalcedonian Creed

    We, then, following the holy Fathers, all with one consent, teach people to confess one and the same Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, the same perfect in Godhead and also perfect in manhood;

    truly God and truly man, of a reasonable [rational] soul and body;

    consubstantial [co-essential] with the Father according to the Godhead, and consubstantial with us according to the Manhood;

    in all things like unto us, without sin;

    begotten before all ages of the Father according to the Godhead, and in these latter days, for us and for our salvation, born of the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God, according to the Manhood;
    --------------------------------------------
    > one and the same Christ, Son, Lord, only begotten, to be acknowledged in two natures, inconfusedly, unchangeably, indivisibly, inseparably;

    > the distinction of natures being by no means taken away by the union, but rather the property of each nature being preserved, and concurring in one Person and one Subsistence, not parted or divided into two persons, but one and the same Son, and only begotten, God the Word, the Lord Jesus Christ;
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    as the prophets from the beginning [have declared] concerning Him, and the Lord Jesus Christ Himself has taught us, and the Creed of the holy Fathers has handed down to us.

    If you understand this, you will understand Christ.
     
  3. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.

    If anyone cannot say that Jesus is the Lord in light of these verses, he does not belong to Christ:

    1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    Rom 8:9, But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

    @Dave L, do you confess that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21?
     
  4. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    you're amost there, seed definition biblically is an offspring, or With reference to a persons salvation faith in Christ a seed of the gospel is sown.

    too many Christian take it biologically, but rather metaphorically to a Spiritual Life. example,
    Isaiah 1:4 "Ah sinful nation, a people laden with iniquity, a seed of evildoers, children that are corrupters: they have forsaken the LORD, they have provoked the Holy One of Israel unto anger, they are gone away backward”

    HEBREW, Seed: .H2233 זֶרַע zera` (zeh'-rah) n-m.
    1. seed.
    2. (figuratively) fruit, plant, sowing-time, posterity.
    [from H2232]
    KJV: X carnally, child, fruitful, seed(-time), sowing- time.

    another example, Matthew 12:34 "O generation of vipers, how can ye, being evil, speak good things? for out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaketh".

    this Generation of "vipers"/snakes is in reference to the devil in the Garden.

    as with Mary the :seed: of David is an offspring, or child through the line of David.

    PICJAG
     
  5. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Ironically, I confess Jesus is THE Lord and you do not. You assign his name to your idol and false representation of him.
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Well, now, you have just agreed that Jesus is the Father!

    For there is one Lord:

    Eph 4:5, One Lord, one faith, one baptism,

    1Co 8:6, But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.

    In saying that Jesus is the Lord in light of Matthew 11:25 and Luke 10:21, you have therefore agreed that Jesus is the Father.

    For there is one Lord (cf. above), and that Lord is the Father:

    Mat 11:25, At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.

    Luk 10:21, In that hour Jesus rejoiced in spirit, and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes: even so, Father; for so it seemed good in thy sight.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  7. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    You are taking the limited revelation of God in the OT, and censoring the complete revelation of God in the NT. Jesus Christ is the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each a distinct person in God. Each eternally present without beginning or end. You are like the unbelieving Jews who today reject God, worshiping in name only. And they and you have the Spirit of Antichrist in your rejection of the full revelation according to John.
     
    Last edited: Jan 28, 2019
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    And you are ignoring the clear testimony of scripture.


    Also, if we ask for, and/or do what it takes to receive, an egg, the Lord is not going to give us a scorpion.

    Therefore the god you believe in is capricious, like the god of the Muslims, in that he would give a scorpion to someone who asks for an egg.

    My God is not like that. He is love.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  9. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    But you and @101G show evidence of having the spirit of Antichrist by denying both the Father and the Son. You do this by denying each (both) are distinct persons. And redefine scripture making BOTH nothing more than one person wearing two hats...so to speak.

    Here's a couple warning labels you should wear like a pack of cigarettes.

    “Whosoever transgresseth, and abideth not in the doctrine of Christ, hath not God. He that abideth in the doctrine of Christ, he hath both the Father and the Son. If there come any unto you, and bring not this doctrine, receive him not into your house, neither bid him God speed: for he that biddeth him God speed is partaker of his evil deeds.” (2 John 9–11) (KJV 1900)

    “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22) (KJV 1900)
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    First of all, we are going in circles.

    Secondly, I cannot have the spirit of Antichrist because I have done what it takes to receive the Holy Ghost (the Spirit of the Lord); and the Lord is not going to give a scorpion to someone who asks for, or does what it takes to receive, an egg.

    Thirdly, I don't know about @101G; but personally I do not deny that Father and Son are distinct from each other, although they are the same Person.

    The problem lies in that you are not seeking to understand my pov.

    Instead, you are allowing your carnal mind to raise objections to what I am saying based on your lack of understanding of what I am saying.

    It should be clear from the holy scriptures that there is one God (James 2:19, Deuteronomy 6:4). Since the shema of Judaism is foundational to our Christian faith, we must begin there. Jesus said, I and my Father are one. He did not mean one in purpose; He meant that they are the same Spirit, the same Lord, the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

    If you would only receive it, the Father became the Son: and therefore the Father is not the Son but the Son is the Father (in essence).

    1Co 2:14, But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

    I don't know that there is any hope for you, @Dave L, since you have said that the Holy Ghost, who dwells in me, is the spirit of Antichrist...and to me that could very well amount to blasphemy of the Holy Ghost...however, the Lord Jesus is your judge and not I, so I will defer that judgment to Him.
     
  11. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    You are going in the wrong circles. Jesus said the gates of hell will not prevail against the church. And those who teach as you do were reduced to cult status by the early church, and have never recovered. What you are unwittingly claiming is that Christianity, the only trinitarian religion in the world has been wrong since the days of the Apostles. And you and a few like minded, untrained in the scriptures, are right.

    And John says; “They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.” (1 John 2:19) (KJV 1900)

    “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son. Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.” (1 John 2:22–23) (KJV 1900)
     
  12. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Careful Dave, this accusation may come back are bite you on your posteriorly protrusion.

    Remember a studious person does not always learn about helpful things
     
  13. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    thanks for the vote of confidence ............. lol... :eek: (smile)

    let me make myself crystal clear. I do not believe in a PERSON called the Father that is distinct and separated from the Son. "Father" and "Son" are not separate and distinct Persons, but are only titles of the SAME ONE PERSON "Diversified" in flesh and bones. are we clear here.

    my central tenet in "diversified Oneness" is the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost "ONLY". no three Persons, but "ONE" person Diversified..... :cool:

    PICJAG.
     
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Roe v. Wade had the decision that it did because of, and even for this reason: all the facts were not presented when they made the decision to allow abortions. If the decision had been made today, with the information available that we have concerning how the person in the womb is a living person, any Supreme Court Justice in their right minds would have ruled that that unborn baby has the right to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness and 61 million babies would have never been murdered.

    My point being, that sometimes decisions can be made that have lasting effects on how things operate for decades (even centuries) to come; but that this does not mean that those decisions were made with all the facts on the table; and (especially) neither does it mean that those decisions were the right ones.

    The true church of the living Christ is an invisible entity; it consists of all those who truly believe in Jesus Christ.

    Was Martin Luther excommunicated from the Catholic Church, and the Protestant Reformation began because of this? What makes that any different from the breaking off of Oneness adherents from the Trinitarian believers in the time that they did so?

    It seems to me that it was the Trinitarians who broke off from the Oneness adherents; the Oneness adherents did not leave the church; but were excommunicated as was Martin Luther and his Protestant friends. Did he leave the church and therefore was not of it? No; in all reality he was standing up for the purity of the church and those who were left behind (in the Catholic Church) were in the wrong.

    Therefore the Trinitarians left the true church and saved face by excommunicating those whom they left; because they had the power to do so. Yes, sometimes the devil has the upper hand when it comes to this kind of power (even most often).

    But I will say that the "Trinitarians" that I am speaking of were not Trinitarians at all; but rather were Tritheists, if I am not mistaken. They gave lip service to the idea that God is one but in all reality believed in three Gods: and therefore they were never in the true church in the first place. Thus in leaving them the Oneness adherents proved that they were not of them to the praise of those Oneness adherents: it shows that the Oneness adherents were, in fact, faithful to the truth.

    Also, to deny the Father and the Son is to deny that Jesus is the Christ (that is, to deny Jesus); and this would indicate to me, that Jesus is the Father and the Son. Even as you, @Dave L, have admitted that Jesus Christ is the name of the Father, even of the Son, even of the Holy Ghost.
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2019
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    @Dave L,

    you claim that I have the spirit of Antichrist; and yet in this very thread I gave you something like four or five opportunities to confess that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh and you would not and did not do it.

    This would indicate that you have three fingers pointing back at you.
     
  16. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Okay, there's at least 4 of us here who hold to 4 different versions of how the Godhead is revealed (in as much as it is revealed at all).

    101 believes in 'diversified oneness'...quote: my central tenet in "diversified Oneness" is the Holy Ghost, and the Holy Ghost "ONLY". no three Persons, but "ONE" person Diversified.....

    justbyfaith believes in oneness...quote: there is one God (James 2:19, Deuteronomy 6:4). Since the shema of Judaism is foundational to our Christian faith, we must begin there. Jesus said, I and my Father are one. He did not mean one in purpose; He meant that they are the same Spirit, the same Lord, the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

    daveL believes in a more orthodox trinity....quote: Jesus Christ is the Name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Each a distinct person in God. Each eternally present without beginning or end.

    Me, brakelite esq. believes in all 3 members of the Godhead, Father, Son, and holy Spirit. But brakelite esq. also believes that the Son is really truly a Son, begotten in eternity (which I believe does not mean the same age as the Father, else how could He be a Son). The holy Spirit, as scripture informs us, belongs to both Father and Son. It also is a person, but cannot be in the same sense of personality as the other two...as the Spirit can be 'poured out', 'hover over the face of waters', we can be 'filled with the Spirit', and yet it can be grieved etc. Yet again, scripture informs us that there is only one true God...informed us by the way from the very words of that one true God's only begotten Son. Now I am one who prefers to stop right there as far as painting a picture of the Godhead is concerned. That much, I believe is scriptural...I am reluctant in going any further as it starts to complicate matters by introducing assumptions not clearly taught.

    As far as this is concerned...
    I think this is up for debate. Sure, there were what we now call Arians in the Christian scene, and in fact a very formidable and powerful part of it...even nations such as the Ostrogoths, Vandals, and Heruli, along with some others, were avowedly "Arian", and certainly professed as Christians...long before Athanasius came on the scene to convince a Roman emperor to disavow them. What is interesting, is that the orthodox church of Rome then went about to destroy all the works and writings of Arius, and were very successful in doing so, to the extent we have today precious little of what he wrote regarding his actual beliefs....and what we do have could very well have been subject to fakery. Of course, that little letter we have certainly attests to an errant belief in the non-divinity of the Son of God. However, another evangelist who converted the Ostrogoths (who the papacy opposed bitterly to the point of having them exterminated because of the differing views on the Godhead), , by the name of Wulfilas, did leave behind writings which attest strongly to His semi-orthodox belief in the begotten literal nature of the Son of God, and because of that relationship with the Father, the only true God, must also share the same nature, and the same name, as the Father. God.

    So who were these 'oneness' people you speak of? Arius, on whose word of a pagan emperor and the Antichrist we must rely on as to his beliefs? Wulfilas, who genuinely believed in the full Godhead, only not as the orthodox defined it, or someone else perhaps we don't know about?
     
  17. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    As far as any one of us being "right" in his views on the Godhead, I will avow that not one of us is "right". Certainly not on the matter of a subject which depends upon fallen sinful natures to determine and define the nature of the invisible only immortal holy Creator of all things. It is laughable that any of us should strive against one another proclaiming others "antichrist" and/or heretic, as if any of us can understand God. Pfsst.
     
  18. brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

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    Some of us may be closer than others, but all of us are so distant from reality our differences are by comparison negligible. I think when our pride and ego begins to get the better of us, we need to read again Ezekiel 1....Revelation 4,5......and then do as Isaiah6:1-7.
     
  19. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    Oneness = the Spirit of Antichrist. “Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.” (1 John 2:22) (KJV 1900)

    You do this by redefining the Son making him created. John says the Son is the eternal God in John 1:1ff.
     
  20. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

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    You redefine biblical terms and then deny your error. If you define the terms by scripture, you exhibit the spirit of Antichrist in all of your claims. Especially in making the Son created. This denies that Jesus is God.
     
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