1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Trinity vs. Tritheism

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by justbyfaith, Jan 8, 2019.

  1. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,712
    Likes Received:
    2,260
    The Biblical witness for God in Three Persons is overwhelming; see John's Gospel, esp.chapters 13-17; Romans 8, end of Matthew 28; John's First Epistle, etc.
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    And I am certainly not denying this; but am emphasizing the fact that there is still only one God.

    Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).
     
  3. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,712
    Likes Received:
    2,260
    One God in Three Persons; Three Persons in One God.
     
  4. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Three Persons who are the same Person/God.
     
  5. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,105
    Likes Received:
    1,079
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    So many people do not know the meaning of Elohim, Trinity and uniplural.

    A unipolar rule is multiples working together as a singular unity, such as a committee,

    Elohim means three or more distinct individuals in a singular Godhead.

    Trinity means tri-unity, three individuals in the unity of one.

    Army is singular but it has thousands of members. A marriage is a singular unity of two people.
     
  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It would be that there are three individuals indwelt by the same Spirit; except each one of those individuals is the one Spirit that is God.

    Scriptures to ponder:
    Eph 4:4, There is one body and one Spirit, and even as ye are called in one hope of your calling;
    .
    .
    .
    Jhn 4:23, But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.
    Jhn 4:24, God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Jhn 14:7, If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.
    Jhn 14:8, Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.
    Jhn 14:9, Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father?
    Jhn 14:10, Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.
    Jhn 14:11, Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake.
    .
    .
    .
    Jhn 7:37, In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.
    Jhn 7:38, He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.
    Jhn 7:39, (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

    2Ti 1:14, That good thing which was committed unto thee keep by the Holy Ghost which dwelleth in us.
    .
    .
    .
    2Co 3:17, Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

    w/
    1Co 12:3, Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost.

    1Jo 5:12, He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

    Col 1:27, To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

    Eph 3:17, That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love,
    .
    .
    .
    Eph 4:6, One God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all.
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2019
  7. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,105
    Likes Received:
    1,079
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    God is not physical, therefore not indwelt.

    Three completely different individuals.
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Oh...okay...three Gods then...

    That is not what my Bible teaches...it teaches that there is one Spirit, one Lord, and one God...

    It teaches that the Lord is the Spirit (2 Corinthians 3:17) and that God the Father is a Spirit (John 4:23-24) and the Lord of heaven and earth (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). And it teaches that there is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) and that His name is Jesus Christ (1 Corinthians 12:3, 1 Corinthians 8:6).

    Therefore, it teaches that the one Spirit, one Lord, and one God are inseparable: they are the same Spirit, the same Lord, and the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).
     
  9. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,105
    Likes Received:
    1,079
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    You do not understand the meaning of Elohim or Hebrew uniplural.

    When the scouts went into the promised they brought back demo grapes on the pole. The Hebrew literally said 'a grape, meaning many grapes in the unity of one stem.

    A man and a woman are in a marriage as a unity of two. As the Bible says they become one flesh.

    Church is singular but composed of millions of believers.

    Elohim/God is referring to the unity of the three, not them as individuals.
     
  10. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,712
    Likes Received:
    2,260
    No; three Persons, one God.
     
  11. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I have given evidence for the truth of the matter in previous posts; therefore if you are not convinced by the scriptures I have shown forth, then we will have to agree to disagree.

    I do not know that it is an essential issue, except for the fact that it is the truth and I think that anyone in their right minds will want to believe in the truth.

    If, on the other hand, you are secretly pandering to the idea of three Gods and do not understand how the three Persons in the Trinity are absolutely one, then that would make you a Tritheist and therefore outside the realm of true orthodoxy.

    Isaiah 9:6 is a key verse for your understanding. I know that certain people twist that verse by changing the wording not once but twice in order to get it to say what they want it to say: I would just encourage you to take it at face value.

    The name of the son that is given shall be called among other things the everlasting Father; and the zeal of the Lord of hosts shall perform this. Isaiah 9:6-7.

    I would encourage you to consider the Oneness of the Lord to the exclusion of His threeness and to meditate on that aspect of His Triune nature; so that you can understand the one aspect of the Triunity of the Lord.

    In other words, set aside for a moment your understanding of the distinctions between the members of the Trinity so that you can understand His Oneness better.

    Sometimes you have to look at the picture from a different angle in order to see what you have been missing all along.

    Love in Christ,

    justbyfaith.
     
  12. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,105
    Likes Received:
    1,079
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    there is no contradiction in the oneness of God, meaning his unity, while upholding his Trinity.

    You need to learn the meaning of uniplural, which is in the Old Testament multiple times. And that Elohim means three persons in a unity of one God.

    So you can quote all the verses you want talking about one God and none of them deny Trinity.
     
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yet, when you do the same with the term "Lord" it is a little different. The fact that there is one Lord means that there is one who is ruling. And therefore when it says that there is one Lord, there can only be one Lord, not three-in-one (although that is the conclusion I ultimately come to).

    There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5), the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21). And no one can say that Jesus is the Lord except by the Holy Ghost (1 Corinthians 12:3).

    Also, Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are the same Spirit, the same Lord, the same God (1 Corinthians 12:4-6).

    There is one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4); the Father (John 4:23-24), the Son (Ephesians 3:17, Colossians 1:27, 1 John 5:12), and the Holy Ghost (John 7:37-39).

    There is one Lord (Ephesians 4:5); the Father (Matthew 11:25, Luke 10:21), the Son (1 Corinthians 8:6, 1 Corinthians 12:3), and the Holy Ghost (2 Corinthians 3:17).

    There is one God (Ephesians 4:6 (kjv)); the Father (Ephesians 4:6 (kjv), James 3:9 (kjv), 1 Corinthians 8:6, Romans 15:6), the Son (Hebrews 1:8), and the Holy Ghost (Acts of the Apostles 5:3-4).

    This does not translate into there being nine members in the Godhead. See Deuteronomy 6:4 and James 2:19 and John 10:30.

    It is spoken to prove that in Ephesians 4:4-6, when it says there is one Spirit, it is not referring to the Holy Spirit alone; when it says there is one Lord, it is not referring to Jesus alone; and when it says there is one God, it is not referring to the Father alone (although I would suggest to you that it is; and that the Son is the Father and therefore also God).

    So the one Spirit (Ephesians 4:4) is not referring only to the Holy Ghost but to all members of the Trinity.

    The one Lord (Ephesians 4:5) is not referring only to the 2nd Person (the Son) but to all members of the Trinity.

    The one God is referring to the Father alone and to all members of the Trinity.

    There is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4, James 2:19, John 10:30, Ephesians 4:6).
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  14. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    In the declaring that I have one cluster of grapes, or one bunch of bananas, the adjective/noun cluster or bunch is singular but you cannot help but make the noun bananas or grapes plural.

    If you apply this to God you cannot help but say that there is one bunch or cluster of Gods.

    My version of it is closer to saying that there is one bunch or cluster of God (singular); wherein the plural unity is in the word cluster or bunch, but that it should be clear that God is one (in the normal definition of that word as we use it in everyday language; in that of singular usage).

    But I don't expect you to receive the understanding of this in a moment of time. The natural mind does not receive the things of the Spirit of the Lord.

    In saying that there is one cluster or bunch of God, I am not referring to the similarity to a multiplicity of bananas or grapes in a bunch or cluster.

    It would be more like a situation where the bunch of banana contains one banana in it. It would be a situation where, if you were on some kind of drug trip, you might be able to comprehend how three bananas in a bunch were all the same banana. Or, how one banana might split into three full bananas that are all the same banana, but that only the 2nd of the three even has a banana peel.
     
    Last edited: Feb 1, 2019
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It would be like, if you could take a banana without a peel, put a peel on it, but somehow the banana without a peel continues to exist as a distinct banana from the banana with a peel. Then you unpeel the 2nd banana, but it also retains its existence as a banana with a peel; and the 3rd banana without a peel has all the experience of having had a peel and shedding that peel. This is the difference between the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost; and how they are distinct...but you have to delve into the supernatural to be able to comprehend how all three bananas are the same banana.
     
  16. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,712
    Likes Received:
    2,260
    It ought to go without saying that I don't deny that God is one: Scripture teaches it. There are also Three Divine Persons, which Scripture also teaches.

    A literal rendering of the Isaiah 9.6 phrase would be 'the Father of eternity': this is referring to the Son, in the context, and this is in keeping with John 1.1.
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    The Father of eternity is still the Father. Try again.

    Like I said, in order to come up with a "traditional" Trinitarian concept in Isaiah 9:6, you have to change the wording (saying that Holy Spirit goofed in the translation of the kjv) not once, but twice.
     
  18. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,939
    Likes Received:
    902
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
  19. CoreIssue

    CoreIssue Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,105
    Likes Received:
    1,079
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    But the union as one God remains.
     
  20. Dave L

    Dave L Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,515
    Likes Received:
    1,988
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Plurality of God
    Gen. 1:26, “Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness...”

    Gen. 19:24, “Then the LORD rained on Sodom and Gomorrah brimstone and fire from the LORD out of heaven.”

    Amos 4:10-11, “‘I sent a plague among you after the manner of Egypt; I slew your young men by the sword along with your captured horses, and I made the stench of your camp rise up in your nostrils; yet you have not returned to Me,’ declares the LORD. ‘I overthrew you as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah...’”

    Isaiah 44:6, “Thus says the LORD, the King of Israel and his Redeemer, the LORD of hosts: ‘I am the first and I am the last, and there is no God besides me...‘” See also, Isaiah 48:16.
     
Loading...