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Trinity?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by afaithfulone4u, Apr 1, 2013.

  1. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    Yes!

    Joh 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    Joh 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.
    Joh 1:11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
    Joh 1:12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

    Those who deny Christ is He have no life in them....they are dead.
     
  2. Rex

    Rex New Member

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    The first words of God Gen 3:1 \\\\\\\\\\\\===========>> And God said, Let there be light:

    John 1:1 whereby Jesus is spoken of as "the Word",
    Because at John 1:18 it says: "No man has seen God at any time;

    John 1:9 That was the true Light, which lighteth every man that cometh into the world.
    John 1:10 He was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not.?
     
  3. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

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    1Jn 5:20 And we know that the Son of God is come, and hath given us an understanding, that we may know him that is true, and we are in him that is true, even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life.
    1Jn 5:21 Little children, keep yourselves from idols. Amen.
     
  4. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! 'Episkopos'
    Thank you for your comments.
    I'm especially appreciative of the fact that you, as the overseer of this Discussion Board, permit every sort of opinion regarding this subject matter to be freely discussed ... whether these might agree with your stated belief posture or not.
    It's a most fair, kind and courageously tolerant thing for you to be doing.
    Thank you!
     
  5. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 MTPockets, GINOLJC.

    I have been reading and re-reading you response, from last night. most, I'm aware of and some, I do agree with. but, I would like to address something, or bring it to the table, because most Christians bring this up again, and again. this triune existence of God.

    What visible image do we have regarding the so-called-trinity? What can we use as a parable to express the triune existence of God?Since our whole existence points to the existence of our Creator, it should surprise no one that we we can use the composite of man as the parable. After all, every man is also a composite which also enjoys a 'trinity'; a triune existence. Namely, a body, soul and (human) spirit. After all, man is said to have been created in the "image and likeness" of God,

    the question I have is this. if man is triune in existence, as you said, body, soul and (human) spirit. which is true in the natural world. but God/ the Holy Spirit did not have a BODY per say when he created everything. he existed before he brought forth his BODY that he made in Mary. I don't buy the parable, I know this was fore ordained , (see 1 Peter 1:20). but understand this, the ETERNAL, IMMORTAL, Spirit exist before the coming of his flesh. so God was not triune. NOT SAYING IT'S NOT TRUE. but I don't see the analogy. I base this on these scriptures, Isaiah 43:11 "I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour". this is pretty much straight forward. but I must asks, who was this born, scripture, Luke 2:11 "For unto you is born this day in the city of David a Saviour, which is Christ the Lord". Knowing that there is only ONE God, and none beside him, and NO OTHER SAVIOUR. so who is this saviour who is born?.

    then we can move onto his body he have now.

    Love and Peace
    101G
     
  6. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! '101G'
    I first need to apologize to you for my failing to respond to your earlier lengthy Post adjacent to this Thread. Mid-morning yesterday/Tuesday, I was about three-quarters through creating reply to you Online here when suddenly my Chrome Browser died and I lost all that I had typed. At that point, I couldn't continue because I had other pressing commitments.
    Let's begin fresh again with your above quoted comments:
    You wrote, "But God/ the Holy Spirit did not have a BODY per say when he created everything".
    Does God possess a personality?
    Of course He does.
    Because God contains every imaginable emotion and intelligence within Him ... within the intensity of His being ... we know Him as having a personality.
    So, we should be confident in saying that God has an inner-most being from which emanates His fathomless personality.
    Another question: does God have the ability to speak, see, hear and move in the invisible world?
    The scriptures repeatedly state instances where God possesses all the attributes and functions as if having a body. God is said to see, speak and hear throughout the scriptures.
    This must also mean that God possesses a form/shape of an immaterial body which enable these abilities and functions.
    Do angels see and hear and move in the spiritual world? Of course they do. Therefore, we can confidently say that the angels too must have a form/shave of an immaterial body.
    Do human beings have a body?
    Obviously, they do.
    But here's a far more interesting question:
    If your physical body was shredded into tiny morsels and viewed these under a microscope, would your personality (your being and identity) become visible under the lens?
    No, of course not.
    So, this must mean that what makes a human being uniquely human is not to be discovered by the outward appearance / flesh.
    It must mean the the personality of every human is invisibly "hidden" within his physical body.

    Would you agree with this above?
    After your reply, we can further discuss the spiritual body of God and the Holy Spirit.
     
  7. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 MTPockets, GINOLJC

    sorry about your browser dying. but I'm glad to see it resurrected, (smile).

    You wrote, "But God/ the Holy Spirit did not have a BODY per say when he created everything".
    Does God possess a personality? Of course He does.


    The scriptures repeatedly state instances where God possesses all the attributes and functions as if having a body. God is said to see, speak and hear throughout the scriptures This must also mean that God possesses a form/shape of an immaterial body which enable these abilities and functions

    Would you agree with this above?

    Sorry, but I would have to disagree.

    you said, "The scriptures repeatedly state instances where God possesses all the attributes and functions as if having a body".
    anthropomorphism: the attribution of human form or behavior given to a deity.
    The Spirit/God is Spirit. IMMORTAL, and INVISIBLE. The Spirit/God Possesses Wisdom, knowledge, and understanding, which is immaterial . and from that wisdom he makes things, Materal, such as the earth, the heavens, the sun, and the moon, ect...........

    and you said, "God is said to see, speak and hear throughout the scriptures This must also mean that God possesses a form/shape of an immaterial body which enable these abilities and functions".

    The Holy Spirit/God is not a man like you and I. Listen to Jesus the Christ. John 5:37 "And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape". so MTPockets, no one have "heard" his voice, or "seen", his shape, at anytime. this is prior to the messiah arrival. supportive scripture, Hebrews 1:1 "God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets, 2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds". so what was in the prophet for them to speak, "the Spirit", supportive scripture, 1 Peter 1:11 "Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. in the Prophets of old and the Christ".

    the Prophet Jeremiah said it best chapter 23 verses 23 & 24. "Am I a God at hand, saith the LORD, and not a God afar off? 24 Can any hide himself in secret places that I shall not see him? saith the LORD. Do not I fill heaven and earth? saith the LORD". so the Spirit fills, both Heaven and Earth. where do he sit?, is there a chair made, that is big enough to hold him, NO. nor any man made temple, by earthly hands either. Acts 17:28 "For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring. 29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. the Spirit is not PHYSICAL. and if we're his offspring then we're spirits. and to dwell on this earth our bodies are objects to references the spirits by.

    to understand this Pockets, a human body is only solidified light, a "shadow". that which we perceive with the senses is not the true nature. the Spirit dwells in Light. our bodies is only a object point in references, as I had said this was touch on by another person reply, "the Intrinsic Spatial". Yes the Spirit can take any shape he desire, but what we perceive as shapes, such as our bodies is a deception. we do not see with our eyes, NO. we see, or what we call sight is by our brains, which is electrical. not bases on light waves, or particles. so our senses is a deception to what is real, or what we call real. this world is a created world, this is not the real world. and if what we senses are a deception, so are our bodies.
    to fully understand this, and the real meaning behind matter as we know it. view this you tube film. it will help you to understand what I'm talking about.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vnvM_YAwX4I
     
  8. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Has anyone considered Rev.3:21? " To him who overcomes I will grant to sit with Me on My throne as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne." To those who insist that the Godhead is one person, I would suggest you simply take the word for what it says and not over think it. Look at the comparison in this verse. As well...Whom is the head of whom? The husband the head of the wife, Jesus the head of the church, God (the Father) the head of the Son. If the latter is just one person, then how is it that the comparison makes any sense, let alone, Rev.3:21?
     
  9. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 williemac, greeting

    this is my whole point. notice the word "in", sit with me in my throne. one must STOP thinking carnal. and two, not sit in "THEIR" throne, but "HIS", singular ONE.
    scripture, 2 Corinthians 5:17 "Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new".
    "IN". Ephesians 2:6 "And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" that's not a location. as in an ESTATE, as most miss the point about angels fallen from heaven. NO, it's an estate, or a state of "MIND". as the apostle Paul states, Romans 12:2 "And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God". an estate, is a condition of the mind. be it in a fallen state. not of God/Spirit. an Earthly, or carnal consciousness, meaning of self.

    we must be Spiritual on these matters.
     
  10. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! '101G'
    I'm not with the profane thought that God is not absolutely invisible and immaterial. After all, God is spirit. God does not possess a body in the sense of what we humans know as a body.
    I'm simply saying that the Scriptures repeatedly speak about God functioning as having the shape and/or form of a body.
    For example: the Bible speaks about the 'mouth of God'. A mouth is obviously an attribute of a body.
    The same applies to angels. These too are said to function with attributes belonging to a body.
    Think about Jesus. Hasn't He repeatedly appeared on upon the earth in the shape/form of a body?
    Is the eternal existence of Jesus different than the existence of God? No, it isn't.
    I'm not saying that God possesses a body as humans know a body.
    Rather, I'm saying that God, Jesus and the angels function as having attributes belonging to the shape/form of a body.
    Of course it's absolutely true that God is an invisible immaterial being.
    Also Jesus too remains as invisible and immaterial. However, Jesus has also chosen to visibly manifest Himself within this material dimension.

    Regarding your additional comments saying, "a human body is only solidified light, a "shadow" .... ", I'm not at all familiar with this particular thought-world as you expressed and therefore have no response to offer about it.

    I'm a nuts-an'-bolts kinna' person. Quite frankly, I've grown weary of the mindless ideologists and the mumbling parrots who have repeatedly lent me twelve baskets full of every sort of contradiction and inconsistent teaching concerning the 'Trinity'.
    I'm simply trying to properly comprehend the Trinity. It's not as if I'm needing to comprehend the origins and substance of the Godhead for goodness sake ... which I suspect would most certainly remain incomprehensible to our finite minds/imagination anyways.
    No, '101G', I'm merely trying to comprehend the so-called-three-persons of the Godhead; how these function and manifest themselves.
     
  11. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 MTPockets, GINOLJC

    I'm merely trying to comprehend the so-called-three-persons of the Godhead; how these function and manifest themselves.

    lets take this one step at a time, There is only One person in the Godhead. you have the thoughts that there are three person. but think about this, if you say Father, and Holy Spirit. think that two, right. but understand, as you say you're a nuts and bolts person. by legal definition, the one who conceives a child is technically the Father, Right. well now, that leaves two instead of three. for the title "Father", is the Holy Spirit. supportive scripture. Luke 1:35 "And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God". now from SCRIPTURE, and technical understanding, there are only two person now. so the three person is not there.
    this prove without a doubt that there is no trinity.
    that's the nuts and bolts. understand this?. if so, we will move on to the title "Son" and "Father".
     
  12. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi '101G'
    Ummm, you wrote: "There is only One person in the Godhead. you have the thoughts that there are three person".
    I need to immediately clarify this with you:
    The languages of men have severe limitations and disadvantages. There isn't always a ready vocabulary to express the things which are invisible. Therefore, we are always having to wrestle with words and phrases to appropriately explain and describe the world of the spirits, (aka: kingdom of heaven).

    I absolutely do not perceive God as being 'three persons'. Our God is singularly ONE. He is neither multiple persons nor as having multiple personalities.
    Our God does not have multiple faces; neither multiple personalities. He is not a schizophrenic God. He is ONE. Not three persons ... not even three persons acting as one as so many of our fellow-Christians are frantic to parrot to us.
    God is one person possessing a singular personality.

    I've become increasingly weary of those who insist that I must mindlessly repeat the ancestral trinity formula which has been offered by their centuries old religious suspects. I refuse to subscribe to an unscriptural thought-world which dictates that the Holy Spirit, along with the Son and Father are co-equal, or One God in Three Persons, sharing a single Divine essence or being; one God, revealed in three persons.

    The ancestral parrots we are hearing today are all having to admit that the word 'trinity' is not found anywhere in the Bible.
    When it comes to the doctrine of the Trinity, hardly anyone seems to have an issue with the fact that the origin of the doctrine was derived from the musings of pious Catholic monks and an egotistical King Constantine who were frantically consumed about concealing their spiritual emptiness.

    That being said, the ideas behind the so-called 'trinity' doctrine are clearly an invention of the human mind; the result of religious conclaves which occurred nearly three centuries after the resurrection of Jesus. It all goes to show that this popular saying remains very true in our day: a lie gets around the world twice before truth gets it's boots on.

    We have a living God Who continues to speak above the ravenous noise and nuisance of our religious heritage and traditions which "beguile you with enticing words".
    In this day, many Christians are beginning to know more about the mystery of God which remained hidden from those who invented the trinity doctrines from behind the veiled darkness of 325AD.
    Most assuredly it now can be half-seriously said, "Amen! Amen! I say unto you: Many are taught, but few are learning!"
    And, so it is that today I comfortably recall the verse: "At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes".

    In addition, there seems to be significant confusion among Christians concerning the origin of Jesus. Even the moreso concerning the purpose of His ministry; both during His earthly life and also during His present-day resurrected life.
    Some even mistakenly claim that Jesus pre-existed (before eternity began) as a 'person' in the invisible world along side God Himself. This error is made all the more grievous with those wrongly claiming that the 'Word' is the 'person' of Jesus.

    There are only three designations which can be biblically said about man: slave, child and son. The term "son" only applies to a human being; never is it attached to the being of God Himself.

    There was from eternity the Word of God. It resided as a hidden thought within God. In the fullness of time, this Word became spoken; the consequence of which created the representative of the 'last man'.
    The apostle John said: "The Word (God's thoughts and promises hidden within Himself from the beginning) became flesh (were revealed and appeared in or as a man) among us, and we have seen the glory thereof, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth".
    The first man (Adam) was a 'living being'.
    The 'last' man on the earth (Son / Sons of God) is a 'life-giving spirit'.

    The Word of God occupies a central position throughout the Scriptures. The Word is the creative mind of God; just like the "Wisdom" is related to the same. The Greek word for "word" is Logos. This word has many, however, closely inter-related meanings, such as speech, calculation, norm, reason, mind, word, which all have to do with the creative power of God. Both the 'Word' and 'Wisdom' are presented as independent personalities. Even the Spirit of God is occasionally said to be the Spirit of Jesus.

    Nevertheless, our Bibles do not say that the Word was Jesus. It merely states that the Word was always in and with God and remained consistently as one whole with Him. This Word remained as thought (in an embryonic state) in and with God from eternity past.
    The Word of God contained all of God's eternal plans and intents. God never wavered nor hesitated from His Word.. From this Word which remained hidden in the inner-most depths of God was to come the true Man.

    Most all those who erroneously claim that Jesus owned a pre-existence quote these particular verses: "O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was". And verse 24, "Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world", (John 17:4,5 John 17:24). Also, 1Pet 1:20: "Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you".

    Who is Jesus?
    Jesus was simply a man as any other man.
    The exception being that He was conceived by the Word of God.
    What is meant by that?
    The thoughts and intents of God are expressed/spoken by His word(s) which become a creative force. The immense/incalculable power behind His Word impregnated Mary and this conceived Jesus.
    In a sense, human beings too have what is known as a 'creative tongue' but this is presently manifested to a much lower degree. Our words too are a creative force which, for instance, can build or destroy, unify or divide and, similar to God Himself, bring into existence those things which are not.
    When the Bible seems to imply that Jesus was existent before the foundations of the world, it means to say that Jesus existed in the heart of God from the very beginnings. The man Jesus existed as the Word (intent/purpose) of God from eternity past and this became manifested (visible) on the earth through the immense creative power inherent in His Word. God's intents and purposes were spoken and this eternal Word of God penetrated the visible world which such an incredible creative force that they surpassed all the earthly restraints and conceived what was intended.

    Jesus glorified the Father, when He was on earth. He brought the work that the Father had commanded Him to it's desired consummation. Obviously, Jesus knew whereof he spoke when He in His prayer to the Father spoke about "the glory which I had with thee before the world was". Jesus knew these things because he knew the heart of His Father through and through!
    He was himself the first man who responded to this eternal purpose of the Father. All of us born-again Christians are also invited to respond towards the same purposes and intents of God for our own lives.

    The supposed pre-existence of Jesus can only be correctly perceived as having dwelled as 'Word' in the mind and heart of God from eternity past. The person of Jesus did not have a prior existence outside of the Word (thoughts) of God until the Word was spoken and behaved as 'seed' in Mary. Until the events, "In the sixth month, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth", Jesus existed only in the fathomless heart of God. Jesus (as a Son of God) formed a portion of the Word ('logos') which resided within the deepest depths of God's heart and being.
    In the fullness of time, this embyronic Word ('logos') was first revealed in/as flesh at Bethlehem and now continues being revealed in countless "new creatures" (known as the Sons of God of the New Creation) since that splendid day at Bethlehem.

    We need to be reminded that God's eternal plan and purpose seeks to have Him become "everything to everyone".
    At the very beginning, it is said that God said that it was not good that man Adam) should be alone. This is a reflection of the inner desire of God about Himself. God's revelation from the very start is that He is only Spirit and that He has an intense yearning for a "body" to dwell. Therein lies the essential reason for the creation of man. Just as Adam said of Eve, "This is now bone of my bones and flesh of my flesh", God is longing to say of His wife, "These are now spirit of my spirit".

    As such, God's yearning intent is to enter into a profound unity with his sons and daughters. God desires to marry His New Creation ... the two becoming one spirit, soul and body with Him.
    This is precisely the unity that the Heavenly Father enjoyed with His first Son, Jesus. The two are one in 'spirit'. They share the identical purposes and intents. (Similar to a man and wife behaving as one in the flesh)

    Yes, it can be truthfully stated that Jesus was and is equal with God; meaning that Jesus was the total fulfillment of the spirit of the Father. Jesus knew the intents and essence of His Father through and through.

    At the beginning of His ministry on earth, Jesus is baptized in Holy Spirit by God; anointed by the Spirit of God to be the Christ. A connection of hearts comes into being between God and Jesus. The Son puts on the strength of the Father. He is being prepared and trained to function as Christ and Lord and begins to realize the plan of God with man in that position and capacity. However, there remained certain limitations during Jesus' life on earth. For instance, when Jesus preaches on the shore of the lake of Galilee, He cannot be in Jerusalem at the same time. Jesus reaches many people, sometimes thousands of men, women and children at once, however even for Him it is impossible to accomplish the work of God in all people over the entire earth.

    With His ascension, the Father covers the Son in such a manner with the Spirit of God that Jesus can work with it like Yahweh Himself. With this, Jesus attains the shape/attributes of God; He may, as glorified man appear in the spiritual body of God and reveal Himself by this Holy Spirit. That which was previously not possible for Jesus, now becomes possible to the glorified and crowned Jesus. Being in the Spirit of God, He can now uphold all things by the word of His power, (Heb 1:3). Only in and by the Spirit of God is it possible for Him to be the head of the church, to live in the hearts of people and to complete the work of God in their lives. By the Spirit of the Lord, Jesus can now be omnipresent and accomplish His divine work in the hearts of all people. He can now, just like God, encompass the heaven and the earth. He is actually capable of ( in preparation of the fullness of times) gather all things that exists in heaven and on earth under one head: Christ (Eph 1:10). In this regard Jesus says: "However, when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come. He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it to you. All things that the Father has are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it to you", (John 16:13-15).

    Therefore, it is not surprising that the Spirit of God is sometimes also called 'the Spirit of Jesus' or 'the Spirit of Christ' in the New Testament, (Acts 16:7, Rom.8:9, 1Pe.1:11). These names do not indicate Jesus' own spiritual body, but the person that is presently working with God's Spirit: Jesus Christ. While the anointing to the Christ connected Jesus as Son to the heart of the Father, the exaltation as Christ brought Him to the level of the Father. Even though Jesus is clothed with this Spirit, He does not see this Spirit as His own and this explains why Jesus spoke several times of the Comforter and the Spirit of truth in the third person. He realizes the enormous wealth and possibilities that God has given in His hands and remains aware of the dependence on the Father that comes with it.

    At the acension of Jesus, God begins to live in Jesus in a most exalted way. In the Kingdom of God a new situation comes into existence with limitless possibilities for the glorified Jesus in the continuing execution of God's plan. Here we are reminded of 2Cor 3:18, "Now the Lord [Jesus] is that Spirit". Jesus is a glorified man in the Spirit and figure of God. After His being, Jesus remains completely human. He is the true man of God, the Son of man in His glory and power, prepared with all godly possibilities. Therefore, while it's improper to speak about the 'divinity' of Jesus, it is most proper and deserving to speak about the fullness of the Godhead in Jesus, (Col 2:9).

    This exaltation of Jesus is completely after God's will; for it pleased the Father that in Him should all fullness dwell, (Col 1:19). This is the present reality in the Kingdom of God: all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily in Jesus, (Col 2:9) and in Him all the wealth of God's being has a living form.

    In this same way, God longs for a humanity which functions as one great, harmonious and majestic body; a church which functions as 'partner of God' for all eternity and which lives with Him as 'God's wife'.

    I mentioned earlier in this Thread that the human being is characterized by a body. I also mentioned that God created man as very similar to His own being. This not only applies for the natural body of man, but also for man's spiritual body.
    As always is the case, the visible is connected to the invisible and is an image of it. Because man is created in the image of God, man is similar to God. Because God is a person with a spiritual body, man also has a spiritual body. Because God has a spiritual heart, man also has one. Man can speak, see, hear (in both the visible and invisible worlds) because God can also do this.

    God is a spirit; a person/personality with a spiritual body by which He speaks, works, manifests and reveals Himself. So, just as the spiritual body of a man consists of his soul and spirit, the being of God, (the heart of God/God Himself), is covered in His Spirit, in the Spirit of God. The Holy Spirit is the body of God in which the heart of God is hidden. In the same manner is the heart, the soul of man hidden in his spiritual body.

    Now, concerning the Holy Spirit: we know that God is only Spirit.
    The Holy Spirit is not a person. Neither is the Holy Spirit a distinct and/or individual personality.
    One could perhaps use the admittedly feeble image/parable of a jelly-fish to visualize the form of God.
    Nonetheless, the being of God can be imagined as somewhat similar to that of the jelly-fish or other such gelatinous animals which are united/formed by having bodies lacking hard skeletal components.
    Unlike a 'normal' fish, which retains its form when out of water, a jelly-fish requires the support provided by the aqueous environment.
    Many species of Jelly-fish are transparent and this might lend some much needed reinforcement to the parable.

    Using this image/parable of the Jelly Fish, we could say that the 'outer layer' is what we could name as the Holy Spirit ... namely, the immaterial/spiritual body of God. And, the inner layer is what we know as His being/personality.
    In other words, the being of a spirit is covered in and surrounded by spirit.

    It demands countless numbers of people to turn the thoughts of God into reality: God everything to everyone, or the formation of a spiritual temple of God in the spiritual world.

    We know that God breathed the spirit of life into Adam. This spirit was similar to the Spirit of the Creator. God did not say: "Let us make one man in our image and after our likeness", but rather spoke in plural sense: 'them' The human spirit, is unable to attain full development in one person. This spirit is rich and varied to the extent that it requires countless creatures to manifest the riches of the human spirit. Adam may have been a gifted man, but he could not possibly have beheld or been a genius in everything that the human spirit contains and is capable of producing: music, technology, science, art, and not in the least place: the spiritual world. This is why God said: "Be fruitful and multiply."
    Just as it requires billions of human beings to manifest the fullness of the human spirit, in the New Creation, the Last/Second Adam received the Holy Spirit besides His own human spirit and once again the re-Creator said: "Be fruitful and multiply."

    So, it is that we marvel at how great must be the final number of humankind at the time and place when God will be everything to/in every one; meaning to say: that God will be able to fully express Himself in humanity.
    Not a wonder that the Bible says that the entire creation is groaning to see the wonderfully splendid fullness of God revealed on the earth.

    So it is too that the entirety of the Bible narrative can be summed up with this single observation: the entire New Creation is intended to be the body of God who is spirit.
     
  13. williemac

    williemac New Member

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    Thank yo for your reply. But I must say I am not noticing the word "in" . The quote I gave from the NKJ said "on", not "in". But that is irrelevant anyway. I raised the passage (Rev.3:21) because in it we have Jesus talking about the fact that He sat down with His Father on (or in) His Father's throne. How do you not see one person talking about sitting with another person? How is it that you prefer that one person sat down with Himself even though if that is the case, then He is calling Himself His own Father? He said "My Father" . And this is not another person? This is simply Himself? When did He ever indicate that He was in relationship with Himself?
    In John 20:21, Jesus told His disciples..." as the Father has sent Me, so I also send you" There again, He talks of another who has sent Him. How do you not acknowledge this? Do you suppose you have some special insight that is revealed in scripture? Or is it that you have been taught to deny the trinity at all costs, even at the expense of what is plainly revealed? It is nothing more than a cop out to merely write off the plain language in scripture by stating that you are being "spiritual" which more than implies that others are not. LA DE DA, my friend....la de da! <_<
     
  14. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    For the past few years, I've been basically alone trying to more fully understand this 'trinity' issue. Ummm, I've never set foot in a Oneness church ... nor have I personally met anyone who claims to be a 'non-trinitarian' believer. I even had to look up Wikipedia today to discover what another Post I read in here was meaning by the term 'modalism'.

    However, from the very beginnings of my Christian journey (some 40 years back), the ideas about the trinity greatly pestered me. I was getting increasingly tired of parroting the teachings which I had heard and read about it. I very much needed to comprehend it for myself personally.
    What astonished me most was the discovery about the origins of the doctrine itself.
    The doctrine of the trinity was first promoted under the influence of 13 so-called-canonized-saints known as the Cappadocian Fathers.
    If that doesn't cause your inner-man to shiver, nothing will.

    The doctrine became further developed during the First Council of Nicea in the year 325AD. At the time, the Emperor St. Constantine the Great was desiring unity in the Roman Empire and compelled the Church's bishops together to settle some raging heresies which were evidently threatening his rule. In his opening address, St. Constantine described disputes within the Church as, "more dangerous than war and other conflicts; they bring me more grief than anything else".
    Nevertheless, some in here will be greatly relieved to learn that Pope St. Sylvester I of Rome was represented by two of his priests at this gathering.
    Shiver an' shudder again.

    And if you thought that the doctrine of the trinity was unfolded by innocent holy hands, you should also know about the notorious cruelty of Emperor Constantine: he executed his own wife and eldest son in the year following his establishment of the Council. All the historical evidence clearly shows Constantine as a scheming secularist politician who manipulated all parties in a quest to secure his own power.
    I suspect that that we should all be gritting our teeth the next occasion of having to recite the Nicene Creed.

    So here we are, the year is 2013.
    1,688 years ago, some murky Catholic monks known as the 'Cappadocian Fathers' dragged their ideas about the Trinity into the Christian church.
    If I'm to believe the Christian ideologists of today, there are only two instances throughout Church history when Jesus spoke to His followers: once at Pentecost and the other time at the Council of Nicea.
    Evidently, Jesus hasn't spoken to His followers since.
    And, even if Jesus were to genuinely speak to His Church at this very hour, He had better conform his thoughts about Himself and His heavenly Father to the conclusions declared at the Council of Nicea.
    So, there we have it: The Council of Nicea has silenced what God might have been wanting to tell His people about Himself for the past 1,688 years.
    For the past 1,688 years, the ancestral parrots have declared their mindless verdict: "You're either with us or with the heretics!"
    What a tragic quagmire this Church of Jesus has become!
     
  15. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    2 williemac, GINOLJC
    Thank yo for your reply. But I must say I am not noticing the word "in" . The quote I gave from the NKJ said "on", not "in".

    No, may I thank you,
    that's what the new translation will do for you. question are you sitting "with" the Lord Jesus on "his" throne, or, are you seated "in" HIM on "his" throne?. which is it. to me the original KJV got it right. we are "in" him not "on" him. what do the NKJV say in Eph 2:6 is it ,"on", or "in". Christ Jesus?, or 1:3. Colossians 3:17 "And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him".

    and two,
    How is it that you prefer that one person sat down with Himself even though if that is the case, then He is calling Himself His own Father? He said "My Father" . And this is not another person? This is simply Himself? When did He ever indicate that He was in relationship with Himself?

    listen carefully, Revelation 3:12 "Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name".

    and you said, Do you suppose you have some special insight that is revealed in scripture? Or is it that you have been taught to deny the trinity at all costs, even at the expense of what is plainly revealed? It is nothing more than a cop out to merely write off the plain language in scripture by stating that you are being "spiritual" which more than implies that others are not. LA DE DA, my friend....la de da! <_<

    now in the scripture above, Rev. 3:12 it sound like Jesus is saying that he have a God, by using these words, and I will write upon him the name of my God. it seems like Jesus is saying he have a God, correct. well lets slow this fast ball down bit, and see what just went over your spiritual head.
    our Lord Jesus said that he will write "the name of my God on your head", right, and he gave us the name, "JESUS". how do I know this?. because he said it in the very same verse. listen, "and I will write upon him my new name". I, I, I, will write. I is singular, and "my" is a pronoun, a Possessive determiner. who is God here?. that's right Jesus. "my" is a Possessive determiner, "FIRST PERSON SINGULAR" you didn't see that, did you. NO, if you did, you would have not made a statement like this, "Do you suppose you have some special insight that is revealed in scripture? Or is it that you have been taught to deny the trinity at all costs, even at the expense of what is plainly revealed? ". that was plainly revealed, but did you see it?. NO. as you said Oh well, lets move on. because my contention is not with flesh and blood williemac, but with ignorance. the Lord Jesus gave me a motto that I keep in my heart, "Where there is knowledge, stay not ignorant". when you made the statement, "Or is it that you have been taught to deny the trinity at all costs, even at the expense of what is plainly revealed?". let me tell you some about me, that you have no clue about. I taught the trinity doctrine for years, and was good at teaching it. but I had my Damascus road experience just as the apostle Paul did. but mine was a bit difference. instead instead of being knock off my beast that I was riding. the Lord Jesus gracefully allowed me to get off my beast. even I knew, "eventually", that what I was teaching wasn't adding up to the truth. I'm one who search diligently, and the Lord let me find my own self out. it's ashame when you find yourself naked. naked, meaning void of the truth. oh yes, I thought I was clothed in righteousness, walking up the Kings Highway. it's bad when you find your own self in a lie. even worst if someone else catches you in it. so I asked the lord himself to teach me. and what he taught me was shocking to the current beliefs I held, (taught by man). so I had to "RENEW MY MIND". and now the revelation is clear, all things fit, no contradictions. perfectness of mind. do I know it all, NO. and again NO.
    so I'm not upset, nor take offense of your comments. as the apostle Paul, as well as myself, we know that you're in ignorance . YES, you have a zeal for the Lord, but without knowledge. these are the things that they who know must bare with. we must bare one another until the truth comes in.

    so be blessed
    Love and peace
    101G.


    MTPockets, GINOLJC.

    I've never set foot in a Oneness church. me neither.

    The doctrine became further developed during the First Council of Nicea in the year 325AD. At the time, the Emperor St. Constantine the Great was desiring unity in the Roman Empire and compelled the Church's bishops together to settle some raging heresies which were evidently threatening his rule. In his opening address, St. Constantine described disputes within the Church as, "more dangerous than war and other conflicts; they bring me more grief than anything else".
    Some in here will be greatly relieved to learn that Pope St. Sylvester I of Rome was represented by two of his priests at this gathering.
    Shiver an' shivering again.

    And if you thought that the doctrine of the trinity was unfolded by innocent holy hands, you should also know about the notorious cruelty of Emperor Constantine: he executed his own wife and eldest son in the year following his establishment of the Council. All the historical evidence clearly shows Constantine as a scheming secularist politician who manipulated all parties in a quest to secure his own power.
    I suspect that that we should all be gritting our teeth the next occasion of having to recite the Nicene Creed.


    Please understand me from this point of view. there is nothing wrong with knowing history, I champion it ok. but to me knowing, and or finding out my Lord and Saviour did for me, is paramount to his SALVATION that he has offered to me. what Constantine, and the Council of Nicea did, fine, it have no bearing on my present faith. just as what happen in slavery here America, NO bearing to my freedom now. "today", is what count. if one will hear his voice ", TODAY". as the apostle said,
    Philippians 3:13 "Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before, 14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus".

    so I press to know my Lord and Saviour, Jesus the Christ, and I let no man or thing hinder me.

    Love and Peace
    101G
     
  16. MTPockets

    MTPockets New Member

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    Hi! '101G'
    I added some hurried history about the origin of the trinity doctrines to perhaps enlighten those in here who might have not given the matter a second glance. Of course, you are correct in saying that a narrative of religious history is not a suitable replacement for "study to show yourself approved".
    Because I don't have a desire to live the spiritual lives of others vicariously, I care very little if people might agree with my views about the trinity or not. I'm simply sharing my opinions ... not dictating them to anyone.
    I'm always hopeful that someone might choose to add something valuable to a Thread; a treasure from their own thoughts and experience which will assist me to obtain a clearer understanding concerning the Scriptures. That's the only reason why I continue to participate here.
    I don't contend that my thoughts and opinions are somehow infallible. Quite simply, they are what they are.
     
  17. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    MTPockets, greeting

    true.
    this is a discussion board, not a dictate. ask, and answer. Christians should "EDIFY" one another. there is information here in someone that I need in order to help me understand better. which have already happen. while participating in another topic discussion, it open a revealing door on another discussion. this is what the scripture states, "forsake not the assembly of the saints". and I take it, we're all SAINTS. and on this topic if we set aside our own beliefs for a second we all might learn something. enough said there.

    MTPockets, if you are serious about understanding the Godhead, I'll discuss the topic with you, in the guidance of the Holy Spirit. scripture by scripture.
    my view on the Godhead is totally different from the trinity view, the oneness view, the unitarian view and the Jehovah witness view.
    if you wish to share your point of view, I'm more than willing to listen. I have read your opening post. basically I agree with, to a point.

    so, if you will list your scriptures that point to or not to a trinity,or is not certain about, we can reason together, and there we will began. the reason why I said scriptures, doctrine are made from scripture, and there are many doctrine out there. but there is a need for clear understand of the truth in scripture. anyone can counter a scripture. but not the whole of scriptures. for the lie will be expose, sooner or later.

    Love and peace
    101G.
     
  18. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    all the heresies that involve God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are rooted in a rejection of the Trinity. If you accept the true doctrine of the Trinity, you would not be able to hold onto the false belief of Jesus starting out as a man and then becoming God, for example. You could not embrace the false doctrine of 'Oneness' either. Gnostic dualism also flies out the window because their is no god of the old testament AND a god of the new testament according to the doctrine of the Trinity. I believe all heresy begins in a rejection of this true understanding of the nature of God as a Trinity.
     
    justaname likes this.
  19. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    to aspen2, greeting

    all the heresies that involve God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are rooted in a rejection of the Trinity. If you accept the true doctrine of the Trinity, you would not be able to hold onto the false belief of Jesus starting out as a man and then becoming God, for example. You could not embrace the false doctrine of 'Oneness' either. Gnostic dualism also flies out the window because their is no god of the old testament AND a god of the new testament according to the doctrine of the Trinity. I believe all heresy begins in a rejection of this true understanding of the nature of God as a Trinity.

    only one answer, and it lay in the word, "Diversity". the Diversity of the Holy Spirit.
     
  20. aspen

    aspen “"The harvest is plentiful but the workers are few

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    Sorry I do not understand your post.
     
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