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True sin problem

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Slython, Sep 12, 2006.

  1. Slython

    Slython New Member

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    Hi Swampfox; Thanks for the welcome. This is an excellent site. I read your true sin article and have a few questions(and no, I'm not trying to be sarcastic). It is very interesting but a few problems. If the fruit offered to Eve is sex with the devil, then what happened when Eve gave some fruit to Adam and he ate? Did he join a threesome? Can angels or fallen angels actually procreate? If the tree at the center of the garden is Jesus, didn't Jesus, as God, already walk with them? Also you claim that the line of Cain, known as Kenites, were there at the crucifixion. How can this be when the line of Cain was wiped out at the flood?Thanks for the help.
     
  2. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    No problem, we're always glad to have a new face! [​IMG]
    If the fruit offered to Eve is sex with the devil, then what happened when Eve gave some fruit to Adam and he ate? Did he join a threesome?
    I left that section open-ended for a reason. I think one can certainly speculate that such a despicable act went on. Sexual perversion has been around for quite a long time and is named in the Bible in several occasions under this and other names. I'm not too much up for going into the specifics of what went on, but from what the Bible says about it I would say that's a strong possibility.
    Can angels or fallen angels actually procreate?
    Yes, they can and we can document that.Genesis 6 documents this well.Genesis 6:2That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose.Genesis 6:4There were giants in the earth in those days; and also after that, when the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men, and they bare children to them, the same became mighty men which were of old, men of renown.You can read on down, but it shows that Noah was a man and, that in this case, as in other cases in the Bible, "sons of God" is a term for angels. If you want examples of other humanly action by angels, see Genesis 18 where 3 angels - one of them the "Angel of the Lord" himself come upon Abraham and he prepares them a human meal.
    If the tree at the center of the garden is Jesus, didn't Jesus, as God, already walk with them?
    Well, in a way, yes. Jesus was there, but Adam and Eve never saw him as it states otherwise they would live forever and it was not yet time for Christ to come. Instead, you have God (Hebrew Elohim) that walks in the garden and Adam and Eve interact with.
    Also you claim that the line of Cain, known as Kenites, were there at the crucifixion. How can this be when the line of Cain was wiped out at the flood?
    I don't claim it; the Bible says it. A lot of people try and infer from some various verses that Cain's line was wiped out in the flood. The Hebrew for Kenite is unmistakable; this isn't some named bestowed upon a small group of people; otherwise why was it not used more and for a more dangerous group?Remember:Genesis 6:19And of every living thing of all FLESH, two of every sort shalt thou bring into the ark, to keep them alive with thee; they shall be male and female.Pinch your arm, that's flesh. The 8 souls that survived were the souls that matter - of the Adamic line and of the line that would ultimately lead to Christ. I'm going to do a Bible study in the future on the flood, so stay tuned to that because it will explain things much better.
     
  3. Slython

    Slython New Member

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    A lot of Christians are going to consider your theories as heresy. They are interesting none the less. When Adam and Eve sinned, what specifically changed about them?
     
  4. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    To be quite blunt, those Christians aren't doing the judgement. God is the judge and I simply don't care what others think or say of me. If one wants to lable God's Word hersey; take it up with God. I have been blessed with CB and the ability to do what I do. One can say that evil can prosper in this world; and it certainly can to an extent, but I make no apologies for what I believe because He is in control. I'm confident enough to teach it and confident enough to accept the responsibilities for doing so. The Bible is clear on it; judgement comes right to the Levites first. The Levites are both the priests and teachers of God's Word. They lead the flock.Getting to your question:
    When Adam and Eve sinned, what specifically changed about them?
    Genesis 3:8-11And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the LORD God amongst the trees of the garden.And the LORD God called unto Adam, and said unto him, Where art thou?And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.And he said, Who told thee that thou wast naked? Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?What changed was the fact that they knew both good and evil. Going back to Genesis 2:Genesis 2:25And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.They knew what is was to rebel from God and commit a sin. This knowledge was not contained within some fruit and this really paints an absurb image if you think about it. Satan had already rebelled and therefore he was the tree of the knowledge of good and evil because he already knew what it was to rebel from God.A lot of people want to say that this shifts the blame off of man (Adam & Eve) and this is simply not the case. Adam and Eve still committed the sin but this does acknowledge that Satan was at work then just as he is now. Sin came into this world through Adam and Eve but that old serpent was the catalyst.
     
  5. Slython

    Slython New Member

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    But it says in Genesis that the man has become like God, knowing both good and evil. God knows good and evil but He is not a sinner. Why are Adam and Satan sinners simply for knowing evil. There's got to be more to it then this. Paul says we are constantly at war between the flesh and the spirit. The flesh has many evil lusts that must be kept in control. I think before man sinned he had complete harmony between flesh and spirit. In fact the spirit must have had contol over the flesh but lost it in the sin. Now the flesh runs rampantly out of control. Just look at any inner city. When we open our selves to God's spirit(the Holy Spirit) our desires change and improve becoming more Godly, thus the fruits of the Spirit. People also speculate that man had 100% use of his brain which now has been reduced to 10% because of sin. Your take on Genesis is unique and fascinating. I will definitly be keeping up to date on your Bible studies. Oh, by the way, what are UFOs?cheers[​IMG]
     
  6. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    Why are Adam and Satan sinners simply for knowing evil. There's got to be more to it then this. Paul says we are constantly at war between the flesh and the spirit
    I heard this somewhere at sometime that sin can be defined as our will rather than His will. By virtue of the command of God when we as spirits housed within flesh go against the will of God then we commit sin. Paul demonstrated this simple truth when he stated the law was introduced to show us our sinfulness and the nature of the flesh. Romans 5:13 ...for before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law. The effect of the law is to move us towards grace, and the ultimate grace found in mercy through the blood of Christ. We are exceedingly sinful in the flesh by the grace of God have found mercy. We all know these truths, but I reiterate it to make a point to answer your question. It is true the fallen ones, or Nephilim- who by the way will be seen again during the tribulation- committed great sin by having intercourse with the daughters of men and by this sin introduced the giants. The scriptures are very clear regarding this and they are referenced many times if one looks for those citations. This interaction between the spirits and the flesh can also be seen in the conception of our Lord Jesus when Mary was impregnated by the Holy Spirit. If one thinks about it, when a man and woman procreate a new and unique spirit is born as well and that spirit resides in the flesh of the fetus and eventually a new spirit within flesh is born into the world. This is still a great mystery- that is the interaction between the spirit and the flesh of all, and of the spiritual and material world we as humans observe- but SwampFox's excellent observations can be buttressed by these points I now make.I have read SwampFox's writing that you refer to and sent it to others well versed in the doctrines we acknowledge as fundamentally true, and they all found it very interesting and worthy of consideration to be true.
    Oh, by the way, what are UFOs?
    UFO's are either of these two things. As it can be clearly proved, most of these sightings are around Air Force bases and we can conclude many of them are machine or craft tests. If they are true physically unnatural phenomena they are manifestations of spiritual creatures or machinations. Ezekiel observed such things. This is true of what people observe as paranormal or spiritual phenomena or those who practice the unexplainable disciplines of channeling or spiritual interactions. The spiritual realm is about us and is unseen and if these things or creatures or spirits are not the servants of God and work towards assisting us to the things we hold as true and witnessed within the testimony of our Lord Yeshus, then they are the servants of the Dragon. And those who practice or engage in these things don't draw us towards the Cross and what can be found in its truth, then they are caught by choice or ignorance in those things that will bring them damnation.
     
  7. Slython

    Slython New Member

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    Thanks servant of the end for your help.I have just read a UFO book "Alien Intervention" and I am fascinated by it. I have a few questions that have boggled me forever and hopefully you can help me with it. Here they go;What do you say when researchers say the following;The pillar of cloud and fire that led Isreal was a UFO.The firey chariot that picked up Elijah was a UFO.The wheel in a wheel that Ezekial saw was a UFO.The bright cloud that hovered over the holy of holies and Solomons temple was a UFO.The Marian Apparition at Fatima was a UFO - (If it wasn't then why the exact details of a UFO sightings?)Jesus ascended to a cloud that was a UFO.Many authors say that God is actually an ET posing as a religious diety. What do you think of this and why similarities in sightings and bible stories?Why do demons need UFOs? Do angels (as in Elijah's chariot) use UFOs?Is it possible that demons and angels actually use UFOs for their purposes?The Bayside NY Marian apparition warned of demons using UFOs(transports from hell)but the Marian apparition itself was a UFO sighting.This is very confusing. Oh, also in end times Isreal many UFO researchers claim UFOs are closely watching all of Isreal's military actions. More confusion to throw into the chaos!
     
  8. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I think servent said pretty much what I would say in responding to your previous post. God cannot be labeled a sinner because he himself (through what he says) is the law. The Bible is the text manifestation of his Word and Christ was the Word in the flesh. In regards to your last post, I think the answer to this falls under the question that we must all ask ourselves; why am I a Christian? The Bible itself warns repeatedly of false doctrines. I have a huge problem with the idea that other beings created us; it's very similar in nature to the concept of gods that we see in the ancient world; IMHO it is simply another manifestation of them. One thing I would like to point out about the above observations of various events as UFOs, if this were the case, why so many various descriptions such as "pillar," "wheel," the incredibly detailed description of Ezekiel, and so on. All bring about various shapes and so on. And my final answer is that the devil works on confusion and thrives in that environment. I am convinced from both my own Biblical and non-Biblical research that confusion is one of the greatest tools of the old enemy. We see this in his warping of God's Word and in the utter confusion of many facets of life such as false gods borrowed from other religions that bare uncanny resmblences to the elements of the Truth found in God's Word. I think this UFO phenomenon will play right into the end times. I think it's very possible that satan shows up as a Christ-like being who will say "all you world religions were close to the truth, but I am the truth" and many will find this very appealing. I think it not out of the realm of possibility that he may come back as a UFO figure, something of which what you read above outlines. This is where you simply must know scripture; if these things start coming true then that should be a sign for any Christian. My advice is to know Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 by heart and know as much else of the great books of prophecy as you can. Christ has told us "behold, I have told you all things" - not some, a few, or most - but all!
     
  9. Slython

    Slython New Member

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    Thanks for the input SwampFox. I also posted the UFO question on Bible Probe and the respondent quoted a Marian apparition. Do you believe in the Marian apparitions?Below are from Appearances of Our Lady at Bayside, New York (over 25 year period) about UFO's: DELUSION Veronica - Oh, there are two flying saucers now. They are going very, very high into the sky.... Be not afeared, for you are being allowed to see what satan plans to delude mankind with. There is no life as you know it, or human being, or otherwise, upon another planet. The creation of the Father has been given to you in the Book of love and life. Do not fantasize of life on other planets, My children. It is a falsehood. Were it not so you would have been told, for the Father hides nothing from His children. He created man, known Adam and Eve, and as such they were the first of your - of the Father's creation. You may say, your first mother and father symbol." - Our Lady, September 28, 1974 THE ELEMENTS "They are performing now prodigies and wonders to confuse and confound mankind. You call one of them the UFOs. They are supernatural manifestations from hell. They are created in the minds of some by the demons, who are capable, because of great power upon earth, to control now the elements, nature." - Our Lady, February 1, 1978 NO VEHICLES "While We speak of agents of hell, My child, I also wish that you make it known that there are no vehicles coming from other planets—extraterrestrial vehicles. No, My child and My children; they are agents of hell in transport. Now you may ask, why must they be transported if they are spirits? Ah, My child, this you may not understand. These are not ordinary spirits; these are the demons from hell: Satan's cohorts, and satan himself. He is also on one of the transports. "There is a reason they must use the transports. I will not go into it at this time, for I am sure it would befog the mind of any scientist should I give this knowledge to them before they are ready for it." - Our Lady, November 1, 1985 RAPTURE "I give you great grace of heart, My children, to know that many shall be taken from your earth before the great Chastisement.... Many of your news medias shall state that they have been carried off by flying saucers. Oh no, My children! They were carried off into a supernatural realm of the Eternal Father to await the return of My Son upon earth." - Our Lady, December 7, 1976 NOT A FIGMENT "In this final battle, there are many agents of hell loosed upon earth. They are traveling in transports. Do not be won over to a false theory of life beyond the heavens, other than the Kingdom of God. Know that it is satan who sends these vehicles before you. They are to confuse and confound you. These objects that take flight across your earth are from hell. They are only the false miracles of your times. "Recognize them, My children; they are not a figment of man's imagination. They are present in your atmosphere, and they will become more dominant as the fight goes on for the souls." - Our Lady, December 24, 1973 HIDDEN AMONG YOU "Already satan is working his way into your consciousness, seeking to take over your minds. He is now promoting false miracles. Those you call flying saucers are images from hell. My children, if you reject the knowledge of the supernatural, you are now playing right into his hands. While he remains hidden among you, he can go about and, like a ravenous wolf, gobble up My children as they fall from grace." - Our Lady, June 18, 1978 WASTING MONEY "There are no beings on other planets. We've explained to you about the vehicles from hell. So if you keep on wasting your country's money by looking for life on other planets, you will have more starving in your nation. And your country shall go down the drain, so to speak—economically, morally, and actually, factually destroyed." - Jesus, November 1, 1985 ACROSS THE VEIL "You men of science, you go forward out into space, looking and searching for another world. You will find nothing. Out in space, My children, there only lies a void. The other world is across the veil; it is the world of the supernatural. Man of science is ever searching, but never coming to the knowledge of truth." - Our Lady, September 7, 1976 TRANSPORTS FROM HELL "Do not look for land, do not look on another planet for life, for there is none. Only those who delude you tell you this. What you saw, My child, in the past, called a flying saucer by mankind, We have allowed many to see this. They are transports from hell. However, We have never seen a demon, My child, who has taken on a human form, except through the spirit.... "What you have now, because of the sins of mankind, all hell is loosed upon earth. Satan now knows that his time is growing short. That is the truth, My children. I tell you all: your time is growing short." - Jesus, June 18, 1992 SCIENTISTS "There will be great changes in nature upon your earth. Scientists have cast aside their God, and now demons are loosed upon earth who will set in motion diabolical manifestations within the hearts and sight of mankind." - Our Lady, June 16, 1977 PITS OF HELL Veronica - Oh! Oh, I see a - oh, it's a very large pit, I guess, a hole. And sitting down there at the edge of the hole are some horrible-looking things. They look like animals, but they have almost the figures of people. And they're sitting around now, what looks like a glass. And the glass is reflecting up through the hole, and it's almost like a looking glass because its... The rays—there are rays being shot out from this glass, and the rays are going up, up this hole. And I'm watching the rays. And they're shooting out onto the grounds. And as they're going up, riding these rays are these horrible, ugly things, these - I know they're demons; I know. Now Our Lady said: "Watch, My child, what else is exiting from the hole." Veronica - Oh, my goodness! There are things that look like bright lights, but they're like dome-like on the top. And they don't have any windows; they're just great lights. And Our Lady now is standing at the edge of this hole, and She's pointing. And She's saying: "Man will not accept the truth. These are transports of hell." Veronica - Oh, Our Lady's referring to these things that are being seen on earth. Our Lady said: "Make it known, My child, that the false miracles of the end time are now at hand. Satan seeks to confuse you. Make it known, My child, that there is no life beyond your earth as you know it. Man will go out into space. Better that he uses these efforts to find his way back to God." - Our Lady, May 30, 1973 SPIRITS OF DARKNESS In a cave so deep and wide, Your flying saucers seek to hide; Sent up through space, confusion to found. Your earth is now clothed all around With spirits of darkness who travel by night. But do not be frightened; pray for their flight. -Veronica, November 24, 1993
     
  10. servant_of_the_end

    servant_of_the_end New Member

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    Many authors say that God is actually an ET posing as a religious diety. What do you think of this and why similarities in sightings and bible stories?Why do demons need UFOs? Do angels (as in Elijah's chariot) use UFOs?Is it possible that demons and angels actually use UFOs for their purposes?
    Many authors have it wrong. Here is something from Romans 1:19
    ...since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse. 21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
    If God were an ET then where did the material and still unseen but frequently manifested and witnessed spiritual realms come from? We cannot observe our world and its clear wonders and disregard our Creator and those who do so extend reason to a place that it cannot go. But with words some take reason to where it should not. I heard Josh McDowell say this about 30 years ago and I paraphrase; "it's not that people can't believe, it's that they won't believe- and this is due to some moral issue in their lives." And that moral issue is sin. People who confess a Creator must then accept the rules laid down by that Creator be it physical or spiritual law, and each of these measures or rules must follow one another as they walk hand in hand as they should. I have said many times that what happens in the material realm is moved and affected by what happens in the spiritual realm and the interaction between these forces cannot be discounted. Here is something else to ponder regarding the machinations or appliances of the Dragon.Rev 17:8
    The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.
    When this beast is manifested the world will see it and will be amazed in wonderment at what will appear. I believed this will be spiritual creatures the world hasn't seen since the time of the fallen ones when they walked the earth in the open and just may be the Nephilim. When this time is upon us the world will witness things that will bewilder all and the confusion that follows will make it easy for the Dragon to take many in deception. And if this includes manifestations of spiritual creatures disguised as aliens, then what we hear from those who now witness encounters with creatures they claim are ET's we can now understand and see how this may become apparent to those who know what to watch for. It will be, if it comes to pass, part of the strong delusion spoken of by Paul.
     
  11. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I, for one, do not believe in any of the so called "Marian apparations" as being anything outside of pure hoaxes or possibly deceit by the old enemy. Mary was the virgin of Jesus but she occupies no special place in heaven as "queen" or some of the other notions concocted about her. Just another element of the confusion.
     
  12. Slython

    Slython New Member

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    I kind of thought the apparitions could be counterfeit and found an interesting site--->http://www.mt.net/~watcher/october13maryfatima.htmlI got this somewhat angry response from one of the Bible Probe administrators. (I thought Christians were to act in love and humility)We don't know for certain! We do know for certain that God is not some ET. And many times I'd wager, no I'd be certain, that they are counterfeited. But, you referenced the Marian appearances at Bayside, NY in your post to, give some sort of credibility to your looney argument. So, what? Now that that didn't work, you think you'll go and attack Marian appearances? Get a grip! Stop roaming the web and posting in here anything that looks like it will shock people. Because these people in here have seen all that junk and trash on the internet before. Consider the "fruits". Was the Marian appearance Guadalupe, Mexico in December, 1531 A.D. a counterfeit appearance? If it was, then Satan really messed up royally. That single appearance resulted in over 6 million Mexicans being converted to Jesus as their Lord and Savior. How do we know that you aren't a trick of the devil? After that post on UFOs you just made, and no apologies for making it, I'd take 1 out of 3 Mariam appearances being "of God", versus the odds that you aren't here just to do mischief. You have no idea what a post like what you just made on UFOs looks like to real Christians and Jews. Do you? (Lots of love and slow to anger!) [​IMG]
     
  13. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    If that really happened and 6 million mexicans were converted that must have made Satan mad it just shows me God will always overcome.
     
  14. Slython

    Slython New Member

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    They just kicked me off Bible Probe message board because I am too controversial! I mentioned that this site's administrator does not believe in the apparitions and that the Bible Probe admin was not acting in accordance with the fruit of the Spirit and bang - good bye.[​IMG]
     
  15. HammerStone

    HammerStone Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    With all due respect, what happened to you on another board is between you and them. We would appreciate it if you would keep opinions about the site to yourself. Let the chips fall where they may in a case like this. I am sorry that you were banned there and it's fine to say that, but this isn't the place to badmouth them.
     
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