TRUTH

[epostle1]

Love for the truth was a favorite theme of Pope John Paul II. “Let us seek the truth about Christ and about his Church!...Let us love the Truth, proclaim the Truth! O Christ, show us the Truth! Be the only Truth for us!” – Agenda for the Third Millennium Pope John Paul II

The Holy Father’s enthusiasm for the truth however is not shared by the secular world. In fact, its citizens, in general, harbor a distinct fear of the truth. This fear may be analyzed on three different levels:
1) that the truth would impose unwanted moral responsibilities on them;
2) that any association with the truth would occasion an air of pretentiousness;
3) that any claim to the truth might expose them to being wrong.

They prefer freedom from moral responsibility, absence of any “holier than thou” attitude and exemption from the possible embarrassment of being in error. Their fears, however, take them from the very light and meaning they long for, and plunge them into a dark void were they are trapped by a misery of their own making. Their flight from the truth is also an entrance into a world of gloom.

These three fears are ill fated, as well as ill founded. First of all, truth is our only avenue to real freedom. “You shall know the truth and the truth shall set you free.” John 8:32

Ignorance may at times be blissful, but it is never illuminating. St. Augustine once remarked that he had met many people who had been deceived, but never met anyone who wanted to be deceived.

We have a natural hunger for the truth of things. No one ever asks for the wrong time. It is always the “right” time and the truth about things we want to learn.

Untruth is not helpful, but truth is like a beacon that shows us the way. This is why the Pope titled his great encyclical on the freeing function of truth as Veritas Splendor (Truth’s Splendor).

When we are lost we want to learn the truth about our situation so that we can be liberated from our confusion. The truth makes us free; untruth binds us to bewilderment.
The truth about ourselves awakens us to our moral responsibilities, but we need this awakening in order to become whom we truly are, to advance toward our destiny, to build a meaningful life.

We should welcome the truth that illuminates our moral responsibilities with the same enthusiasm that a person who is lost in the woods and welcomes a compass and a map.

Secondly, the fear that any discovery of truth would make us pretentious is also counterproductive. Truth is not of our own making. Even Christ proclaimed that the truth He illuminated did not spring from Him alone. “My teaching is not mine, but His who sent me” (John 17:6)

Truth is not subjective. It represents the objective order of things. The person who comes to know something of the truth, then should experience humility, not vanity, for he discovers something that is not his.

Christ was emphatic in his denunciation of the Pharisees who claimed to know something of the truth but behaved with a pretentious snobbery. Truth is not he cause of Pharisaism, vanity is.

And both Christ and his Church are unrelenting in their advocacy of humility and in their condemnation of vanity. In fact, it may be far less tolerant of Pharisaism than the secular world. Consider, for example, the comment, “I hate anything fake,” made by Britney Spears, a veritable icon of artificiality and pretense. The secular world awards this kind of duplicity with celebrity.

Thirdly, there is the rather spineless fear that in perusing the truth, we might fall into the embarrassing predicament of being wrong. Again, there is nothing wrong that can reasonably justify this anxiety. We all make mistakes. Not to try something for fear of making a mistake is akin to a paralyzing neurosis that would discourage one from trying anything.

Some people avoid marriage because they fear divorce. Others avoid friendship because they fear rejection. The pursuit of truth presupposes a certain amount of courage. If nothing is ventured, as the maxim goes, nothing is gained.

The fact that truth is indispensable for a meaningful life does not mean that it is always agreeable. Mounting the bathroom scale can be a breathless ascent, because the anxious weight-watcher knows that this simple piece of machinery tells the truth.

But he disconcerting truth that one is overweight may be exactly what one needs if exercising and dieting are to follow. The freedom that health offers may need to be preceded by the disagreeable truth that one is too fat.

Truth is as natural to our minds as oxygen is to our lungs and food is to our digestive system. It is a great mistake to regard the teaching of truth as an imposition. The Church does not, nor can she, “impose” truth.

Rather, she endeavors to propose truths to those who are disposed to receive them. The Vatican’s Declaration of Religious Liberty states that, “The truth cannot impose itself except by virtue of its own truth, as it wins over the mind with gentleness and power.

The Church as Guardian of the Truth and Teacher of the Word provides food for hungry minds. She does not impose the truth; no more than do Christians impose food on hungry bodies when they practice this corporeal act of mercy.

She guards it because it needs to be protected against the contamination of error. She teaches it because it is more nourishing than error. Moreover, the truth enables her to teach realistically about the truth of Christ, the truth of the Catholic Church, and the truth of man. Apostles are ministers of love, but they are also servants of the truth.

By Dr. Donald DeMarco, Professor of Philosophy, St. Jerome’s College at U. of Waterloo, he is married with 5 children.

Taken from The Bread of Life Magazine, July / Aug. Volume 26 Number 3, with minor editing by me.

 

[epostle1]

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[aspen]

Finally read Crossing the Threshold of Hope - I am looking forward to meeting John Paul II, someday.

 

[Endtime]

You will have more luck meeting big bird than a pope.

 

[aspen]

You will have more luck meeting big bird than a pope.

No luck needed. Grace is how we are saved, not superstition.

 

[Rach1370]

I agree that truth must be sought in everything, and that most people do not find it....but I would have to say its not that they 'avoid' the truth. The big problem today is that everyone thinks that their views and ideas are 'their' truth, and as long as it is 'true' for them, then that's just fine. How do we define 'truth' and bring the light of God's truth...the only thing holding the fabric of the world together...to people who label their own sinful desires and needs as just and fine, because it's 'their truth'?? They've done away with the black and white principle and made all the shades of grey acceptable and right....in fact they've labelled all of us who stand for the 'one truth' as intolerant, arrogant, uneducated and unenlightened, snobs.
I think it very much a case for this bible verse:

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (Romans 1:24-25 ESV)

 

[Foreigner]

An excellen post, Rach.
Well said.

 

[epostle1]

I agree that truth must be sought in everything, and that most people do not find it....but I would have to say its not that they 'avoid' the truth. The big problem today is that everyone thinks that their views and ideas are 'their' truth, and as long as it is 'true' for them, then that's just fine. How do we define 'truth' and bring the light of God's truth...the only thing holding the fabric of the world together...to people who label their own sinful desires and needs as just and fine, because it's 'their truth'?? They've done away with the black and white principle and made all the shades of grey acceptable and right....in fact they've labelled all of us who stand for the 'one truth' as intolerant, arrogant, uneducated and unenlightened, snobs.
I think it very much a case for this bible verse:

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen. (Romans 1:24-25 ESV)

You've described moral relativism, Rach, a serious problem the world finds itself with.

Moral Relativism Refuted

 

[neophyte]

You've described moral relativism, Rach, a serious problem the world finds itself with.

Moral Relativism Refuted

Very good kepha, but I don't believe you are going to get many responses, [ I hope I'm wromg ] because most non-Catholics on this forum are comfortable with following non- truth of their religious founders along with their non-Biblical personal interpretation of Holy Scripture.

 

[epostle1]

I never intended to get many responses. As of now, the thread has 203 views and that exceeded my expectations. What non-Catholics need to understand is that nobody owns the truth.

The problem is with people who think they do.

 

[Rex]

What non-Catholics need to understand is that nobody owns the truth.

The problem is with people who think they do.

Now what is this? A contradiction? Or a revelation?

http://www.scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p3.htm


ARTICLE 9
"I BELIEVE IN THE HOLY CATHOLIC CHURCH"
Paragraph 3. The Church Is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic
811 "This is the sole Church of Christ, which in the Creed we profess to be one, holy, catholic and apostolic."[sup]256[/sup] These four characteristics, inseparably linked with each other,[sup]257[/sup] indicate essential features of the Church and her mission. The Church does not possess them of herself; it is Christ who, through the Holy Spirit, makes his Church one, holy, catholic, and apostolic, and it is he who calls her to realize each of these qualities.
812 Only faith can recognize that the Church possesses these properties from her divine source. But their historical manifestations are signs that also speak clearly to human reason. As the First Vatican Council noted, the "Church herself, with her marvelous propagation, eminent holiness, and inexhaustible fruitfulness in everything good, her catholic unity and invincible stability, is a great and perpetual motive of credibility and an irrefutable witness of her divine mission."[sup]258[/sup]


Or simply a case of the kettle calling the prot black

I thought the thread title said Truth and the Truth is exactly as you said.
We understand very well that no one owns the truth.

Do you?

 

[Rach1370]

Very good kepha, but I don't believe you are going to get many responses, [ I hope I'm wromg ] because most non-Catholics on this forum are comfortable with following non- truth of their religious founders along with their non-Biblical personal interpretation of Holy Scripture.

I'd have to disagree here....about the Protestants on this board and about our 'religious founders'. Of course there are many that won't listen and barrel on with beliefs they believe only because it was what they were taught, but that is not exclusive to Protestants. Many of us, however, do seek the truth of what God is saying in scripture. That's why we read, go to church, talk it over with other believers and pray. Yes we believe something to be true because we think that's where God has lead us, and we'll believe it until God reveals to us that it is a wrong belief. The key to that is this: we rely on God to do the leading and persuading, not Church doctrine and the say so of other people. I have no desire to begin a Protestant/Catholic things going...I am hardly anti-Catholic even though I do disagree with many of their doctrines...I still believe many, many Catholics are my brothers and sisters. But what you've described above could also be said of Catholics with their need to quote Catechisms above scripture. My point is it can happen to any one, any denomination. That's why, I believe, we need to be carefully to search, and let God steer. J.I Packer said this and I think it brilliant advice:

"we are forbidden to become enslaved to human tradition,...even 'evangelical' tradition. We may never assume the complete rightness of our own established ways of thought and practice and excuse ourselves the duty of testing and reforming them by scripture."

 

[Rex]

J.l Packer


Wisdom is the power to see and the inclination to choose the best and highest goal, together with the surest means of attaining it.

 

[neophyte]

The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ [ Eph, 5;23-32 ] Jesus can have but 'one' spouce, not thirty plus thousands of conflicting churches all claiming the title of spouce of Christ. Only One is the spouce of Christ and being that His apostles are the nucleus of His One Apostolic Teaching Church then it unequivocally has to be that Apostolic Church, none other. Heck, it can't be written any clearer than in Matt.18: 15-18,what more evidence do you need?

 

[IanLC]

The Church (Protestant & Catholic) holds the truth and the standard of truth! When Jesus left He gave the Church power(Acts 1:8) to witness and bear testimony and light of the truth!

 

[neophyte]

The Church (Protestant & Catholic) holds the truth and the standard of truth! When Jesus left He gave the Church power(Acts 1:8) to witness and bear testimony and light of the truth!

Thank you Alan but Jesus left us only "One" church and that Church was Apostolic. Jesus said "my church" not plural usage as in churches, nowhere does Jesus ever say churches and while saying it He was speaking to His apostle Peter.

 

[epostle1]

I'd have to disagree here....about the Protestants on this board and about our 'religious founders'. Of course there are many that won't listen and barrel on with beliefs they believe only because it was what they were taught, but that is not exclusive to Protestants. Many of us, however, do seek the truth of what God is saying in scripture. That's why we read, go to church, talk it over with other believers and pray. Yes we believe something to be true because we think that's where God has lead us, and we'll believe it until God reveals to us that it is a wrong belief. The key to that is this: we rely on God to do the leading and persuading, not Church doctrine and the say so of other people.

I would agree with you if the Church Jesus instituted was left to operate purely on human effort. But He made a much better design, to the point of allowing for sinful humans to run it. What you are doing is pitting the Bible against the Church. Either He founded a Church, or He didn't. Either He never left us, or He took a 1500 year vacation. Either the Church produced the Bible (with God's superintendence), or it fell out of the sky.

A common error is thinking a church was produced by the Bible. That's why "bible-believing Christian" is so silly to me. Jesus founded a teaching, living, visible, hierarchical, infallible, supernatural Church. He didn't say, "There will be a book 300 years from now, after that its you and God."

What many Protestants/non-denominationalists don't realize is they are following Luther and Calvin, and "non-denominationalism" is reformist to the core.

I have no desire to begin a Protestant/Catholic things going...I am hardly anti-Catholic even though I do disagree with many of their doctrines...I still believe many, many Catholics are my brothers and sisters. But what you've described above could also be said of Catholics with their need to quote Catechisms above scripture.

The Catechism is quoted when the need arises to explain Catholic doctrine. You misunderstand the relationship between the Catechism and scripture. For one, the catechism is peppered with scripture. In fact, most of the catechism is derived from scripture. Check the footnotes. One reason we have a catechism is because each and every consistent teaching has been challenged over a 2000 year period. All Catholic doctrine is primarily derived from scripture. It is not the function of the catechism to supplant or be above scripture.

My point is it can happen to any one, any denomination. That's why, I believe, we need to be carefully to search, and let God steer. J.I Packer said this and I think it brilliant advice:

"we are forbidden to become enslaved to human tradition,...even 'evangelical' tradition. We may never assume the complete rightness of our own established ways of thought and practice and excuse ourselves the duty of testing and reforming them by scripture."

"Testing and reforming by scripture" according to whom? J.I Packer?

 

[Rach1370]

The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ [ Eph, 5;23-32 ] Jesus can have but 'one' spouce, not thirty plus thousands of conflicting churches all claiming the title of spouce of Christ. Only One is the spouce of Christ and being that His apostles are the nucleus of His One Apostolic Teaching Church then it unequivocally has to be that Apostolic Church, none other. Heck, it can't be written any clearer than in Matt.18: 15-18,what more evidence do you need?

Um, yeah. Okay. You need to read "Church" as "elect". The 'Church' of Christ is his elect people...those who have him as Lord and Saviour. That way you don't get Catholic people saying that all Protestants are going to hell and vise versa.

I would agree with you if the Church Jesus instituted was left to operate purely on human effort. But He made a much better design, to the point of allowing for sinful humans to run it. What you are doing is pitting the Bible against the Church. Either He founded a Church, or He didn't. Either He never left us, or He took a 1500 year vacation. Either the Church produced the Bible (with God's superintendence), or it fell out of the sky.

I'm not quite sure I follow you here...
Yes, obviously Jesus knew when he instituted the Church that sinful people made up the Church. That we 'run' it is debatable, however. Jesus is still the Head of the Church, still present with us through the Spirit. Also, we can know his thoughts and plans for the Church, collectively and individually, through scripture, which we must remember, he left for us. The bible is not just a pretty history tale, it's God's letter to us, to instruct and guide us.

A common error is thinking a church was produced by the Bible. That's why "bible-believing Christian" is so silly to me. Jesus founded a teaching, living, visible, hierarchical, infallible, supernatural Church. He didn't say, "There will be a book 300 years from now, after that its you and God."

Okay...I'm sorry, but the above just doesn't make sense, and I think if you truly see it that way, then no wonder you're anti-Protestant. The 'bible' isn't some magical tome that 'created' the Church. What it is is a factual and truthful account of God's work in human history, and the message and work of Jesus here on earth. It is those things...Jesus, his work on the cross, his resurrection and gift of grace and the Spirit, that births both Christians individually and corporately as a Church. The reason we can come together as a saved 'elect' people is because of the truth of scripture and the Spirit's affirmation of that truth. If you only rely on a 'people'...saved or not, to carry on a 'church' then you run the risk of Chinese whispers. We have seen in the past with the Catholic Church how lost it can become with fallen people leading it, and again now in Protestantism with all the offshoots that have turned into cults. People are fallible, even people who have a genuine love of Christ can fall and take wrong turns. That is why it is essential to have God's word...his very truth written down for us to go back to again and again....it helps keep us on his narrow path, knowing that no matter how twisted or lost people might become, through good or bad intentions, that we can always come back to what God had first lain down for his elect people, the Church.

What many Protestants/non-denominationalists don't realize is they are following Luther and Calvin, and "non-denominationalism" is reformist to the core.

Actually, most of us do realise it...it's why we're Protestant. Luther and Calvin were not a perfect men...but any man who claims to be is worshipping his own idol. But what Luther and then Calvin did was bring attention back to the Bible, which is basically bringing importance back to Jesus and his life and teaching, and away from men. And any person who says that that's wrong or misguided or un-needed needs a come to Jesus talk.

The Catechism is quoted when the need arises to explain Catholic doctrine. You misunderstand the relationship between the Catechism and scripture. For one, the catechism is peppered with scripture. In fact, most of the catechism is derived from scripture. Check the footnotes. One reason we have a catechism is because each and every consistent teaching has been challenged over a 2000 year period. All Catholic doctrine is primarily derived from scripture. It is not the function of the catechism to supplant or be above scripture.

I do understand what you're saying, but it still troubles me because a lot of Catholics will still run to the Catechisms before biblical verses...they rely on the RCC's interpretation of scripture first, actual scripture second. See....I feel uncomfortable relying on something that is only "primarily" derived from scripture. Our beliefs should be exactly from scripture, 100% from scripture....our doctrines should be formed only through biblical text alone. Any hint of people...be it history, 'modern understanding', tradition....anything at all that comes from and through man, is bound to be faulty...maybe not all the time, maybe not always, but certainly and assuredly enough to see corruption leak in bit by bit. The only way to cut this off at the root is to keep things 100% scriptural.

"Testing and reforming by scripture" according to whom? J.I Packer?

Um...it's kind of an established fact that you test and reform scripture by scripture. You do that along with a lot of praying and perhaps a lot of reading of stuff by authors you know and trust to be Godly men. Of course they are not perfect, so basically it just comes back to reading the bible and praying. God the Holy Spirit is well capable to lead us where we need to be...we just need to search and be willing for him to guide us.

 

[dragonfly]

The Bible says the Church is the bride of Christ [ Eph, 5;23-32 ] Jesus can have but 'one' spouce, not thirty plus thousands of conflicting churches all claiming the title of spouce of Christ. Only One is the spouce of Christ and being that His apostles are the nucleus of His One Apostolic Teaching Church then it unequivocally has to be that Apostolic Church, none other. Heck, it can't be written any clearer than inMatt.18: 15-18,what more evidence do you need?

neo, all your moaning about the number of Protestant denominations, set against the Roman Catholic Church, indicates again and again that you imagine Protestants are as reliant on their various managerial hierarchies for what they believe, as Catholics are.

Truly, there are many church attendees who have no interest in a personal relationship with God.

They attend church out of habit, out of fear, out of peer pressure, out if a misunderstanding of the gospel (for which many priests and pastors will one day be held accountable by Jesus Christ Himself), out of self-seeking of one kind or another. They are doomed.

The great liberty which Protestants died for, was once also available to Roman Catholics, until it didn't suit the purpose of its hierarchy, to have too many real Christians expecting the hierarchy to care about truth. The Roman Catholic Church wasn't always as far off truth as it became. I completely acknowledge that. But you are on a losing wicket, today, trying to defend what it has become. Sure, you might be getting many pats on the back for toeing the party line, but that would terrify me if I didn't have an independent assurance from God, that the party was toeing His line.

Paul teaches that each believer is in a Father-son relationship with God. St Paul describes many aspects of that relationship in detail. The apostle John also defines the difference between the children of God, and the children of the wicked one (as there are only two kinds of 'children'), and both of them speak clearly of the need to discern truth from lies, and to continue in truth, as Jesus taught.

If you as a Roman Catholic are holding to Christ as your Head, then you know exactly what I'm talking about. The group of people who hold to Christ as their Head, are 'the Church', regardless of being 'Catholic' or 'Protestant'.

The Roman Catholic Church has not troubled itself to use Paul's expositions of how 'the Church' is structured, so it's impossible for either you or I to know whether your church has any understanding of his teaching, which was authorised by Jesus Christ.

These are serious difficulties to overcome, and whether you can 'see' it or not, I am informing you that every Christian has access to God Himself through the Holy Spirit, a privilege which Jesus Christ died to obtain for us, and to those Christians who did not battle their way through mind-numbing rhetoric from men, to the pure, raw truth of His life, to obey Him, He will, one day, say, 'Depart from me. I never knew you.'

The choice is yours. Are you going to trust men who live in unchallenged and unsurpassed wealth, or, the Son of Man who left His throne in glory, making Himself poor that He might make us rich through the reception of His love and salvation, and the fatherhood of God?

 

[neophyte]

Everything that is true in the Christian faith, which of couse came directly from Jesus to His apostles, without any errors is found within Catholicism.The Catholic Church uses as it's two beacons of light ,#1 is God's Tradional Apostolic Teachings and #2 the inerrant Word of God the Holy Bible.
Many people who are not Catholic actually believe nearly all the doctrines of the Catholic Church without knowing it
.
As far as Sola Scriptura/Bible Alone along with the individual personal interpretation of the Bible with this type of religion it would not be Christianity as introduced by Jesus and it was not the Christianity of the early Christians If all Christians abided by this formular as their compass for salvation being that it consisted in each person,s adapting an ideal to his or her own personally, then one man's idea would be just as good as the next guy's.The result of this would be an awful imposistion for anyone to impose his private interpretation on another person who chose to disagree with him.resulting in dissention and confusion as found in most modern churches from man's conception. This type of practice would not be Christianity, because this is not Christ's Christianity. Christianity is a revealed faith/religion, as it is to avoid conflicts of opinions and personal "religions" [ie. just the Bible alone ]. To avoid the religion/faith as revealed by God is a huge mistake, even if that way of Christian faith that you non-Catholic's hang on to could possibly be accepted by God and is as we know accepted by the Catholic Church [ in most cases ] as producing brothers and sisters in Christ doesn't make it the total revealed type of Christianity as introduced by God for all of us.And it is for that reason there must be religious authority in that one true church that Jesus left for "all" of us.
This is why Jesus established an earthly authorative Church, Ask yourself this question of what chance would the human race have for survival if everyone was free to carry into practice his or her own personal concept of either government or morality?
Authority must also exists within God's earthly Church also, because we do not make the rules for our Christian faith God does, a That is the reason Jesus transferred His Authority to His Apostles/Successors. It is clearly seen in the Bible and from the early Christian, Jewish and secular writings.