Trying To Work This Out - Outer Darkness

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stunnedbygrace

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The outer darkness is never said to be cast into the lake of fire. And it at least appears to me to be present during the thousand year reign and also AFTER death is done away with and he’ll is thrown to the lake of fire and when the new heaven and earth has come down.

Im trying to see if I can gain any more understanding, so I’m gathering the verses I think may talk about the outer darkness.

1 Samuel 2 - He watches over the feet of His godly ones, But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; For not by might shall a person prevail.

Silenced in darkness. Not thrown into the fire. And who does the verse say the wicked are? Those who try to prevail by their own might. I see this as saying they don’t look for the strength and power of God to prevail but labor in their own strength and their confidence in their own ability to prevail with God. The verse is a bit difficult for me because I have always seemed to have the thought that the wicked go to the lake of fire rather than the outer darkness so…I’m working on getting it settled within me better. I guess I also think there’s a difference between having confidence in yourself silently or having that confidence and leading OTHERS to it. In other words, are you harming just yourself or are you also harming the destiny of others? Thinking you can see is one thing but telling others you can see and can help them is another thing.

Isaiah 8 - To the Law and to the testimony! If they do not speak in accordance with this word, it is because they have no dawn. They will pass through the land dejected and hungry, and it will turn out that when they are hungry, they will become enraged and curse their king and their God as they face upward. Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness.

Mathew 8-Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mathew 22 - Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

I have some difficulty with this one too, because I don’t see the called but not chosen as wicked. I see them as the righteous. However, if you don’t ever get to chosen and IN Him, I think you can at least be clothed in humility and counted among the righteous. Don’t know, have some confusion here…but this parable seems to agree that the man was not clothed in humility - Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

2 Peter 2 - These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.

Job 18 - He is driven from light into darkness, And chased from the inhabited world.


I also have in mind that the outer darkness is the prison spoken of that a man who doesn’t extend to another the forgiveness that he has been given is thrown into, which he won’t escape until he pays his own debt, which is reinstated because of what he did.
I’m not certain it’s the outer darkness but I have never found anything else I think this prison can be.
So next I’m going to gather the verses about prison.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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Of the verses that mention prison and imprisonment, Ezra 7 has seemed best to me.
And whoever does not comply with the Law of your God and the law of the king, judgment is to be executed upon him strictly, whether for death or for banishment, or for confiscation of property or for imprisonment.”

I think I can see “confiscation of property” as works burned up. And death as the lake of fire. And imprisonment as outer darkness. Banishment… not clear on.

 

Lambano

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If I may suggest a different interpretive framework, read the imagery in Jesus's parables. (What, would the master of parables use poetic imagery?) Imagery is an indirect language, and reading it is a notoriously inexact science, but "Outer darkness" is death imagery.

Think about it. Prisons are enclosed "inner" places. What does "outside" bring to mind? What does "darkness" bring to mind? Binding a man hand and foot and throwing him outside the city walls into the Negev desert where there is no water, no food, foraging jackals, poisonous snakes, it's cold, and it's dark, that's a slow death sentence.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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And that slave who knew his master’s will and did not get ready or act in accordance with his will, will receive many blows, 48 but the one who did not know it, and committed acts deserving of [ag]a beating, will receive only a few blows. From everyone who has been given much, much will be demanded; and to whom they entrusted much, of him they will ask all the more.

Bruising wounds clean away evil,
And blows cleanse the innermost parts.

This last one seems to say that there will be some cleansing in the lashes.

Malachi 3:3 he will sit as a refiner and purifier of silver, and he will purify the sons of Levi and refine them like gold and silver, until they present right offerings to the LORD.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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If I may suggest a different interpretive framework, read the imagery in Jesus's parables. (What, would the master of parables use poetic imagery?) Imagery is an indirect language, and reading it is a notoriously inexact science, but "Outer darkness" is death imagery.

Think about it. Prisons are enclosed "inner" places. What does "outside" bring to mind? What does "darkness" bring to mind? Binding a man hand and foot and throwing him outside the city walls into the Negev desert where there is no water, no food, foraging jackals, poisonous snakes, it's cold, and it's dark, that's a slow death sentence.
Mmm…I see that the prison offers Hope that he may get out by the way it is worded.
 

stunnedbygrace

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If I may suggest a different interpretive framework, read the imagery in Jesus's parables. (What, would the master of parables use poetic imagery?) Imagery is an indirect language, and reading it is a notoriously inexact science, but "Outer darkness" is death imagery.

Think about it. Prisons are enclosed "inner" places. What does "outside" bring to mind? What does "darkness" bring to mind? Binding a man hand and foot and throwing him outside the city walls into the Negev desert where there is no water, no food, foraging jackals, poisonous snakes, it's cold, and it's dark, that's a slow death sentence.
The outer darkness appears to still exist AFTER death is done away with though.
 

stunnedbygrace

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Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

It’s after the last enemy of death is done away with. There will be no more curse.

So it really does begin to look like some receive a worse fate than the lake of fire.
 

stunnedbygrace

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The outer darkness could be purgatorial during the thousand years and then become fixed after. But you cannot get past the fact that it appears to exist after death is gone.

I don’t think it’s a place unbelievers go either.

Im going to keep looking.
 

ScottA

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The outer darkness is never said to be cast into the lake of fire. And it at least appears to me to be present during the thousand year reign and also AFTER death is done away with and he’ll is thrown to the lake of fire and when the new heaven and earth has come down.

Im trying to see if I can gain any more understanding, so I’m gathering the verses I think may talk about the outer darkness.

1 Samuel 2 - He watches over the feet of His godly ones, But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; For not by might shall a person prevail.

Silenced in darkness. Not thrown into the fire. And who does the verse say the wicked are? Those who try to prevail by their own might. I see this as saying they don’t look for the strength and power of God to prevail but labor in their own strength and their confidence in their own ability to prevail with God. The verse is a bit difficult for me because I have always seemed to have the thought that the wicked go to the lake of fire rather than the outer darkness so…I’m working on getting it settled within me better. I guess I also think there’s a difference between having confidence in yourself silently or having that confidence and leading OTHERS to it. In other words, are you harming just yourself or are you also harming the destiny of others? Thinking you can see is one thing but telling others you can see and can help them is another thing.

Isaiah 8 - To the Law and to the testimony! If they do not speak in accordance with this word, it is because they have no dawn. They will pass through the land dejected and hungry, and it will turn out that when they are hungry, they will become enraged and curse their king and their God as they face upward. Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness.

Mathew 8-Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mathew 22 - Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

I have some difficulty with this one too, because I don’t see the called but not chosen as wicked. I see them as the righteous. However, if you don’t ever get to chosen and IN Him, I think you can at least be clothed in humility and counted among the righteous. Don’t know, have some confusion here…but this parable seems to agree that the man was not clothed in humility - Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

2 Peter 2 - These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.

Job 18 - He is driven from light into darkness, And chased from the inhabited world.


I also have in mind that the outer darkness is the prison spoken of that a man who doesn’t extend to another the forgiveness that he has been given is thrown into, which he won’t escape until he pays his own debt, which is reinstated because of what he did.
I’m not certain it’s the outer darkness but I have never found anything else I think this prison can be.
So next I’m going to gather the verses about prison.
You are correct with the "prison" idea...as we who were and are born into this world are captives. This world is that outer darkness. Thus, He said, "the kingdom of God is within you."
 

stunnedbygrace

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I never can stick to topic in a thread of mine. I find too many new things that shoot out in all directions. I just remembered that there’s such a thing as unregenerate believers, as an apostle found believers who weren’t given the Spirit yet.
 
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Lambano

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Mmm…I see that the prison offers Hope that he may get out by the way it is worded.
It's good that you leave room for God's mercy. I'm probably going to need it.

I have no doubt that believers also will be held accountable for our actions in this life. How that works out, I don't know. You could make a case that this is the Purgatory "Debtor's Prison", though that begs the question as to how a debtor in prison is going to earn anything to pay off the debt. The Prison imagery seems appropriate. I suppose you could try to make a case that that the "Outer Darkness" is like a Purgatorial Exile, analogous to the Babylonian Exile (if I may change imagery).

When and where this happens, or if it even happens in space and time as we know it, I don't know. Maybe somewhere in the intermediate state in Sheol between death and resurrection. God knows.
 
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Lambano

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Blessed are those who wash their robes, so that they will have the right to the tree of life, and may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs, the sorcerers, the sexually immoral persons, the murderers, the idolaters, and everyone who loves and practices lying.

It’s after the last enemy of death is done away with. There will be no more curse.

So it really does begin to look like some receive a worse fate than the lake of fire.

As a rule, I try not to get bogged down trying to map out detailed events on the eschatological timeline. Christ's return, the Judgment, and the end to sin and death is what's important. I guess everybody has to have a hobby, though. But I'll give it a try. The verse quoted, Revelation 22:14-15, is an exhortation to the reader, not a description of events on the timeline. Those sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and the like he refers to got tossed into the burning garbage pit (another vivid image) along with Death and Hades back in Revelation 21:8. So, "outside" just means they're not going to make it inside, and the reader is exhorted to not be one of them. It doesn't mean they're in the dark outside the city walls looking in forever. In any case, there is no night there. (Revelation 22:5.) No darkness anymore.

So, I'm still not convinced that the Outer Darkness is eternal conscious punishment.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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As a rule, I try not to get bogged down trying to map out detailed events on the eschatological timeline. Christ's return, the Judgment, and the end to sin and death is what's important. I guess everybody has to have a hobby, though. But I'll give it a try. The verse quoted, Revelation 22:14-15, is an exhortation to the reader, not a description of events on the timeline. Those sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and the like he refers to got tossed into the burning garbage pit (another vivid image) along with Death and Hades back in Revelation 21:8. So, "outside" just means they're not going to make it inside, and the reader is exhorted to not be one of them. It doesn't mean they're in the dark outside the city walls looking in forever. In any case, there is no night there. (Revelation 22:5.) No darkness anymore.

So, I'm still not convinced that the Outer Darkness is eternal conscious punishment.
Thank you. Very much! I finally have a bit of evidence (one verse) that what I’ve hoped for many years is true - that it only lasts for the thousand years and is a purgatorial type place.

This is huge for me. The last time I got such a huge help was a few months ago when I found the verse in Rev 20 that did away with pretrib rapture.

Im relieved. Again, thank you.
 
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Charlie24

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The outer darkness is never said to be cast into the lake of fire. And it at least appears to me to be present during the thousand year reign and also AFTER death is done away with and he’ll is thrown to the lake of fire and when the new heaven and earth has come down.

Im trying to see if I can gain any more understanding, so I’m gathering the verses I think may talk about the outer darkness.

1 Samuel 2 - He watches over the feet of His godly ones, But the wicked ones are silenced in darkness; For not by might shall a person prevail.

Silenced in darkness. Not thrown into the fire. And who does the verse say the wicked are? Those who try to prevail by their own might. I see this as saying they don’t look for the strength and power of God to prevail but labor in their own strength and their confidence in their own ability to prevail with God. The verse is a bit difficult for me because I have always seemed to have the thought that the wicked go to the lake of fire rather than the outer darkness so…I’m working on getting it settled within me better. I guess I also think there’s a difference between having confidence in yourself silently or having that confidence and leading OTHERS to it. In other words, are you harming just yourself or are you also harming the destiny of others? Thinking you can see is one thing but telling others you can see and can help them is another thing.

Isaiah 8 - To the Law and to the testimony! If they do not speak in accordance with this word, it is because they have no dawn. They will pass through the land dejected and hungry, and it will turn out that when they are hungry, they will become enraged and curse their king and their God as they face upward. Then they will look to the earth, and behold, distress and darkness, the gloom of anguish; and they will be driven away into darkness.

Mathew 8-Truly I say to you, I have not found such great faith with anyone in Israel. And I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; but the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


Mathew 22 - Then the king said to the servants, Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. For many are called, but few are chosen.

I have some difficulty with this one too, because I don’t see the called but not chosen as wicked. I see them as the righteous. However, if you don’t ever get to chosen and IN Him, I think you can at least be clothed in humility and counted among the righteous. Don’t know, have some confusion here…but this parable seems to agree that the man was not clothed in humility - Now he told a parable to those who were invited, when he noticed how they chose the places of honor, saying to them, When you are invited by someone to a wedding feast, do not sit down in a place of honor, lest someone more distinguished than you be invited by him, and he who invited you both will come and say to you, ‘Give your place to this person,’ and then you will begin with shame to take the lowest place. But when you are invited, go and sit in the lowest place, so that when your host comes he may say to you, ‘Friend, move up higher.’ Then you will be honored in the presence of all who sit at table with you. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted.

2 Peter 2 - These are springs without water and mists driven by a storm, for whom the black darkness has been reserved.

Job 18 - He is driven from light into darkness, And chased from the inhabited world.


I also have in mind that the outer darkness is the prison spoken of that a man who doesn’t extend to another the forgiveness that he has been given is thrown into, which he won’t escape until he pays his own debt, which is reinstated because of what he did.
I’m not certain it’s the outer darkness but I have never found anything else I think this prison can be.
So next I’m going to gather the verses about prison.

Jesus said, "I am the light of the world." So "darkness/outer darkness" is the opposite of Christ.

It is a state of being whether literally of spiritually. The context, as always determines which.

It can be a state of spiritual darkness without the knowledge of Christ, or it can be a literal state of being in Hell.

Don't over think it, just take it as it comes and decide if it's literal or spiritual.
 

Waiting on him

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but the sons of the kingdom will be thrown out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
I don’t believe that gnashing of teeth here has anything to do with physical pain.
Furthermore I do believe the darkness is a reference to spiritual blindness.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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It’s okay, Lambano helped me work it out. Years of agonizing and ina second, relief. I’m on to the next thing, which is how we are all trying to right the wrongs of our childhood. And how, if you throw an extreme narcissist into the mix, you will never, ever get free and understand and get emotional health unless God helps you.
They say we marry our mothers and fathers and it’s because we are trying to right the wrongs. It’s a big mess. Maybe more so for those who had a parent on the extreme end of the scale but it’s common to all.
 

stunnedbygrace

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And when I remember the above, when participating in a thread in here where people get extremely nasty, It helps some. But I am adamant I will not participate or allow them to define me because they’re trying to rewrite the script of childhood with me as the “villainous” character.
And while I know they sometimes can’t yet see that they are trying to project their “bad” onto me, I can clearly see it. And no matter how much more angry they get that I won’t accept their narrative, I will be truthful.

It’s the most amazing thing to see and watch though. They will get so, so angry while stating that YOU are angry. And they can’t see that the opposite is true. They literally think and insist you are angry( or mean or dealing treacherously in some way) when you are absolutely not. And it’s because they have the script in their mind and you are the “bad” character and the script/narrative HAS to be stuck to - you HAVE to be/play your written part!
It’s very strange and it’s all humans. God was right - from the top of the head to the sole of the foot, horrible wounds.
 
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stunnedbygrace

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It’s a bit like the verse about being like children playing…I played this song but you didn’t act according to script and then I played that song and still you didn’t play your expected part, didn’t act or emote as I wanted you to, as you were supposed to!
 
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