Twelve, Eleven, then Ten? (Apostles)

[dak]

Your posts weren't addressed to me directly.

No need to get worked up—I wasn’t changing my argument. I simply misspoke.

All of the rest of that post was just another rehash of the same arguments that have already been refuted. The only thing left which has not yet been fully explained, but has already been touched on, is what I already tried to explain by way of the calendar of the Master and the apostles, straight from the opening creation account, which you counted as irrelevant and didn't want to hear or learn anything about it, and its relevance to this topic at that point in our discussion, (and thus I dropped it). However the point it would have brought forth may also be exhibited with a more easy to understand observation from the scripture, that is, the fact that Luke 24:33-49 is a companion passage with John 20:18-23.

All one needs to do is simply count the number of appearances of the Master to his apostles/disciples in their order as written in the Gospel accounts.

The following is my count:

1st Appearance:

Matthew 28:16-17 ASV
16 But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them.
17 And when they saw him, they worshipped him; but some doubted.

2nd Appearance: (comprising portions from three companion passages)

Mark 16:14 ASV
14 And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven themselves as they sat at meat; and he upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them that had seen him after he was risen.

Luke 24:33-36 ASV
33 And they rose up that very hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they rehearsed the things that happened in the way, and how he was known of them in the breaking of the bread.
36 And as they spake these things, he himself stood in the midst of them, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.

John 20:19-23 ASV
19 When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you.
20 And when he had said this, he showed unto them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.
21 Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace be unto you: as the Father hath sent me, even so send I you.
22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit:
23 whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.

3rd Appearance: (at the sea of Tiberias, John 21:1-22)

John 21:14 ASV
14 This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

As for your view, since you include the erroneous Thomas insertion at the end of John 20, and refuse to believe that it has been attached to a companion passage with two other Gospel account records, your view not only adds another appearance by that fact, but also even another second appearance eight days later, according to the Thomas passage inserted into the text: for the text states that the Master appeared again to them, eight days later, when Thomas was there. By the time you get to John 21:14 you have at least FIVE appearances while the text says it was the THIRD time!

(Now you can say we're done.)

 

[dak]

1. Your numbering of appearances contradicts the Gospels’ own order​

You call Matthew 28:16-17 the “first appearance,” but Matthew himself places earlier resurrection encounters before the Galilee scene:

• The women meet Jesus (Matthew 28:9-10)
• Only after that do the Eleven go to Galilee (28:16)

So Matthew’s Galilee appearance is not the first appearance of Jesus to His disciples.
You’re imposing a numbering system Matthew never uses.

Now you are counting the women as "the disciples", please, enough with the shell games, the scripture is clear.

2. John 21:14 counts appearances within John, not globally​

John 21:14 says:
“This was now the third time Jesus was manifested to the disciples…”
Within John’s narrative, that’s exactly right:

1. John 20:19-23 — first appearance
2. John 20:26-29 — second appearance (eight days later)
3. John 21:1-14 — third appearance

John is not claiming these are the third appearance in all four Gospels.
He is counting his own recorded appearances.
Treating John’s “third time” as a universal cap is simply not what the text says.

Wrong again: John 21:14 specifically states, after he was risen from the dead.

John 21:14 ASV
14 This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after that he was risen from the dead.

Apparently context means nothing to you. The text is explicit that the author speaks of three appearances from the resurrection to that appearance at the sea of Tiberias in John 21. The Matthew appearance was at the mountain in Galilee where the Master had appointed them, "the eleven". The appearance in John 21 was also in Galilee but rather on the seashore of the sea of Tiberias, (a certain area of the sea of Galilee, and certainly not a mountain like in Matthew). You simply are not willing to acknowledge the plain clear understanding of any scripture statement or passage that refutes your view, and apparently, the reason you keep introducing confusion is to hide this fact. The remainder of your post is just more of your same arguments that have already been refuted.

Nice chatting.


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[FredVB]

There were more disciples besides the ones that were appointed and those that became apostles. There were possibly 500. There were separate times that Jesus appeared after the crucifixion and death, one time, Thomas was not there, another time he was there. Luke seems to have been writing about what happened at two events joining them in the writing as though at one occasion. That is what I think. At any rate there are explanations for any things such as that in the Bible. If you want contradictions in the Bible you can find them ignoring the explanations and possibilities. Later on with prayer the eleven apostles found the one to be appointed as apostle from among all the disciples with the qualifications he had after the loss of Judas Iscariot.

 

[stevesonthebay]

I see no justification for doing that because the scripture itself doesn't do it. Moreover the scripture uses the phrase "the eleven" instead of doing what you suggest: so if what you suggest was true then why would we find "the eleven"? What is the reason for that terminology in the Gospel accounts where it is found?

I think but I am not sure that it is to do with doubting Thomas. But I think it doesn't matter. It is what it is and we should not get caught up on fixating on semantics, interpretations and all that.

All possibilities are open and all we know is the testimony given which is basically covering the risen Christ appearing to His disiciples and highlighting how some found it hard to believe that Christ has actually risen from the dead, A feat Thomas thought impossible.

But the testimony is Thomas seen and touched and believed. To say that some will disbelieve and want evidence. But Christ said great are those who believe without seeing. This was the testimony and of the eye witnesses to show that Christ has truely risen from the dead.

From Reply #57

Matthew 28:16 ASV
16 But the eleven disciples went into Galilee, unto the mountain where Jesus had appointed them.

The eleven disciples, no more, no less.

Mark 16:12-14 ASV
12 And after these things he was manifested in another form unto two of them, as they walked, on their way into the country. [Emmaus]
13 And they went away and told it unto the rest: neither believed they them.
14 And afterward he was manifested unto the eleven themselves as they sat at meat; and he upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them that had seen him after he was risen.

The eleven themselves, no more, no less. Companion passage with Luke 24:9-49 and John 20:18-23, proving that John 20:24 is spurious and not original to the Gospel of John.

Luke 24:8-9 ASV
8 And they remembered his words,
9 and returned from the tomb, and told all these things to the eleven, and to all the rest.

To the eleven, and no less, and to and all the rest, for they told those things to the whole group including those who were followers and disciples but were not apostles of the inner circle: the only one missing was Judas Iscariot the betrayer because he was dead.

Luke 24:33-35 ASV
33 And they rose up that very hour, and returned to Jerusalem, and found the eleven gathered together, and them that were with them,
34 saying, The Lord is risen indeed, and hath appeared to Simon.
35 And they rehearsed the things that happened in the way, and how he was known of them in the breaking of the bread.

The eleven gathered together, and no less, and those that were with them, for they told those things to the whole group including those who were followers and disciples but were not apostles of the inner circle: the only one missing was Judas Iscariot the betrayer because he was dead. Companion statement with Mark 16:14.

So does this place doubt on the story of doubting Thomas by John. Or maybe he just got it wrong and assumed Thomas was not present earlier.