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Two In The Field One Is Taken One Is Left

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Love123, Jul 21, 2006.

  1. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    I agree the first resurrection happens before the millennium and the second resurrection happens after the millennium. That's all folks, add no more resurrections or take none away, they're only 2.
     
  2. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shalom, AlanforChrist.

    YOU keep the Bible in it's right context! The "Blessed Hope" is NOT about the pre-tribulational rapture! It most certainly IS about the resurrection! The rapture, or more appropriately the "harpazo," means the "snatching away," not the "catching up!" It has no implication to the direction of "up" and if it were not for the contextual clues of "heaven (sky)," "air" and "clouds," it should have been otherwise translated in the KJ Version of 1 Thes. 4:13-17.

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    KJV


    The word "up" is SUPPLIED and is not a good translation of "harpazoo." In fact, the Greek preposition meaning "up," "ana," is not even present in this passage! The only time it occurs in this passage is as a prefix to the words "anastee" in verse 14 and "anasteesontai" in verse 16, both referring to "standing up" as in being resurrected! So, if Yeshua` will have just arrived and God brings with Him those who had been sleeping in Yeshua` why would He go elsewhere?! All this passage says is that we shall be snatched away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air never to be separated from Him again! So, unless one expects to remain suspended in the air indefinitely, we will be going with the Lord wherever He is going! However, if He is going anywhere from this moment in time, why would He be going back into the sky or back to "Heaven?" First, it says nothing of the kind in this passage. Second, sorry, but that is nonproductive, and it is even counterproductive to the prophecies of the Tanakh (the OT), which depict the Messiah as returning to RESCUE the nation of Isra'el from yet another attack by their enemies.

    I've heard lots of reasons proposed for when the Messiah Yeshua` (Christ Jesus) will return, the chief one being when God says "It's time," but no biblical answer. Some believe that the closest thing we have to a biblical answer is found in the Olivet Discourse in Matthew 24:14:

    Matthew 24:14
    14 And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.
    KJV


    So, the argument is this: when all the world has had the "gospel of the kingdom" preached in it, then the Messiah can return. However, there is a problem with this viewpoint. IS the "gospel" that churches "preach" today the same as this "gospel of the kingdom?"

    However, there IS a better biblical answer! Yeshua` told the Jews of Jerusalem this:

    Matthew 23:37-39
    37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
    38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
    39 For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.
    KJV


    Therefore, it's not about how well we "preach the gospel" to all the nations! It's about the JEWS and whether they can welcome Yeshua` as the Messiah promised! The good news about the Kingdom is the message "Thy God reigneth!" (Isaiah 52:7) When THAT message is heralded (Greek "keerusoo" = translated as "I preach") to all the world, THAT is when Yeshua` will return! The sentence, "Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the LORD," is a quote from Psalm 118:26. There, it consists of 4 words in Hebrew:
    "Baruwkh haba' b'shem YHWH." "Baruwkh haba' " are the words in Hebrew which translate best to our word, "Welcome!" Literally it means "Happiness (to) the comer!" "In the name" comes from the one word "b'shem" and means "in/on the authority of," and "YHWH" is God's Name, commonly called the Tetragrammaton. Some people think this is pronounced "Jehovah"; others use the appropriate sound for the "yod" and say "Yehovah"; still others think it should be pronounced "Yahweh," but knowing some Hebrew and that the "vav" is the only letter in the whole name that can be used as a vowel, I think it should be either pronounced "Yah-HOO" or "Yah-HO," probably the "Yah-HOO" transliterated as "YaHuWH." Therefore, the words mean "We welcome the Comer in the authority of YaHuWH."

    THIS is what we are to be working toward - Getting the Jews to accept Yeshua` and welcome His Return!
     
  3. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    [1]There is no rapture recorded in Rev 20.
    [2]The resurrected in Rev 20, Are those who get killed during the tribulation, The Church had already been raptured to heaven and came back with Jesus at that time.
     
  4. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    Trekson, my friend, I think your timeline is off a bit...

    1Co 15:22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
    1Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

    1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

    Not the best translation here, precede is much better than prevent in this case...

    G5348
    φθάνω
    phthanō
    fthan'-o
    Apparently a primary verb; to be beforehand, that is, anticipate or precede; by extension to have arrived at: - (already) attain, come, prevent.

    The Diaglott has it...

    1 Thessalonians 4:15 This for to you we may say by word of Lord, that we the living ones those
    being left over to the coming of the Lord, not not may precede those having slept.

    1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    So when do the dead in Christ rise? When Christ returns at the last trump...

    1Co 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    And so as it says in verse 15, the living are changed just after the resurrection of the dead at the return of Christ at the Last Trump. It hasn't happened yet, and every man in his own order.
     
  5. Trekson

    Trekson Well-Known Member

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    I don't see where you get that I implied the general resurrection has already occurred. Those coming out of the graves when Christ was resurrected is recorded in the bible. I agree that Christ will return at the last trump, however this is different from the 7th trump of Revelations. The "last trump" is from a different category of trumpets related to the feast of trumpets, not judgmental trumpets.
     
  6. John_8:32

    John_8:32 New Member

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    I think we see this so much differently. The last Trump is the seventh Trumpet.

    The Feast of Trumpets looks forward to this last Trump and the return of Christ.
     
  7. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    The Last Trumpet most certainly is NOT the seventh Trumpet of God's Wrath.
     
  8. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    Anyone who believe the Church goes through the tribulation period,
    Either doesn't know the Bible, Or Are calling Jesus, a lying deceiver.
    They are calling Paul and other God inspired Biblical writers, Lying deceivers.

    As for 2 Thess 2: 3, It is a physical departure, It's the pre-trib rapture.
     
  9. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    My relatives??? If you mean what the early Apostles taught and their later disciples of the early Church, then yeah, those ARE my relatives, and they held to a post-tribulational return and gathering to Christ, though they did not use that term for it in their day.

    The KJV phrase "a falling away" in 2 Thess.2:3 is the sole Greek word 'apostasia' (Strong's no.646). It means - DEFECTION FROM THE TRUTH according to Strong's Exhaustive Concordance. It is where the English word 'apostasy' comes from.

    Greek 'apostasia' is used one other time in the Greek NT manuscripts, in Acts 21:21 in the KJV as "forsake".


    So I don't know what GARBAGE TRASH you're listening to that apostasy means to physically be raptured, but I guess such blind ignorance as your's today is just another marker for how close the times are.
     
  10. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Now that is just plain uncalled for; labeling Christians as deceiving liars just because they disagree with your eschatology... really now.

    You did not address any issue I brought up. Instead you go right to the ad hominem attack. That's pitiful. That is not how we reason with each other.

    And I'm sorry; you're building your house on sand. Apostesia does NOT mean a physical departure. It is the source for our word apostasy and it means the same thing.

    Furthermore, the departure from morals is a condition which precedes Christ's parousia and our being gathered to Him.
     
  11. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    Alan that's pretty strong language for someone that has no proof at all, only an opinion just like the rest of us.






    Your opinion is there's no rapture in Rev 20
    My opinion there's no rapture until the first resurrection,which is explained in Rev 20

    Another opinion you have is that the church is raptured before the trib. But you fail to so in scripture where this resurrection of the dead in Christ is spoken of . So without the resurrection there can be no rapture.
     
  12. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    [1]Your relatives were the people who went about giving erorneous teachings about the end times.

    [2]There is no post-trib rapture. If there was, That means the Church will meey Jesus in the air and come straight back to earth with Him, And that wouldn't make any sense, Plus, Jesus went to heaven to prepare our mansion, And if we were raptured after the tribulation, We wouldn't be going to heaven.


    [3]PLEASE NOTE, 2 Thess 2: 3, Doesn't say a falling away from the faith, DOES IT??, NO..No. False teachers made that lie up.
    The Greek and the Biblical context means, A Departing from the earth, NOT THE FAITH.
    V 3 agrees with v6-7.
    First the Church goes, Then the ant-christ can come.
    The Greek word "Apostasia" does mean forsake, But in 2 Thess 2: 3, It doesn't mean Apostasia,
    It 's a word made up of two Greek words, Meaning "A departing" and "From". And in it's right context, It means a departing from the earth.. NOT THE FAITH.

    The only blind ignorance is on from them who believe the Church has to go through the tribulation.
    Anyone who believe the Church goes through the tribulation period, Either doesn't know the Bible, Or they are calling Jesus a lying deceiver.

    There are to many Biblical scriptures that prove the pre-trib rapture for it not to be true.








    [1]The Bible is my proof, At least I don't teach from 1st imaginations.
    [2]We don't go by opinions, We should go by what the Bible says,
    The Bible isn't there to be interpreted, It's there to be believed.






    [1]I never said Christians are deceiving liars. I said.
    One either doesn't know the Bible, or they are call JESUS a lying deceiver.
    Because both Jesus and Paul who was inspired by God, Said we would be raptured before the tribulation.




    [2]The Greek and the Biblical contextin 2 Thees 2: 3, means, A Departing from the earth, NOT THE FAITH.
    V 3 agrees with v6-7.
    First the Church goes, Then the ant-christ can come.
    The Greek word "Apostasia" does mean forsake, But in 2 Thess 2: 3, It doesn't mean Apostasia,
    It 's a word made up of two Greek words, Meaning "A departing" and "From". And in it's right context, It means a departing from the earth.. NOT THE FAITH.

    [3]There has been a departing from the faith, You wouldn't recognise some Churches today,
    There has be a falling away of Christian morals, One of them is in there scruffy dresswhere, We are suposes to be Embasadors for Christ, Not copying the worlds dress code.
    Even Miisters have no resect for God, Their Ministries or the people they Minioster to.
    So there hass been a falling away in the Christian morals sense.
    But 2 Thess 2: 3 doesn't mean that.
     
  13. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Alan, you are seriously in error.

    And saying that does not have me reject Christ by calling Him a liar! That is even more offensive.

    I'm sorry. You're just able to be sharpened. I reject your "teaching."

    The rebellion has begun. 20-25% of Americans are "nones." They believe nothing. Large Protestant denominations embrace sin through acceptance of homosexuality even making these people clergy. The RCC is not exempt from falling away. The secular world wants license for its vices and the love even Christians should have has grown cold.

    And this AND the revealing of the anti-Christ have to come before Jesus returns and we are gathered up to Him.

    P.S. Even the link you gave for 2Th 2:3 links to 1Ti 4:1 and that passage is entitled falling away from faith.

    You are seriously in error in your take on apostesia.
     
  14. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    Since when has telling the truth been seriously in error.
    I think you have got your facts wrong, It should be when one is wrong there are in serious error.

    Read this again and see if it isn't true.
    Anyone who believes the Church goes through the tribulation period, Either doesn't know the Bible, Or they are calling Jesus a lying deceiver.

    What so heard to understand about that??.

    You have to rejec tmy teaching, Because if you don't, You will have to admit you either don't know the Bible, Or you are calling Jesus a lying deceiver.
    But rather then admit that, You would rather say God got it wrong.
    God wan't change His word to suit you, You'll have to change your believing to agree with God's word.

    NO.. NOO. The serious error comes from you, GET IT RIGHT.
     
  15. ENOCH2010

    ENOCH2010 New Member

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    The left behind series does have it's following
     
  16. veteran

    veteran New Member

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    I see, all you're wanting to do here is make false accusations and bear false witness of the usage of Greek 'apostasia' in 2 Thess.2:3 by Apostle Paul. Basically, you show you have no problem telling lies to try and persuade that the Pre-trib Rapture theory is true.

    You CANNOT remove the Greek word 'apostasia' from 2 Thess.2:3, NOR its meaning per the Greek, nor even its English equivalent 'apostasy'!

    Apostle Paul related his 'apostasia' idea with the coming of that "man of sin" in 2 Thess.2 sitting in a stone temple in Jerusalem proclaiming himself as God, and exalting himself over all that is called God, or that is worshipped. A Christian who turns from Christ Jesus to worship another in His place is the ACT OF AN APOSTATE, one who has fallen away from the Truth. That is the meaning of the 2 Thess.2:3-4 Scripture.
     
  17. revturmoil

    revturmoil New Member

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    Stop with that kind of talk. Nobody is calling Jesus a lying deceiver and just because we disagree with you doesn't mean we don't know our bible.

    However I do believe the words of Jesus when He said,

    Matthew 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
    30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
    31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

    Mark 13:24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
    25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
    26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
    27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
     
  18. teleiosis

    teleiosis New Member

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    Well Alan, since I am a believer, and intelligent enough to do my word study: I'll follow Jesus' teaching that the Rapture happens AFTER the midpoint of the one ''seven' AND AFTER the SHORTENED Great Tribulation ON the Day of the Lord (with the sixth Seal) when Jesus comes on the clouds!

    And from Revelation chapters 13-16 I'll follow Jesus' revelation to John that the Harvest of Saints comes AFTER the talking image abomination and the two laws WE'RE told to disobey EVEN THOUGH to do so means we, the Elect, will lose our lives before Jesus comes on the clouds to gather us up.
     
  19. Retrobyter

    Retrobyter Well-Known Member

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    Shabbat shalom, AlanforChrist, and Happy Chanukkah.
    Now, now; let's not take the nasty route.
    Actually, the problem is in the definition of the word "heaven." If you would use the simplest definition for the Greek word "ouranos," you would translate the word as "sky," and that is what the word means. For instance, consider Matthew 16:1-4:

    Matthew 16:1-4
    16 The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
    2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
    3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowring. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
    4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed.
    KJV


    Get a Greek New Testament and look these verses up. You will find that each of the four highlighted words above is the SAME GREEK WORD, "ouranos!" So, Yeshua` didn't refuse them a sign, but he gave them a Farmer's Almanac kind of sign! "Red sky at night is a sailor's delight; red sky at morning, sailors take warning!"
    There's another word "epouranios" that refers to the area "above the sky," stemming from the adjective form of "ouranos," "ouranios," and the prefix meaning "above," "epi." That's where the sun, moon, and stars are, according to Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:40-41.

    1 Corinthians 15:40-41
    40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
    41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
    KJV


    In the passage within his first letter to the Thessalonians, the passage most often used for the rapture, Paul never said that we were going "above" the "sky," just "into the air," "eis aera," and "in the clouds," "en nefelais":

    1 Thessalonians 4:13-17
    13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
    14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
    15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
    16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
    17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
    KJV

    Paul said we would meet the Lord and ever be with the Lord (Master Yeshua`), but where does he say that He is going BACK above the sky, taking us with Him? He DOESN'T! I believe that other passages tell us that the Master Yeshua` takes us with Him to ISRA'EL to complete His arrival with an army! Therefore, it's not what Paul said in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-17 that I find most telling but what he did NOT say!
    Well, not exactly. Your understanding of the Greek has been tainted by the teaching to which you are subjected. The word "apostasia" means a "STANDING apart," not a "departing from." It comes from the two Greek words "apo" meaning "away from" and "histemi" meaning "to stand," or more appropriately, "I stand." Furthermore, "apostasia" is closely akin to "apostasion," which means a "divorce" or a "divorce document." I know this is hard to hear, but I would encourage you to take the time and make the effort to look it up for yourself and see if what I'm saying isn't true. (It IS true; I wouldn't lie to you.)

    Also, the "church" already HAS been going through the "Tribulation." The word translated "tribulation" in Matthew and Revelation is NOT just some label for a 7-year period. It's the Greek word "thlipsis" (Strong's NT:2347), which means a "pressure," an "oppression," or a "suppression." In the King James Version of the Bible, it is also rendered "afflicted," "affliction," "anguish," "burdened," "persecution," and "trouble." It stems from the Greek word "thliboo" (using two "o's," "oo," for an omega to keep it separate in transliteration from the short "o" sound of the omicron; it's pronounced as the long "o" in "go," not as a long "oo" in "moon"). "Thliboo" means "I crowd." "Thlipsis" is the Greek word translated as "trouble" in the following verses:

    2 Corinthians 1:3-5
    3 Blessed be God, even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies, and the God of all comfort;
    4 Who comforteth us in all our tribulation, that we may be able to comfort them which are in any trouble, by the comfort wherewith we ourselves are comforted of God.
    5 For as the sufferings of Christ abound in us, so our consolation also aboundeth by Christ.
    KJV


    2 Corinthians 1:8-11
    8 For we would not, brethren, have you ignorant of our trouble which came to us in Asia, that we were pressed out of measure, above strength, insomuch that we despaired even of life:
    9 But we had the sentence of death in ourselves, that we should not trust in ourselves, but in God which raiseth the dead:
    10 Who delivered us from so great a death, and doth deliver: in whom we trust that he will yet deliver us;
    11 Ye also helping together by prayer for us, that for the gift bestowed upon us by the means of many persons thanks may be given by many on our behalf.
    KJV


    And, "thliboo" is translated as "trouble" in verse 6 below:

    2 Thessalonians 1:3-10
    3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
    4 So that we ourselves glory in you in the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and tribulations that ye endure:
    5 Which is a manifest token of the righteous judgment of God, that ye may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which ye also suffer:
    6 Seeing it is a righteous thing with God to recompense tribulation to them that trouble you;
    7 And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,
    8 In flaming fire taking vengeance on them that know not God, and that obey not the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ:
    9 Who shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of his power;
    10 When he shall come to be glorified in his saints, and to be admired in all them that believe (because our testimony among you was believed) in that day.
    KJV


    So, my questions to you are these: Was Paul and the people to whom he was writing a part of the "church," or not? If so, then what makes you think that the "church" won't go through "tribulation" when they ALREADY HAVE?

    Please notice: I do know my Bible, and I have NOT called Yeshua` (Jesus) a "lying deceiver."
    Whereas I agree with you on these points, we still have blind spots to the truth and our own errors because "you don't know that you don't know what you don't know." It's a "catch-22." The REAL question is, are you being taught the right things to believe? Most Christians are followers, not leaders. They will LISTEN to the sermons brought to them by their pastors and teachers each week, but they have never been like the Bereans and "searched out whether these things are true." No matter how much one respects a pastor or teacher, that person is still just a human being and is therefore fallible. Do not make the mistake of putting him on a pedestal or thinking of him as some sort of hero who can't make mistakes. CHECK OUT what he says. Some pastors and teachers will "hide behind the cross" when they speak from the pulpit as though that will make him speak "ex cathedra," as though he could not make a mistake while being so protected. That is FALSE, and one who makes such a claim is lying to himself and to his people! A pastor needs to admit he is just a man, do the best he can to study out matters before teaching others, and then humbly stand before his people, declaring God's Word and not their own.
    There are usually more than just two choices. Only people who are limited to dichotomous thinking believe that it's always "either ... or." Only arguments that can be so arranged into "p" and "~p" ("not p") are truly dichotomous. Some make the error of thinking they have defined a "~p" to their "p" argument only to find that their argument has some portion lacking that defines it as a different argument "q," that is almost the opposite of "p" but not truly in all conditions.

    Although they are only fiction, the Star Trek series are good about getting people to see outside of the dichotomous box! Often, the captains of the various series would be faced with some dilemma of seemingly two choices, neither being favorable. However, they would not rest until they had discovered a THIRD choice. We tend to believe we've set up an "either ... or" scenario, but we are seldom correct. In your statement above, there is at least one other possibility of which you have not considered. What if both Yeshua` and Paul did NOT say that we would be "raptured before the tribulation?" In fact, I can't think of one place in Scripture in which EITHER of them said such a thing!

    So, I put this to you as a challenge: Show me one place in which Yeshua` said that we would be "raptured before the tribulation." Then, separately, show me one place in which Paul said that we would be "raptured before the tribulation." I don't believe you can legitimately find them because I don't believe they exist!
    I've already covered this point. Please review the above.
    No, in that you are right. 2 Thessalonians 2:3 is NOT talking about the "churches" or "ministers" falling away. Paul was talking about the Jews falling away from Torah! The Greek word in this passage translated as "sin" or "lawlessness" is "anomias" and means "no-law." Specifically, according to the context, it means "no-Law" or "no-Torah." To whom would that be important if not to a Jew? In Gentile circles, even among those who call themselves "Christian," who would CARE if one did not believe in or follow the Torah? It's important that we remember that the Book of Books - the Bible - was written by Isra'elis to Isra'elis about the God of Isra'el, YHWH, the father of the Messiah, who also was an Isra'eli!
     
  20. Alanforchrist

    Alanforchrist Member

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    The very reason Paul wrote to the Thessalonian Church, 2 Thess 2, Was because some of your realatives were giving wrong teachings, Saying the Church has to go through the tribulation, So Paul told the Church not to betroubled by your relations, Because the Church won't go through the tribulation.
    Hence, v3, &6-7. The Church is raptured before the anti-christ can come,
    PLEASE NOTE, v3 Doesn't say, "Falling away from the faith", Does it??...No..No.. False teachers made that lie up.

    Anyone who believes the Church goes through the tribulation period,
    Eitherdoesn't know the Bible,[And therefore they are in no position to make such statements],
    Or,
    They are calling Jesus and Paul lying deceivers.

    So which one is it for you, Is it that you don't know the Bible, Or are you calling Jesus a lying deceiver??..
    It has to be one or the other.

    You are part right,
    The Jews and the people that get saved during the trbulation period, will go up in the Mid trib rapture, Possibly along with the backsliders who are left behind at the pre-trib rapture.

    Anyone who thinks the Church goes through the tribulation period, And loses their lives for Christ, Either,
    Doesn't know the Bible, Or they are calling Jesus and Paul [Who was inspired by God], Lying deceivers.

    [1]There are three heavens.
    It was Jesus who said He is coming back to take us to Heaven, Are you callinh Him a liar??.

    [2]My knowledge of the Greek is very well thanks, If you keep the Bible in it's right context with the other Biblical end time teachings, You'll see that first there is the pre-trib rapture, Then the anti-christ can come, Then after the trubulation period, Jesus comes back to reign with His pre-trib Raptured saints.

    [3]The Church does go through tribluation, It has been or years, But there is a big difference between having trouble and going through the great tribulation period.
     
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