Two Tribulations?

[Dave L]

Jewish Great Tribulation: AD 70

““Therefore when you see [2nd person plural = the disciples] the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.” (Matthew 24:15; 16) (NASB95) etc.

Jesus aimed this warning at his disciples. And they left the area when they saw this taking shape. Jesus continued;

““For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.” (Matthew 24:21) (NASB95)

New Covenant era: Christian tribulation with Antichrists until the end.

““Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:23) (NASB95)

Papacy = vicar = in place of Christ.

Days leading up to the end:

““But immediately after the tribulation of those days [New Covenant era] the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Matthew 24:29) (NASB95)

““Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” (Matthew 24:34–36) (NASB95)

What think ye?

 

[Willie T]

I think we have missed most of what the Bible showed us..... we are still looking around, waiting for it to happen.

 

[Keraz]

There have been and will be many times of tribulation for the Jews and for all of God's people.
The Jewish people; the House of Judah faced it in 70-135 AD, in 1936-45 and will again as prophesied in the near future. Amos 2:4-5, Ezekiel 21:1-7, Zephaniah 1:14-18, +
The next 'great tribulation' the world will face, will be the Sixth Seal event and those Christians who stood firm in their faith thru it, will have 'washed their robes', that is: proved their trust and faith in God. Revelation 7:14. They are the great multitude seen by John in Jerusalem, soon after the Sixth Seal has cleared and cleansed all the holy Land.

Years later, the Anti-Christ leader of the One World Govt will conquer them, Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 13:7, but again those who have kept strong in their faith will be taken to a place of safety on earth for the 1260 days before Jesus Returns. Rev 12:14
This will be the period that the Seven Trumpets and Seven Bowls take place; the actual Great Tribulation, culminating in Armageddon, as Jesus Returns in glory.

 

[Enoch111]

Papacy = vicar = in place of Christ.

This is what the Reformers mistakenly believed about the Antichrist. But the pope cannot be, and will not be, the Antichrist. He may assist, but that is all.

As to the rest of your post, let's just say that if you begin with false premises, you will end up with false conclusions.

 

[Dave L]

This is what the Reformers mistakenly believed about the Antichrist. But the pope cannot be, and will not be, the Antichrist. He may assist, but that is all.

As to the rest of your post, let's just say that if you begin with false premises, you will end up with false conclusions.

But you offer no scripture to back your claims?

 

[Trekson]

In my opinion, there is only one great tribulation and it hasn't happened yet. 70ad was an unfortunate result of Israel's rejection of Christ and had very little impact on Christians or on prophecy in general except for helping to spread the gospel to farther areas.

 

[Dave L]

In my opinion, there is only one great tribulation and it hasn't happened yet. 70ad was an unfortunate result of Israel's rejection of Christ and had very little impact on Christians or on prophecy in general except for helping to spread the gospel to farther areas.

70 AD was the great tribulation aimed only at the Jews. Jesus told the disciples "when you see" the abomination of desolation and the grouping of armies, leave the area. This they did. "When you see" is second person plural meaning them, and not us. But Christian great tribulation exists throughout the entire New Covenant era.

 

[Enoch111]

But you offer no scripture to back your claims?

The reason I did not offer any Scriptures is because they have already been offered and rejected as though they mean nothing.

Your first false premise is that there was a Jewish Great Tribulation which occurred in 70 AD. If this were indeed true, then we would all presently be in the New Heavens and the New Earth (which could not possibly resemble th old heavens and the old earth). Yet here were sitting in a world where sin and evil is growing by leaps and bounds, and Christendom is in the midst of the Great Apostasy. And the second coming of Christ has not even happened. Which is proof positive that your Amillennialism is UTTER NONSENSE.

 

[Trekson]

70 AD was the great tribulation aimed only at the Jews. Jesus told the disciples "when you see" the abomination of desolation and the grouping of armies, leave the area. This they did. "When you see" is second person plural meaning them, and not us. But Christian great tribulation exists throughout the entire New Covenant era.

I respectfully disagree. When you really study the Abomination of Desolation, it is only one specific thing that hasn't occurred yet. It will be an image of the a/c erected in a newly built tabernacle/temple. Using Daniel as a template, the only time 70ad could be considered, would have occurred at the end of the siege when it would have been way too late for anyone to flee and the majority of those who would be killed are dead already.

 

[Dave L]

I respectfully disagree. When you really study the Abomination of Desolation, it is only one specific thing that hasn't occurred yet. It will be an image of the a/c erected in a newly built tabernacle/temple. Using Daniel as a template, the only time 70ad could be considered, would have occurred at the end of the siege when it would have been way too late for anyone to flee and the majority of those who would be killed are dead already.

During 167 BC Antiochus Epiphanes had a statue set up in the Jewish temple and had a pig slaughtered on the altar. Thousands of Jews were killed and the temple sacrifices were stopped. This event was predicted by the prophet Daniel about 408 years before it occurred as revealed by the writings of Josephus. This event was the "abomination of desolation" mentioned by Christ in Matthew 24:15.

Jesus used this a a symbol for the continued animal sacrifice which "stood" after he abolish them with the sacrifice of himself on the cross. This coupled with the armies surrounding Jerusalem told Christians to flee. Which they did.

 

[Dave L]

The reason I did not offer any Scriptures is because they have already been offered and rejected as though they mean nothing.

Your first false premise is that there was a Jewish Great Tribulation which occurred in 70 AD. If this were indeed true, then we would all presently be in the New Heavens and the New Earth (which could not possibly resemble th old heavens and the old earth). Yet here were sitting in a world where sin and evil is growing by leaps and bounds, and Christendom is in the midst of the Great Apostasy. And the second coming of Christ has not even happened. Which is proof positive that your Amillennialism is UTTER NONSENSE.

You are confusing history with the future.

 

[Trekson]

Sorry, Dave, While Antiochus Epiphanes is a type we should look for, considering all the prophecy surrounding that passage and the proven history, it could not be him.

 

[Dave L]

Sorry, Dave, While Antiochus Epiphanes is a type we should look for, considering all the prophecy surrounding that passage and the proven history, it could not be him.

Even if so, Jesus spoke to his present audience, not to any in the future, about the Abomination of Desolation and Jerusalem being surrounded by armies.

 

[Enoch111]

You are confusing history with the future.

No. There is a clear chronological progression from the Great Tribulation to the Second Coming of Christ, to the Millennium, and then to the New Heavens and the New Earth.

So according to your theory, the Millennium should be history, and we should be in the New Heavens and the New earth WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS. A perfect world from which sin, evil and death have been eternally banished.

But your false concepts of Bible interpretation lead you to reject all of this and create PURE FANTASY -- a figment of the imagination. Something which totally contradicts common sense, logic, and proper Bible hermeneutics.

 

[Dave L]

No. There is a clear chronological progression from the Great Tribulation to the Second Coming of Christ, to the Millennium, and then to the New Heavens and the New Earth.

So according to your theory, the Millennium should be history, and we should be in the New Heavens and the New earth WHEREIN DWELLETH RIGHTEOUSNESS. A perfect world from which sin, evil and death have been eternally banished.

But your false concepts of Bible interpretation lead you to reject all of this and create PURE FANTASY -- a figment of the imagination. Something which totally contradicts common sense, logic, and proper Bible hermeneutics.

You are rewriting the passage to suit your ideas. It happened just as Jesus said it would to his disciples who left town as it happened.

the time frame of the verb is from the perspective of the speaker/writer, not the hearer/reader. (Mounce Greek for the rest of us).

“And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.” (Matthew 24:2) (KJV 1900)

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?” (Matthew 24:3) (KJV 1900)


see Matthew 24:23 You = pronoun, personal, 2nd person, dative (indirect object), plural. Is the audience Jesus addresses in V 15. When you see the abomination of desolation = those present when he spoke. This means the desolation would happen in their time.

 

[ScottA]

Jewish Great Tribulation: AD 70

““Therefore when you see [2nd person plural = the disciples] the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), then those who are in Judea must flee to the mountains.” (Matthew 24:15; 16) (NASB95) etc.

Jesus aimed this warning at his disciples. And they left the area when they saw this taking shape. Jesus continued;

““For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.” (Matthew 24:21) (NASB95)

New Covenant era: Christian tribulation with Antichrists until the end.

““Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.” (Matthew 24:23) (NASB95)

Papacy = vicar = in place of Christ.

Days leading up to the end:

““But immediately after the tribulation of those days [New Covenant era] the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.” (Matthew 24:29) (NASB95)

““Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place. “Heaven and earth will pass away, but My words will not pass away. “But of that day and hour no one knows, not even the angels of heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone.” (Matthew 24:34–36) (NASB95)

What think ye?

This can be broken down on a timeline pretty much anyway one wants to. Time is an illusion. But with God, in whom there is no shadow of turning...there is only one event, and only before and after.

 

[Enoch111]

““For then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever will.” (Matthew 24:21)

This one Scripture UTTERLY DEMOLISHES any belief that the Great Tribulation is past (and your whole fantastical theory). According to Christ this event (which extends over a period of at least three or more years) is TOTALLY UNIQUE. Which means it has not taken place as yet.

And just so that no one would foolishly claim that it happened in 70 AD, we have the following verse: Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken (v 29).

No honest (or dishonest) person would claim that this has been fulfilled, but according to Dave, it has been fulfilled. Which means that he is either (a) dishonest or (b) deluded.

 

[Enoch111]

This can be broken down on a timeline pretty much anyway one wants to. Time is an illusion. But with God, in whom there is no shadow of turning...there is only one event, and only before and after.

According to you everything Maya (Illusion). Which fits nicely into Buddhism, but has no place in Christianity.

 

[ScottA]

According to you everything Maya (Illusion). Which fits nicely into Buddhism, but has no place in Christianity.

That would mean...according to your comments:

• That time is not just a creation, "created" (by God).
• That God has a "shadow of turning."
• That God is not "I am", but rather "I was", "I is", and "I will be."
• That the created world is not "passing away."
• That Jesus lied about Himself being "before the foundation of the world."
• That Paul lied about the fact that he "was crucified with Christ" and "raised up with Christ."
• Etc., etc.

...But I don't have a convenient 'ism to call you to describe what you believe that is obviously contrary to the word of God, other than you don't know what you are talking about.

 

[ScottA]

According to Christ this event (which extends over a period of at least three or more years) is TOTALLY UNIQUE. Which means it has not taken place as yet.

So...the time of Christ and immediately following was not "TOTALLY UNIQUE?" (Rhetorical - don't bother answering)