Uh oh... I am thinking again. .... about why we dont agree on most things

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

I am about to cut chunks of my post away because it says I am over 10,000 characters..... I am sure you can figure it out.

My character counter says I am at 8,210 unless you also count the ones in the subject?

Well, here goes

Ever wonder why it is that we all were given , from God, some translation of the Holy Bible to use as our handbook and guide us in all ways.... BUT even within those translations some have chosen to change the words just enough that there arises just enough of a challenge to understand the specific meaning.

4 biblical examples below....


! Cor 14:33
KJV
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

NASB1995
for God is not a God of confusion but of peace, as in all the churches of the saints.

Greek Interlinear
Not for He is of disorder the God but of peace. As in all the churches of the saints

Peshitta
Because God is not chaotic, but peaceful, as in all the assemblies of The Holy Ones.

Side note... I find this verse to be educational because ... well lets keep the count down

Any wonder why there is such division in understanding when discussing things of the bible end up in heated debates?

Example;
Starting way back in Genesis and those 144 hours of 6 days that so many are adamant means that's how long it took... yet when you read some fragments from the dead sea scrolls that says...they are not so specific

Genesis 1 from Scroll 1Q1 Genesis

19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q2 Genesisb
8 God called the expanse “sky”. There was evening and there was morning, a second day.

13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q4 Genesis (d)
19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

23 There was evening and there was morning, a fifth day.

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q7 Genesis (g)
5 God called the light “day”, and the darkness he called “night”. There was evening and there was morning, the first day.

8 God called the expanse “sky”. There was evening and there was morning, a second day.

13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

19 There was evening and there was morning, a fourth day.

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q8 Genesish1
8 God called the expanse “sky”. There was evening and there was morning, a second day.

Genesis 1 from Scroll 4Q10 Genesisk
13 There was evening and there was morning, a third day.

6 fragments from 6 scrolls and they all define creation past the first day as "A" day.

This does not suggest that they were consecutive days... it just suggests there were so many days in total.

NO... not debating this point... just using as an example.....and still wondering why there are so many opinions among those brothers and sisters that just dont blend together.

I submit that it is just possible that confusion was the intent.. because those who hold the same thoughts seem to be the people who have a central figure that they have relied on for a few hundred or thousand years. The RCC, who splintered to follow another leader into the Orthodox. The SDA . The JW even those who followed John Calvin or Martin Luther relying on them to explain what is written and all the others.... Whose leaders do not teach the same....

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

Ever wonder why it is that we all were given , from God, some translation of the Holy Bible to use as our handbook and guide us in all ways.... BUT even within those translations some have chosen to change the words just enough that there arises just enough of a challenge to understand the specific meaning.

Ruth Graham once said that she owned about 20 different Bible versions and they all pretty much said the same thing.m ( generally speaking). You can split hairs about the specifics, analyze them to death, but the Holy Spirit will eventually guide you to the truth a d sort things out for you. Everyone is one different levels along that journey.
You compared different versions of 1 Cor. 14:33 as an example. But really they are all saying the same thing. Confusion is disorder and chaos.
The Universe had perfect order, life had perfect order ( at peace) initially. It was created that way, then sin disrupted that order causing confusion, chaos, disorder, disfunction, defects ( mutations). So things were at peace and then they weren't. We were lost and confused; now in Christ, at peace - with Him ... yet since we still are sinners and have this fleshly nature, we war with eachother.

I submit that it is just possible that confusion was the intent

You just quoted a scripture that says the opposite: For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
What was His intent was that the knowledge of good and evil be discerned. In order for that to be experienced, a life long journey of learning about what is wrong about life was essential. We discover that "under the sun, without God, all is vanity of vanities and chasing after the wind". Confusion, disorder and chaos is inevitable on this journey. When we finally see that our way, our path doesn't work and that we are in need for a Savior, then God opens our eyes to the truth.
But I know you are talking about why Christians are not in unity and at peace. Because there is still this war going on inside us, spirit against flesh and flesh against the spirit. We will get caught up in pride and arogance even while discussing God's word because we have not fully reached that level of peace within us. When we die or are translated, we will be fully redeemed, absent all confusion, disorder, chaos and ultimately sin.

 

[Pearl]

I don't know why we don't agree on everything, but surely as Christians who have be spiritually reborn there must be a lot we do agree on because it is the same Holy spirit in each of us.

There is a man in our church fellowship who used to pastor an International church in Portugal. He found that although with such a diverse group of people there were a lot of things they didn't agree on but that was okay as long as they agreed on the important stuff which is the true gospel. Wise man.

 

[Wrangler]

I submit that it is just possible that confusion was the intent.

You just quoted a scripture that says the opposite: For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.

Agreed. Not sure what the thesis is of this thread.

 

[Wrangler]

why we dont agree on most things​

I don't know why we don't agree on everything, but surely as Christians who have be spiritually reborn there must be a lot we do agree on because it is the same Holy spirit in each of us.

Agreed. I think we’d be more agreeable if we spoke with people of a totally different religion.

When I’m among foreigners, I feel my primary calling is that of an ambassador. When I’m among fellow laymen theologians, I feel compelled to delve into the minutia, ancient languages, foreign cultures and debate manmade doctrines.

 

[Pathfinder7]

You can split hairs about the specifics, analyze them to death, but the Holy Spirit will eventually guide you to the truth a d sort things out for you. Everyone is one different levels along that journey.

Good point.
---
It seems that..sometimes, we get into hair-splitting argument..on the forum.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Well, we know whose posts you don't read. ;)

The Only Way We Will Ever Agree

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. Love what you shared. Something that has stood out to me is “and the slain of the Lord shall be many.” is it appropriate to say that it’s holy and good “the slain of the Lord...

www.christianityboard.com

If you read the Bible cover to cover it becomes obvious that God does not expect unity or consolidation in the faith. Christianity is not tolerant. In the OT we realize God is not tolerant,nor love.

There are conflicts in scripture.
So,it stands to reason there is related conflicts among believers in scripture.

If you think about it,to this very day we are made in and behave in the image and likeness of God.

As he said. "....thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

And so it is.

We say, God is in control.

However,we don't agree that's OK either. That's why we pray He changes His plans we find we can't handle as they happen.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Well, we know whose posts you don't read. ;)

The Only Way We Will Ever Agree

Isa 66:16 For by fire and by his sword will the LORD plead with all flesh: and the slain of the LORD shall be many. Love what you shared. Something that has stood out to me is “and the slain of the Lord shall be many.” is it appropriate to say that it’s holy and good “the slain of the Lord...

www.christianityboard.com

If you read the Bible cover to cover it becomes obvious that God does not expect unity or consolidation in the faith. Christianity is not tolerant. In the OT we realize God is not tolerant,nor love.

Really?

There are conflicts in scripture.

Please name some

So,it stands to reason there is related conflicts among believers in scripture.

If you think about it,to this very day we are made in and behave in the image and like ess of God.

As he said. "....thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven."

And so it is.

We say, God is in control.

However,we don't agree that's OK either. That's why we pray He changes His plans we find we can't handle as they happen.

as for why we disagree. I call it pride.. People do not like to be told they are wrong.

 

[Mr E]

Agreed. I think we’d be more agreeable if we spoke with people of a totally different religion.

When I’m among foreigners, I feel my primary calling is that of an ambassador. When I’m among fellow laymen theologians, I feel compelled to delve into the minutia, ancient languages, foreign cultures and debate manmade doctrines.

Can you imagine sitting down at the table of a euchre tournament and grilling folks about their view on eternal security, the rapture, and the trinity before engaging in the game?

We often treat strangers better than brothers and sisters.

 

[Rella ~ I am a woman]

Ruth Graham once said that she owned about 20 different Bible versions and they all pretty much said the same thing.m ( generally speaking). You can split hairs about the specifics, analyze them to death, but the Holy Spirit will eventually guide you to the truth a d sort things out for you. Everyone is one different levels along that journey.
You compared different versions of 1 Cor. 14:33 as an example. But really they are all saying the same thing. Confusion is disorder and chaos.
The Universe had perfect order, life had perfect order ( at peace) initially. It was created that way, then sin disrupted that order causing confusion, chaos, disorder, disfunction, defects ( mutations). So things were at peace and then they weren't. We were lost and confused; now in Christ, at peace - with Him ... yet since we still are sinners and have this fleshly nature, we war with eachother.

You just quoted a scripture that says the opposite: For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
What was His intent was that the knowledge of good and evil be discerned. In order for that to be experienced, a life long journey of learning about what is wrong about life was essential. We discover that "under the sun, without God, all is vanity of vanities and chasing after the wind". Confusion, disorder and chaos is inevitable on this journey. When we finally see that our way, our path doesn't work and that we are in need for a Savior, then God opens our eyes to the truth.
But I know you are talking about why Chriatians are not in unity and at peace. Because there is still this war going on inside us, spirit against flesh and flesh against the spirit. We will get caught up in pride and arogance even while discussing God's word because we have not fully reached that level of peace within us. When we die or are translated, we will be fully redeemed, absent all confusion, disorder, chaos and ultimately sin.

I think there is more to it.

We read the same words yet how many will argue Jesus was already back in 70AD with their preterist understandings. I have a preterist friend who sees that as clear as anything and will take you through scriptures that can make even the strongest believer sway in wonderment.

How about those that will tell one to their face that that are not savewd because they never had that kind of baptism. They see that in the bible..... Just as those who say For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Guess James is missing from their bible....???

But the one that grabs me and really brings it out are those that ask the question...

What will happen to Christians who reject the Sabbath?​

It is not cut and dried by any means because I read and see things I cannot understand why some others do not....

Oh... and let us not leave predestination out of the mix.....

There has to be a reason why because they all work from the same scriptures... but not all see the same thing

 

[APAK]

Can you imagine sitting down at the table of a euchre tournament and grilling folks about their view on eternal security, the rapture, and the trinity before engaging in the game?

We often treat strangers better than brothers and sisters.

It might be a great tactical move to get some folks all worked up, red-faced and lose their concentration in the tournament, and lose. Especially if these folks were passionate and die-hard teachers of Theology...


Seriously though, we should treat Christians better, who are genuinely serious about their faith in God and his Son.

As you know, God's word and his doctrines are given to us without a written user's explanation manual, like we can download it as a bought product. We acquire parts of it over time into our hearts, that then makes it difficult to articulate it well.

We are all trying to produce our own version's of this manual. And as we develop it, and shape it, and reedit it, and share it, as always a work-in progress, we are bound to confront resistance; and it sometimes hurts our feelings and retards out zeal and motivation. And to minimize this friction we then enter in agreements of even minor compromises with those that share most of our views.

Nothing has changed in 2000 years.

 

[Mr E]

It might be a great tactical move to get some folks all worked up, red-faced and lose their concentration in the tournament, and lose. Especially if these folks were passionate and die-hard teachers of Theology...


Seriously though, we should treat Christians better, who are genuinely serious about their faith in God and his Son.

As you know, God's word and his doctrines are given to us without a written user's explanation manual, like we can download it as a bought product. We acquire parts of it over time into our hearts, that then makes it difficult to articulate it well.

We are all trying to produce our own version's of this manual. And as we develop it, and shape it, and reedit it, and share it, as always a work-in progress, we are bound to confront resistance; and it sometimes hurts our feelings and retards out zeal and motivation. And to minimize this friction we then enter in agreements of even minor compromises with those that share most of our views.

Nothing has changed in 2000 years.

Look for the bare neccessities....

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

I think there is more to it.

We read the same words yet how many will argue Jesus was already back in 70AD with their preterist understandings. I have a preterist friend who sees that as clear as anything and will take you through scriptures that can make even the strongest believer sway in wonderment.

How about those that will tell one to their face that that are not savewd because they never had that kind of baptism. They see that in the bible..... Just as those who say For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Guess James is missing from their bible....???

But the one that grabs me and really brings it out are those that ask the question...

What will happen to Christians who reject the Sabbath?​

It is not cut and dried by any means because I read and see things I cannot understand why some others do not....

Oh... and let us not leave predestination out of the mix.....

There has to be a reason why because they all work from the same scriptures... but not all see the same thing

As we grow we learn one thing at a time. Let's say there are 100 doctrines. We don't learn them all quickly and with some others, they take a lifetime. Some of them we must experience to really understand them. Like, "Don't be unequally yoked". You don't really understand what that means until you have a close relationship with an unbeliever. Wow, the unequally yoked push and pull in different directions, argue a lot and get can't find peace.

So to say we are all in disagreement would be to imply we disagree on all 100 doctrines. No, we may only understand half of them and maybe only half of those overlap someone's else's doctrinal views. We can find common ground if we want to; but by nature, men are warriors, we like to challenge, fight and play the Devil's advocate. And if I get a double espresso in me - watch out.

 

[APAK]

Look for the bare neccessities....

Yes, I did the bare necessities/essentials thing when once I lived in some hills of New Zealand, when I was innocent and young. Ignorant and without a care in the world, having real responsibilities to speak about, picking all the Chinese gooseberries and banana passionfruit as I desired. Then the world came home with me one day and kept calling me to conform and fit in.

And today, for many years now, I rejected the world, and it does not knock on my door anymore. I' doing more of the bare necessities thing again, being happy in what I have been given and learned. Being very thankful to God for what he has done and given me over the years. A time to reflect and to continue to hold on to the bare essentials of my life in Christ as the world continued to turn in circles around me.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Really?

Yes,really.

Please name some

I'll name one.
The OT. God and Satan commanded David to take a census.

as for why we disagree. I call it pride.. People do not like to be told they are wrong.

Do you appreciate being proven wrong?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Yes,really.

where?

I'll name one.
The OT. God and Satan commanded David to take a census.

So thats a contradiction?

Do you appreciate being proven wrong?

I am waiting for someone to do it on this topic. I have yet to see it..

If the bible contradicts we may as well throw it out. it is useless.

I see contradictions in Interpretations (most likely interpretational errors)

and contradictions in beliefs (two people read the same passage and come to different interpretations) and one or more of the interpretation causes other parts of scripture to contradict.

A good example is Eph 2: 8-9 and Romans 4 as compared to James 2 (faith/works) which appears to contradict. yet when interpreted correctly. there is no contradiction

 

[Pearl]

Often when we read a passage we've read many times before some words will stand out as if reading them for the first time and we have some new insight. Only the other day I was reading Ephesians 6 and in verse 10 it talks of God's 'mighty power' and it really struck me. And this morning in 1 John 4:15 it tlaks about how we 'rely on the love God has for us'. No wonder it is called the Living Word.

​

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Often when we read a passage we've read many times before some words will stand out as if reading them for the first time and we have some new insight. Only the other day I was reading Ephesians 6 and in verse 10 it talks of God's 'mighty power' and it really struck me. And this morning in 1 John 4:15 it tlaks about how we 'rely on the love God has for us'. No wonder it is called the Living Word.

​

Amen.. There are things that will hit us differently and talk directly to us..

 

[Jay Ross]

The problem that we have is that the original context of the source text is not always conveyed in the translations that we read/use. This in and of itself does lead to confusion.

The LXX Greek translations confirms that the Jewish scholars understanding of the original text had altered over time and the time spans such as the time spans of having possession of the "promised land" changed from "for a period of time where the end point will occur at a time beyond their ability to comprehend" to simple, "forever."

In 2 Chronicles 7:12ff God warned Solomon that if Israel continued in their idolatrous worship that He would allow the Temple to be destroyed, and that He would cause the people of the nation of Abrham's descendants to be scattered to the four corners of the earth, i.e., all over the earth.

This scattering of Abraham's descendants all over the earth began with the northern kingdom and then some 300 plus years later, the southern kingdom was also scattered throughout the earth as well.

The adoption of the "forever" understanding of God's promises to Abraham and his descendants has prevailed even within the body of the believers of Christ such that even many of the "Christians " are now walking contrary to God's purposes with regards to the House of Israel such that replacement theology is now an acceptable stance to hold.

The Gen 15:17ff described land was started to be given to Abraham's descendants when the nation of Israel finally set off to take possession of the Promised Land and King David took possession of the final pieces of the "promised land" during his early reign as King and the nation of Israel began to lose possession of this promised land after the reign of Solomon as his kingdom split, and all that was left was the promised land of Canaan and even that was taken from them in 70 AD when the final scattering of the Israelites to the four corners of the earth occurred.

Our problem with the understanding of God's word and hence the unity of our Biblical understanding lies in how we all perceive what the context of God's words conveys to us. The Holy Spirit should bring unity in this regard; however, this has not been the case so far and as can be seen on this forum, there are many differing opinions presented which the authors believe is God's true understanding.

Unity will not be gained on every aspect of God's scriptures as we all interpret the scriptures slightly differently and the "words" used to express the same point of view often become important enough for some to argue over in the threads on this forum.

Our issue here is to be able to come into agreement with the primary bases in our relationship with God/Christ.

Shalom

 

[FaithWillDo]

I submit that it is just possible that confusion was the intent.. because those who hold the same thoughts seem to be the people who have a central figure that they have relied on for a few hundred or thousand years. The RCC, who splintered to follow another leader into the Orthodox. The SDA . The JW even those who followed John Calvin or Martin Luther relying on them to explain what is written and all the others.... Whose leaders do not teach the same....

Dear Rella,
Scripture tells us why most believers cannot come to the same understanding of God's Word. It is not because of different levels of intelligence, or wisdom, or length of time a person has been a believer or even what church denomination they attend. Mankind's individual abilities have nothing to do with it.

In Mark 8:15-25, Christ teaches how a person comes to a knowledge of the truth (the one and only truth).

Let's start with verses 15-21:

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, HOW IS IT THAT YE DO NOT UNDERSTAND?

In the verses above, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on the spiritual language of God's Word - His language. This scripture below from Isaiah is "key" to understanding why new believers cannot understand God's Word:

Isa 28:9 Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. 10 For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: 11 For with stammering lips and another language will he speak to this people. 12 But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

At this point in time (before the disciples were converted at Pentecost), the disciples had received the Early Rain of the Spirit but had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain of the Spirit). And because of such, they were still carnally minded, spiritually blind and unconverted. They had a "measure of faith" but the spiritual teachings of Christ remained veiled. They simply had no ability to understand the spiritual language of Christ.

Christ ends His comments above by asking the disciples this question: “How is it that ye do not understand?” No response from the disciples is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things that He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, Christ goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in type by the healing of a blind man.

In verse 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. Christ does not have to tell the blind man to look down, the blind man just does it naturally. The spit (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (carnal understanding). This event represents the time when an unbeliever is called out from the world and enters the church.

After Christ asks the man what he could see, the man looks up and says that he could see men "walking as trees". "Walking as trees" is a spiritual symbol for called out believers who walk by sight (the flesh, carnal nature) rather than by faith & the Spirit. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted and could only see Christ carnally. Paul stated that this near-sighted type of understanding will only allow a believer to see "Christ and Him crucified" (1Cor 2:2). This means that the new believer can see Christ's physical work that He did under the Old Covenant, but Christ's spiritual work that He is presently doing under the New Covenant will remain blurred.

This first healing of the blind man reflects the true spiritual condition of a new believer when they first enter the church. At this time, the believer is left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. They can see a little, but that only opens the door to Satan's carnally based deceptions - deceptions which each new believer will readily accept due to their carnal nature still being in control of them (Mat 12:43-45, Mat 24:24 & Luke 5:39).

For a carnally minded and spiritually blind believer (Early Rain only), the Old Wine still tastes better than the New Wine:

Luke 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desires the new: for he says, The old is better.

The Old Wine represents the Old Covenant which is based on the works of man. The New Wine represents the New Covenant which is solely based on the spiritual works of Christ.

Peter says that this near-sighted condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins

Peter makes this statement because the believers to whom he was addressing were mixing their own works with faith. They were still preferring the Old Wine.

In the final verse of the story of the blind man, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again, but as He does, Christ has the man look up instead of down. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to a believer. The man’s upward gaze represents the spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth.

From that moment onward, we now know that the blind man is a type for a called AND chosen believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit (James 5:7-8). The man has been given eyes that can see spiritually ("drawn from the breasts" Isa 28:9). From his new ability to understand God's Word, he will then come out from Satan's deceptions and will begin walking by faith. He will be included in the resurrection of the First Fruits and will receive the reward of life during the ages.

Joe