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Featured UNDER THE LAW!

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by HARK!, May 18, 2020.

  1. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    "Under the law"

    Paul is the only one in the Bible who uses this phrase.

    It's found 11 times in his writings.


    Romans 3:19
    (CLV) Ro 3:19
    Now we are aware that, whatever the law is saying, it is speaking to those under the law, that every mouth may be barred, and the entire world may become subject to the just verdict of God,

    Let's look at this very carefully. The law speaks to those under the law.

    The law speaks so that every mouth in the entire world may become subject to YHWH's judgement.

    As all are subject to YHWH's verdict; it appears that we have two groups here. One group is already subject to YHWH's judgement. The other would not be subject to YHWH's judgement in absence of his Torah.

    The preceding verse serves to further define the behavior of those who are under the law:


    (CLV) Ro 3:18
    There is not fear of God in front of their eyes.

    Why would we fear our loving Abba?

    (CLV) Ex 20:20
    Then Moses said to the people: Do not fear, for in order to probe you the One, Elohim has come, and in order that the fear of Him should come over your faces, that you may not sin.

    What is sin?

    (CLV) 1Jn 3:4
    Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

    ==================================================
    (CLV) Ro 6:14
    For Sin shall not be lording it over you, for you are not under law, but under grace.

    Which law?

    Paul mentions at least 8 of them in this letter:

    The Law of Faith (Ch 3)
    A Different Law (Ch 7)
    The Law of My Mind (Ch 7)
    The Law of Sin (Sin's Law) (Ch 7)
    God's Law (Ch 7)
    The Spirit's Law of Life (Ch 8)
    The Law of Sin and Death (Ch 8)
    The Law of Righteousness (Ch 9)

    I suppose that if sin is lording over you; then you are under The Law of Sin.


    (CLV) Ro 6:15
    What then? Should we be sinning, seeing that we are not under law, but under grace? May it not be coming to that!

    Paul is telling us in no uncertain terms that we may not sin.

    What is sin?


    (CLV) 1Jn 3:4
    Everyone who is doing sin is doing lawlessness also, and sin is lawlessness.

    (CLV) Ro 7:7
    What, then, shall we declare? That the law is sin? May it not be coming to that! But sin I knew not except through law. For besides, I had not been aware of coveting except the law said, "You shall not be coveting."

    Surely The Law of Sin doesn't prohibit coveting.

    The Law of YHWH does.

    ==================================================
    (CLV) 1Co 9:20
    And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under (υπο) law (νομονas) under (υπο)law (νομονas) (not being myself under (υπο) law (νομονas) ), that I should be gaining those under (υπο) law (νομονas) ;


    The Judaeans we're well familiar with YHWH's Law (Torah), but they were also practicing Works of Law.

    I don't see "Works of Law" mentioned in the Torah. I don't see any mention of it by Yahshua. Where is Paul getting this?

    It is mentioned 1 time in Romans and 6 times in Galatians.

    It is also mentioned in the Qumran Scrolls.

    Q394 (4QMMTa) 4QHalakhic Letter
    Dead Sea Scrolls Project: 4QMMT

    Definition of halacha
    : the body of Jewish law supplementing the scriptural law and forming especially the legal part of the Talmud
    Definition of HALACHA

    Yahshua rebuked putting the traditions of men over the Torah.




    (CLV) 1Co 9:21
    to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally (εννομος) Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law.

    "Not being without," is a double negative. Paul is with YHWH's Law.


    (CLV) 1Co 9:22
    I became as weak to the weak, that I should be gaining the weak. To all have I become all, that I should undoubtedly be saving some.

    Apart from the Judaeans the nations didn't even have the Torah
    That said, just a few verses prior in this letter; Paul makes mention of the Torah:

    Some misunderstand this passage.Paul was not a lawless crowd pleaser.


    (CLV) Ga 1:10
    For, at present, am I persuading men or God? Or am I seeking to please men? If I still pleased men, I were not a slave of Christ.

    Acts 17:22-31 is an example of how Paul would put this behavior into practice.



    (CLV) 1Co 9:
    9 For in the law of Moses it is written: "You shall not muzzle the threshing ox.Not for oxen is the care of God!" 10 Or is He undoubtedly saying it because of us? Because of us, for it was written that the plower ought to be plowing in expectation, and the thresher to partake of his expectation."

    HE'S SAYING THAT THE TORAH WAS WRITTEN BECAUSE OF US?


    (CLV) 1Co 11:1
    Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.


    (Continued)
     
  2. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    (Continued)

    ==================================================

    (CLV) Ga 3:19
    What, then, is the law? On behalf of transgressions was it added, until the Seed should come to Whom He has promised, being prescribed through messengers in the hand of a mediator.

    What law was added to what? Transgressions of what? Abraham had the law. The penal code for the land of Israel was added. Levitical priesthood was added. After the Seed (Yahshua) came; the Judaeans were exiled from the land, for rejecting YHWH's word in the flesh. The High Priesthood was transferred to Yahshua; as it is written.

    (CLV) Ga 3:20
    Now there is no Mediator of one. Yet God is One.

    (CLV) Ga 3:21
    Is the law, then, against the promises of God? May it not be coming to that! For if a law were given that is |able to vivify, really, righteousness were out of law.

    YHWH's law is not against grace.


    (CLV) Ga 3:22
    But the scripture locks up all together under sin,

    ...because all have sinned.

    The Law of Sin


    that the promise out of Jesus Christ's faith may be given to those who are believing.

    (CLV) Gn 15:6
    Now Abram believed on Elohim, and He reckoned it to him for righteousness

    (CLV) Gn 26:5
    inasmuch as your father Abraham hearkened to My voice and kept My charge, My instructions, My statutes and My laws.

    (CLV) Ja 2:22
    You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected.

    (CLV) Ja 2:23
    And fulfilled was the scripture which is saying, Now "Abraham believes God, and it is reckoned to him for righteousness," and he was called "the friend of God."

    (CLV) Ja 2:24
    You see that by works a man is being justified, and not by faith only.

    Obedience to YHWH's Law is the fruit of faith.


    (CLV) Ga 3:23
    Now before the coming of faith we were garrisoned under law, being locked together for the faith about to be revealed.

    If we actually believe Yahshua; we will follow his example of obedience.


    (CLV) Ja 2:14
    What is the benefit, my brethren, if anyone should be saying he has faith, yet may have no works? That faith can not save him.

    (CLV) Ja 2:22
    You are observing that faith worked together with his works, and by works was faith perfected
    ==================================================

    (CLV) Ga 4:4
    Now when the full time came, God delegates His Son, come of a woman, come under law,

    (CLV) Ga 4:5
    that He should be reclaiming those under law, that we may be getting the place of a son.

    Reclaiming them from what?

    Paul makes it clear that those who are under the law, are those who have broken the law:


    (CLV) Ro 1:5
    through Whom we obtained grace and apostleship for faith-obedience among all the nations, for His name's sake,

    (CLV) Ro 2:13
    For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
    ==================================================
    (CLV) Ga 4:21
    Tell me, you who want to be under law, are you not hearing the law?

    Paul is asking why you would want to sin, knowing what YHWH's judgements will be.

    (CLV) Ro 2:13
    For not the listeners to law are just with God, but the doers of law shall be justified.
    ==================================================

    (CLV) Ga 5:18
    Now, if you are led by spirit, you are not still under law.

    How can you break YHWH's laws being led by the spirit?

    Let's look at this verse in a little more context.


    (CLV) Ga 5:16
    Now I am saying, Walk in spirit, and you should under no circumstances be consummating the lust of the flesh.

    What is the lust of the flesh?

    Here are some examples:


    (CLV) Ga 5:19
    Now apparent are the works of the flesh, which are adultery, prostitution, uncleanness, wantonness,

    (CLV) Ga 5:20
    idolatry, enchantment, enmities, strife, jealousies, furies, factions, dissensions, sects,

    (CLV) Ga 5:21
    envies, murders, drunkennesses, revelries, and the like of these, which, I am predicting to you, according as I predicted also, that those committing such things shall not be enjoying the allotment of the kingdom of God.


    Yahshua set an example of how for us to behave in a way that is in the Father's will.

    (CLV) Ro 8:29
    that, whom He foreknew, He designates beforehand, also, to be conformed to the image of His Son, for Him to be Firstborn among many brethren.

    (CLV) Jn 16:7
    "But I am telling you the truth. It is expedient for you that I may be coming away, for if I should not be coming away, the consoler will not be coming to you. Now if I should be gone, I will send him to you.

    (CLV) Jn 16:8
    And, coming, that will be exposing the world concerning sin and concerning
    righteousness and concerning judging
    :

    (CLV) Jn 16:9
    concerning sin, indeed, seeing that they are not believing in Me;

    (CLV) 1Co 11:1
    Become imitators of me, according as I also am of Christ.
     
  3. Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

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    You sure it's not 12 times?
     
  4. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Did I miss one?
     
  5. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    This is actually a mistranslation, in all reality, sin is the transgression of the law.

    What is said in Romans 6:14 is that sin shall not have dominion over you when you are not under (the Old Testament) law.

    That because we are forgiven of past, present, and future sin, the law does not apply to us (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6, Galatians 2:19, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, Hebrews 7:18-19) in the way of condemnation.

    And because it does not condemn us, it also does not have the effect of working into us all manner of concupiscence (see Romans 7:5, Romans 7:7-13).

    Sin is the transgression of the law.

    Correct, for Paul is under the law to Christ: he is governed by the law that is spoken of in Galatians 5:22-23: because he bears the fruit of the Spirit, there is no law that he will violate as long as he lives according to the Spirit.

    In a roundabout way. For our obedience doesn't come from seeking to obey a set of do's and don'ts; but rather from being obedient to the promptings of the Holy Ghost and in bearing His fruit in our lives (Galatians 5:22-23, Romans 3:21).

    This scripture is actually more accurately translated,

    Jas 2:14, What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

    It is related as a question; and the answer can be found through looking at Romans 4:1-8 in a thorough manner.

    While not being under the law is a key for us to have victory over sin (see Romans 7:5, Romans 7:7-13), the reality of being under the law has to do with being subject to the law; as the law being able to condemn you when you violate it. If you are forgiven through the blood of Christ then the law cannot condemn you; your relationship to it has changed. It no longer condemns you from the outside (Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, Romans 7:6); rather, it governs you from the inside (Hebrews 8:8-10; Hebrews 10:16).
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  6. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    I used a literal translation. The translation you're using is an oddball translation.

    The KJV translates Strong's G458 in the following manner: iniquity (12x), unrighteousness (1x), transgress the law (with G4160) (1x), transgression of the law (1x).

    G458 - anomia - Strong's Greek Lexicon (KJV)

    Nowhere in any translation have I seen such a mistranslation. There are no legitimate manuscripts that have the words "the Old Testament" in this verse. You have obviously stumbled onto a forgery. Someone with a bias added those words.
     
  7. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Close enough.

    (CLV) 1Jn 3:9
    Everyone who is begotten of God is not doing sin, for His seed is remaining in him, and he can not be sinning, for he is begotten of God.
     
  8. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The kjv is no oddball translation, it is inspired and inerrant.

    And this "narrow-minded" pov may indeed be essential to your salvation:

    Mat 7:13, Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
    Mat 7:14, Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.


    Other translations are often watered-down so that the true weight of the message doesn't carry through.

    Even the revered NKJV, as compared to the kjv, has this problem, in passages such as Colossians 1:22 (compare them and see).

    The law being referred to is obviously the Old Testament law; as that is the default of what we understand the law to be when it is mentioned in the NT.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  9. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    The verses you presented aren't speaking of the law of Christ.

    The law of Christ is the law that he preached and lived by unto death. It's the law that his Father YHWH wrote down for Moses.
     
  10. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The law of Christ is the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Romans 8:2); which is defined by Galatians 5:22-23.
     
  11. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    I didn't say that the KJV was an oddball translation.

    I said that verse within the KJV is an oddball translation. The KJV wasn't consistent with their translation.

    Notice the Strong's info that I provided:

    The KJV translates Strong's G458 in the following manner: iniquity (12x), unrighteousness (1x), transgress the law (with G4160) (1x), transgression of the law (1x).

    I won't even get into the flaws of the KJV here. That would take this thread way off topic.
     
  12. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    1Jo 3:9, Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
     
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    The fact that you think that the kjv has flaws, impaho, makes it more difficult for you to receive the truth of holy scripture that has the power to save you.

    For you will feel free to reject the testimony of the kjv when its statement is essential for your salvation and the translation that you follow would water it down so that you will not receive salvation if you hold it authoritative over and above the kjv.
     
  14. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Paul didn't mention a "Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus;" and even if he had, that's not the same as the Law of Christ. Paul doesn't even mention the Law of Christ in his letter to the Romans.

    You've presented conjecture built on fiction.
     
  15. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    None of these is lawlessness.

    If sin is lawlessness, then such verses as Romans 6:14, Romans 7:4, and Romans 7:6; as well as Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14, and Hebrews 7:18-19 are out of order.

    Of course, even when you translate it as lawlessness, you can still come to the right conclusions; for there is the law of faith (Romans 3:27); and therefore it is not necessarily lawless to hold to the verses previously referenced.
     
    Last edited: May 18, 2020
  16. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Nonsense. The KJV has had additions and subtractions made to the scripture; but it is not so corrupted that you can't see through to the truth, with the Ruach Ha'Kodesh. I did; and I used to be a KJVO.
     
  17. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Blind as a bat.

    Rom 8:2, For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death.

    The law of Christ has to do with the fact that we are not under the OT law and therefore it doesn't any longer condemn us; and neither does it produce in us all manner of concupiscence (see Romans 7:7-13).

    It has to do with the fact that we are obedient to the Spirit of Christ who dwells within us; and has nothing to do with any kind of set of do's and don'ts. If we bear the fruit of the Spirit, we will not live in disobedience to any set of do's and don'ts. Therefore the venue by which we become obedient is faith rather than attempting to keep the law.
     
  18. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    HARK!

    You have come on board recently and have been quoting from the Concordant Literal Version (CLV) which is based on the corrupted Critical Text (essentially that of Westcott & Hort) rather than the Received Text. Most people are not familiar with this version which was created by A. E. Knoch, who used to be associated with the Jehovah's Witnesses. But this man held some heretical doctrines and it shows in his translation. Indeed there are several critiques about his views (which we can discuss at another time).

    His translation of John chapter 1 is totally misleading and confusing. It is not even a true translation since idiomatic English is not used. And the tenses are all wrong.

    CONCORDANT LITERAL VERSION (CLV)

    CHRIST THE WORD OF GOD IS "IT" INSTEAD OF HIM UNTIL THAT BECOMES UNTENABLE

    1 In the beginning was the word, and the word was toward God, and God was the word. " [Note: "Word" is not capitalized, and "toward" means absolutely nothing]
    2 This was in the beginning toward God. [Note: what in the world is "toward"?]
    3 All came into being through it, and apart from it not even one thing came into being which has come into being." [Note: Christ cannot be "it" at this point and then "him" later on, unless the translator wants to confuse the reader]
    4 In it was life, and the life was the light of men."
    5 And the light is appearing in the darkness, and the darkness grasped it not."
    [Note: why is light "appearing" when the Greek says "shines" and so does the English? Just trying to be clever? Also the Greek word is "overcame" not "grasping"]
    6 There came to be a man, commissioned by God. His name was John." [Note: why is "came to be" better than "was"?]
    7 This one came for a testimony, that he should be testifying concerning the light, that all should be believing through it."
    8 Not he was the light, but he came that he should be testifying concerning the light. "
    [Note: who ever says in English "not he was the light"?]
    9 It was the true light - which is enlightening every man - coming into the world. [Note: Christ cannot be "it" in this verse and "He" in the next verse. which shows the stupidity of this translation]
    10 In the world He was, and the world came into being through Him, and the world knew Him not." [Note: now he switches to "He" and "Him"]
    11 To His own He came, and those who are His own accepted Him not."
    12 Yet whoever obtained Him, to them He gives the right to become children of God, to those who are believing in His name,
    [Note: "obtained Him" means nothing, when "received Him" is correct]
    13 who were begotten, not of bloods, neither of the will of the flesh, neither of the will of a man, but of God."
    14 And the Word became flesh and tabernacles among us, and we gaze at His glory, a glory as of an only-begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth." [Note: Christ is not "an only-begotten" (as though there are others) but THE only or uniquely begotten Son of God]
    15 John is testifying concerning Him and has cried, saying, "This was He of Whom I said, 'He Who is coming after me, has come to be in front of me,' for He was first, before me,
    16 for of that which fills Him we all obtained, and grace for grace."
    17 For the law through Moses was given; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ.
    18 God no one has ever seen. The only-begotten God, Who is in the bosom of the Father, He unfolds Him." [Note: this version is following the CORRUPTED W & H critical text which has "only-begotten God", instead of only begotten Son]

    Getting back to Romans 3:19, it is grossly misleading, and does not even come close to what is being said, even in the literal interlinear translation: Now we know that what things soever the law saith, it saith to them who are under the law: that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. (KJV)

    The world does become guilty before God under the Law (not merely subject to the just verdict of God, which is not even a correct translation of the Greek), therefore every mouth is stopped (not barred).

    It would appear that you are trying to prove that you have a superior translation here, and therefore your interpretations are superior, but that is not really the case. Stick with the King James Bible.
     
    prism and justbyfaith like this.
  19. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    Poor you.
     
  20. HARK!

    HARK! Active Member

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    Again, I use a literal translation:

    (CLV) Ro 8:2
    for the spirit's law of life in Christ Jesus frees you from the law of sin and death.

    Who's law?
     
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