Understanding John's Revelation

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Wormwood

Chaps
Apr 9, 2013
2,346
332
83
47
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
“Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear, and who keep what is written in it, for the time is near.” (Revelation 1:3, ESV)

The book of Revelation is supposed to be a blessing. For many, however, it has been a book of mass confusion and contention. This forum will explore how to understand this complex book and show how this book is indeed an incredible blessing that challenges and changes us in ways unlike any other book of Scripture.

1. The book of Revelation is cyclical.
This book was not written chronologically. It consists of a series of visions that depict the same span of history from different vantage points. Thus, the book is similar to the dreams in Daniel. The dreams of the statue, beasts and so forth in Daniel all depict a period of time from Daniel's day to the coming of the Messiah. Those dreams all refer to Babylon, Medes-Persians, Greeks, Romans and the Kingdom of God. One dream does not pick up where the other left off, they are just different dreams giving different details about the same period of time. This is what is going on in Revelation.

Here is a basic outline of the book which shows the cyclical nature and how these various visions have consistent themes. Each vision has a similar progression... Christ glorified, the earth suffers, Christ returns/the wicked are punished and those who are faithful in the midst of the suffering ultimately celebrate.


LETTERS OF WARNING & ENCOURAGEMENT TO THE 7 CHURCHES (1-3)

THE VISION OF THE 7 SEALS (4-7)
Christ is glorified:
“And one of the elders said to me, “Weep no more; behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”” (Revelation 5:5, ESV)

The earth suffers:
“And I looked, and behold, a pale horse! And its rider’s name was Death, and Hades followed him. And they were given authority over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by wild beasts of the earth.” (Revelation 6:8, ESV)

Christ returns/wicked are punished:
“The sky vanished like a scroll that is being rolled up, and every mountain and island was removed from its place. Then the kings of the earth and the great ones and the generals and the rich and the powerful, and everyone, slave and free, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains, calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”” (Revelation 6:14–17, ESV)

The faithful celebrate:
“They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; the sun shall not strike them, nor any scorching heat. For the Lamb in the midst of the throne will be their shepherd, and he will guide them to springs of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.”” (Revelation 7:16–17, ESV)

THE VISION OF THE 7 TRUMPETS (8-11)
The earth suffers:
“Then I looked, and I heard an eagle crying with a loud voice as it flew directly overhead, “Woe, woe, woe to those who dwell on the earth, at the blasts of the other trumpets that the three angels are about to blow!”” (Revelation 8:13, ESV)

Christ returns/wicked are punished:
“Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here!” And they went up to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies watched them. And at that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. Seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.” (Revelation 11:12–13, ESV)

The faithful celebrate:

“Then the seventh angel blew his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”” (Revelation 11:15, ESV)



THE VISION OF THE WOMAN & DRAGON (12-14)
Christ is glorified:

“She gave birth to a male child, one who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron, but her child was caught up to God and to his throne,” (Revelation 12:5, ESV)

The earth suffers:

“Therefore, rejoice, O heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to you, O earth and sea, for the devil has come down to you in great wrath, because he knows that his time is short!”” (Revelation 12:12, ESV)

Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
“And another angel came out from the altar, the angel who has authority over the fire, and he called with a loud voice to the one who had the sharp sickle, “Put in your sickle and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, for its grapes are ripe.” So the angel swung his sickle across the earth and gathered the grape harvest of the earth and threw it into the great winepress of the wrath of God. And the winepress was trodden outside the city, and blood flowed from the winepress, as high as a horse’s bridle, for 1,600 stadia.” (Revelation 14:18–20, ESV)

The faithful celebrate:
“Then I looked, and behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand. And another angel came out of the temple, calling with a loud voice to him who sat on the cloud, “Put in your sickle, and reap, for the hour to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is fully ripe.” So he who sat on the cloud swung his sickle across the earth, and the earth was reaped.” (Revelation 14:14–16, ESV)

THE VISION OF THE 7 PLAGUES (15-19)
Christ is glorified:
“Who will not fear, O Lord, and glorify your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship you, for your righteous acts have been revealed.”” (Revelation 15:4, ESV)

The earth suffers:
“Then I heard a loud voice from the temple telling the seven angels, “Go and pour out on the earth the seven bowls of the wrath of God.”” (Revelation 16:1, ESV)

Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
“Then I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse! The one sitting on it is called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he judges and makes war. His eyes are like a flame of fire, and on his head are many diadems, and he has a name written that no one knows but himself. He is clothed in a robe dipped in blood, and the name by which he is called is The Word of God. And the armies of heaven, arrayed in fine linen, white and pure, were following him on white horses. From his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations, and he will rule them with a rod of iron. He will tread the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God the Almighty. On his robe and on his thigh he has a name written, King of kings and Lord of lords.” (Revelation 19:11–16, ESV)

The faithful celebrate:
“Then I heard what seemed to be the voice of a great multitude, like the roar of many waters and like the sound of mighty peals of thunder, crying out, “Hallelujah! For the Lord our God the Almighty reigns. Let us rejoice and exult and give him the glory, for the marriage of the Lamb has come, and his Bride has made herself ready; it was granted her to clothe herself with fine linen, bright and pure”— for the fine linen is the righteous deeds of the saints. And the angel said to me, “Write this: Blessed are those who are invited to the marriage supper of the Lamb.” And he said to me, “These are the true words of God.”” (Revelation 19:6–9, ESV)

THE VISION OF THE HEAVENLY KINGDOM (20-22)
Christ is glorified:
“Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding in his hand the key to the bottomless pit and a great chain. And he seized the dragon, that ancient serpent, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, and threw him into the pit, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he might not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were ended. After that he must be released for a little while.” (Revelation 20:1–3, ESV)

The earth suffers:
“Then I saw thrones, and seated on them were those to whom the authority to judge was committed. Also I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus and for the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or its image and had not received its mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.” (Revelation 20:4, ESV)

Christ returns/the wicked are punished:
“and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. Then I saw a great white throne and him who was seated on it. From his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done. And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.” (Revelation 20:10–15, ESV)

The faithful celebrate:
“Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth, for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, “Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away.” And he who was seated on the throne said, “Behold, I am making all things new.” Also he said, “Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true.” And he said to me, “It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the spring of the water of life without payment. The one who conquers will have this heritage, and I will be his God and he will be my son.” (Revelation 21:1–7, ESV)

2. The Book of Revelation applies to all
This book is not just for those who live in the final 7 or so years of human history. The message speaks to all Christians about what Christ accomplished, why people suffer after Christ's victory and resurrection, and the end result of those who are wicked and unbelieving vs. those who are faithful and suffer for Jesus' name. As the book says at its beginning, "Blessed are those...who hear...and keep the words of this prophecy..." This book is not just predictive, it is prescriptive. It is a call to faithfulness in the midst of suffering.

3. This book answers difficult questions
Imagine you are a Christian in the first century or even over in North Korea or the Middle East. You love Jesus. He is Lord and "all authority" has been given to him. Why then are you being beaten? Why are you suffering? Why did you have to watch as your children were beheaded or crucified? If Jesus is Lord of all, why is this happening? The reason is because there is a dragon loose in the world and we live in a time of testing and suffering as God's wrath is poured out on a wicked and sinful world. The call of Revelation echoes over and over, "Be faithful even to death, and I will give you a crown of life."

4. Each vision gives different spiritual insights
The visions are cyclical, but each vision gives its own insights and answers different questions. Some visions focus on Christ's conquest as the risen Lamb who is unfolding the seals to bring about God's judgment and deliverance. Some visions focus on the suffering of the saints and why they are persecuted. Some visions focus on the suffering of the wicked and the spiritual hardness and drought God places on them for their wickedness and failure to repent. Some visions show how governments and false religions are used by the dragon to bring suffering and persecution. Some visions focus on the deliverance of the saints and give wonderful detail of the coming Kingdom for the faithful. Yet all the visions point to the same central fact that Jesus is the one who brings about all of God's purposes in the world and that only those who love him, cling to him and follow him will be clothed in white and able to stand on that great and dreadful day. God is in control. In the midst of the storming sea, the beasts, horrors, and demons bringing havoc in the world, God is on his throne, Christ has risen and the sea is as still as glass before him. He is the Alpha and Omega, and he is coming soon. We must be ready and our prayer should continually be, "Even so, come Lord Jesus."
 
  • Like
Reactions: Davy

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
1. The book of Revelation is cyclical.
This book was not written chronologically. It consists of a series of visions that depict the same span of history from different vantage points.
We agree 100% with that assessment. may we suggest a starting point after the The preface, (Chapter 1). how about the birth of Christ, chapter 12, and work our way back to the seven churches. interested?.
 

FHII

Well-Known Member
Apr 9, 2011
4,833
2,494
113
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
For now I'll just say,it wasn't the revelation of John,but rather Christ.

But yes it's not chronological .


I agree. I hestitate to say it is random. It is presented in an order which I don't fully understand myself. But it isn't chronological.
 

Wormwood

Chaps
Apr 9, 2013
2,346
332
83
47
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
We agree 100% with that assessment. may we suggest a starting point after the The preface, (Chapter 1). how about the birth of Christ, chapter 12, and work our way back to the seven churches. interested?.

Sorry I missed this. Are you proposing some sort of study? Not sure what you are asking.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
or now I'll just say,it wasn't the revelation of John,but rather Christ.
agreed chapter 1 verse 1
Sorry I missed this. Are you proposing some sort of study? Not sure what you are asking.
Just input and views on each chapter, especially it's chronological order. just a friendly discussion. not to see if anyone is right or wrong, but a simple discussion of presentation of one's view. not to challenge anyones post but to put our views on the table and learn from each other. it not about who's right or wrong but learning what others have received from the Lord, or even think about a chapter or verse.

I'm suggestion NO challenging of anyone, or anyone's post, simple respect of other's views.
 

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
I agree. I hestitate to say it is random. It is presented in an order which I don't fully understand myself. But it isn't chronological.

Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

revelation1
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,"

This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange.

"I"; this is John speaking and telling us where he was. "I was in the Spirit", not in his flesh body; "on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet". John is taken forward in time, "in the Spirit", to the day of the Lord. The "Day of the Lord" is not referring to Sunday or Saturday. This is the same "Day of the Lord" Paul speaks about in I Thessalonians 5:2, as "coming as a thief in the night". Later in II Thessalonians 2:2-3 Paul makes it clear that at the "Day of the Lord" Christ's return will not happen until "after there will be a great falling away first; and "that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition". Satan must be revealed in his role as the Antichrist first, before that seventh trumpet can sound, the last trumpet.

The time, or day, John was taken to was beyond our time frame, however we are living in the generation that will see it come to pass, and live through what John saw and lived, while in the Spirit. There is only one day that is called "The Day of the Lord" in all the Scriptures.

Isaiah 2:12 "For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low."

This is the day that our Lord returns. This is the day "God's cup of wrath" is poured out upon His enemies. So John was taken in the Spirit to the last day of this earth age, before the start of the age of the Millennium. If you are still in your flesh body, that day hasn't happened yet, and it is still future to us.

Every verse that you read in Revelation from this verse to the end of chapter twenty two, will be viewed from the Lord's day, either looking backwards or forwards a short period of time. If you don't come to that point of time in your understanding with John, the rest of what he is saying just will not make sense.

revelation1
GINOLJC, Good opening, and I agree. so I guess we need to start putting things in chronological order from that perspective. so where, (which Chapter) do you suggest we start at?.
 

Wormwood

Chaps
Apr 9, 2013
2,346
332
83
47
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
agreed chapter 1 verse 1

Just input and views on each chapter, especially it's chronological order. just a friendly discussion. not to see if anyone is right or wrong, but a simple discussion of presentation of one's view. not to challenge anyones post but to put our views on the table and learn from each other. it not about who's right or wrong but learning what others have received from the Lord, or even think about a chapter or verse.

I'm suggestion NO challenging of anyone, or anyone's post, simple respect of other's views.

I appreciate your humility in this discussion. I wish more people had such an attitude when discussing prophetic books.

I guess I am a little confused about your desire to establish a chronology. As I mentioned in the OP, I do not believe the book has a chronology. The book is a series of visions that span from the resurrection of Christ to the redemption of the children of God/punishment of the wicked in every vision. As I pointed out above, chapters 4-7 span from the glorification of Christ to the judgment of the wicked. The same is true with chapters 12-14, etc. Clearly, each vision has its own emphasis and some emphasize one aspect more than another. However, as I see it, each vision has a perspective that puts eternity in focus for the suffering and struggling Christian. For instance, the first vision provides a heavenly vantage point of the judgments on the earth based in the glorified Christ executing the judgments of God on the earth because he has been found worthy of bringing that purpose to fruition. The vision of the woman and dragon emphasizes the suffering of the earth from Satan's vantage point as a defeated foe who is angry due to his being usurped by the risen Christ and seeks to wage war on the those who are faithful to Jesus. The vision of the plagues is from the perspective of the delivered people, much like the Exodus, where they wait faithfully as God punishes an idolatrous world in a plan to deliver his people from their oppressors. You get the idea. Each vision has a perspective and many of these perspectives echo OT perspectives of how God faithfully delivered those who remained faithful to him.

That is the ultimate call of revelation. Be faithful. There is a reason for the suffering in the world. God is punishing the world for standing against the Kingdom of Christ and is bringing about the deliverance of the faithful. I hope this provides further insight into my understanding. I believe we are currently in the millennium, as was John, who was "both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,” (cf. Rev. 1:9). We are still in that tribulation and these visions encourage us to be faithful through our present tribulation while providing some insight as to why the world and believers undergo suffering of various types.

But as for chronology...I suppose it would look something like...

Letter to churches....
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors Daniel's sealed book that can now be unsealed because of Jesus)
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors the fall of Jericho as the people prepare to enter the promised land)
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors Isaiah's images of reaping and sowing based on heavenly conflict)
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors the Exodus and destruction of Babylon as God destroys his people's captors)
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors Isaiah's images of paradise and fiery destruction of the wicked)

Of course, this is a very crude framework. There are all kinds of different images from different OT judgments scattered throughout these visions...whether it be the locust plague of Joel or the laments of Jeremiah...the book is full of various images based in the OT of how presently the people of God are going through like trials and are called to be faithful because the sorrows and suffering they endure are based in a cosmic conflict in which Christ is the ultimate victor and those who are faithful to him will be vindicated.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
when it is understood that Christ is revealed in you, the symbology of the Revelation can be properly applied imo. As you read Rev, remember "I am God of the living, and not the dead" imo, and test your interpretation of Rev for...well, dead people, lol. If any part of Rev happens after you die, it is not the Revelation of Christ. Scripture puts this many other ways. Understand I AM.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
I appreciate your humility in this discussion. I wish more people had such an attitude when discussing prophetic books.

I guess I am a little confused about your desire to establish a chronology. As I mentioned in the OP, I do not believe the book has a chronology. The book is a series of visions that span from the resurrection of Christ to the redemption of the children of God/punishment of the wicked in every vision. As I pointed out above, chapters 4-7 span from the glorification of Christ to the judgment of the wicked. The same is true with chapters 12-14, etc. Clearly, each vision has its own emphasis and some emphasize one aspect more than another. However, as I see it, each vision has a perspective that puts eternity in focus for the suffering and struggling Christian. For instance, the first vision provides a heavenly vantage point of the judgments on the earth based in the glorified Christ executing the judgments of God on the earth because he has been found worthy of bringing that purpose to fruition. The vision of the woman and dragon emphasizes the suffering of the earth from Satan's vantage point as a defeated foe who is angry due to his being usurped by the risen Christ and seeks to wage war on the those who are faithful to Jesus. The vision of the plagues is from the perspective of the delivered people, much like the Exodus, where they wait faithfully as God punishes an idolatrous world in a plan to deliver his people from their oppressors. You get the idea. Each vision has a perspective and many of these perspectives echo OT perspectives of how God faithfully delivered those who remained faithful to him.

That is the ultimate call of revelation. Be faithful. There is a reason for the suffering in the world. God is punishing the world for standing against the Kingdom of Christ and is bringing about the deliverance of the faithful. I hope this provides further insight into my understanding. I believe we are currently in the millennium, as was John, who was "both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ,” (cf. Rev. 1:9). We are still in that tribulation and these visions encourage us to be faithful through our present tribulation while providing some insight as to why the world and believers undergo suffering of various types.

But as for chronology...I suppose it would look something like...

Letter to churches....
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors Daniel's sealed book that can now be unsealed because of Jesus)
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors the fall of Jericho as the people prepare to enter the promised land)
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors Isaiah's images of reaping and sowing based on heavenly conflict)
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors the Exodus and destruction of Babylon as God destroys his people's captors)
Vision: Ascension -> Judgment (mirrors Isaiah's images of paradise and fiery destruction of the wicked)

Of course, this is a very crude framework. There are all kinds of different images from different OT judgments scattered throughout these visions...whether it be the locust plague of Joel or the laments of Jeremiah...the book is full of various images based in the OT of how presently the people of God are going through like trials and are called to be faithful because the sorrows and suffering they endure are based in a cosmic conflict in which Christ is the ultimate victor and those who are faithful to him will be vindicated.
GINOLJC, first I thank my Lord and Saviour for your post, a good one. and I agree with most of your assessment. and thanks for your chronology, and your point on the vision aspect in revelation.
May I give you my reason why I asked about a chronology, it could be or not. but consider this, maybe, just maybe if chapter 12, the first half of the vision already happen, meaning the Birth of christ, and as I said before, chapter 11 the vision is of the two witness, (a past event), who I believe is John the baptist and the Lord Jesus the christ. so the chronology here would be (A). the birth of Christ, chapter 12, which is laid out in Matthews chapter 2. (B). the ministry of John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus the two witness (the gospels). but chapter 5 show the resurrected Christ (the gospels). here we see the birth, the ministry, and the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, that's a chronology, at least to me. then judgment comes in the spreading of the gospel, Chapter 10, and tribulation chapters 9 & 8 and the pivotal point as always chapter "7" which states "And after these things". now this is just me, these things which are seen and written before chapter 7, meaning chapter 4, 5, and 6. so that's why, if true, I suggest if there's a chronology or not. not saying there is one, but John was told to "Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter" (Rev 1:19). so there are three things to write about. things that have already happen, (the christ birth, his ministry, and his death and resurrection, the spreading of the gospel, and tribulation, and maybe wrath?). if what n2thelight say is true, ("Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange"). this i agree, and the revelation at Christ's return would be 90 % past events, because if he was in the spirit, then all would be resurrected. and everything else would be pre millennium . THIS IS ONLY AN OPINION. so maybe we need to examine if this day of the Lord is at the end time, or if there are more that just one day of the Lord, meaning in respect to a certain or particular event. let me explain myself. a day of the Lord for example in Joel, I believe is God's judgment on Sin in the world, my opinion only. as n2thelight said, "The sequence of order will seem strange". I agree with both of you on Chapter 1, 2, & 3. but 4 forward it seem to me more need of revealing in sequence of events, maybe a better word, than chronology. understand I see chapter 12 the birth of Christ, chapter 11 the two witness, John the baptist and the Lord Jesus, chapter 10 the Spread of the Gospel, chapter 9,8 and 7 tribulation in association with the spread of the Gospel. chapter 5 from the resurrection of the Christ, to him being enthrone chapter 4. JUST MY CHRONOLOGY OF EVENTS.

any suggestion as to where we began?. I suggest we need to understand each chapter and find out where it may fit in each vision of the past, the present, (from John point of reference) and the future from. I'm open to suggestions. thanks in advance.
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
if you have not gone out in the way of the 12 or the 70, nor been driven into the wilderness yet, you are just wasting your time wadr.
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
if you have not gone out in the way of the 12 or the 70, nor been driven into the wilderness yet, you are just wasting your time wadr.
it seems like time is being wasted now. but, 1 Corinthians 2:9-16 "But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. 10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. 13 Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he that is spiritual judgeth all things, yet he himself is judged of no man. 16 For who hath known the mind of the Lord, that he may instruct him? But we have the mind of Christ".
 

bbyrd009

Groper
Nov 30, 2016
33,943
12,081
113
Ute City, COLO
www.facebook.com
Faith
Christian
Country
United States Minor Outlying Islands
if you have the mind of Christ, you have stories for all three of those though

um, and you should also have an understanding of baptism of the spirit--not centered on tongues--and the baptism of fire, i guess. You pretty much have to have found a concept of Word that supersedes "the Bible" in order to "hear" what the Rev (in you) is communicating. Interpretations that lead to prognostications of the near future demonstrably miss the point.

At least consider as a possibility that you build a Temple in your life, and then you dwell in it; and "I am the God of the living, and not the dead." The Rev can be interpreted as stages or phases of Struggle, and what you most believe--if it is about some future theoretical existence that you believe will begin after you die--should be questioned.

because imo that fits the symbology of "thief in the night;" a soul who only learns what life was about after they have died, and it is too late. If you are waiting for Jesus to come and do something else before your existence might be considered tolerable, then you are missing the point of "life, more abundantly." That should be apparent.
 
Last edited:

Wormwood

Chaps
Apr 9, 2013
2,346
332
83
47
California
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
101G,

Thank you for your response. I think I understand what you are saying, but we will have to examine things more in depth in regards to where our views are different. I appreciate your understanding and love for the Word of God. Here are some of my reflections on where I differ from your proposals...

chapter 11 the vision is of the two witness, (a past event), who I believe is John the baptist and the Lord Jesus the christ. so the chronology here would be (A). the birth of Christ, chapter 12, which is laid out in Matthews chapter 2. (B). the ministry of John the Baptist and the Lord Jesus the two witness (the gospels). but chapter 5 show the resurrected Christ (the gospels).

First, I disagree with your assessment of the "two witnesses." I do not believe these refer to John the Baptist and Jesus. Rather, I believe they refer to the Church. The reason there are "two" is not because there are two specific people in mind. Rather, Levitical law indicated that a valid testimony required two or three witnesses. Thus, the "two witnesses" indicates a Levitical indictment on those who reject the Gospel.

Second, these "witnesses" are killed in the location "where their Lord was crucified." Thus, I do not see how this could be referring to Jesus or John since the crucifixion clearly occurred prior to the murder of these witnesses. So, let's peek at this vision from the perspective of a suffering, frightened Christian who is worried of losing their home, or their heads for the Gospel. If I am right, Jesus is saying, "You are my witness and carry with you the authority and power of Moses. You have the spiritual capacity to proclaim life or death to those who heed your words or fail to do so. Those who wish to harm you will find that the words you proclaimed will ultimately consume them and will eat their flesh like fire. They think they have authority over you, but you are the one who has all the power and are determining their ultimate fate. And even if they do kill you, as they did me, you will be raised up before them and their imagined city of power will be shaken and they will all be destroyed." That, to me, is the power of this vision. As Christians, we have very little grasp of the power of our words and the life and death we proclaim as we declare the Words of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. This vision helps bring that to light....at least to me.

here we see the birth, the ministry, and the death and resurrection of the Lord Jesus, that's a chronology, at least to me. then judgment comes in the spreading of the gospel, Chapter 10, and tribulation chapters 9 & 8 and the pivotal point as always chapter "7" which states "And after these things". now this is just me, these things which are seen and written before chapter 7, meaning chapter 4, 5, and 6.

Well, I don't know that there is any significance in the chapter numbers as those chapters and verses were added after John wrote and therefore the numbers and divisions of the book are inconsequential to John's message. I see chapter 7 as the end of a vision. "After these things" refers to a period after God's punishment of the wicked (in my opinion) and John is given a vision of the redemption of the children of God. Thus, it is as though the smoke has settled from all God's wrath being poured out on a wicked world. Essentially, John is giving the answer to the question given at the end of chapter 6: “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”” (Revelation 6:17, NKJV)
The answer is after these judgments, he sees the children of God standing...dressed in white. They are the ones who can stand after the wrath of the Lamb from the seals is unleashed.

if what n2thelight say is true, ("Revelation 1:10 "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet," This verse is the key to understanding the book of Revelation. Without a clear and full understanding of it, the entire book just will not make sense. The sequence of order will seem strange"). this i agree, and the revelation at Christ's return would be 90 % past events, because if he was in the spirit, then all would be resurrected. and everything else would be pre millennium .

I am not sure what you mean exactly by this. Can you explain further? I believe the book of Revelation applies to all Christians at all times. I don't think there is a % of historical account and a % of future predictions. I think the entire thing is a series of visions that reflect the current state of the world and why there is suffering, judgment and the need to "persevere." I mean, I think many Christians would be like, "If Jesus won and is on the throne, why am I suffering? Why isn't the world fixed?" Revelation is a polemic for struggling believers as to why suffering continues and why they are called to suffer patiently and wait for the return of the Lord.

Anyway, thats probably a lot to chew for now. Thanks again for the discussion.
 
  • Like
Reactions: bbyrd009

n2thelight

Well-Known Member
Dec 24, 2006
4,052
787
113
60
Atlanta,Ga
GINOLJC, Good opening, and I agree. so I guess we need to start putting things in chronological order from that perspective. so where, (which Chapter) do you suggest we start at?.

Id say start at the beginning,chapter 1.
Most of Revelations can also be found in Daniel
 

101G

Well-Known Member
Jul 20, 2012
12,259
3,385
113
Mobile, Al.
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
101G,

Thank you for your response. I think I understand what you are saying, but we will have to examine things more in depth in regards to where our views are different. I appreciate your understanding and love for the Word of God. Here are some of my reflections on where I differ from your proposals...



First, I disagree with your assessment of the "two witnesses." I do not believe these refer to John the Baptist and Jesus. Rather, I believe they refer to the Church. The reason there are "two" is not because there are two specific people in mind. Rather, Levitical law indicated that a valid testimony required two or three witnesses. Thus, the "two witnesses" indicates a Levitical indictment on those who reject the Gospel.

Second, these "witnesses" are killed in the location "where their Lord was crucified." Thus, I do not see how this could be referring to Jesus or John since the crucifixion clearly occurred prior to the murder of these witnesses. So, let's peek at this vision from the perspective of a suffering, frightened Christian who is worried of losing their home, or their heads for the Gospel. If I am right, Jesus is saying, "You are my witness and carry with you the authority and power of Moses. You have the spiritual capacity to proclaim life or death to those who heed your words or fail to do so. Those who wish to harm you will find that the words you proclaimed will ultimately consume them and will eat their flesh like fire. They think they have authority over you, but you are the one who has all the power and are determining their ultimate fate. And even if they do kill you, as they did me, you will be raised up before them and their imagined city of power will be shaken and they will all be destroyed." That, to me, is the power of this vision. As Christians, we have very little grasp of the power of our words and the life and death we proclaim as we declare the Words of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. This vision helps bring that to light....at least to me.



Well, I don't know that there is any significance in the chapter numbers as those chapters and verses were added after John wrote and therefore the numbers and divisions of the book are inconsequential to John's message. I see chapter 7 as the end of a vision. "After these things" refers to a period after God's punishment of the wicked (in my opinion) and John is given a vision of the redemption of the children of God. Thus, it is as though the smoke has settled from all God's wrath being poured out on a wicked world. Essentially, John is giving the answer to the question given at the end of chapter 6: “For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”” (Revelation 6:17, NKJV)
The answer is after these judgments, he sees the children of God standing...dressed in white. They are the ones who can stand after the wrath of the Lamb from the seals is unleashed.



I am not sure what you mean exactly by this. Can you explain further? I believe the book of Revelation applies to all Christians at all times. I don't think there is a % of historical account and a % of future predictions. I think the entire thing is a series of visions that reflect the current state of the world and why there is suffering, judgment and the need to "persevere." I mean, I think many Christians would be like, "If Jesus won and is on the throne, why am I suffering? Why isn't the world fixed?" Revelation is a polemic for struggling believers as to why suffering continues and why they are called to suffer patiently and wait for the return of the Lord.

Anyway, thats probably a lot to chew for now. Thanks again for the discussion.
GINOLJC, thanks for the post. n2thelight made a good suggestion. let's start at chapter 1, the beginning. great.