Understanding The Deadly Wound

[veteran]

To rightly understand what the 'deadly wound' is upon, one MUST first understand about the 2 separate beasts given in Rev.13...

Rev 13:1-3
1 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
(KJV)

This first beast being mentioned has ten horns, ten crowns, and seven heads. Our Lord then gives a comparison of the beast symbols of Daniel 7 to it. Per those beast symbols in Daniel, they are about 'kingdoms'. In Rev.17 our Lord Jesus told us the 'waters' represent peoples, tongues, nations, and multitudes. That points to this first beast representing a beast kingdom, and it has 7 heads.

In Rev.17 our Lord Jesus also showed John that the seven heads are seven mountains upon which the woman sits. It is ONE of those 7 mountains that suffers a deadly wound that will be healed.

Rev 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
(KJV)


Starting at Rev.13:11, were are shown a 2nd beast, this time an entity, a person. And our Lord Jesus in Rev.17 showed John that 2nd beast is a king, a beast king. So the 'beast' metaphor is applied to both a beast kingdom, and a beast king, in our Lord's Book of Revelation.

Rev 13:11-14
11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

This 2nd beast (dragon) will excercise all the power of the "first beast before him". Again, the first beast is a kingdom and that kingdom has 7 heads. This also reveals when this 2nd beast (dragon) shows up, the deadly wound upon one of the 7 heads of the first beast is healed.


13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,
14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.
(KJV)

When the 2nd beast (dragon) shows up on the earth, he will have power to work great signs and miracles to deceive, and will say to make an image of the beast (1st beast) which had the deadly wound yet lives.


So those are the parameters of the deadly wound prophecy. It affects 'one' of the 'seven heads' (seven mountains). And when the 2nd beast that speaks as a dragon shows up, the deadly wound upon one of the seven heads is shown to be healed. This reveals it is NOT that 2nd beast (dragon) that suffers the deadly wound, but instead the 1st beast which is a kingdom beast.

This further reveals that the seven heads (seven mountains) are specific areas upon the earth, and not just one single location. The one head that suffers the deadly wound is one specific location separate from the other six.

The question we are left with is, just which location is that one head of the beast kingdom that suffers the deadly wound and is healed?

 

[NicholasMarks]

One way of looking at these passages you quote from Revelation is this. That all the governments in the world are dancing around manipulating their people as if doing the dance of the seven veils. They have each learnt that to keep the people subservient whilst these ungodly groups are securing their powerbase is to support each other. Sometimes this isn't possible because the people latch on to the irregularities and so power switches to another place whilst the wounds recover. It is outside our capabilities to follow these machinations...but righteousness says...'don't bother'. Instead...follow the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ and separate ourselves from the deceits and mental osccilations that induce poor reasoning.

 

[veteran]

One way of looking at these passages you quote from Revelation is this. That all the governments in the world are dancing around manipulating their people as if doing the dance of the seven veils. They have each learnt that to keep the people subservient whilst these ungodly groups are securing their powerbase is to support each other. Sometimes this isn't possible because the people latch on to the irregularities and so power switches to another place whilst the wounds recover. It is outside our capabilities to follow these machinations...but righteousness says...'don't bother'. Instead...follow the accurate teaching of Jesus Christ and separate ourselves from the deceits and mental osccilations that induce poor reasoning.

The Biblical symbols our Lord Jesus gave in His Revelation to His servant John just are not that difficult to grasp. When our Lord pointed back to the beast kingdoms of Daniel 7 at Rev.13:2 to describe the first beast of Rev.13:1, He was giving us a huge clue of what KIND of symbolic beast He intended with that first one, a beast kingdom. It is just not that difficult to understand.

And further, our Lord Jesus gave more information on the meaning of that 1st beast kingdom of Rev.13:1 later on in Rev.17...

Rev 17:15
15 And he saith unto me, The waters which thou sawest, where the whore sitteth, are peoples, and multitudes, and nations, and tongues.
(KJV)

Thus the symbols and metaphors God has put in His Word always... refer to something literal. And in this case, it's about a literal kingdom over the earth to include peoples, multitudes, nations, and tongues.

 

[revturmoil]

The question we are left with is, just which location is that one head of the beast kingdom that suffers the deadly wound and is healed?

That question is answered in "Nebuchadnezzar's yoke of iron!"

 

[veteran]

That question is answered in "Nebuchadnezzar's yoke of iron!"

That would suggest that the 'geographical' area of Babylon in today's Iraq is the Babylon harlot of Rev.17 & 18. It is not, and is probably another reason why the world powers ended Sadam's rule in Iraq, since he was trying to rebuild the geographical city of Babylon.

The Babylon harlot "great city" of Revelation is... today's Jerusalem.

Today's Jerusalem is where God's two witnesses are prophesied to come to prophesy against it...

Rev 11:7-8
7 And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.
8 And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
(KJV)

Per Zechariah 14 and Acts 1, Christ's return to this earth is specifically TO... the Mount of Olives in Jerusalem.

Rev 11:13-15
13 And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
14 The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.
(KJV)

The place on earth Christ Jesus pointed to with the slaying of God's prophets is... Jerusalem...

Rev 18:23-24
23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
24 And in her was found the blood of prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.
(KJV)


Matt 23:37-38
37 O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!
38 Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.
(KJV)

1Thes 2:14-15
14 For ye, brethren, became followers of the churches of God which in Judaea are in Christ Jesus: for ye also have suffered like things of your own countrymen, even as they have of the Jews:
15 Who both killed the Lord Jesus, and their own prophets, and have persecuted us; and they please not God, and are contrary to all men:
(KJV)

 

[BibleScribe]

...

This further reveals that the seven heads (seven mountains) are specific areas upon the earth, and not just one single location. The one head that suffers the deadly wound is one specific location separate from the other six.
...

Scripture suggests seven "entities", not "areas". Thus your errant tangent.


BibleScribe





To All,

Please consider that when taking into account the seven, one must also account for the eighth.


But in considering the seven, certainly the one which is depicted in Ezekiel 37 and Daniel 11:40-44 is the one which shall be mortally wounded.

BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

The "seven heads" represent "seven mountains" we are told by Christ.

Rev 17:9
9 And here is the mind which hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth.
(KJV)

The mountains symbol in God's Word is used to refer to 'areas' of power, like Ezek.35:2; Jer.51:25; Isaiah 2:2. The "seven heads" system of Rev.13:1 and Rev.17:9 is contrasted to the "seven heads" system of Rev.12:3-4 which existed with Satan's original rebellion of old, when he drew a third of the angels (stars) in rebellion with him against God. Thus the "seven mountains" idea is separate from the idea of seven kings given in the next verse...

Rev 17:10-11
10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.
11 And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition.
(KJV)

The given seven kings there are NOT contemporary with each other (means they do not exist at the same time). John is shown that five of them have already... fallen, one was in existence in his day, and the 7th was not yet.

Those fallen kings represent the kings over the beast kingdoms of old involving God's people, the first being the kingdom of Egypt. The others were Assyria, Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Macedonian. The 6th that was existing in John's day represented the Roman empire. The 7th was not yet, and still not yet today.

The particular king 'beast' that is mentioned being 'of the seven', and being the eighth and going into perdition (perish) represents Satan himself.

Since that 8 king prophecy is given with non-concurrent reigning kings, it cannot apply back to the "seven mountains", but the next verses must be regarded in explaining the kings over the "seven mountains" or areas of power of the coming beast kingdom.

Rev 17:12-13
12 And the ten horns which thou sawest are ten kings, which have received no kingdom as yet; but receive power as kings one hour with the beast.
13 These have one mind, and shall give their power and strength unto the beast.
(KJV)

The "ten horns" represent 10 kings, and they DO reign concurrent with each other at the same time. But not until... the 7th beast king arrives, and they will give their power to him.

Daniel 7, where Christ was pulling from for this beast kingdom, and beast king explanation, prophesied that among the ten horns (ten kings) a "little horn" would arise, and subdue 3 of the ten horns (ten kings). When that is done, it will leave 7 kings out of those 10, and it's those 7 kings that will sit upon the "seven mountains" representing 7 seats of power upon the earth.

Upon one of the seven mountains, or seats of power, is to suffer a 'deadly wound' and be healed.

Since the prophecy in Daniel 9 & 11 points to a "vile person" making a "league" in Jerusalem with a "small people" for a period of "one week" (7 years), I think that represent the 'false prophet' coming first that Christ mentioned as pseudoprophetes in Matt.24:24. In the middle of that "one week", sacrifices are ended by one coming that places the abomination idol that makes the temple desolate, and begins the false idol worship to the "image of the beast" mentioned towards the end of Rev.13, and the start of the mark of the beast. Christ Jesus mentioned a false Christ coming in the Matt.24:24 verse also, with pseudochristos.

That suggests that the 'false prophet' comes to Jerusalem first to make the 7 years peace pact ("league" of Dan.11) for Jerusalem, and then that peace suffers a 'deadly wound' in the midst of that 7 years, and then with the pseudochristos coming to heal it and setup idol worship within that same midst of the week time period.

 

[revturmoil]

I sure would like to know how you come up with a peace treaty!

OH! I know how! The mentors you listen to are the big shot prophecy experts who can't get any of this right in the first place!

Show me a peace treaty between the man of sin and Israel and I'l debunk your 'beliefs' once again!

 

[BibleScribe]

...
That suggests that the 'false prophet' comes to Jerusalem first to make the 7 years peace pact ("league" of Dan.11) for Jerusalem, and then that peace suffers a 'deadly wound' ...

LOLOL,

I was going to address the disconnects in your post, but they're so many, I thought I simply address your last statement.


Wow, where to begin.

Ok, first of all, the false prophet does not make a "peace pact" with anyone.
Secondly, the "Peace Accord" which lasts seven years has already been performed.
Thirdly, if a "peace pact" is the mortally wounded head, (Ref. Rev. 13:3), then what about the other SIX heads? Are they six more "peace pacts" which are signed with -- what -- other nations?




To All,

Doctrines don't have to be logical. They simply have to be followed. Take for example the insistence by many that "Jesus is fully GOD". Scripture says GOD cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted.

And so too, where one dogma might assert a ~fulfillment~ for the mortally wounded head, -- they have absolutely no provision for the other six heads.

It's the difference between relationship and religion. One says "come let us reason", but the other demands blind obedience.



BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

LOLOL,

I was going to address the disconnects in your post, but they're so many, I thought I simply address your last statement.


Wow, where to begin.

Ok, first of all, the false prophet does not make a "peace pact" with anyone.
Secondly, the "Peace Accord" which lasts seven years has already been performed.
Thirdly, if a "peace pact" is the mortally wounded head, (Ref. Rev. 13:3), then what about the other SIX heads? Are they six more "peace pacts" which are signed with -- what -- other nations?




To All,

Doctrines don't have to be logical. They simply have to be followed. Take for example the insistence by many that "Jesus is fully GOD". Scripture says GOD cannot be tempted, but Jesus was tempted.

And so too, where one dogma might assert a ~fulfillment~ for the mortally wounded head, -- they have absolutely no provision for the other six heads.

It's the difference between relationship and religion. One says "come let us reason", but the other demands blind obedience.



BibleScribe

but your logic isn't relally following the Scripture.

The Dan.9 & 11 chapters reveal a "league" made by the one called a "vile person", and it's for "one week" per Dan.9:27, which is symbolic of seven years per the 70 weeks prophecy Daniel was given.

That's why Apostle Paul said this about the end...

1Thes 5:3
3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
(KJV)

So, TO ALL:

Don't be deceived by false prophet slanderers who have NO intention of heeding those Scriptures as written.

No matter what Scripture you point to that's clearly written about what that "vile person" does in Dan.11:21-31, they are going to deny it, because 'their' false agenda demands... that they deny it. Why mostly? Because most of those in denial are involved with Jewry and their plans for Jerusalem.

 

[BibleScribe]

......

...
The Dan.9 & 11 chapters reveal a "league" made by the one called a "vile person", and it's for "one week" per Dan.9:27, ...

LOL, you have absolutely no clue as to either Daniel Chapter 9 or Chapter 11. If you did, then you would have already provided* a precedent for the "violence" you do to 9:25:


ERRANT TRANSLATION (KJV):
[sup]25[/sup]Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


CORRECT TRANSLATION (ESV):
[sup]25[/sup] Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.


... for which Newton observed:

We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation.



Certainly it is well within conventions to number a ~ dozen and a half; ~a mile and a quarter; ~ four score and ten; ~ one thousand, four hundred, twenty, and five; but is a hammer priced at ~ $3 plus $19, plus tax?


So before you start with the conclusion, I'd most strongly suggest you start at the beginning of the Chapters, and ARRIVE to the conclusion.



* Please note that I have requested that veteran, (or any other presenter with that view) provide a precedent for summing the seven and the sixty two as though they were one number, -- for which Newton correctly observed is "violence" to scripture, and that if that were GOD's intent, HE would have simply said sixty-nine.

BibleScribe




To All,

Veteran's advise is most appropriate: DO NOT be deceived by false prophet slanderers (probably a reference to "kaoticprophet"), and those who have NO intention of heeding Scripture as written, (and of course which History has fulfilled, -- as appropriate).


BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

......



LOL, you have absolutely no clue as to either Daniel Chapter 9 or Chapter 11. If you did, then you would have already provided* a precedent for the "violence" you do to 9:25:


ERRANT TRANSLATION (KJV):
[sup]25[/sup]Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.


CORRECT TRANSLATION (ESV):
[sup]25[/sup] Know therefore and understand that from the going out of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time.


... for which Newton observed:

We avoid also the doing violence to the language of Daniel, by taking the seven weeks and sixty two weeks for one number. Had that been Daniel’s meaning, he would have said sixty and nine weeks, and not seven weeks and sixty two weeks, a way of numbring used by no nation.



Certainly it is well within conventions to number a ~ dozen and a half; ~a mile and a quarter; ~ four score and ten; ~ one thousand, four hundred, twenty, and five; but is a hammer priced at ~ $3 plus $19, plus tax?


So before you start with the conclusion, I'd most strongly suggest you start at the beginning of the Chapters, and ARRIVE to the conclusion.



* Please note that I have requested that veteran, (or any other presenter with that view) provide a precedent for summing the seven and the sixty two as though they were one number, -- for which Newton correctly observed is "violence" to scripture, and that if that were GOD's intent, HE would have simply said sixty-nine.

BibleScribe




To All,

Veteran's advise is most appropriate: DO NOT be deceived by false prophet slanderers (probably a reference to "kaoticprophet"), and those who have NO intention of heeding Scripture as written, (and of course which History has fulfilled, -- as appropriate).


BibleScribe

You keep trying to use slander to argue your points, WITHOUT actually covering the CONTEXT of the Scripture, and instead rely on Isaac Newton's personal views about the Daniel passage. Newton was good with natural physics, but that's as far as I'd rely on his understanding. Kiel and Delitzsch do nothing but confuse the passages.


Daniel 9:2 SPECIFICALLY mentions God's prophecy He gave to JEREMIAH about Judah's 70 years captivity to Babylon! It's a simple Scripture to understand. NOWHERE is that pointing to the later 70 weeks prophecy Daniel was given as being also 70 years. The ONLY link is with the number 70. And it's clear by the CONTEXT of Dan.24-27 a DIFFERENT prophecy is being given to Daniel separate from what God told Jeremiah about the 'destruction' of Jerusalem and Israel's captivity to Babylon. Instead, Daniel is being given a prophecy about the restoration of Jerusalem and the sanctuary, and the end of this world about the coming false one, and the restoration of Israel as a full... kingdom again like in days of old (which is still not yet today).


Dan 9:24-26
24 Seventy weeks (shabuwa') are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.

Hebrew shabua, whether one translates it as 'sevens', or as 'weeks', it means the SAME THING. It WILL NOT change the counting in Daniel 9.

Seventy 'sevens' is the same count as 'seventy weeks'!!! what equals 'seventy sevens'??? The number 490!!! That's what one gets when they multiply 70 x 7.

So the number 490 MUST BE INCLUDED IN PROPER INTERPRETATION OF THE PROPHECY? YES!



25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.

One Bible version I know of that renders that verse differently is the Revised Standard Version (RSV)...

Dan 9:25-26
25 Know therefore and understand that from the going forth of the word to restore and build Jerusalem to the coming of an anointed one, a prince, there shall be seven weeks. Then for sixty-two weeks it shall be built again with squares and moat, but in a troubled time. 26 And after the sixty-two weeks, an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing; and the people of the prince who is to come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary. Its end shall come with a flood, and to the end there shall be war; desolations are decreed.
RSV

Notice the 26th verse EXPLAINS HOW THE PREVIOUS VERSE SIXTY-TWO WEEKS IS TO BE FIGURED.

After 62 weeks an anointed one shall be cut off, and shall have nothing. That was about Christ's crucifixion, plain and simple.

Then all one need do is go back 62 weeks (62 x 7 = 434 years) from Christ's crucifixion to the "seven weeks" period (49 years). And then from that to the command to restore (first declared through Cyrus, then Darius, then Artaxerxes).

So whether one translates that like Newton says, IT STILL IS ABOUT 3 SEPARATE PERIODS OF WEEKS (seven sevens, then sixty-two sevens, then one seven). That's what the Massorah mark does in that separating, divides the periods, but not the running count of 70 sevens given in v.24 (490 years).

And with the Dan.9:26 verse giving MORE DETAIL about the 62 weeks period involving Messiah, it makes the previous seven weeks clear about the command to restore back in Ezra's days when the count started. And what kind of trouble happened in Ezra and Nehemiah's days when trying to restore the temple and wall? Foreigners in the land worked against it at every turn.


So this KJV translation is very correct...IN CONTEXT...

26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
(KJV)

 

[BibleScribe]

You keep trying to use slander to argue your points, WITHOUT actually covering the CONTEXT of the Scripture, and instead rely on Isaac Newton's personal views about the Daniel passage. Newton was good with natural physics, but that's as far as I'd rely on his understanding. Kiel and Delitzsch do nothing but confuse the passages.
...

Ummmmmm, I hate to have to provide the dictionary definition of "slander" for you. Please look it up, before using that term again in this context.

Secondly, you provide the conclusion for Daniel 9:2, but not the analysis. If you were to provide the analysis, you'd find the following:



Daniel 9:2

English Standard Version (ESV)
[sup]2[/sup]in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.


Point #1

In this verse the word "perceived" is not the word "shama", which is a simple reading of a given text. Instead, Daneil used the word "biyn", which is a superior discernment, and is the same word that GOD used to depict the wisdom that HE gave Solomon, such that no man should have greater "biyn" than Solomon. (Ref. 1 Kings 3:11 - 12)

So if your expectation is that Daniel simply read the book of Jeremiah, Chapter 25:11-12, to discover that seventy years are decreed, then you miss the "books" in which Solomon wisdom is used to confirm these "years".

Please find the "books" which Daniel discovered that reveals that confirmation. Note: In these "books", according to Young*, you should find the "going forth of the the word to establish and rebuild Jerusalem". (You might want to consider Psalms 24:7 - 10.) You should also find this guidance is not ancient, but modern, in compliance with Daniel 12:4 & 9.

* "This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God". Daniel, The Key To Prophetic Revelation, p. 226



Psalms 24
[sup]7[/sup] Lift up your heads, you gates;
be lifted up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
[sup]8[/sup] Who is this King of glory?
The LORD strong and mighty,
the LORD mighty in battle.
[sup]9[/sup] Lift up your heads, you gates;
lift them up, you ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
[sup]10[/sup] Who is he, this King of glory?
The LORD Almighty—
he is the King of glory.

Note: This entire Chapter is prophetic for the calling of the Jews to become a nation again, but I've excerpted the "going forth of the word" for your specific attention.


As such, if this indeed is the calling of the Jews to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, then I would think that those historically cast down "doors" are indeed "ancient", and the era for this prophecy is indeed 24 years prior to 1948. Equally, if GOD provides a double statement, it's significance is approximate to a logarithmic scale, which is 10x the value of a single statement. Thus this is a VERY important decree.



When you digest this first point for this second verse, I'll present a second point.


BibleSribe


PS It is a function of human nature to ascribe to others which that individual is guilty of. As such, where you accuse me of slander, -- it was your Post #10 which is guilty of that practice. LOLOLOL

 

[veteran]

Secondly, you provide the conclusion for Daniel 9:2, but not the analysis. If you were to provide the analysis, you'd find the following:

Daniel 9:2

English Standard Version (ESV)
[sup]2[/sup]in the first year of his reign, I, Daniel, perceived in the books the number of years that, according to the word of the LORD to Jeremiah the prophet, must pass before the end of the desolations of Jerusalem, namely, seventy years.


Point #1

In this verse the word "perceived" is not the word "shama", which is a simple reading of a given text. Instead, Daneil used the word "biyn", which is a superior discernment, and is the same word that GOD used to depict the wisdom that HE gave Solomon, such that no man should have greater "biyn" than Solomon. (Ref. 1 Kings 3:11 - 12)

So if your expectation is that Daniel simply read the book of Jeremiah, Chapter 25:11-12, to discover that seventy years are decreed, then you miss the "books" in which Solomon wisdom is used to confirm these "years".

Please find the "books" which Daniel discovered that reveals that confirmation. Note: In these "books", according to Young*, you should find the "going forth of the the word to establish and rebuild Jerusalem". (You might want to consider Psalms 24:7 - 10.) You should also find this guidance is not ancient, but modern, in compliance with Daniel 12:4 & 9.

That idea is totally bogus, because of the following part in bold, and especially the underlined part below...

Dan 9:2
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood by books the number of the years, whereof the word of the LORD came to Jeremiah the prophet, that He would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem.
(KJV)

That idea you've gotten from others like Young pointing to "books" denies its connection Daniel points SPECIFICALLY to with the prophet Jeremiah's writings.

And just WHAT prophecy did Daniel refer to there from the writings of Jeremiah? The part that God would accomplish seventy years in the desolations of Jerusalem, which of course, was historically about the very 70 years captivity to Babylon that Daniel was in at that time, along with the house of Judah.

The Psalms 24 chapter is about Christ's future Millennium Kingdom, not the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the temple in Ezra's days, nor Israel becoming a nation again in 1948. You've missed that Dan.9:24 gives the idea of anointing the Most Holy at the very end, not the start of the 70 weeks, and not in the middle either.

As such, if this indeed is the calling of the Jews to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, then I would think that those historically cast down "doors" are indeed "ancient", and the era for this prophecy is indeed 24 years prior to 1948. Equally, if GOD provides a double statement, it's significance is approximate to a logarithmic scale, which is 10x the value of a single statement. Thus this is a VERY important decree.

A totally BOGUS IDEA that is, completely... away from the Scripture CONTEXT of Daniel 9, and history for that matter.

But I can fathom how orthodox Jewry today would want that to very much be true! By that they could falsely proclaim the Israel of today established in 1948 as God's Kingdom (which they do), with only needing another Temple to be rebuilt!!! WRONG!


That false idea from just the word for "books" in Dan.9:2 has caused you to do a magic carpet ride into one of the grandest non-Scriptural SPECULATIONS that I have ever heard.

 

[BibleScribe]

...
... one of the grandest non-Scriptural SPECULATIONS that I have ever heard.

Wonderful. Now all you have to do is either validate or invalidate the evidence presented. Unfortunately, I don't believe you're interested in performing ANY assessment, whether valid or invalid. So you're stuck in your ignorance on this subject.



BibleScribe




To All,

Either Scripture can be tested, or it can't. And where I believe that GOD provides not only the information, but HE also provides confirmation. And when evaluating this Daniel 9:2, I believe that both the scholars and Scripture (including Daniel, Jeremiah, AND THE PSALMS) agree. Furthermore, the second part of the verse, the "years", also agrees with the Prophetic Psalms concept. And of course, where the "years" is defined, so too another indefinite duration (per Young, Keit, & Kliefoth) is defined which is NOT a week, but some other span which must be determined on other grounds.

But because vain individuals would rather lie than admit they have no answer, you're stuck with their best, albeit incorrect, response. Fortunately GOD does provide a correct answer, -- the one which is "shut up and sealed until the time of the end". (Ref. Daniel 12:4 & 9)



BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

Wonderful. Now all you have to do is either validate or invalidate the evidence presented. Unfortunately, I don't believe you're interested in performing ANY assessment, whether valid or invalid. So you're stuck in your ignorance on this subject.



BibleScribe

It's actually YOU that is not interested in evaluating the Scripture as a whole, but would rather take that one word for "books" and go off on a tangent with it just because Newton shows there's a small difference with the Hebrew of the three periods.

Well, Newton was no prophet, for other Bible scholars were well aware of the Hebrew distinctions too, but they came to common sense and understood the prophecy as a whole, just like the KJV translators did.

And the biggest evidence of what proves those you've listened to wrong about the Dan.9:2 verse, is how the Hebrew is very accurate in pointing to exactly what Daniel was studying, the writings of Jeremiah about God's prophecy to Jeremiah concerning the destruction of Jerusalem by the king of Babylon and taking the house of Judah captive to Babylon for 70 years!


Dan 9:2
2 In the first year of his reign I Daniel understood (biyn) by books (bac paariym) the number of (micpar) the years (hashaaniym), whereof (sher haayah) the word of (d bar) the LORD (Yahaveh) came to (el) Jeremiah (Yirmiyaah) the prophet (hanaabiy), that He would accomplish (I malo wt) seventy (shib iym) years (shaanaah) in the desolations of (I chaar bowt) Jerusalem (Yruwshaalim).
(KJV)

Hebrew biyn for "understood" means to perceive or discern, to understand, to know, to observe, insight, to consider, etc. It is a VERY COMMON HEBREW WORD used in many, many OT Scriptures about the simple act of understanding.

 

[BibleScribe]

It's actually YOU that is not interested in evaluating the Scripture as a whole,

I'm not sure why you disregard the specifics of the literal text, and run to a conclusion which neither Scripture nor History support. Are you really that much smarter than both the AUTHOR and those who grasp the mysteries of the text, -- and are even willing to admit that they cannot solve those same mysteries?

-- Please note that it takes GREAT COURAGE to admit the limitations of one's abilities. --


But of course this same inability confirms that these fulfillments are indeed hidden as dictated by Daniel 12:4 & 9, "the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end". And it's not just one individual who has such reservations for this Chapter which you so clearly see. In fact it's virtually every reputable scholar, including Young, Keit, Kliefoth, Montgomery, Newton, and the "great chronographers" (per Walvoord), -- and this is by no means an inclusive citation.

And to clarify, where Scripture demands and end-time fulfillment, your version of Scripture has the fulfillment starting approximately 50 years after the words were recorded in ~530 B.C. and per you ~fulfilled in ~483 B.C.



Please feel free to keep your opinions. Everyone has the right to be wrong.

BibleScribe





To All,

Where "veteran" makes his assertions regarding "shama" (simple understanding) versus "biyn" a Solomon level of wisdom, -- all one has to do is read 1 Kings 3:11-12, to see that Solomon asked for the simple "shama" so that he could understand the needs of the peoples. But because Solomon didn't ask for riches, GOD said he'd give his request and provide such "biyn" wisdom so that none before him or after him shall have such wisdom.

So if GOD really did give Daniel "biyn" discernment regarding the "books" of the bible to interpret the seventy "years", then does the Prophetic Psalms, (19th book of the bible, prophetic chapter for year, -- such that book 19, chapter 44 prophesies the Holocaust; or book 19 chapter 48 prophesies the nation of Israel: etc) actually provide the GOD dictated "going forth of the word" in Psalms 24?



Psalm 24

English Standard Version (ESV)

[sup]1[/sup] The earth is the LORD’s and the fullness thereof,[sup][[/sup][sup]a[/sup][sup]][/sup]
the world and those who dwell therein,
[sup]2[/sup]for he has founded it upon the seas
and established it upon the rivers.
[sup]3[/sup] Who shall ascend the hill of the LORD?
And who shall stand in his holy place?
[sup]4[/sup] He who has clean hands and a pure heart,
who does not lift up his soul to what is false
and does not swear deceitfully.
[sup]5[/sup]He will receive blessing from the LORD
and righteousness from the God of his salvation.
[sup]6[/sup]Such is the generation of those who seek him,
who seek the face of the God of Jacob.[sup][[/sup][sup]b[/sup][sup]][/sup]
Selah
[sup]7[/sup] Lift up your heads, O gates!
And be lifted up, O ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
[sup]8[/sup]Who is this King of glory?
The LORD, strong and mighty,
the LORD, mighty in battle!
[sup]9[/sup]Lift up your heads, O gates!
And lift them up, O ancient doors,
that the King of glory may come in.
[sup]10[/sup]Who is this King of glory?
The LORD of hosts,
he is the King of glory!
Selah



BibleScribe

 

[veteran]

I'm not sure why you disregard the specifics of the literal text, and run to a conclusion which neither Scripture nor History support. Are you really that much smarter than both the AUTHOR and those who grasp the mysteries of the text, -- and are even willing to admit that they cannot solve those same mysteries?

-- Please note that it takes GREAT COURAGE to admit the limitations of one's abilities. --

I have a feeling that statement is going to come back and haunt you someday.

You reveal exactly how someone like Apostle Paul before Christ converted him could be so wrapped up in the "Jew's religion" while having been brought up by one of the best Hebrew scholars of his day (Gamaliel). Saul obviously lacked an important part of the ability to rightly interpret Scripture, called The Holy Spirit.

 

[BibleScribe]

I have a feeling that statement is going to come back and haunt you someday.

It doesn't take a genius to find something wrong. Any number of motorists might get in their car one morning, and say, ~that's a new noise, it doesn't sound good, and I need to take my car to a mechanic.

Thus where the prophecies of Daniel are "shut up and sealed until the time of the end", -- who's the idiot that assigns fulfillments in ~483 B. C.? Furthermore, who's the second idiot that believes the first idiot?


So back to finding something wrong, -- if the experts have no clue as to a given solution to the text, maybe it's because the Technical Bulletin with newly designed part hasn't reached them yet. Maybe if they wait until ~1948, the answer (by modern history) will be provided.

But in the meantime, ill advised/dishonest "mechanics" will assure their customers that THEY have the solution, just trust your car and pocket book to them.



BibleScribe




To All,

I would propose that the specifics of the Daniel 9 text are clear, (as substantiated by modern history). I would equally propose that the sequence of world empires has been completed, and we can understand the "deadly wound". I would also suggest that we are given SIGNIFICANT insight into the forthcoming tribulation era, even to the season.

And finally, I would suggest that GOD provides this information for HIS children, -- if they simply seek HIM either in revelation, or in confirmation.


1 Cor 14:29
[sup]29[/sup] Let two or three prophets speak, and let the others judge.



BibleScribe