Understanding The Great Trib

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Davy

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Ever read Hal Lindsay's books, like The Late Great Planet Earth? What about Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series?

One of the main features in those works is about the "great tribulation" time that Lord Jesus foretold His Church about. Famines, earthquakes, wars, etc., are stressed as a sign that the tribulation has arrived! Problem is though, that's not really what God's Word teaches how the great tribulation will be like.

Matt 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

KJV

There's the nation rising against nation, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes. Lord Jesus said that was the "beginning of sorrows", and in verse 6 that the "end is not yet" as long as wars and rumors of war are going on. Those things are supposed to be happening JUST PRIOR TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION START.

So all those books by Hal Lindsay and LaHaye about death and destruction during great tribulation are all for nought. Those things have already been happening today, and will be at their height just prior to the start of the great trib. But those things are NOT what the great trib is actually about.

What then marks the start of the great tribulation that Lord Jesus showed us?

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

KJV

When we see that "abomination of desolation" idol setup in the holy place of a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem, signaling the start of the pseudo-Christ proclaiming himself in place of God, and deceiving the whole world in worshiping him, THAT... signals the start of the great tribulation time of the 'end'.

The deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" in that time according to Apostle Paul (1 Thessalonians 5). Chicken in every pot for the deceived, as they will believe that false one is indeed Messiah having come.

So who is the tribulation upon then? It is upon those who stand in Jesus Christ in that time, remaining faithful waiting for Jesus' return after those events.

The whole world that will be deceived will hate us for not believing on that pseudo-Christ who will work great signs and miracles (Matthew 24:23-26; Revelation 13:11 forward). There won't be any wars, because the pseudo-Christ will be in power over the whole earth for that GT time (Revelation 13:4-8). The deceived will believe that God has truly come, and he will use peace to spiritually destroy the souls of many (Daniel 8).
 
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Truth7t7

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Ever read Hal Lindsay's books, like The Late Great Planet Earth? What about Tim LaHaye's Left Behind series?

One of the main features in those works is about the "great tribulation" time that Lord Jesus foretold His Church about. Famines, earthquakes, wars, etc., are stressed as a sign that the tribulation has arrived! Problem is though, that's not really what God's Word teaches how the great tribulation will be like.

Matt 24:6-8
6 And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet.

7 For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: and there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places.
8 All these are the beginning of sorrows.

KJV

There's the nation rising against nation, famines, pestilences, and earthquakes. Lord Jesus said that was the "beginning of sorrows", and in verse 6 that the "end is not yet" as long as wars and rumors of war are going on. Those things are supposed to be happened JUST PRIOR TO THE GREAT TRIBULATION START.

So all those books by Hal Lindsay and LaHaye about death and destruction during great tribulation are all for nought. Those things have already been happening today, and will be at their height just prior to the start of the great trib. But those things are NOT what the great trib are actually about.

What then marks the start of the great tribulation that Lord Jesus showed us?

Matt 24:15-21
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:)

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
17 Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house:
18 Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes.
19 And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days!
20 But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day:
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.

KJV

When we see that "abomination of desolation" idol setup in the holy place of a rebuilt Jewish temple in Jerusalem, signaling the start of the pseudo-Christ proclaiming himself in place of God, and deceiving the whole world in worshiping him, THAT... signals the start of the great tribulation time of the 'end'.

The deceived will be saying, "Peace and safety" in that time according to Apostle Paul (1 Thessalonians 5). Chicken in every pot for the deceived, as they will believe that false one is indeed Messiah having come.

So who is the tribulation upon then? It is upon those who stand in Jesus Christ in that time, remaining faithful waiting for Jesus' return after those events. The whole world that will be deceived will hate us for not believing on that pseudo-Christ who will works great signs and miracles. There won't be any wars, because the pseudo-Christ will be in power over the whole earth for that GT time. The deceived will believe that God has truly come, and he will use peace to spiritually destroy the souls of many.
The Great Tribulation Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Sealed Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.


Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6KJV
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

The plagues brought by the "Two Witnesses" below, a replay of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.
 
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nenagana

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(Great Tribulation History)
DANIEL 5:18 O thou king, the most high God gave Nebuchadnezzar thy father a kingdom, and majesty, and glory, and honour:
DANIEL 5:21 And he was driven from the sons of men; and his heart was made like the beasts, and his dwelling [was] with the wild asses: they fed him with grass like oxen, and his body was wet with the dew of heaven; till he knew that the most high God ruled in the kingdom of men, and [that] he appointeth over it whomsoever he will.
JEREMIAH 34:14 At the end of seven years let ye go every man his brother an Hebrew, which hath been sold unto thee; and when he hath served thee six years, thou shalt let him go free from thee: but your fathers hearkened not unto me, neither inclined their ear.
JEREMIAH 34:21 And Zedekiah king of Judah and his princes will I give into the hand of their enemies, and into the hand of them that seek their life, and into the hand of the king of Babylon's army, which are gone up from you.
JEREMIAH 34:22 Behold, I will command, saith the LORD, and cause them to return to this city; and they shall fight against it, and take it, and burn it with fire: and I will make the cities of Judah a desolation without an inhabitant.
...............
...............
The King of Babylon recieves the "Mark of the Beast", and it is at this time, the jewish people are cast out of babylon, and when the jewish people are cast out of babylon, they take with them babylonian slaves, and that is how they returned to jerusalem (but the issue of the "Great Tribulation" is the Mark of the Beast, and the, issue of dead flesh) (euthanasia of the jews).

(if we don't have the "mark of the beast", then we don't have, "great tribulation", the jews are not driven out of jerusalem by god, or driven out by god)
...............
...............
1. Jesus Rides the Donkey (a picture of "joseph" or jesus as New Spirit)
2. Mark of the Beast is Given or Revealed (Apostles and Controversy of the Dish/Pyramid Builder and their Soulmates/that what god generally uses in the new testament, for generational decay/field decay, with the body (corrective and blessing argument)
3. Jesus Drives the Jewish People out of the Temple (earth energy grid argument, reveals the genetic decay dead flesh argument)
...............
...............
Theory (neither has happened)
Pre-Tribulation = God resolves the "Son of Man" as an example
(the son of man is principal argument, but also "pyramid builders" in general, but the earth's dirth charge, sin, predatory behavior or simply adversity, largely isolates this to when god resolves the son of man, this is true for most of the new testament)
Great Tribulation = God acts in some way with the Earth/Universe (earth energy grid controversy, of jews/minorities spread around to suppress the field, and the sudden death in particular areas as a result of uncleanness, generational and there is no hope for many, and by consequences of those factors on mass of populations)

1. God took action with the Son of Man (baby jesus)
2. God revealed and gave the "mark of the beast" (three wise men)
3. Diaspora of the Jewish people/dead flesh (euthanasia in jerusalem at that time, earth field argument)
..................
..................
(humanity is more sinful and unprofitable, this is the benefit of god not giving out the mark of the beast or resolving the son of man, dead or alive, there is time for things to develop into rabies.............god's mercies are good and will benefit a lot of people, but the bottom line is this earth and its dead flesh controversy, soon perhaps next year)
 
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Davy

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Again, the "great tribulation" event will be upon Christ's faithful elect who refuse to take the mark of the beast, and refuse to bow to the "image of the beast" that the coming false Messiah will setup for the end.

Those in Christ who think Lord Jesus is going to spare us from that time by physical escape are deluded, and go directly opposite of what He said...

Matt 24:21-26
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.
24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.
25 Behold, I have told you before.
26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV


So men's short leaven doctrine outlines are useless if they do not keep to what is written in God's Word. One can load up on those short outlines and fool many, but not those who stay in God's Word as written!

Matt 24:9
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.

KJV

That hatred against Christians today is already fast approaching that time when all nations will hate us. Some of us are to be killed for Christ per that. The 5th Seal of Revelation 6 is specifically about that, as is Revelation 12:7-17 about the end of this world.

Rev 12:9-11
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, "Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night."
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

KJV

This is even why Lord Jesus showed in Luke 17 that those who seek to save... their lives (their physical flesh), shall lose it.

But those who lose their life (for His sake) will have His Salvation of eternal life...

Luke 17:31-37
31 In that day, he which shall be upon the housetop, and his stuff in the house, let him not come down to take it away: and he that is in the field, let him likewise not return back.
32 Remember Lot's wife.
33 Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it.

34 I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left.
35 Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
36 Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
37 And they answered and said unto Him, "Where, Lord?" And He said unto them, "Wheresoever the body is, thither will the eagles be gathered together."
KJV


The Pre-tribulational doctrine tries to use that Scripture to point to physical escaping the coming "great tribulation" by being the 1st ones taken. They forget to read Jesus' simple answer to His disciples there about, "Where, Lord?", as they were asking Him where those 1st ones are taken. Jesus' answer is not a positive, but instead points how those 1st ones taken will be to where the fowls are gathered to eat on a dead carcass. The Matthew 24:28 version of His answer actually uses the Greek word for a dead carcase.

Best prepare your minds brethren, because only those who remain a symbolic "chaste virgin", faithfully waiting on our Lord Jesus Christ to come and destroy the Antichrist, will be persecuted by the beast. The "dragon" will already have the deceived in his hand, so they will be no danger to him. The believers who fall away to the fake-Christ, thinking he is Jesus, will be deceived and in shame when Lord Jesus does come afterwards to end the great tribulation.

But those of Christ's elect who wait for Him, will know that fake-Christ who comes first is the devil himself, and that's why the devil will come after us who know that, because God through The Holy Spirit is going to speak against that beast at the end, and the whole world will hear it. That is the real purpose for the cloven tongue in the endtimes.

 
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Wynona

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@Davy

What study tools (if any) do you recommend when studying the Bible?

I hope this isn't too off topic.

 

Truman

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Yeah, I just remembered that yesterday...the temple will have been built for 3 1/2 years before thing get bad...I think. I'm sure we'll find out. This plandemic is a joke. It could always be a lot worse! Yahweh is in control, not the beast from the east.
 

Davy

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@Davy

What study tools (if any) do you recommend when studying the Bible?

I hope this isn't too off topic.

I've been using Bible study software from the company called BibleSoft. It's widely used by a lot of pastors. They have a FREE downloadable version from their website, and it has many Bible study tools.

The minimum study tools I recommend:
1.
a KJV Bible. E.W. Bullinger's KJV study Bible called The Companion Bible is the main Bible version I use, and in my opinion is still the best study Bible in English. Bullinger was a Christian Bible scholar in the late 1800's. But even he had some controversial ideas, and he also held to Darby's secret rapture theory that came out of 1830s Britain. So the Bible student still needs to be careful with some of Bullinger's side margins. Yet, The Companion Bible he put together is still the best KJV study Bible in my opinion. It's worth having it just because of the all Appendixes in the back of it per his research.

The pages are divided into 2 sections, the KJV on one side, and Bullinger's margin notes on the other side. His notes are mostly scholarly research notes, not simply all opinion.

Also one of the things The Companion Bible has that no other study Bible has are some of the Massorah scribe notes in the Old Testament Hebrew translated by Christian David Ginsberg (a Jewish convert to Christianity). The Old Testament scribes created a system for keeping God's written Word in order from generation to generation. The best Hebrew manuscripts had these Massorah scribe notes. The OT manuscripts which the KJV translators used did not have those notes. Those notes give added accuracy to interpretation of many Old Testament passages.

2. A Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
Dr. James Strong took each Bible language manuscript word that the KJV translators used, and assigned a number to it, and gave a definition for each one. It's been a mainstay Bible study tool for pastors for decades. But one needs to be careful, because those who don't like it appear to be trying to defraud it by publishing so-called new-and-improved versions without the original dictionary Lexicons in the back. I recommend a pre-1991 edition if one can find it.

3. The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge.
This is another cross-reference tool. You can select any verse, and then select this tool (in BibleSoft) and it will bring up other verses throughout the whole Bible that relate to that original verse. It is very accurate as to narrowing down the topic at hand, an extremely useful tool.

4. Brown-Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon. I recommend this Hebrew lexicon to look up the meaning of Old Testament names of people and places. In some OT Bible chapters, translation of the names anchors what the real matter is.

For example, in Ezra 8, the Israelite scribe Ezra was viewing the Jews returning to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity. He didn't see any of the sons of Levi returning. Can't have proper old covenant worship without Levite priests from the sons of Levi, so Ezra sent some with Iddo, a chief Nethinim, back to Babylon to get Levite priests. It was a sad situation, because the Nethinims were actually foreigners of the Canaanites appointed by king David as temple servants to the Levite priests. When you translate names of the Levite priests that Iddo chose to bring back, you get the sons of Mahli (which means 'sick'), and Sherebiah (which means 'God has scorched or burned'), and also 220 more Nethinim foreigners for temple service. That shows Iddo's choice of Levites, and his bringing more of his brethren Nethinims back, was biased against Israel. The meaning of the those Levite's names shows that also. But simply reading their transliterated names in English does not show that.

5. Smith's Bible Dictionary. There's several, but I recommend this one as a minimum.

All the above tools (except The Companion Bible) come with BibleSoft's free Bible study software called OneTouch Light (see at biblesoft.com).
 
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Wynona

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I've been using Bible study software from the company called BibleSoft. It's widely used by a lot of pastors. They have a FREE downloadable version from their website, and it has many Bible study tools.

The minimum study tools I recommend:
1.
a KJV Bible. E.W. Bullinger's KJV study Bible called The Companion Bible is the main Bible version I use, and in my opinion is still the best study Bible in English. Bullinger was a Christian Bible scholar in the late 1800's. But even he had some controversial ideas, and he also held to Darby's secret rapture theory that came out of 1830s Britain. So the Bible student still needs to be careful with some of Bullinger's side margins. Yet, The Companion Bible he put together is still the best KJV study Bible in my opinion. It's worth having it just because of the all Appendixes in the back of it per his research.

The pages are divided into 2 sections, the KJV on one side, and Bullinger's margin notes on the other side. His notes are mostly scholarly research notes, not simply all opinion.

Also one of the things The Companion Bible has that no other study Bible has are some of the Massorah scribe notes in the Old Testament Hebrew translated by Christian David Ginsberg (a Jewish convert to Christianity). The Old Testament scribes created a system for keeping God's written Word in order from generation to generation. The best Hebrew manuscripts had these Massorah scribe notes. The OT manuscripts which the KJV translators used did not have those notes. Those notes give added accuracy to interpretation of many Old Testament passages.

2. A Strong's Exhaustive Concordance.
Dr. James Strong took each Bible language manuscript word that the KJV translators used, and assigned a number to it, and gave a definition for each one. It's been a mainstay Bible study tool for pastors for decades. But one needs to be careful, because those who don't like it appear to be trying to defraud it by publishing so-called new-and-improved versions without the original dictionary Lexicons in the back. I recommend a pre-1991 edition if one can find it.

3. The Treasury of Scripture Knowledge.
This is another cross-reference tool. You can select any verse, and then select this tool (in BibleSoft) and it will bring up other verses throughout the whole Bible that relate to that original verse. It is very accurate as to narrowing down the topic at hand, an extremely useful tool.

4. Brown-Driver & Briggs Hebrew Lexicon. I recommend this Hebrew lexicon to look up the meaning of Old Testament names of people and places. In some OT Bible chapters, translation of the names anchors what the real matter is.

For example, in Ezra 8, the Israelite scribe Ezra was viewing the Jews returning to Jerusalem from the Babylon captivity. He didn't see any of the sons of Levi returning. Can't have proper old covenant worship without Levite priests from the sons of Levi, so Ezra sent some with Iddo, a chief Nethinim, back to Babylon to get Levite priests. It was a sad situation, because the Nethinims were actually foreigners of the Canaanites appointed by king David as temple servants to the Levite priests. When you translate names of the Levite priests that Iddo chose to bring back, you get the sons of Mahli (which means 'sick'), and Sherebiah (which means 'God has scorched or burned'), and also 220 more Nethinim foreigners for temple service. That shows Iddo's choice of Levites, and his bringing more of his brethren Nethinims back, was biased against Israel. The meaning of the those Levite's names shows that also. But simply reading their transliterated names in English does not show that.

5. Smith's Bible Dictionary. There's several, but I recommend this one as a minimum.

All the above tools (except The Companion Bible) come with BibleSoft's free Bible study software called OneTouch Light (see at biblesoft.com).

Okay Thank you! I downloaded the software.
 
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teamventure

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The Great Tribulation (which is the second half 3 1/2 years) is God's judgement towards the beast kingdom or those who take the mark.
 

teamventure

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Again, the "great tribulation" event will be upon Christ's faithful elect who refuse to take the mark of the beast, and refuse to bow to the "image of the beast" that the coming false Messiah will setup for the end.

How does that account for the rest of rev?

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.
Revelation 16:1‭-‬2 NIV
 

teamventure

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God's wrath is not for believers, their sins were payed for when the father poured out his wrath on Christ at the cross.
God's wrath is for the wicked unbelieving world.
 
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nenagana

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The Pre-tribulational doctrine tries to use that Scripture to point to physical escaping the coming "great tribulation" by being the 1st ones taken. They forget to read Jesus' simple answer to His disciples there about, "Where, Lord?", as they were asking Him where those 1st ones are taken. Jesus' answer is not a positive, but instead points how those 1st ones taken will be to where the fowls are gathered to eat on a dead carcass. The Matthew 24:28 version of His answer actually uses the Greek word for a dead carcase.

Best prepare your minds brethren, because only those who remain a symbolic "chaste virgin", faithfully waiting on our Lord Jesus Christ to come and destroy the Antichrist, will be persecuted by the beast. The "dragon" will already have the deceived in his hand, so they will be no danger to him. The believers who fall away to the fake-Christ, thinking he is Jesus, will be deceived and in shame when Lord Jesus does come afterwards to end the great tribulation.

But those of Christ's elect who wait for Him, will know that fake-Christ who comes first is the devil himself, and that's why the devil will come after us who know that, because God through The Holy Spirit is going to speak against that beast at the end, and the whole world will hear it. That is the real purpose for the cloven tongue in the endtimes.

Lot "escaped" out of that cesspool in Genesis 18...............then God "touched the earth" (with fire in gen. 18).............God's Action marked the "Great Tribulation", because it was that event that marked Abraham's illustration of the New Covenant, described in Genesis 15.

Lazarus "escaped" out of that cesspool of Jerusalem (notice the comparison to abraham the bible makes)..................God's Action marked the "Great Tribulation" (Jesus in the Garden pouring out the new spirit before the apostles), this event marked the crucifixion, which was an illustration of the New Covenant (new spirit).

(most of the language of the gospel is doubled, it can be exceedingly easy to debunk anything really)

Mankind is more responsible for its "accusation of dead flesh with the gospel's tables, of suicide pleasure with those genetic lines..............MORE ACCOUNTABLE IN THE NEW TESTAMENT AND NOT LESS ACCOUNTABLE................now, you can ask why God did not euthanize Jerusalem that cesspool, like God euthanized Sodom and Gomorrah, because God used that as a parallel, to denote the difference in the new testament................and that is the reason.

When God does a "sin offering" and this is how humanity will die generally, its more valuable for humanity to die dumb and blind without an apparent judgment, because there is already a considerable divide between the individuals god wants to save and the rest of humanity, a generation with zero value. This is the Current Trend.

(dead flesh occupying jerusalem or isreal, in an earth energy grid argument is a controversy, in the "noah's rainbow theory", revelation appears to talk about, but humanity may die without even a formal acknowledgement of this truth) (pre-tribulation, is either god's answer to the son of man or the faithful, its not a formal action with god touching the earth, this appears to be the general pattern)

(Jesus says, NO NO NO NO...........then like most jewish religious material, the name of jesus is simply removed, along with the name messiah or lord, most new age bibles do not have the name jesus/messiah or lord as many times in it as the traditional version, its very simple to understand, what kind of sickness and mental illness fuels those positions)

(the moral of the story is that, the faithful should be grateful, with the development of RABIES, or the outcasting of the jewish people from jerusalem, even if for "pleasure's sake", that argument goes no where, one group of dead flesh will simply replace the other there, its filthy but this is how humanity will die, blind and dumb, believing it has a right to a judgement, and the messiah never returns, but humanity as a whole enjoys more sin and more pleasure)
 
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Davy

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How does that account for the rest of rev?

Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, “Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.” The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly, festering sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped its image.
Revelation 16:1‭-‬2 NIV

You mean you haven't seen the link between those 1-6 vials with the following...

Rev 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto My two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.

4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.

5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.

6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

KJV

Have you not read about the time of Moses and Aaron going to Pharaoh in Egypt, and God causing the plagues against Egypt to let the children of Israel leave?
 

Davy

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God's wrath is not for believers, their sins were poured out on Christ at the cross.
God's wrath is for the wicked unbelieving world.

That's true, so was God's wrath upon the children of Israel while they were in their homes when God visited the plagues upon Egypt?

The "wrath" Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is about the FINAL DAY of God's wrath upon the wicked on the day when Jesus returns to destroy that Wicked one with the brightness of His coming (per 2 Thessalonians 2).

If you're listening to Pre-trib Rapture preachers, they are not telling you the timing Apostle Paul was giving in the start of that 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter. Paul was pointing to the very LAST DAY of this present world, NOT the tribulation.

Just skating all the way to that one 1 Thessalonians 5:9 verse about God's final day of wrath upon the wicked, and not covering the 1 through 8 verses before that, shows... DECEPTION by those Pre-trib Rapture preachers.
 

teamventure

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That's true, so was God's wrath upon the children of Israel while they were in their homes when God visited the plagues upon Egypt?

The "wrath" Apostle Paul was pointing to in 1 Thessalonians 5:9 is about the FINAL DAY of God's wrath upon the wicked on the day when Jesus returns to destroy that Wicked one with the brightness of His coming (per 2 Thessalonians 2).

If you're listening to Pre-trib Rapture preachers, they are not telling you the timing Apostle Paul was giving in the start of that 1 Thessalonians 5 chapter. Paul was pointing to the very LAST DAY of this present world, NOT the tribulation.

Just skating all the way to that one 1 Thessalonians 5:9 verse about God's final day of wrath upon the wicked, and not covering the 1 through 8 verses before that, shows... DECEPTION by those Pre-trib Rapture preachers.

How does the final day (Armageddon)
account for the 7 seal 7 trumpet and 7 vial
Judgements? Those obviously need more time to be fulfilled.
 

Davy

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How does the final day (Armageddon)
account for the 7 seal 7 trumpet and 7 vial
Judgements? Those obviously need more time to be fulfilled.

1. per Revelation 6:14-17, that is the final day of this world with Jesus' 2nd coming. That is when the 7th Vial is poured out upon the wicked on earth. That is why those are saying for the rocks and mountains to fall on them, because the day of His wrath has come.

2. The 7th Trumpet we know for sure is the day of Christ's 2nd coming, because when it blows all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and The Son. That points directly to Jesus' future reign beginning over all nations with the rod of iron.

3. The 7th Vial isn't poured out on earth, if you'll notice. It is poured out in the "air". That's to symbolize the final day of this present world with God's consuming fire burning man's works off this earth per 2 Peter 3:10, and it is called the "day of the Lord" per Peter and Paul. That is the day of Christ's return to gather His Church on that day also, and pour out His wrath upon the wicked on earth, ending this present world.

Many brethren don't realize that many events of the end culminate very quickly on the last day of this present world. Just because lot of those events are spread out when written down in Christ's Revelation doesn't mean they all take a long time to happen. Deeper Bible study in all of God's Word reveals this, and especially the events Lord Jesus and His Apostles revealed for the end.


ALL SAME LAST DAY EVENTS, not necessarily in order:

God's consuming fire event burn's man's works off this earth, and ends this flesh world age (2 Peter 3:10-13).

Everyone alive on earth is suddenly changed, as the heavenly dimension is exposed on the earth (Isaiah 25; 1 Corinthians 15).

Christ's coming in the clouds, all the world sees Him (Rev.1).

Christ brings the asleep saints with Him when He comes (1 Thess.4).

Christ's saints still alive on earth are "caught up" to Him, and them, on the way to Jerusalem on earth (1 Thess.4; Zechariah 14).

The battle of Armageddon happens, His wrath poured out upon the wicked (Rev.16:16-21).

7th Vial poured out into the "air" symbolizes God's consuming fire ending this present world on that day (Rev.16:17).

Beginning of Christ's future Eternal reign, and the "thousand years" reign on earth over the nations with His elect (Rev.20).

Great earthquake of the likes the world has never seen, with Christ return (Rev.11).

God's two witnesses in Jerusalem ascend to Heaven (Rev.11).

7,000 of Christ's enemies are destroyed (Rev.11).
 
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Davy

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How does the final day (Armageddon)
account for the 7 seal 7 trumpet and 7 vial
Judgements? Those obviously need more time to be fulfilled.

Let me try another way to explain that idea.

In our Lord Jesus' Olivet discourse (Matthew 24; Mark 13 especially), He was giving 7 main Signs of events of the end of this world leading up to His return. That is actually the same events His Revelation is about, those same 7 Signs are simply divided into 3 groups, the Seals, Trumpets, and Vials.

This is why... we see the same event of the day His wrath being poured out upon the wicked within those 3 groups of Revelation Signs...

6th Seal
Rev 6:14-17
14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of His wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

KJV


7th Trumpet

Rev 11:18
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV


7th Vial

Rev 16:19-20
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.

20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
KJV


So then, since the 6th Seal and the 7th Vial events are linked with His wrath being poured out, and every island fled away, moved out of their places, then how do know where the 7th Seal fits??

The 7th Seal represents the information about the 7 Vials, but the actual end culminates with Jesus' coming and His wrath on the 6th Seal. By keeping to recognizing the events we won't be confused by that 7th Seal given at the start of the 7 vials.

Furthermore, because Jesus on the 6th Vial is warning His Church that He comes "as a thief", and then He gathers the nations to battle at Armageddon on the 7th Vial, that reveals what? It reveals He doesn't come for His Church until that 7th Vial.
 

Desire Of All Nations

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Again, the "great tribulation" event will be upon Christ's faithful elect who refuse to take the mark of the beast, and refuse to bow to the "image of the beast" that the coming false Messiah will setup for the end.

Those in Christ who think Lord Jesus is going to spare us from that time by physical escape are deluded, and go directly opposite of what He said..
You need to re-study this subject, because your argument ironically disagrees with scripture:

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." - Matt. 24:21-22

In this passage, Christ said unless the Tribulation was shortened, no one would remain alive. Christ clearly prophesied here that the entire human race would be in danger of being exterminated if He didn't return.

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." - Rev. 3:10

This passage alone destroys your argument because Christ (a) promised the Philadelphians protection from the Tribulation and (b) stated that the Tribulation would affect the whole world. The Bible does not teach anywhere that the Tribulation would only affect Christians who refuse the mark. It also doesn't teach that no Christian would be protected in a place of safety during the Tribulation. There is no need for the Philadelphians to be tested in the Tribulation because Christ already commended this particular group in Rev. 3:8 for their loyalty to the truth and His authority.
 
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Davy

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You need to re-study this subject, because your argument ironically disagrees with scripture:

“For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be. And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened." - Matt. 24:21-22

In this passage, Christ said unless the Tribulation was shortened, no one would remain alive. Christ clearly prophesied here that the entire human race would be in danger of being exterminated if He didn't return.

“Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." - Rev. 3:10

This passage alone destroys your argument because Christ (a) promised the Philadelphians protection from the Tribulation and (b) stated that the Tribulation would affect the whole world. The Bible does not teach anywhere that the Tribulation would only affect Christians who refuse the mark. It also doesn't teach that no Christian would be protected in a place of safety during the Tribulation. There is no need for the Philadelphians to be tested in the Tribulation because Christ already commended this particular group in Rev. 3:8 for their loyalty to the truth and His authority.

I see you like only the Scriptures that you can find that agree with you, and disregard the rest, like these...

Luke 21:12-19
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
KJV


How do we reconcile what Lord Jesus said in the above, because in verse 16 He said 'some' of us will be delivered up and be put to death? But in verse 18 He said not a hair of our head will perish. It simply means what it says, that SOME... of us will be delivered up and be put to death. That is revealed within the 5th Seal timing also for the end...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, shoul
d be fulfilled.
KJV

Specifically, that is about those of us that are 'delivered up' to give that Testimony for Christ against the beast. That duty during the coming tribulation will not be upon all of Christ's Church (otherwise there wouldn't be a Church still on earth for Christ to gather when He returns).

John 16:2
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
KJV


Matt 24:9-10
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
KJV


I sense that you hold to men's doctrine of a false Pre-trib Rapture theory. They bypass all the above Scripture evidence about the 'end' that I spoke of.
 

Truth7t7

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I see you like only the Scriptures that you can find that agree with you, and disregard the rest, like these...

Luke 21:12-19
12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for My name's sake.
13 And it shall turn to you for a testimony.
14 Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer:
15 For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist.
16 And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.

17 And ye shall be hated of all men for My name's sake.
18 But there shall not an hair of your head perish.

19 In your patience possess ye your souls.
KJV


How do we reconcile what Lord Jesus said in the above, because in verse 16 He said 'some' of us will be delivered up and be put to death? But in verse 18 He said not a hair of our head will perish. It simply means what it says, that SOME... of us will be delivered up and be put to death. That is revealed within the 5th Seal timing also for the end...

Rev 6:9-11
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, "How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost Thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?"
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them;and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, shoul
d be fulfilled.
KJV

Specifically, that is about those of us that are 'delivered up' to give that Testimony for Christ against the beast. That duty during the coming tribulation will not be upon all of Christ's Church (otherwise there wouldn't be a Church still on earth for Christ to gather when He returns).

John 16:2
2 They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the time cometh, that whosoever killeth you will think that he doeth God service.
KJV


Matt 24:9-10
9 Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for My name's sake.
10 And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another.
KJV


I sense that you hold to men's doctrine of a false Pre-trib Rapture theory. They bypass all the above Scripture evidence about the 'end' that I spoke of.
The Great Trib Will Be Upon The Antichrist And Wicked, The Church Is Protected, Dont Be Deceived

There's Going To Be An End Times Persecution, The Beast And His Kingdom Are The Target Of God's Empowered (Two Witnesses)

The Great Tribulation Will Come Upon The Wicked World, While The (Sealed Church) Is Protected

The (Sealed Church) will be present on earth and protected, when wicked men are tormented 5 months, desiring to die as death flees

All saved believers are (Sealed) by God, Eph 1:13, 4:30

Ephesians 1:13KJV
13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Ephesians 4:30KJV
30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

It Was Commanded, Only Those Without God's Seal Will Be Tormented, The Sealed Church Is Protected

Revelation 9:3-6KJV
3 And there came out of the smoke locusts upon the earth: and unto them was given power, as the scorpions of the earth have power.
4 And it was commanded them that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, neither any green thing, neither any tree; but only those men which have not the seal of God in their foreheads.
5 And to them it was given that they should not kill them, but that they should be tormented five months: and their torment was as the torment of a scorpion, when he striketh a man.
6 And in those days shall men seek death, and shall not find it; and shall desire to die, and death shall flee from them.

Plagues upon The Beast and his Kingdom, a remake of Moses/Aaron against Pharaoh of Egypt

Revelation 11:3-6
3 And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5 And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6 These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.

Revelation 16:1-11KJV
1 And I heard a great voice out of the temple saying to the seven angels, Go your ways, and pour out the vials of the wrath of God upon the earth.
2 And the first went, and poured out his vial upon the earth; and there fell a noisome and grievous sore upon the men which had the mark of the beast, and upon them which worshipped his image.
3 And the second angel poured out his vial upon the sea; and it became as the blood of a dead man: and every living soul died in the sea.
4 And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood.
5 And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus.
6 For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
7 And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.
8 And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire.
9 And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory.
10 And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,
11 And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.