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Featured Understanding the Olivet Discourse

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by Randy Kluth, May 6, 2020.

  1. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    I've spent many years on this, and now that I feel I finally am at peace with it, nobody believes me! My views conform to historic beliefs, and is not my personal brain child. We are not to stand out in a crowd, but to glorify Christ. So this isn't an effort at grandstanding. I just want to help those who are frustrated, as I used to be, and give them the benefit of my experiences.

    The OD is largely focused on the Jewish People and on the 70 AD event, in which the city of Jerusalem and the temple were destroyed by the Roman Army. Jesus warned his Disciples to flee when they saw the "vultures gather." When the pagan Army "stood in the holy place," it was time to pack up quickly and run. If they waited too long, they would have to leave all their things behind!

    Against this backdrop the Disciples asked Jesus about his 2nd Coming. When would the Kingdom come? If the Jewish temple is to be destroyed, how can the Jewish Hope be fulfilled? How can Israel be regathered?

    Jesus' answer was that times and seasons were the domain of God, but that immediate repentance and a turn to righteousness is the answer in all generations. In his particular generation, the Jewish People had fallen away, and would be destroyed in that generation. The fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD would lead to a "great tribulation" of the Jewish People, the "Jewish Diaspora," that would last until the end of the age when he would finally Return.
     
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  2. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    Hi @Randy Kluth Don't you think that the Great Tribulation in Matthew 24 is a unique, future event not known hitherto in the history of the world?
     
  3. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    Hello, brother. Glad to meet you. I just hope you don't confuse my "bold" style, with respect to my beliefs, with antagonism towards anyone. I have many years of Bible Study in my life to contribute. The intention is to offer my views, and not argue it until you agree with it. I also am willing to learn and be corrected myself.

    The Olivet Discourse--Matt 24, Mark 13, and Luke 17;21--are indeed unique, but based squarely, I believe, on Dan 9--the 70 Weeks Prophecy. In that prophecy, Messiah comes in the 70th Week and is "cut off." That ends the 70th Week--right in the middle--and there ensues a time of trouble for the Jews. It begins with the destruction of the "city and the sanctuary" by the Roman Army in 70 AD. And it continues in the form of the Jewish Diaspora throughout the entire NT age.

    How is this for Christians, you might ask? In the Primitive Church, the church was primarily Jewish. When Israel fell to the Romans, Jewish believers suffered the consequences as well. They came to be deprived of their homeland, and they had to live among pagan Gentiles, who persecuted them.

    This model of national trouble for Christians is what Jesus used to apply throughout the NT age to Christians in all nations. All Christians seemingly suffer God's displeasure towards their respective nations. And all Christians suffer a degree of persecution from their pagan hosts.

    You might ask, Isn't this about Jesus' Coming, instead of the Jewish experience in 70 AD? No, the Prophets of the Bible always targeted their immediate audience primarily, to solicit their observance or their repentance. In this case, Jesus was speaking to Jews still under the Law, and he did not diminish the value of the Law while that covenant was still in effect.

    So if you will compare this prophecy with Eze 12, you will see how the Prophet would hold his own generation accountable, and not just speculate and prognosticate about future prophetic details. Even future prophecy had contemporary value. Even prophecy of a future Antichrist in the book of Revelation encourages Christians to watch out for Antichristian deceptions in their own time, and to endure faithfully against that kind of oppression.

    So the Disciples of Jesus were confused by Jesus' claim that the temple would be destroyed. Jesus knew the covenant of Law had been broken by the Jewish People, and the predicted consequences would follow--exile and death.

    But even more, Jesus knew the whole covenant system would be replaced by his better sacrifice--his death for sin on the cross. Leaning on this atonement would provide eternal life, and not just temporary coverage for sin.

    So Jesus emphasized, first of all, the destruction of Jewish exclusivity, since they had proven to be no better than pagan Gentiles. Their legal system, which was exclusive, would be torn down and eradicated.

    But secondly, Jesus indicated that his 2nd Coming would, likewise, be a judgment against unbelievers, and against those who were lawless. Just as he would bring judgment against the immediate Jewish generation so he would come again to bring judgment against all nations, who have opposed both Jew and Christian.

    In other words, this Discourse was not just about the 2nd Coming, but more, about the 1st Coming. But he did compare his 1st Coming with the 2nd Coming, because he was asked to relate them.
     
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  4. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Well you should have come up with your own brain child, since Historicism has been proved to be patently false. In fact, absurd.

    To those who want the truth from Scripture (Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 all combined), here it is, without embellishment:

    THE OLIVET DISCOURSE HARMONIZED

    PART I

    DISCOURSE ON THE MOUNT OF OLIVES
    And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world [the age]? And as he sat upon the mount of Olives over against the temple, Peter and James and John and Andrew asked him privately, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign when all these things shall be fulfilled? And they asked him, saying, Master, but when shall these things be? and what sign will there be when these things shall come to pass?

    WARNING AGAINST DECEPTION
    And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you. And Jesus answering them began to say, Take heed lest any man deceive you: And he said, Take heed that ye be not deceived:

    ADMIRATION OF THE TEMPLE BY THE DISCIPLES (30 AD)

    And Jesus went out, and departed from the temple: and his disciples came to him for to shew him the buildings of the temple. And as he went out of the temple, one of his disciples saith unto him, Master, see what manner of stones and what buildings are here! And as some spake of the temple, how it was adorned with goodly stones and gifts, he said...

    I. EVENTS TO BE FULFILLED BY 70 AD


    PREDICTION OF THE DESTRUCTION OF THE TEMPLE (70 AD)
    And Jesus said unto them, See ye not all these things? verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. And Jesus answering said unto him, Seest thou these great buildings? there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down. As for these things which ye behold, the days will come, in the which there shall not be left one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down.

    PREDICTION OF THE DESTRUCTION OF JERUSALEM (70 AD)
    And when ye shall see Jerusalem compassed with armies, then know that the desolation thereof is nigh. Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto. For these be the days of vengeance, that all things which are written may be fulfilled. But woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck, in those days! for there shall be great distress in the land, and wrath upon this people. And they shall fall by the edge of the sword, and shall be led away captive into all nations: and Jerusalem shall be trodden down of the Gentiles, until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.

    FLIGHT FROM JERUSALEM AND JUDEA NECESSARY (70 AD)
    Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: And let him that is on the housetop not go down into the house, neither enter therein, to take any thing out of his house: And let him that is in the field not turn back again for to take up his garment. But woe to them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 18 And pray ye that your flight be not in the winter.
     
  5. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    PART II

    II. EVENTS STARTING IN THE 1ST CENTURY AND CONTINUING TO THIS DAY


    FALSE CHRISTS PREDICTED (the First Seal of Revelation)

    For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many. For many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and shall deceive many... for many shall come in my name, saying, I am Christ; and the time draweth near: go ye not therefore after them.

    WARS AND RUMORS OF WAR PREDICTED (the Second Seal of Revelation)
    And ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars: see that ye be not troubled: for all these things must come to pass, but the end is not yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: And when ye shall hear of wars and rumours of wars, be ye not troubled: for such things must needs be; but the end shall not be yet. For nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom: But when ye shall hear of wars and commotions, be not terrified: for these things must first come to pass; but the end is not by and by.Then said he unto them, Nation shall rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom:

    FAMINES, EARTHQUAKES, PESTILENCES PREDICTED (the Third and Fourth Seals of Revelation)
    And there shall be famines, and pestilences, and earthquakes, in divers places. All these are the beginning of sorrows. and there shall be earthquakes in divers places, and there shall be famines and troubles: these are the beginnings of sorrows. And great earthquakes shall be in divers places, and famines, and pestilences;

    PERSECUTIONS PREDICTED (the Fifth Seal of Revelation)

    Then shall they deliver you up to be afflicted, and shall kill you: and ye shall be hated of all nations for my name's sake. And then shall many be offended, and shall betray one another, and shall hate one another. But take heed to yourselves: for they shall deliver you up to councils; and in the synagogues ye shall be beaten: and ye shall be brought before rulers and kings for my sake, for a testimony against them But when they shall lead you, and deliver you up, take no thought beforehand what ye shall speak, neither do ye premeditate: but whatsoever shall be given you in that hour, that speak ye: for it is not ye that speak, but the Holy Ghost. Now the brother shall betray the brother to death, and the father the son; and children shall rise up against their parents, and shall cause them to be put to death. And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved. But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.And it shall turn to you for a testimony. Settle it therefore in your hearts, not to meditate before what ye shall answer: For I will give you a mouth and wisdom, which all your adversaries shall not be able to gainsay nor resist. And ye shall be betrayed both by parents, and brethren, and kinsfolks, and friends; and some of you shall they cause to be put to death.And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake. But there shall not an hair of your head perish. 19 In your patience possess ye your souls.

    FALSE PROPHETS AND FALSE CHRISTS PREDICTED
    And many false prophets shall rise, and shall deceive many.And because iniquity shall abound, the love of many shall wax cold.But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

    GOSPEL TO BE PREACHED WORLDWIDE BEFORE THE END
    And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
     
  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    PART III

    III. EVENTS RESERVED FOR THE FUTURE AFTER THE CHURCH AGE


    THE RAPTURE (YOUR REDEMPTION) PREDICTED
    Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When her branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is near: So ye in like manner, when ye shall see these things come to pass, know that it is nigh, even at the doors. Verily I say unto you, that this generation shall not pass, till all these things be done. And when these things begin to come to pass, then look up, and lift up your heads; for your redemption draweth nigh.And he spake to them a parable; Behold the fig tree, and all the trees; When they now shoot forth, ye see and know of your own selves that summer is now nigh at hand. So likewise ye, when ye see these things come to pass, know ye that the kingdom of God is nigh at hand. Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, till all be fulfilled.Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares. For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth. Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

    THE ANTICHRIST AND LYING WONDERS PREDICTED
    And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect. But take ye heed: behold, I have foretold you all things. Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before.Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not.

    THE ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION PREDICTED
    When ye therefore shall see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, whoso readeth, let him understand: But when ye shall see the Abomination of Desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing where it ought not, Let him that readeth understand, then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains:

    THE GREAT TRIBULATION PREDICTED (the Seventh Seal of Revelation)
    For then shall be [The] Great Tribulation [see Rev 7:14], such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened. For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.

    AFTER THIS CATACLYSMIC COSMIC EVENTS PREDICTED
    (the Sixth Seal of Revelation)

    Immediately after The Tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring; Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.

    AFTER THIS THE SECOND COMING OF CHRIST PREDICTED
    For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of Man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. And then shall they see the Son of Man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

    AFTER THIS THE GATHERING OF ISRAEL’S ELECT PREDICTED
    And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other. And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
     
  7. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    We clearly share belief that the 70 AD event was predicted. And I agree with you that some of the signs Jesus gave were intended to continue throughout the age. It's just that the "birth pains" were to precede the fall of Jerusalem, and to herald that event--signs like wars and rumors of wars. These things presaged Roman trouble that would draw near to Jerusalem, and ultimately, overwhelm it.

    I disagree with your notion that the Abomination of Desolation represents the Antichrist, although that is also a long-held belief. I believe the AoD is found in Dan 9, and represents the Roman Army that came against Jerusalem after the 70 Weeks prophecy was fulfilled.

    I also disagree with your depicting the Great Tribulation as anything other than the Jewish Diaspora of the NT age. That is just how Jesus described it in Luke 21. Other than that I appreciate the fact we agree on some key points. Thank you.
     
  8. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Here is something to consider concerning the Olivet Discourse. I find it clarify's a lot.

    Speaking of the Jews Jesus made a statement in (Matt. 23:39) that would prepare for the discussion. "...Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord."

    After the disciples showed Jesus the Temple, Jesus said, (Matt. 24:2), "...There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down." That definitely pointed to 70 A.D.

    The disciples then asked two questions in (Matt. 24:3). 1.) "...when shall these things be...." 2.) "...and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world."

    (Matt. 24-25) answers the 2nd question which involves the Second Coming and the end of the age. (Luke 21:12-24) answers the 1st question which involves 70 A.D. and the destruction of the Temple. It speaks to things 'before' the Tribulation. See (LU. 21:12)

    (Matt. 24:4-14) is the first 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation. See (24:8). "the beginning of sorrows"

    (Matt. 24:15-20) is the middle of the Tribulation. See (Dan. 9:27)

    (Matt. 24:21-28) is the last 3 and 1/2 years of the Tribulation called the 'great tribulatin'. See (Matt. 24:21)

    (Matt 24:29-31) is after the Tribulation. See (Matt. 24:29)

    Stranger
     
  9. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    It's okay that we disagree. All that matters to me is that you maintain a good Christian spirit in the disagreement, and apparently you do. :)

    A number of Christians I've debated this with try to differentiate between Matthew's version of the Olivet Discourse and Luke's version of the same. One, they say, is more about the future, and they believe that Luke is about Jerusalem's fall in 70 AD.

    The problem with this is, all the versions were about the same Discourse--they cannot be differentiated. And thus, Luke 21 essentially identified Matthew's "Abomination of Deseolation" with the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    Thus, the Beginning of Sorrows, or the Birth Pains, were all about signs that led up to the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD. All *those things* would take place in "this generation," ie the generation of the apostles. It is quite clear that 70 AD is within the generation of the apostles, whether or not they all lived or not. I believe John did.

    Jesus mentioned this particular generation right after mentioning his 2nd Coming, which makes many Christians believe Jesus was talking about the generation that would see Jesus' return. But Jesus' focus was not primarily on his 2nd Coming, but more, on when the destruction of the temple would take place. He indicated that the timing of his 2nd Coming was not something that his Disciples should be concerned with.

    Jesus reiterated this in Acts 1.6, where he was asked by his Disciples when he would return to restore Israel. He said the times and seasons were left in the hands of the Father. His primary concern was to prepare his own generation for what they were about to face. Future generations would have to deal with their own antichrists.
     
    Last edited by a moderator: May 8, 2020
  10. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    Why did you add your words into my post. That is very dishonest. I will report it.

    Stranger
     
  11. rockytopva

    rockytopva Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    I have edited the post in question.
     
  12. Stranger

    Stranger Well-Known Member

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    I appreciate your timely action.

    Stranger
     
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  13. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    If you spent years studying it, then your result shows you studied it 'within' a framework based on men's tradition called Preterism. Doing that is about as realistic as calling a piece of round white plastic a fried egg.

    Christ's Olivet Discourse is NOT about previous history, like the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Jesus was giving the 7 main Signs of the END of this world, and they parallel the signs in Revelation 6 given to His Church.

    There's still a huge group of stones atop one another standing at the temple mount area in Jerusalem today, called the Western Wall, or Wailing Wall. There's no excuse in not recognizing that wall of huge stones means that prophecy is yet to be fulfilled. Christ's disciples asked Him what would be the sign of His coming and the end of the world, so there's also no excuse in not recognizing that's the actual subject of that chapter, and NOT events back in 70 A.D.

    But Preterists think that if they can spread a false tradition enough and loud enough, then people will believe it. So they depend on people being too lazy to check out the Scripture for themselves. Those who heed them deserve to be deceived.
     
  14. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    You don't seem to be a respectable Christian, unless you just didn't see what I said about this already. I said I'm *not* a Preterist. I hold to the same historical interpretation that the Church Fathers did, which was well before Preterism was even a sparkle in someone's eye.

    Historically interpreted prophecies exist without having the label "Preterist" attached to them--prophecies such as the prophecy of Jesus' 1st Coming, suffering, death, and resurrection. To believe this prophecy was historically fulfilled is *not* Preterism!

    Preterists tend to believe not just the Olivet Discourse but most of the Book of Revelation was fulfilled in the early centuries of Christianity. I do not believe this--I'm a futurist--I believe the Antichrist has yet to come, and will reign for 3.5 years in the future, just before Christ's 2nd Coming. Again, I'm *not* a Preterist. And you're saying I am is therefore a form of slander.

    Slandering fellow Christians, or anybody for that matter, is not something Christians should do. It's actually a *sin.* You should just take me at my word, if you want to be respectable, brother. Why should I listen to anything you have to say if you're not a respectable Christian, and thus show a lack of *love* for a fellow brother?

    I'd love to discuss this with you, but as far as I'm concerned, you're not worthy. But I will say this, on behalf of those who might want a response to your claim. When you say the Olivet Discourse had nothing to do with the Fall of Jerusalem in 70 AD, how do you explain that Jesus pointed to Herod's temple and said *that temple* would be destroyed? It was destroyed in 70 AD! It wasn't some *future temple* that would be destroyed. It was *that particular temple!*

    Luke 21.20 “When you see Jerusalem being surrounded by armies, you will know that its desolation is near. 21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those in the city get out, and let those in the country not enter the city. 22 For this is the time of punishment in fulfillment of all that has been written. 23 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! There will be great distress in the land and wrath against this people. 24 They will fall by the sword and will be taken as prisoners to all the nations. Jerusalem will be trampled on by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled."

    Now read the above in bold and tell me that didn't happen soon after 70 AD? If you're waiting for that still to happen, you've definitely missed the boat!
     
  15. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

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    I'm not respectable just because I call people out for their false traditions of men they push? Right!

    Belief in Jesus' Olivet Discourse being about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans is... a doctrine of Preterism/Historicism. Just because the term Preterism was coined later doesn't mean it's not applicable.

    Some of the Church fathers after the 1st century A.D. believed in amillennialism too, but that doesn't make it an actual Bible doctrine.

    If you push a Preterist doctrine, which treating Christ's Olivet discourse as being about the 70 A.D. destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans is a Preterist doctrine, then that puts your teaching in that category. They have different levels of Preterism too. You're simply not going to slide out of that just because we're now living in the 21st century. Trying to label that as slander is funny!
     
  16. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    Okay, let me rephrase then. Some people would indeed identify my view as Preterism. Others, like myself, do not wish to be identified with Preterism, because Preterism often contains beliefs that I do not subscribe to, such as the Beast of Revelation was Nero or the Roman Empire in the time of John.

    To then go on and call me a Preterist is just name-calling, isn't it? And I think that's rather immature of you, because we're trying to establish what we believe here--not name call?

    If you want to discuss what I actually believe, let me know. If you think that just calling my view "Preterism" proves anything, it doesn't. I follow the beliefs of the Early Church Fathers. Are you going to call them "Preterists" too?
     
  17. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    I clearly don't like any person calling me a Preterist when I don't call myself one, and have a basis for disassociating myself with Preterism. But it is a good question that many deserve to ask, when it is done in a good spirit.

    Simply consulting an encyclopedia definition of "Preterist" will uncover its history, which began apparently with the Counter Reformation. So, if my view conforms more with the Early Church position of the 70 Weeks Prophecy in Dan 9 and of the Olivet Discourse and the Abomination of Desolation, then I cannot possibly be of the Preterist School, and it is mere name-calling to insist on calling me a Preterist.

    The differences between Partial Preterism and my own view is therefore detectable, if one is really interested in knowing, instead of just accusing. Partial Preterists, like any Preterist, will also see Dan 9 and the Olivet Discourse fulfilled in 70 AD. And Preterists would also see the book of Revelation fulfilled in the early centuries of the Church. It is my understanding that they also see an end to God's covenant with the Jews by 70 AD.

    I see the Great Tribulation of the Jewish People, which is the NT Jewish Diaspora, as being a part of the prediction of the Olivet Discourse, and not something fulfilled in the 1st century. And I see God's covenant with the Jews continuing, albeit in the form of a promise of future national restoration. These things are not Preterist views.

    I also believe in a future 3.5 year reign of Antichrist, which is rarely accepted by some Preterists, apparently. Obviously, I have a hybrid view that incorporates some elements of Dispensationalism, as well as some elements of Preterism. But it does not make me a Preterist, because I interpret the book of Revelation in a futurist way, and I also see the Great Tribulation of the Olivet Discourse as being the NT Jewish Diaspora.

    I hope this puts to rest the "name-calling?" I'm *not* a Preterist, but I do have Preterist-like views.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  18. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    The Wailing Wall is just a big retaining wall for the plaza upon which the Mosques are built. Who knows where the temple actually was, but the retaining wall is not part of the temple, although you might call it part of the temple *complex.*
     
  19. Timtofly

    Timtofly Active Member

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    I think it has been called that by many folk for many centuries. Blaming it on a few people in the last 70 years, does not make sense. Some parts of Jerusalem have been buried deeply in debris since the time of David in the OT. More dust and debris have happened since 70AD, than between David and Christ. 1950 years is 950 years longer than 1000.

    I still do not understand why, if John was called up to heaven and shown Satan's half of the trib, that John is not also mentioning the Seals, Trumpets, and Thunderings as they are happening at the same time. Those three events happened at the same time, as the vials, because John never says that he kept going up and down into heaven multiple times for multiple events. It would seem proper, if that happened, to write multiple books for the separate occasions to avoid any confusion. That did not happen. John experienced all 7 years, and wrote about all 7 years as one continuous event.

    The biggest proof is that the event of seal 6 in chapter 6, would have made more "headlines", and the Romans would not have slaughtered all the Jews, even the ones who fled months prior. History says that the Romans hunted down and killed as close to all as they could and made slaves out of the rest. History does not mention God once appearing to everyone alive on earth at that time. Nor was there any intervention by any being or nation on the plight of Jerusalem.

    Can you prove that John was not supposed to be on Patmos, in 70AD? If he was up in heaven writing about the future, how could he write about an event that he did not even know about? God had him writing about a future event and not one hundreds of miles away not even related to Satan's 3.5 year period. None of his letters was to a church in Rome nor Jerusalem. Jerusalem did not exist.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
  20. Randy Kluth

    Randy Kluth Active Member

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    I'm sorry, brother, but I'm posting on a number of different websites right now, and have trouble understanding what you and I are arguing about right now, if at all? I can only respond to a few points that we may disagree on for your interest.

    One, I have a peculiar way of determining biblical truth, so that I can ascertain biblical doctrine. It requires explicit biblical teaching, along with a trail of theological development. On the issue of a 7 years period of Tribulation, 2 things do not pass the test in this regard. There is no biblical teaching on a 7 years Tribulation period--none at all! It is derived, illogically, from Daniel's 70th Week in Dan 9. It is illogical because a 70 Week Period is not a 70 Week Period if the 70th Week is broken off of it and transferred way off into the future!

    So let's just stop talking about 2 halves of a 7 year Tribulation period? There is nothing to base this on in the book of Revelation, or in the NT Scriptures at all! It may be a popular theory, but there is zero biblical substantiation, and thus, we're safe to let it go. God isn't going to be mad if we don't refer to something that doesn't explicitly exist!

    Secondly, there is no evidence that the eschatological Day of God's Wrath is to be conflated with a "Tribulation Period," whether 3.5 years of 7 years. God's Day of Wrath is to be equated, biblically, with Christ's Coming to bring about a change upon the earth, determining the eternal fate of those involved in the Antichristian Conspiracy.

    The time of Antichrist's rule, said to be 3.5 years in both Daniel 7 and Revelation, is not a stretched-out Day of Wrath. Though God's Wrath is always active, to some extent in history, including during the Reign of Antichrist, the "Day of Wrath" is focused on Christ's Coming, and the Battle of Armageddon.

    And the Seals, Trumpets, and Bowls are separate visions laying out this crescendo of judgment leading to Christ's Coming. They do not indicate that God's eschatological judgment takes place *throughout* the period of Antichrist's rule!

    Quite frankly, I think that many fail to understand that even though the book of Revelation represents a single narrative, the many visions contained are not arranged chronologically. Many of them are "self-contained," and in themselves represent the whole span of history in the endtimes, ending with Christ's return.

    In this case, you may see reference to Christ's Coming in several of the separate visions, which of course do not indicate that Christ will return several times! These are just a number of visions showing different aspects of the same history, in my opinion.

    I don't know why you're talking about "God appearing" in 70 AD? I don't believe the Preterist claim that God appeared in 70 AD! In other words, I don't believe we should confuse eschatological judgment with the 70 AD judgment.

    Regarding the temple mount, I've been there. And I know what you're talking about, with respect to hundreds of years of debris. I took a tour underneath, and know the Muslim opposition to this archaeological work.

    It tends to favor Jewish claims, and not Muslim claims. But I'll stick by my claim that the Wailing Wall may have been part of the old temple complex, but was not part of the temple structure itself. It would not fit any of the specified construction that God called for in the building of the temple. It was just a retaining wall.
     
    Last edited: May 10, 2020
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