Union sans Fellowship

[Netchaplain]

One can be in union with God without being in fellowship with Him, and such is the temporal condition of unbelieving Israel (concerning God’s Son, but not God – Jhn 14:1). They are “fallen” (Rom 11:12) and “broken off” (v 20) from fellowship, but not “cast away” (vs 1, 2) from union; which fellowship which will eventually be restored (11:23-29; Eze 36:27; Jer 30:22 – with the remaining non-Messianic Jews existing at the Lord’s return, during the Millennium), but they it will continue to be only as a “people of God” and their fellowship not involve the sonship relationship as it does for the Messianic Jews who believe in the Lord Jesus before His return (Jhn 20:29).

Our union with the Father is established within our union with Christ; but our fellowship with the Father and His Son is established gradually as we learn what’s involved; same as “living in the Spirit,” and eventually learning to “walk in the Spirit” (Gal 5:24). Though our greatest desire is fellowship with God, (and there is a level of fellowship as “babes in Christ”), it requires time for Him to teach us what is involved and meant concerning “fellowship in the Gospel” (Phl 1:5). As our knowledge and understanding grows in His Word, we draw near to Him in fellowship, which is the overall goal and purpose of everything!


Paul described Israel's restoration as a "mystery" (Rom 11:25). Only the believers in God prior to Christ’s coming were in union with Him, never those who did not believe in God.

 

[101G]

True, what you call a union we call the relationship. as was with the first Adam, only until disobedience interrupted the fellowship of the relationship. we all are creation of God, for he allow his sun to shine on the just as well as the unjust.

you're correct, it's the enjoyment of the the relationship that is broken, which we simply calls Broken fellowship.

PICJAG.

 

[Netchaplain]

True, what you call a union we call the relationship. as was with the first Adam, only until disobedience interrupted the fellowship of the relationship. we all are creation of God, for he allow his sun to shine on the just as well as the unjust.

you're correct, it's the enjoyment of the the relationship that is broken, which we simply calls Broken fellowship.

PICJAG.

Hi and thanks for your input! I pretty much agree with your comments, though I think relationship is both union and fellowship, e.g. a mature relationship is one who has learned enough to "walk in the Spirit," and an immature relationship is one who is still learning to become mature. But regardless of where our growth is after the Spirit, I believe all who are reborn are eventually brought to maturity via the Father's "work" in us (Phl 2:13).

Thankfully what we begin with (redeemed; salvation) remains through it all!

 

[farouk]

John's First Epistle says a lot about fellowship, Godward and manward...

 

[Netchaplain]

John's First Epistle says a lot about fellowship, Godward and manward...

Hi and always appreciate your applicable input, as that's a good Chapter on this subject. It depicts those who are not in union with God, and those who are, via the word "fellowship." In these passages it identifies false professing unbelievers, who claim to be reborn but are not manifesting it in their lifestyles (chiefly vs 6, 7).

Blessings Far!

 

[marks]

I'm convinced that nothing in all of creation can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus, and if that's true, from where comes any break in fellowship?

I know that if I think I'm too dirty to be with God, then I can forget that He is ever with me, ever loving me, ever holding me. But if I think I'm too dirty to be with God, then I'm forgetting what Jesus did.

I don't think that fellowship is based on our maturity, I think it is based on our faith.

I think we need to remember that our relationship with God is all about trust in Him, and that we receive blessings through faith in Christ, not in performance or learning. But performance and learnign is where we change to be like Him.

Much love!
mark

 

[Netchaplain]

I'm convinced that nothing in all of creation can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus, and if that's true, from where comes any break in fellowship?

I know that if I think I'm too dirty to be with God, then I can forget that He is ever with me, ever loving me, ever holding me. But if I think I'm too dirty to be with God, then I'm forgetting what Jesus did.

I don't think that fellowship is based on our maturity, I think it is based on our faith.

I think we need to remember that our relationship with God is all about trust in Him, and that we receive blessings through faith in Christ, not in performance or learning. But performance and learnign is where we change to be like Him.

Much love!
mark

I like your comments here because they seem to rest mostly on union and fellowship being the same thing, which I believe is true in a manner of understanding, because as I've mentioned in the OP that there is always a certain level of fellowship upon our union with God. The point I'm trying to make is that union is at one level, but fellowship grows as we understand more of what He desires of us.

For example, one may have the correct understanding of a Biblical truth and one may not yet understand. Though the desire to fellowship with God is the same in both, misunderstanding a doctrine related to fellowship with Him will decrease the practical nearness to Him, until He shows the correct understanding.

The only doctrines that interfere with fellowship are those which teach self-reliance, e.g. how works and grace are understood. Many in contemporary Christendom believe works can affect redemption, but in truth they can only manifest redemption, and do not have an effect on receiving or retaining salvation (just for example). Thus in a more vulnerable understanding we will limit ourselves to conscientiously realizing where we actually are with Him in nearness.

 

[marks]

I think we need to make sure Christians, of all levels of maturity and understanding, I think all need to understand that we have full and real and vital fellowship with our Father, and with Jesus, in the Spirit, solely through faith.

Putting a limit on my fellowship with God due to my limited understanding of God would be to define my relationship with God based on who I am.

I think the only thing I have to be to have intimate and practical and vital fellowship with God is His child, born again.

If I am, then I believe my relationship with God is defined by Who He is, and what He did for us. If we remember that, then we always have fellowship, full and free, because we find Him through faith in Jesus.

Many in contemporary Christendom believe works can affect redemption, but in truth they can only manifest redemption, and do not have an effect on receiving or retaining salvation (just for example).

I completely agree, NC, we neither receive nor retain salvation by merit.

You ask, why is this so very important to me?

Because so many people I know have been taught to believe that our shortcomings prevent our fellowshipping with God, and I'm here to say that His fellowship with us extends even to those times when we've gotten tangled up in sin, in the mind of the flesh, when everything is crazy and it's me! I'm the problem. But even then, in our deepest darkest need, He is with me, never forsaking me, always loving me, and always ready to receive me.

I think I understand what you are saying, please correct me if I'm wrong. We can have wrong ideas about God, and about how our life with Him actually works, and these wrong ideas can make us think we have come kind of lesser fellowship, and because that's what we think, that's how we see ourselves and our lives, until God gives us the true understanding, and we can then appreciate and enjoy our fellowship with Him.

Is that right? I would agree!

And I trust Jesus for everything I don't understand, but I hang tightly to what I do understand:

He has promised, I will never leave you or forsake you.
Ask of me, and I will show you great and might things that you did not know.

Much love!
mark

 

[101G]

Hi and thanks for your input! I pretty much agree with your comments, though I think relationship is both union and fellowship, e.g. a mature relationship is one who has learned enough to "walk in the Spirit," and an immature relationship is one who is still learning to become mature. But regardless of where our growth is after the Spirit, I believe all who are reborn are eventually brought to maturity via the Father's "work" in us (Phl 2:13).

Thankfully what we begin with (redeemed; salvation) remains through it all!

Thanks for the reply,

yes, we agree, but a relationship never changes, but a fellowship can grow, or be broken. example. a woman has a child. there is nothing she can do to break the relationship. she can change her name, or change her skin color, but that will not change the relationship between mother and child, or father and child.

now, if that child goes anti social and kill, that's still that parent child, and that child is still that parent offspring. the parent might not like what the child did, (which is broken fellowship) but the relationship is not changed.

like what happen in the garden of Eden, the children sin, and that result was "broken fellowship" which can be restored by restitution, or in our case recompense, or redeemed.

so we agree, just from diffrent views.

PICJAG

 

[Netchaplain]

I think we need to make sure Christians, of all levels of maturity and understanding, I think all need to understand that we have full and real and vital fellowship with our Father, and with Jesus, in the Spirit, solely through faith.

Putting a limit on my fellowship with God due to my limited understanding of God would be to define my relationship with God based on who I am.

I think the only thing I have to be to have intimate and practical and vital fellowship with God is His child, born again.

If I am, then I believe my relationship with God is defined by Who He is, and what He did for us. If we remember that, then we always have fellowship, full and free, because we find Him through faith in Jesus.



I completely agree, NC, we neither receive nor retain salvation by merit.

You ask, why is this so very important to me?

Because so many people I know have been taught to believe that our shortcomings prevent our fellowshipping with God, and I'm here to say that His fellowship with us extends even to those times when we've gotten tangled up in sin, in the mind of the flesh, when everything is crazy and it's me! I'm the problem. But even then, in our deepest darkest need, He is with me, never forsaking me, always loving me, and always ready to receive me.

I think I understand what you are saying, please correct me if I'm wrong. We can have wrong ideas about God, and about how our life with Him actually works, and these wrong ideas can make us think we have come kind of lesser fellowship, and because that's what we think, that's how we see ourselves and our lives, until God gives us the true understanding, and we can then appreciate and enjoy our fellowship with Him.

Is that right? I would agree!

And I trust Jesus for everything I don't understand, but I hang tightly to what I do understand:

He has promised, I will never leave you or forsake you.
Ask of me, and I will show you great and might things that you did not know.

Much love!
mark

I like and agree with all you've stated and I think we are meaning the same thing but in a different understanding. There's the fellowship with God just being in His Son, and fellowship with God being in the same understanding as Him concerning what He reveals to us in His Word. For example, let's assume it's true that salvation cannot be lost. Since this is a true Biblical doctrine, I cannot have fellowship with God in it if I do not understand nor believe it, but as you've made correct mention, there is still always a certain level of fellowship with God in His Son.

Without understanding certain truths, we cannot fellowship in them until we do. The more Biblical truths we come to understand, the more fellowship we have with God in them, otherwise we are limited to knowing the freedom we have in Him, and our conscience hinders that unlimited freedom we can have in our mind.

 

[marks]

@Netchaplain

I think the real understanding that we need is to understand that when people say you limit your fellowship with God for any reason, that the only true reason is the lack of faith in Jesus' finished work.

Yes we grow, yes we mature, but at the end of the day, at least to me, the only thing that determines whether I am receiving of my fellowship with God is whether I am trusting that His is enough for me.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fellowshipping in certain truths". If you mean we can't enjoy the fact that our salvation is forever until we understand that it is, yes, I'd have to agree with that, just the same, I don't see that automatically affecting our intimacy with God.

I just can't seem to put limits on how close we can be to God by how much we know. I still think it's not a matter of knowing doctrine, but of trusting Him. That is, after we've been reborn.

Much love!
mark

 

[Netchaplain]

I think the real understanding that we need is to understand that when people say you limit your fellowship with God for any reason, that the only true reason is the lack of faith in Jesus' finished work.

Yes we grow, yes we mature, but at the end of the day, at least to me, the only thing that determines whether I am receiving of my fellowship with God is whether I am trusting that His is enough for me.

I'm not sure what you mean by "fellowshipping in certain truths". If you mean we can't enjoy the fact that our salvation is forever until we understand that it is, yes, I'd have to agree with that, just the same, I don't see that automatically affecting our intimacy with God.

I just can't seem to put limits on how close we can be to God by how much we know. I still think it's not a matter of knowing doctrine, but of trusting Him. That is, after we've been reborn.

I fully understand your reasoning, and it looks like it may be too difficult to explain my meaning, but I''m just saying believers can have varying levels of fellowship according to varying knowledge and understanding (not that it varies any level of son-ship), similar to having one type of fellowship with a young son or daughter, and a different type of fellowship with an older child. The fellowship is the same concerning family relationship, but the type of fellowship varies in the one on one relationship.

But of course, it's okay if we have different opinions on this issue, and thanks for your fellowship we have in the Word.

 

[Netchaplain]

I believe another example is that Israel (those believing in God - Jhn 14:1) is still in union with Him, but not in fellowship until later.

 

[marks]

@Netchaplain

Hi NC,

I think I understand what you are saying, that with greater knowledge of our Creator we can enjoy deeper and richer fellowship with Him.

Is that correct?

I would agree that things we discuss with our God may change as our understandings change, and our understandings of Scripture will continue to grow throughout our lives, just the same, a new born believer can have just as deep and rich a relationship with God as someone in the faith for 50 years.

Our relationships may not look the same, may not be described the same, but I still maintain it's a matter of faith, not knowledge.

Take salvation itself. You and I both know that there are many people with many different doctrines with both of us would be hard pressed to find in Scripture. Yet I think you would agree, that if our core doctrine is trust in Jesus' propitiatory death, and the power of His resurrection, and the rightness of His Lordship, we will all be together in heaven. Our learning past the basics doesn't change our salvation.

So now relationship. The new born believer knows very little, only that they have a desparate need which God just filled. And now they know so little, but feel so needy to learn this new life. And with this one I will live, says God.

I don't discount the value of knowledge. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. But I believe that knowledge isn't our most immediate need as believers, rather, that we believe.

No matter what I think I know, or what I believe God has shown me, sharing in this special relationship with Him, at the end of the day what matters to me is to remember, You are here. And so I promote faith.

Being united with God, the one thing I believe I need to know to have a full and rich relationship with God is that it's all real. God really did make me to be loved. Jesus really did die for me out of love. God really did regenerate me into one who loves. Together we love.

Much love!
Mark

 

[Netchaplain]

I think I understand what you are saying, that with greater knowledge of our Creator we can enjoy deeper and richer fellowship with Him.
Is that correct?

Yes, and the point is to continue onward into ever deeper understanding God gives us in His Word (Hebrews 6:1-3). Of course knowledge is only potential, which is to be accompanied by understanding and application, all by the Holy Spirit, thus increasing the amount of fellowship in more things He desires us to know and understand.

I would agree that things we discuss with our God may change as our understandings change, and our understandings of Scripture will continue to grow throughout our lives, just the same, a new born believer can have just as deep and rich a relationship with God as someone in the faith for 50 years.

I agree here, if both are at the same maturity in understanding, which would not be the case if both have been reading and studying the Word with the same understanding. The older saint would have more understanding due to more experience, but the difference in experience only addresses how one will be used and not for comparing one another.

Our relationships may not look the same, may not be described the same, but I still maintain it's a matter of faith, not knowledge.

Yes, it's always a matter of faith (Rom 14:32), without which, Gospel knowledge is inaccessible, and understanding not possible.

Take salvation itself. You and I both know that there are many people with many different doctrines with both of us would be hard pressed to find in Scripture. Yet I think you would agree, that if our core doctrine is trust in Jesus' propitiatory death, and the power of His resurrection, and the rightness of His Lordship, we will all be together in heaven. Our learning past the basics doesn't change our salvation.

This is true! Both are saved if they have been given faith in Christ, and it stands to reason that if one knows and understands more than the other, there is more potential for more use than the other. This isn't to compete with one another but just shows one is doing more to be used more.

I don't discount the value of knowledge. Faith comes by hearing, and hearing the word of God. But I believe that knowledge isn't our most immediate need as believers, rather, that we believe.

It's my belief that salvation and faith are permanent. Therefore it's now always a matter of growth in our faith (salvation admits not in degrees), which comes only through increased understanding of Biblical knowledge. Essential knowledge (that which must be known for salvation) is always basic, being the most important because it allows for redemption. But growth in nonessential knowledge (that which does not effect being saved, but effects how one is used in salvation) seems to have unlimited depths of understanding (just my opinion).

Much Love Too!
Chaplain Bob

 

[marks]

It's my belief that salvation and faith are permanent. Therefore it's now always a matter of growth in our faith (salvation admits not in degrees), which comes only through increased understanding of Biblical knowledge. Essential knowledge (that which must be known for salvation) is always basic, being the most important because it allows for redemption. But growth in nonessential knowledge (that which does not effect being saved, but effects how one is used in salvation) seems to have unlimited depths of understanding (just my opinion).

Hi NC,

This is my view also.

But while I believe our salvation and faith are permanent, we sometimes forget to use our faith. There can be the tendency to seek through knowledge what we need through faith.

Unlimited depths of understanding, yes, it is truly fantastic!

What I keep coming back to in my mind is the new Christian, who knows virtually nothing about their new life, but is so excited and so in love for being forgiven, and accepted. And when they go home, and tell their family, God can work in them just the same, to share that salvation, and to bring joy and peace and love and fellowship with Him, even as they continue to learn.

I think that people can forget in all the study and learning - not to disparage that, and not to say this is you - the simplicity of their faith at the first. For me, the added knowledge promotes my faith.

I know we're talking about much the same thing, but I include the new believers also. I may know more (debatable, I'm sure), but I think there are ones in closer fellowship with God for their greater faith.

This isn't to compete with one another but just shows one is doing more to be used more.

I definitely want to be a vessel for honorable use! And the Word washes us.

Much love!

 

[Netchaplain]

This is my view also.
But while I believe our salvation and faith are permanent, we sometimes forget to use our faith. There can be the tendency to seek through knowledge what we need through faith.

True, and this can also get inverted. We can also attempt to walk in a faith-truth that is not "according to knowledge" (Rom 10:2), e.g. not knowledge containing actual truth, which is usually a truth not yet correctly understood (lots of that today). This is not a negative thing if we're being zealous "in a good thing" (Gal 4:18), that is, with the right motive.

I know we're talking about much the same thing, but I include the new believers also. I may know more (debatable, I'm sure), but I think there are ones in closer fellowship with God for their greater faith.

I have no doubt that this could be the same for many, for our faith is commensurate with our understanding, not just our knowledge. One can know more but understand less of what they know; and conversely, one can know less but understand more of what they know.

God bless, and God be blessed!