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Universal Reconcilation? (Christian Universalism)

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Aquila, Jun 18, 2008.

  1. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    Praise the Lord everyone!I'm new here and please forgive me as I learn the rules. In a few threads around here I saw two different theological views being represented about Hell: Eternal Hell and Annihilationism. But there is a third view that is gaining some ground in Evangelical community. This view is known as Universal Reconciliationism or Universal Salvation. I thought that it might be interesting to discuss this view here also, especially in light of the ideas of Eternal Hell and Annihilationism. The Universal Salvation view holds that Hell is temporary and that all will eventually be saved. This view was believed by many during the first four centuries of the Church and was a view held by Origen. Down through Christian history this view was adopted in various forms by various theologians classified as "Christian Universalists". So here goes...Here are a few Scriptures this view is based upon...I Corinthians 15:22.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Romans 5:18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. John 12:32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Philippians 2: 10-11. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I Timothy 2: 1-6.I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Ephesians 1: 9-11. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Colossians 1: 16 and 20. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Acts 3: 20 and 21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. I John 2:2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Romans 8: 20-21. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God Hebrews 7:25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Titus 2:11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, I Corinthians 4:5. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. Revelation 21: 4-5. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Also consider Christ's own parabolic descriptions of Hell...Luke 12:42-59:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.In the above parable Christ indicates that in eternity the unprepared and the unbelievers will be punished. However, their punishment varies in both intensity and duration. The “stripes” (or punishments) come to an end. Jesus also said…Matthew 18:23-35:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.Here we see a man delivered to the tormentors “till” (or until) he has sufficiently paid for his wrong. Matthew 25:4125:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Here we see that the lake of fire is to be the permanent abode of the devil and his angels. Then Jesus goes on to say…The Greek language also brings another possibility to the table. Jesus said, Matthew 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment (kolasis): but the righteous into life eternal.The term “aionios” doesn’t literally translate “everlasting” or “eternal”. The term “aionios” is based on the Greek root noun “aion” meaning “age” or “eon”. The term “aionios” is an adjective meaning “pertaining to the aion” or “age enduring”. The term is used for anything that doesn’t have a defined end or beginning. It could indeed be “eternal”…or it may also indicate a limited period of time whose duration is unknown. For example the hills and the mountains are referred to as being “everlasting” in Genesis 49:26 and Habakkuk 3:6. The Greek term used here is also “aionios”. These verses don’t mean that the mountains and hills are “eternal” but rather the time of their end or destruction is unknown. So here Jesus may be describing a period of time that whose duration is unknown or unrevealed. Also it’s important to note that the term “aionios” is an adjective that is to be understood in context of the noun it’s describing. For example if it speaks of God certainly the word is to be understood as “eternal” because God is eternal. However, if used in respect to mountains or hills it is to be understood as being “age enduring” or as “having an unknown end”. That brings us to the next point….It is the “punishment” that is described by the adjective “aionios”. The Greek term used here for “punishment” is “kolasis”. This is a very interesting Greek term that has puzzled Bible scholars for millennia. The term “kolasis” is based on the root word “kolazo” meaning to “prune”, “correct”, or “to make better”. So the Greek language here would allow the phrase “everlasting punishment” to mean an “age long pruning” or “an age long correction”, the length of the age, though being unspecified, may have an end. This view would be that the Gospel (or good news) is that Christ’s blood is sufficient and has redeemed the entire human race from eternal torment. Yet God will punish sin with severe, yet temporary, punishment or torment in Hell. Eventually all men will be reconciled to God leaving only the devil and his angels burning in the lake of fire. This presents a triumphant Gospel that succeeds in saving the entire human race. In this view Christ’s blood has sufficiently provided the atonement for all mankind’s salvation…yet those who chose to believe and obey Christ enter the Kingdom of God and escape the “everlasting punishment” or “age long correction” spoken of in Matthew 25:46. Please note, in this view, though all are saved, it is entirely through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Christ is indeed the Savior of the World. What are some of your thoughts? God bless.
     
  2. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Yes I have read of this view it is often presented in Agnostic writtings I dont agree with it completly, But think it is much closer to scripture than burning in Hell eternally, I have pointed out the greek before but Eternal Hell believers are commited to there beliefs.I do believe the Bible teaches down the middle I dont think everyone is saved, but I also do not believe in eternal burning in Hell
     
  3. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    (kriss;52975)
    Yes I have read of this view it is often presented in Agnostic writtings I dont agree with it completly, But think it is much closer to scripture than burning in Hell eternally, I have pointed out the greek before but Eternal Hell believers are commited to there beliefs.I do believe the Bible teaches down the middle I dont think everyone is saved, but I also do not believe in eternal burning in Hell
    Kriss, Just a few questions. I'm evaluating this belief, so I'm going to play the devil's advocate. Please share your thoughts with me. The Bible says, Romans 5:18.Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Do you believe that "all" means "all"? How would you reconcile this with what you believe? Colossians 1: 16 and 20.For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Do you believe thaet God reconcile "all things" to Himself or will some be lost forever?
     
  4. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    I wish someone would have told us all sooner. We can reject Jesus- live how we want and still trick God into giving us eternal life!Btw Kriss, your post threw me off. You said this is much closer in scripture than eternal burning. There would not be a hell if it was just a temporary judgement then..heaven. Thats just as silly as purgatory. Like you and I both believe Kriss- there is a second death. There is saved and not saved. So this idea that everyones already got a one way ticket to heaven is nonsense. Its a doctrine to make people feel comfortable.
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Red_Letters88;53194)
    I wish someone would have told us all sooner. We can reject Jesus- live how we want and still trick God into giving us eternal life!Btw Kriss, your post threw me off. You said this is much closer in scripture than eternal burning. There would not be a hell if it was just a temporary judgement then..heaven. Thats just as silly as purgatory. Like you and I both believe Kriss- there is a second death. There is saved and not saved. So this idea that everyones already got a one way ticket to heaven is nonsense. Its a doctrine to make people feel comfortable.
    Indeed, there is a second death. (Revelation 20:4) What kind of death? The soul. (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20) How did I know? Satan will lose his soul and He is already to die the second death. (Ezekiel 28:18) (In fact read Ezekiel 28) How do we know that not everybody is saved? (Revelation 20:8-10)
     
  6. Shadow

    Shadow New Member

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    (Aquila;52965)
    Praise the Lord everyone!I'm new here and please forgive me as I learn the rules. In a few threads around here I saw two different theological views being represented about Hell: Eternal Hell and Annihilationism. But there is a third view that is gaining some ground in Evangelical community. This view is known as Universal Reconciliationism or Universal Salvation. I thought that it might be interesting to discuss this view here also, especially in light of the ideas of Eternal Hell and Annihilationism. The Universal Salvation view holds that Hell is temporary and that all will eventually be saved. This view was believed by many during the first four centuries of the Church and was a view held by Origen. Down through Christian history this view was adopted in various forms by various theologians classified as "Christian Universalists". So here goes...Here are a few Scriptures this view is based upon...I Corinthians 15:22.For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. Romans 5:18. Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. John 12:32. And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Philippians 2: 10-11. That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth; And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. I Timothy 2: 1-6.I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time. Ephesians 1: 9-11. Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will: Colossians 1: 16 and 20. For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Acts 3: 20 and 21 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began. I John 2:2. And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Romans 8: 20-21. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God Hebrews 7:25. Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them. Titus 2:11. For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men, I Corinthians 4:5. Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord come, who both will bring to light the hidden things of darkness, and will make manifest the counsels of the hearts: and then shall every man have praise of God. Revelation 21: 4-5. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful. Also consider Christ's own parabolic descriptions of Hell...Luke 12:42-59:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.In the above parable Christ indicates that in eternity the unprepared and the unbelievers will be punished. However, their punishment varies in both intensity and duration. The “stripes” (or punishments) come to an end. Jesus also said…Matthew 18:23-35:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him.Here we see a man delivered to the tormentors “till” (or until) he has sufficiently paid for his wrong. Matthew 25:4125:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:Here we see that the lake of fire is to be the permanent abode of the devil and his angels. Then Jesus goes on to say…The Greek language also brings another possibility to the table. Jesus said, Matthew 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting (aionios) punishment (kolasis): but the righteous into life eternal.The term “aionios” doesn’t literally translate “everlasting” or “eternal”. The term “aionios” is based on the Greek root noun “aion” meaning “age” or “eon”. The term “aionios” is an adjective meaning “pertaining to the aion” or “age enduring”. The term is used for anything that doesn’t have a defined end or beginning. It could indeed be “eternal”…or it may also indicate a limited period of time whose duration is unknown. For example the hills and the mountains are referred to as being “everlasting” in Genesis 49:26 and Habakkuk 3:6. The Greek term used here is also “aionios”. These verses don’t mean that the mountains and hills are “eternal” but rather the time of their end or destruction is unknown. So here Jesus may be describing a period of time that whose duration is unknown or unrevealed. Also it’s important to note that the term “aionios” is an adjective that is to be understood in context of the noun it’s describing. For example if it speaks of God certainly the word is to be understood as “eternal” because God is eternal. However, if used in respect to mountains or hills it is to be understood as being “age enduring” or as “having an unknown end”. That brings us to the next point….It is the “punishment” that is described by the adjective “aionios”. The Greek term used here for “punishment” is “kolasis”. This is a very interesting Greek term that has puzzled Bible scholars for millennia. The term “kolasis” is based on the root word “kolazo” meaning to “prune”, “correct”, or “to make better”. So the Greek language here would allow the phrase “everlasting punishment” to mean an “age long pruning” or “an age long correction”, the length of the age, though being unspecified, may have an end. This view would be that the Gospel (or good news) is that Christ’s blood is sufficient and has redeemed the entire human race from eternal torment. Yet God will punish sin with severe, yet temporary, punishment or torment in Hell. Eventually all men will be reconciled to God leaving only the devil and his angels burning in the lake of fire. This presents a triumphant Gospel that succeeds in saving the entire human race. In this view Christ’s blood has sufficiently provided the atonement for all mankind’s salvation…yet those who chose to believe and obey Christ enter the Kingdom of God and escape the “everlasting punishment” or “age long correction” spoken of in Matthew 25:46. Please note, in this view, though all are saved, it is entirely through the shed blood of Jesus Christ. Christ is indeed the Savior of the World. What are some of your thoughts? God bless.
    I can only hope and pray this is true:pray3:, as I have spent a few days reading about this and to me it makes more sense than calvinism :eek: or armininism which seems to be the most prominant christian views on this forum (and they clearly are not compatible with one another)As this is my first post I cannot post links until my fourth post,but have copied and pasted something I read about this belief
    Scripture references are from the New King James Version of the Bible unless stated otherwise.Do you profess to be a Bible believing Christian? All Bible believing Christians fall into one of three categories of Christian beliefs, known as Calvinism, Arminianism and Universalism. These are the three distinct and separate schools of Christian theology. With regard to SALVATION, every professing Christian inevitably falls into one of them, whether he understands or is aware of these terms or not. So if you claim to be a Bible believing Christian, after you remove all of your denominational clothing, you are a Calvinist Christian, or an Arminian Christian or a Universalist Christian.Each belief system claims to be biblically based, and theologians have argued and debated the issues related to each of them for centuries. They have been unable to reconcile any of these groups because they are irreconcilable, and there is no middle ground between them with respect to salvation.Calvinism was the most dominant and widely held view of Protestant Christians from the time of the Reformation for hundreds of centuries up until the last century. Arminianism has now overtaken Calvinism by a long way, and currently most Christian churches are Arminian in their belief. There is sufficient historical evidence to show that Universalism was the most widely held view for the first five centuries following the death of Jesus Christ. However, this all changed when the Roman Catholic Church pronounced an anathema in 573 A.D. on anyone who believed in Universalism. Currently, Universalism is a very small minority view, perhaps no more than 2% of Bible believing Christians.There are five points in Calvinism, five points in Arminianism, and even five points in Universalism, which outline each of these belief systems. The purpose of this chapter is to highlight the core differences between these belief systems, without a detailed complicated theological analysis of each point.What is Calvinism?It is a system of theological belief promoted by a French man, John Calvin (1509-1564), and expressed in the document called Institutes of the Christian Religion. Calvinism laid the foundation for the Reformed Theology of the Reformation period. Calvinism is the basis for the doctrine of many Baptist, Presbyterian, Anglican and Reformed churches.According to Calvin, God predestined before the beginning of the world, to save a certain group of people called God's Elect. God's sovereign will for His Elect cannot be resisted or thwarted, as His irresistible grace ensures that all of them will willingly accept Jesus Christ at some point in their lives before they die. The Non-Elect cannot come to Christ because natural fallen man is totally sinful and depraved. Salvation is entirely the work of God from start to finish. All believers (the Elect) will go to heaven, but all unbelievers (the Non-Elect) will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire (hell), where they will be tortured forever.Some Calvinist Christians believe in annihilism instead of endless torture.What is Arminianism?It is a system of theological belief promoted by a Dutch man, Jacobus Arminius (1560-1609). Arminius started out as a strict Calvinist, but later changed his views as stated in the document called, 'The Remonstrance'. Arminianism is the theological basis for Methodists, Wesleyans, Nazarenes, Pentecostals, Free Will Baptists, Holiness churches and many charismatic churches. Roman Catholicism is also basically Arminian in its belief.According to Arminius, Christ died for all people and God wills all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. However, God's will can be frustrated and thwarted by man and God's grace can be resisted by man's freewill. This is because ultimately it is left to each person to decide whether he wishes to be saved or not. Therefore, in order to go to heaven each person must choose to accept Jesus Christ before he dies. All those who die without choosing Christ will be judged and cast into the Lake of Fire (hell), where they will remain to be tortured forever.Some Arminian Christians believe in annihilism instead of endless torture.What is Biblical Universalism?Origen of Alexandria (185-254 A.D.) is the earliest Christian theologian known to have written about Universalism that eventually everyone will be saved. However, we do not believe that Origen had the full revelation of true Biblical Universal Salvation.According to the Bible, Jesus Christ died for the sins of the whole world. God wills all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the Truth. God is the Saviour of ALL people and He will save ALL people. He is working out His plan of salvation for all people in Ages, in His time and in His order. God first saves His Elect, whom He predestined from the foundation of the world, to believe in Jesus Christ during this life, before they die. They are the First Fruits who have a special salvation, and they will rise as the Bride of Christ in the First Resurrection.All people who die as unbelievers (the Non-Elect) will be resurrected in the Second Resurrection when they will be judged in the Lake of Fire, during the Great White Throne Judgement Age. This fiery yet loving judgement of God will lead to the fear of God, humbling of hearts and repentance. The Bride of Christ, who is the First Fruits, will play a vital role in helping unbelievers to repent and believe. Thus, the Bride of Christ united with Christ as His Wife will give birth to more fruits or Second Fruits. Ultimately, everyone without exception will freely and thankfully accept and believe in Jesus Christ and be reconciled to Father God.Which God are you serving?The God of Calvinism sacrificed his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for his Elect only, and he predestined only his Elect to be saved. This must also mean that he predestined, knowingly and willingly , to cast the vast majority of mankind (the Non-Elect) to be tortured in hell forever. This makes the God of Calvinism an evil god, infinitely and unimaginably more evil than Hitler could ever be.The God of Arminianism sacrificed his son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for all people, and he wills all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth, but he has made himself helpless to save all by allowing man's freewill to override his will. Against his will, the God of Arminianism is forced to throw the majority of mankind into hell to be tortured forever because, for one reason or another, they failed to accept Jesus Christ in this life before they died. Even worse than that, the God of Arminianism knowingly and willingly created human beings, with his full foreknowledge that the vast majority of them would reject salvation and end up being tortured in hell forever. This makes the God of Arminianism both an evil god, as evil as the god of Calvinism, and a weak god who allows Satan and sinful men to override his will in salvation.The God of the Bible sacrificed His son Jesus Christ to die on the cross for all people and He wills all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. He has unlimited wisdom, power and love to save all people in His time and in His order. Therefore, ALL people will eventually freely and thankfully accept and receive the free gift of salvation in this life or the next life, and be reconciled to God through the finished work of Jesus Christ on the cross. This makes the God of the Bible an all-powerful, wise, merciful, loving, gracious and forgiving God.Calvinism and Arminianism are Unbiblical BeliefsChristians who hold to Calvinist and Arminian beliefs of salvation are sincere people but they are sincerely wrong. Traditional Christianity, because of its long established and entrenched belief in the doctrine of Eternal Torture in Hell, is unable to accept at face value, many clear scriptures in the Bible such as Colossians 1:15-20 and 1 Timothy 4:10, which uphold the truth of Universal Salvation. Please refer to Chapter 3 'Universal Reconciliation Scriptures' for a list and commentary on fourteen of many such scriptures.Calvinism and Arminianism give absurd reasoning in defence of their unbiblical beliefs. They argue that it is God’s justice which causes Him to throw multiple billions of people into a hell of Eternal Torture.If this were true, then it would be the strangest and cruelest type of justice one could ever imagine. What type of justice is it for an all-knowing, all-loving God who knows the end from the beginning, and foreknew that man would sin, then to create multiple billions of people in His own image, who would end up being punished by Him eternally for their sins committed in the few years of their very temporary existence in this life?Thankfully, the true God of the Bible is an absolutely just God, whose just plan will ensure that ultimately all people will be reconciled to Himself because of the loving sacrifice of Jesus Christ, whom He sent to die on the cross for the sins of the whole world. (1 John 2:2)Calvinism and Arminianism further argue that Jesus Christ Himself preached more about hell than any other person in the Bible. What Jesus actually spoke about was gehenna, not hell. The Greek word gehenna has been mistranslated as hell in most but not all versions of the Bible. Jesus never spoke about a hell of endless torture. Our Lord and the Bible do not support the traditional Christian teaching of hell. For full details, please refer to Chapter 15 'Hell' in the Bible.Arminianism exalts man’s fallen sinful will above God’s sovereign will in salvation. It argues that God allows the majority of mankind, multiple billions of people, to reject His salvation and choose hell as God cannot violate man’s freewill. It falsely reasons that this has to be the case because God has not created us as robots, but as individuals with freewill. Arminianism fails to understand that God’s sovereign will for ALL in salvation does not make anybody a robot, but it enables the person to make the right choice. God's will liberates the person from slavery to sin, to real freedom in Christ, from being a child of Satan to being a child of God. (John 8:34-36) The problem with Arminianism is not that we humans do not have freewill, but that it exalts man’s limited freewill above God’s sovereign will.Our salvation is totally, one hundred percent, the work of God from start to finish. Nobody can come to Jesus Christ unless Father God first draws her or him to Christ, and when Father draws a person to Christ, she or he will respond and come to Christ. (John 6:37, 44) This is not a robotic response, but a thankful and grateful response, as the Holy Spirit works in the person’s heart and grants her or him repentance and the gift of faith to believe in the sacrifice of Jesus Christ.God wills all people to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth. (I Timothy 2:3-6) God is carrying out His will in His own time and order. (1 Corinthians 15: 22-23) God is the Saviour of all people, but especially of those who believe. (1 Timothy 4:10) God has a Plan to save all people. Let nobody think that God’s will in salvation for all can be frustrated or stopped by Satan or man’s freewill.Calvinism and Arminianism have not understood the fullness of God's Plan, which He is working out in biblical Ages, to ultimately save ALL people to inherit the Kingdom of God of the New Heaven and the New Earth.ConclusionMake no mistake about it, you are profoundly affected by how you understand these three belief systems. Your understanding of God's sovereignty, His love, His justice, His righteousness, His grace, His forgiveness, His character and above all the very gospel of Jesus Christ are all fundamentally governed and coloured by each belief system.People who believe that God will torture unbelievers in hell forever lack the spirit of forgiveness, which Jesus had when He prayed to the Father on the cross and asked Him to forgive His very murderers.Luke 23:34Then Jesus said, "Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do."Only people who believe in Biblical Universalism have the same spirit of forgiveness that Jesus had, and they understand how Father God will completely answer Jesus' prayer for the forgiveness of His murderers.Chapter 12 'The Great White Throne Judgement' fully explains how and when Father God will answer Jesus' prayer.
    However if it's not true, then I have to conclude that Calvinism :eek: must be true that if God is Omnipotent, all knowing and knows what happens before it happens, then he must have planned it that way before the foundation of the world, and most people are destined to be lost foreverMany have said it's God's prerogative to save whom he will and send to eternal damnation whom he will, my point is WHY must that punishment be eternal, what purpose would it serve???, what disappoints and horrifies me, is that you get people like Fred Phelps that would LOVE for that to happen???I personally would not wish an everlasting hell on my worst enemy, and am finding it extremely hard to accept it, let alone be able to perceive God as lovingIf I had a choice between1) I get a million dollars and a place in heaven for myself2) That no people are going to burning in hell forever )I can still accept that they may be thrown in the lake of fire, but will one day die (some may die sooner than others), I can still live with that because at least someday it will end I would DEFINATELY, UNDOUBTABLY choose option 2Sorry for the long post, I can only hope there are some that will agree with me
     
  7. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Kriss, Just a few questions. I'm evaluating this belief, so I'm going to play the devil's advocate. Please share your thoughts with me. The Bible says, Romans 5:18.Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life. Do you believe that "all" means "all"? How would you reconcile this with what you believe? Colossians 1: 16 and 20.For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven. Do you believe thaet God reconcile "all things" to Himself or will some be lost forever?
    Romans 5:18 "Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of One the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life.""The offence of one judgment", is to say Adam's sin brought spiritual death upon all men; and through Christ came righteousness to all men. We receive that righteousness only because we have asked for that free gift. "Justification of life", means "eternal life is given" because all the charges of sin against us by the law were taken from us, and we can now stand before the throne of God, "not guilty".The Word "free gift" is only free in the sense that each of us do not have to pay for the sins we committed. The price had to be paid and it was a dear price paid with Christ death on the cross. God required the blood of the pure and innocent as the payment, and that price could only be met by Jesus,
     
  8. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I wish someone would have told us all sooner. We can reject Jesus- live how we want and still trick God into giving us eternal life!Btw Kriss, your post threw me off. You said this is much closer in scripture than eternal burning. There would not be a hell if it was just a temporary judgement then..heaven. Thats just as silly as purgatory. Like you and I both believe Kriss- there is a second death. There is saved and not saved. So this idea that everyones already got a one way ticket to heaven is nonsense. Its a doctrine to make people feel comfortable.
    What I was refering to is that we are all changed into incoruptable spirit bodies at the second coming, So we will all experience Gods kingdom here on earth, I also was thinking of the second chances during the millieum I believe the deserving get this not all. That doesnt mean that I do not also except a hell for those deserving it. No one gets a free ride, You live in sin you will suffer hell. 1Cr 15:50 ¶ Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 1Cr 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1Cr 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. I just do not believe in a burning in Hell forever but rather a second death where one ceases to exist as we are told both death and Hell are destroyed
     
  9. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I can only hope and pray this is true:pray3:, as I have spent a few days reading about this and to me it makes more sense than calvinism :eek: or armininism which seems to be the most prominant christian views on this forum (and they clearly are not compatible with one another)Sorry for the long post, I can only hope there are some that will agree with me
    thank you for your post Shadow I do agree with you on on Calvinism and Armininism
     
  10. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    I wish someone would have told us all sooner. We can reject Jesus- live how we want and still trick God into giving us eternal life!Btw Kriss, your post threw me off. You said this is much closer in scripture than eternal burning. There would not be a hell if it was just a temporary judgement then..heaven. Thats just as silly as purgatory. Like you and I both believe Kriss- there is a second death. There is saved and not saved. So this idea that everyones already got a one way ticket to heaven is nonsense. Its a doctrine to make people feel comfortable.
    If one converted to Christianity merely to avoid Hell, I hardly think they converted for the right reasons. One clearly has to have a love for what God has done for them…not merely fear the consequences of not believing in him. Remember that the idea of temporary judgment must be viewed through the eyes of the eternal. What is temporary to an eternal God? One may suffer in Hell for ages and ages if necessary to fulfill their punishment…yet still be set free in the unforeseeable future. Such wouldn’t be silly, for rather one spends eternity or two weeks in Hell, Hell is Hell. It's also important to note that Augustine and others embraced the theory of Purgatory because the various Scriptures given that point to universal salvation required them to create such a place in their theological system. Also your response is philosophical. Can you address the scriptures where Christ indicates that the punishment in Hell is limited or the verses of scripture indicating universal reconciliation?
     
  11. Red_Letters88

    Red_Letters88 New Member

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    Read Jags post three down- its not doctrine- its scripture.
     
  12. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    If one converted to Christianity merely to avoid Hell, I hardly think they converted for the right reasons. One clearly has to have a love for what God has done for them…not merely fear the consequences of not believing in him. Remember that the idea of temporary judgment must be viewed through the eyes of the eternal. What is temporary to an eternal God? One may suffer in Hell for ages and ages if necessary to fulfill their punishment…yet still be set free in the unforeseeable future. Such wouldn’t be silly, for rather one spends eternity or two weeks in Hell, Hell is Hell. It's also important to note that Augustine and others embraced the theory of Purgatory because the various Scriptures given that point to universal salvation required them to create such a place in their theological system. Also your response is philosophical. Can you address the scriptures where Christ indicates that the punishment in Hell is limited or the verses of scripture indicating universal reconciliation?
    Wait a second for one thing Augustine was one of the first to start really changing the Word and doctrines for political reasons. So because he embraced it doesnt mean much. Second let me explain what the scripture says, In case I miss led you. One doesnt come to Christ for fear of Hell one comes to Christ for love of the Father and what that does in ones life, Second let me tell you the tribulation is about the gathering of all souls, Therefore there is no shades of grey You will either choose to follow Antichrst or christ your choice, but you will choose.Then at his coming all are changed into incorruptible bodies and are taught the truth by Christ and his priest right here on earth for a 1000 years (one day in Gods time) During this time there is a second chance (its this second chance, the doctrine you are reading came from and was corupted to all saved ... it is not all..... its all that are deserving)those that were mislead but are good at heart, those who never heard the Word,God always knows one heart and it is the state of your heart that will decide which get a second chance, There is also a hell for Satan/antichrist those who choose to follow him,people with evil in there hearts, after the 1000 thousand years Satan is loosed for a short time to test those who were taught in the 1000years, However there is no grace offered during this testing period you are judged on your WorksAfter this testing all that fail will die the second death witch is the death of your soul that is one ceases to exist wiped out of memory gone, And then death and hell are destroyed and everyone in hell along with it. And there is a new heaven and new earth with no sin. Christs never asked anyone to come to him for fear of hell that is mans teaching a religious doctrine of men, Christs says above all I want your love, It is your own choices and your sins that send you to hell not God. We have a world today where no one wants to accept responsibility for our actions the fact is there is consequences to pay for all choices you make like it or not there is no free rides the question is what ride do you want take.
     
  13. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    Kriss…Regarding Hell Jesus said…Luke 12:42-59:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.Clearly Christ’s parable indicates that the punishments of the wicked are measurable in terms of “many” and “few”. An eternity of beatings is an eternity of beatings regardless of how one cuts it. For one to be beaten with “many stripes” and another with “few” there must be a limited duration of punishment. Christ’s own words demand that Hell be a place of just retribution for sin…not an eternal torture chamber. Jesus also said, John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Is Christ not capable of drawing “all men” unto himself by virtue of his being lifted up upon the cross as he promised?The book of Acts tells us, Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.Christ’s mission was to provide a vicarious atonement for the restitution of “all things”. Doesn’t “all” mean “all”? Here is a promise written by Paul, I Corinthians 15:22For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.In Adam all spiritually died by virtue of his sin, regardless of time, place, choice, disposition, etc. However, in like fashion “all” (and “all” means “all”) will be made spiritually alive. John wrote,I John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.Christ died to save all men. Universalists believe that Christ’s death on the cross will ended fulfill its intended mission. Some will find the narrow path of life in Christ, the majority will follow the wide way of sin and destruction, destroying their lives and entering into everlasting punishment. This punishment isn’t “everlasting” in the sense of duration but in the sense of effect. You see the term punishment in Matthew 25:46 is “kolasis” from the root “kolazo”, meaning to “prune”, “correct”, or “make right” in the sense of being made better. This would seem to dovetail with Christ’s teachings about the punishments of Hell being limited in Luke 12:42-48. In Revelation 21 John writes,Revelation 21:8But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.This is traditionally interpreted as being their destinies. However, one’s “part” can be one’s “share” or “allotment”, not requiring that one’s share of time spent be forever in duration. Origen and many early Christians and schools believed in and taught Universal Salvation. However, as the theological schools of Rome gained dominance these Christian voices and schools were silence with anathemas and declarations of heresy. Here’s a question to consider….What purpose would an everlasting Hell were people burn forever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever, and ever serve? Would a God of Love burn a 16 year old boy or girl forever and ever and ever merely because they didn’t have the proper “religious” affiliation? A theological view of Hell being a place of temporary retribution fits the nature of God and the idea of just retribution for sin, what the Bible calls, “according to one’s works”.
     
  14. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Thats exactly my point we are closer to agreeing than you think I do not believe there is a burning in hell forever the word used for "forever" means an age that is till the End of this age (world) there are three ages one was, one is, one to come, I agree that God would never torture someone forever, The temporary hell, is taken from this idea it is this age that is temporary the second death happens at the End of this age and there is no burning torture for ever Hell itself is destroyed as are the souls in it and this World they will not even be remembered much less tortured forever they are gone.The millieum is for a second chance lets say Sally is a good person with a good heart basically follows most of the commandments,but everything she had heard about Christ from men left her doubting whether she believed in him or not. Is she saved? NO! does she deserve burning in hell forever? NoCould she have read the Word herself instead of listening to men? YesSo does she get a second chance to be taught the truth? yes.But then to be fair she must pass the same tests all of us believers had to passGod is always fair ...Thats why Satan is loosed for a short time. If Sally overcomes she will saved.Now lets take Jack who has murdered someone and is not sorry in his heart for what he did just sorry he got caught for appeance sake he claims to reborn and believe in Christ but in his heart of hearts they are just words. Does he deserve a second chance ? No! he will be in Hell until God destroys hell along with him and he wont even be remembered he will cease to exist,God will decide who gets a second chance by what is in their hearts, they may be naked because they have no works but if their heart has good in it they get a second chance because God is not willing that any of his children should parish. But only the believers that overcome in the flesh are blessed and become the first resurrected that is not subject to die the second death.
     
  15. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    Kriss....Read what Christ said about his mission...John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth (crucified), will draw all men unto me. According to your position you believe that he will essentially fail. While you do not hold to an eternal Hell of torments, you believe that God will fail to redeem his creation and destroy vast numbers of mankind forever. But the Bible says, Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.Colossians 1:20And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile ALL things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.Your position causes God to fail in restoring and reconciling all things unto himself. Will God be triumphant over sin in the lives of all men leaving Satan having won nothing....or will God fail to restore all men leaving Satan to have won significant victories? This salvation, while the Church is the firstfruits and shall rule and reign with Christ over all creation, this salvation will be worked in all that God might be all in all. For the Bible says, I Timothy 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.I John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.God's biblical salvation is of a universal scope, after all is said and done, none are lost. Yes, most will face just retribution for sin, but Hell's purpose is an everlasting correction of the soul not eternal destruction or torture. Notice how Christ is capable of working out salvation in the lives of all men...even after death...Ephesians 4:7-32But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) 1 Peter 3:18-20 18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; 20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.You see, Christ is capable of decending into Hell and delivering the souls of those in captivity...even after death. He is the same yesterday, today, and forever more. If he can save one in life...he can save one in death. Once one has been sufficiently punished in Hell according to his or her works, Christ himself delivers them from their torments, reconciling them unto God forever, and the increase of his government shall be without end. And ultimately all creation will be reconciled to God accept the Devil and his angels who will suffer torments in the lake of fire, which was created specifically for the devil and his angels. If God destroys a significant portion of his creation, he's proven incapable of redeeming mankind as a whole unto himself. Yet the universal truth is that not only is God capable...but God shall do so. Sinners are to be warned that everlasting punishment awaits them should they continue in sin...however, every knee will one day bow and every tongue will one day confess. They will either pass through God's everlasting punishments or they will escape the judgment of this age through faith in and obedience to Christ. So I cannot embrace the Annihilationist proposition. God's Word demands that God reconcile all things unto himself...that precludes eternal destruction.Behold...I show you a mystery...Matthew 13:33Another parable spake he unto them; The kingdom of heaven is like unto leaven, which a woman took, and hid in three measures of meal, till the whole was leavened.
     
  16. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    Well I guess you will have to believe what you do, but sense you said you were still forming your opinion .....I will tell you I do not ... see it as you are presenting I dont think any veres you presented proves what you are saying, I think you reading into them something that is not there draw all too him: doesnt mean take away one's free will or push by force,but rather that we are drawn in a direction, reconcile all things: pull all all things,right,back together, make it perfect...this does not imply that the imperfect will not be done away with..... it fact quite the oppisite God offers grace to all but he also gave everyone free will to choose whether or not to accept that Grace. If some do not choose him it is not God who failed but the person making the choice God clearly tells you fear not him who can kill your body but fear him that kill your soulMat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.Without a soul there is nothing, and universal salvation is clearly not taught in the Word, as the above verses show.Also think on this what would be the point of this flesh age! Why kill Christ if we are all going to be saved any way what was the point. ???????????All souls were created at the same time we all were created as spirit /Soul bodies it is this our natrual state to which we will return at his coming(1 Cor.15)So we were all already with him its why he foreknew us, So why bother with the whole flesh Christ thing if he was just going to save everyone anyway?????????Also just because he visited Hell to offer salvation,that was not available before the cross doesnt mean all there were saved
     
  17. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    Well I guess you will have to believe what you do, but sense you said you were still forming your opinion .....I will tell you I do not ... see it as you are presenting I dont think any veres you presented proves what you are saying, I think you reading into them something that is not there draw all too him: doesnt mean take away one's free will or push by force,but rather that we are drawn in a direction,
    Let’s look at the verse…John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. First, let’s look at the term, “draw”. The Greek word here is, “helkuo”. It means, “to draw, drag off”. And Jesus specifies who he will “draw” or “drag”…ALL men. Where? Into a direction? No. He said, “unto me.” I think you’re glorifying “free will” to the point of making God negligent. For example, a loving father would grab his child, hold them close, and drag them out of a burning home…even if that child wanted to go back in for a stuffed animal. A loving father would override their child free will to secure their safety. Imagine with me now, picture a father who is leading his child out of a burning home and that child suddenly wants to turn around and go back upstairs for a stuffed animal. This father dares not override his child’s free will, so he allows his child to go prancing back upstairs amidst the rapidly growing smoke and flames. Do you picture God as this kind of father?
    reconcile all things: pull all all things,right,back together, make it perfect...this does not imply that the imperfect will not be done away with..... it fact quite the oppisite
    Let’s look at the verse…Colossians 1:16-29:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.Reconcile what? “ALL THINGS” unto himself. There are no exceptions. God doesn’t loose a single battle, and sin and Satan don’t win a single victory.
    God offers grace to all but he also gave everyone free will to choose whether or not to accept that Grace.
    Yes, but God is the same yesterday, today, and forevermore. Those who enter everlasting punishment, after having been sufficiently punished, may cry out and turn toward their savior who has the keys to death and hell. The Bible doesn’t say that once one dies they don’t have another chance. In fact the Bible indicates the opposite, when Christ died he descended into the earth and preached the gospel to those who were disobedient going all the way back to the time of Noah. Then ascending into Heaven, he took them home, taking captivity captive. These were “saved” after spending significant time in hell. God will reconcile all things to himself.
    If some do not choose him it is not God who failed but the person making the choice God clearly tells you fear not him who can kill your body but fear him that kill your soul
    Countless numbers of people have never had a choice my brother. Indeed, many who refused to choose God did so in ignorance of eternity’s reality. And God is capable of saving them, for it is written, Philippians 2: 10-11That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Yes God is more than just the savior of them that believe in this life. Jesus is the savior of all men…I Timothy 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.Mat 10:28 And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell.This says that God is “able” not that God “will”. We do see that God promises to reconcile all things, Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    Rev 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.[/B]Rev 20:6 Blessed and holy [is] he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.Rev 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.Rev 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
    Yes, they that overcome shall escape the everlasting punishments of God’s “kolasis”, which these Scriptures describe. This is the word used for “punishment” in Matthew 25:46. It is based on the root word “kolazo” meaning to “to prune” or “to rehabilitate”, “to make better”. They that overcome escape this process. Jesus mentions this in his teachings…Luke 12:42-59:42 And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season? 12:43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. 12:44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath. 12:45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken; 12:46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers. 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord’s will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes12:48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.Matthew 18:23-35:23 Therefore is the kingdom of heaven likened unto a certain king, which would take account of his servants. 18:24 And when he had begun to reckon, one was brought unto him, which owed him ten thousand talents. 18:25 But forasmuch as he had not to pay, his lord commanded him to be sold, and his wife, and children, and all that he had, and payment to be made. 18:26 The servant therefore fell down, and worshipped him, saying, Lord, have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 18:27 Then the lord of that servant was moved with compassion, and loosed him, and forgave him the debt. 18:28 But the same servant went out, and found one of his fellowservants, which owed him an hundred pence: and he laid hands on him, and took him by the throat, saying, Pay me that thou owest. 18:29 And his fellowservant fell down at his feet, and besought him, saying, Have patience with me, and I will pay thee all. 18:30 And he would not: but went and cast him into prison, till he should pay the debt. 18:31 So when his fellowservants saw what was done, they were very sorry, and came and told unto their lord all that was done. 18:32 Then his lord, after that he had called him, said unto him, O thou wicked servant, I forgave thee all that debt, because thou desiredst me: 18:33 Shouldest not thou also have had compassion on thy fellowservant, even as I had pity on thee? 18:34 And his lord was wroth, and delivered him to the tormentors, till he should pay all that was due unto him. Matthew 5:25:-265:25 Agree with thine adversary quickly, whiles thou art in the way with him; lest at any time the adversary deliver thee to the judge, and the judge deliver thee to the officer, and thou be cast into prison. 5:26 Verily I say unto thee, Thou shalt by no means come out thence, till thou hast paid the uttermost farthing.
    Without a soul there is nothing, and universal salvation is clearly not taught in the Word, as the above verses show.
    You are ignoring clear Scripture. It is written…John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.Colossians 1:16-29:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.Philippians 2: 10-11That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.I Timothy 4:10For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe.
    Also think on this what would be the point of this flesh age! Why kill Christ if we are all going to be saved any way what was the point. ???????????
    I ask you…why Christ’s sacrifice for all men if he will fail to save all men?
    All souls were created at the same time we all were created as spirit /Soul bodies it is this our natrual state to which we will return at his coming(1 Cor.15)So we were all already with him its why he foreknew us, So why bother with the whole flesh Christ thing if he was just going to save everyone anyway?????????
    Colossians 1:16-29:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.It’s that sacrificial atonement that provides the salvation for all men. Christ died to save all men…will he fail????
    Also just because he visited Hell to offer salvation,that was not available before the cross doesnt mean all there were saved
    It is written…Ephesians 4:7-32But unto every one of us is given grace according to the measure of the gift of Christ. 8Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. 9(Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? 10He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)You see, when Christ ascended he led all of captivity captive. Hell was empty, all human souls were secured. I have a question for you brother. Do you have unsaved loved ones? Or have you lost an unsaved loved ones? Read this Scripture slowly…I John 2:2And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for our's only, but also for the sins of the whole world.Now read it inserting these points…I John 2:2And he is the propitiation for (Kriss’) sins: and not for (Kriss’) only, but also for the sins of (insert loved one’s name). That my good friend is the everlasting hope of the Gospel (the good news). Jesus is a Savior who loves all men and gave his life for all men. Give him praise and glory!
     
  18. Christina

    Christina New Member

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    I have read the entire Bible on more occasions than I can count and there is no teaching of Universal Salvation We can go over every scripture one at a time and it still wont matter you can read whatever you want to see into them but that doesnt mean its right, I do not have time to go over every scripture you have quoted now but you have not answered the core question Why send Christ at all, why have a flesh age God could just have forgiven everyonr there sins and ended it, I could point out you are not taking into account some of these verse are talking about the plan of the ages and his second coming. Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." This applies not only to the living in the flesh at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, but also to all souls that go the the Father, when they die in the flesh body.I know we are told there is no sin in the thrid earth age and that Satan and all those mentioned in Rev 21:8 are destroyed. I also know there are no condradictions in Gods Word you want to believe all those that follow Satan, all the murders, rapists, and evil at heart will be saved I guess you will have to believe it but it is not what is taught.
     
  19. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    I have read the entire Bible on more occasions than I can count and there is no teaching of Universal Salvation We can go every scripture one at a time and it still wont matter you can read whatever you want to see into them but that doesnt mean its right, I do not have time to go over every scripture but you have not answered the core question Why send Christ at all, why have a flesh age God could just have forgiven everyonr there sins and ended it, I could point out you are not taking into account some of these verse are talking about the plan of the ages and his second coming. Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." This applies not only to the living in the flesh at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, but also to all souls that go the the Father, when they die in the flesh body.I know we are told there is no sin in the thrid earth age and that Satan and all those mentioned in Rev 21:8 are destroyed. I also know there are no condradictions in Gods Word you want to believe all those that follow Satan, all the murders, rapists, and evil at heart will be saved I guess you will have to believe it but it is not what is taught.
    It's true. Kriss has it right. They are plenty of scriptures where it says that the wicked shall perish. (John 3:16, Psalm 37:20) Yes, scripture says that that Christ is the Saviour of all men (Acts 4:12, I Timothy 4:12) but scripture also says that not everybody wants Christ. Hence the reason there will be a second death. (Revelation 20:14)Use your common sense people, look at this world already...
     
  20. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    I have read the entire Bible on more occasions than I can count and there is no teaching of Universal Salvation We can go over every scripture one at a time and it still wont matter you can read whatever you want to see into them but that doesnt mean its right,
    I commend you for your Bible reading, however, many throughout the centuries have read the Bible all the way through and have entirely missed doctrinal truths found in Scripture.
    I do not have time to go over every scripture you have quoted now but you have not answered the core question Why send Christ at all, why have a flesh age God could just have forgiven everyonr there sins and ended it,
    Had Christ not come and sacrificed his life for mankind all of mankind would be eternally separated from God. But on account of His blood, all things will eventually be reconciled unto God. Satan will have one nothing.
    I could point out you are not taking into account some of these verse are talking about the plan of the ages and his second coming.
    The second coming is an entirely different subject. I assure you that God will punish evil doers. However, God will bring them to their knees...not revel in their eternal torment. God isn't running a torture chamber, God isn't of the same character as Saddam Hussein. God's punishment is intended to be redemptive...not sadistic. The plan of the ages will end with all creation being brought into reconciliation with God.
    Romans 14:11; "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." This applies not only to the living in the flesh at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, but also to all souls that go the the Father, when they die in the flesh body.
    Please show me chapter and verse for this idea. I contend that it is speaking of the consummation of all things...I Corinthians 15:27-2827For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess when all things are put under his feet and all things are subdued unto him. And in that day the Son will be subject to the Father and God may be "all" in "all". Here we see the reconciliation of all of creation.
    I know we are told there is no sin in the thrid earth age and that Satan and all those mentioned in Rev 21:8 are destroyed.
    God isn't Shiva the Destroyer of Hindu faith. God is a savior, a loving God. God will not allow sin and Satan to destroy his children. None are expendable. God is and will be VICTORIOUS against sin and Satan. If sin and Satan succeeds in securing the eternal torment or destruction of just one soul...God's salvific purpose was defeated in that individual and God failed to be all in that one...but Scripture says that God will be all in all. Praise God! Please note that in Revelation 22 the wicked are mentioned again...they are not destroyed in chapter 21. Notice what it reads...Revelation 22:14-21Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.Notice that the sinful are outside of the eternal city...but no lake of fire is mentioned. While these are not permitted to enter the city, they are no longer in the lake of fire and are reigned over for all eternity.
    I also know there are no condradictions in Gods Word you want to believe all those that follow Satan, all the murders, rapists, and evil at heart will be saved I guess you will have to believe it but it is not what is taught.
    Does God forgive murderers, rapists, the evil at heart and save them today??? Does God ever change???Who holds the keys to death and hell???Who descended into hell and redeemed those souls who were once disobedient going back to the time of Noah???Who is capable of delivering a soul confined in the lowest hell???Psalm 86:13For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.Who turns men to destruction...and causes them to return again???Psalm 90:3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.God is a restorer not a destroyer. Lamentations 3:31-66 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.God is big enough to redeem all men from death and hell. How big is your God?
     
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