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Universal Reconcilation? (Christian Universalism)

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Aquila, Jun 18, 2008.

  1. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    ]I have read the entire Bible on more occasions than I can count and there is no teaching of Universal Salvation We can go over every scripture one at a time and it still wont matter you can read whatever you want to see into them but that doesnt mean its right,
    I commend you for your Bible reading, however, many throughout the centuries have read the Bible all the way through and have entirely missed doctrinal truths found in Scripture. (Kriss;53413)
    I do not have time to go over every scripture you have quoted nowbut you have not answered the core questionWhy send Christ at all, why have a flesh age God could just have forgiven everyonr there sins and ended it,
    Had Christ not come and sacrificed his life for mankind all of mankind would be eternally separated from God. But on account of His blood, all things will eventually be reconciled unto God. Satan will have one nothing.(Kriss;53413)
    I could point out you are not taking into account some of these verse are talking about the plan of the ages and his second coming.
    The second coming is an entirely different subject. I assure you that God will punish evil doers. However, God will bring them to their knees...not revel in their eternal torment. God isn't running a torture chamber, God isn't of the same character as Saddam Hussein. God's punishment is intended to be redemptive...not sadistic. The plan of the ages will end with all creation being brought into reconciliation with God.(Kriss;53413)
    "For it is written, "As I live, saith the Lord, every knee shall bow to Me, and every tongue shall confess to God." This applies not only to the living in the flesh at the sounding of the seventh trumpet, but also to all souls that go the the Father, when they die in the flesh body.
    Please show me chapter and verse for this idea. I contend that it is speaking of the consummation of all things...I Corinthians 15:27-2827For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all. Every knee shall bow and every tongue confess when all things are put under his feet and all things are subdued unto him. And in that day the Son will be subject to the Father and God may be "all" in "all". Here we see the reconciliation of all of creation.(Kriss;53413)
    I know we are told there is no sin in the thrid earth age and that Satan and all those mentioned in Rev 21:8 are destroyed.
    God isn't Shiva the Destroyer of Hindu faith. God is a savior, a loving God. God will not allow sin and Satan to destroy his children. None are expendable. God is and will be VICTORIOUS against sin and Satan. If sin and Satan succeeds in securing the eternal torment or destruction of just one soul...God's salvific purpose was defeated in that individual and God failed to be all in that one...but Scripture says that God will be all in all. Praise God! Please note that in Revelation 22 the wicked are mentioned again...they are not destroyed in chapter 21. Notice what it reads...Revelation 22:14-21Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.Notice that the sinful are outside of the eternal city...but no lake of fire is mentioned. While these are not permitted to enter the city, they are no longer in the lake of fire and are reigned over for all eternity. (Kriss;53413)
    I also know there are no condradictions in Gods Word you want to believe all those that follow Satan, all the murders, rapists, and evil at heart will be saved I guess you will have to believe it but it is not what is taught.
    Does God forgive murderers, rapists, the evil at heart and save them today??? Does God ever change???Who holds the keys to death and hell???Who descended into hell and redeemed those souls who were once disobedient going back to the time of Noah???Who is capable of delivering a soul confined in the lowest hell???Psalm 86:13For great is thy mercy toward me: and thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell.Who turns men to destruction...and causes them to return again???Psalm 90:3Thou turnest man to destruction; and sayest, Return, ye children of men.God is a restorer not a destroyer. Lamentations 3:31-66 For the Lord will not cast off for ever:32 But though he cause grief, yet will he have compassion according to the multitude of his mercies.33 For he doth not afflict willingly nor grieve the children of men.God is big enough to redeem all men from death and hell. How big is your God?Why am I not surprised? You are missing quite a bit. Yes Christ is the Saviour of all men, (Acts 4:12, I Timothy 4:12) But God allows Satan to do his thing to corrupt His plans to see if His children wants Him. Satan will die the second death, (Ezekiel 28:18) as His children who would rather follow the father of all lies (John 8:44) although Satan is His child as well. (John 3:16, Psalm 37:20) The second death is the death of one soul (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20) (Revelation 20:14)Like I said not everybody wants Him, therefore, not everybody can be saved. All God wants is His children to repent (II Peter 3:9) and follow Him (John 14:6, John 14:15)Revelation 22 is future, which is after Revelation 20 and Revelation 21.Grace is only in this flesh age (Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 11:6) and the Melinneum is likely not going to be grace but being judge according to their works.So no, Universal Salvation is completely unscriptural.
     
  2. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    Why am I not surprised? You are missing quite a bit. Yes Christ is the Saviour of all men, (Acts 4:12, I Timothy 4:12) But God allows Satan to do his thing to corrupt His plans to see if His children wants Him. Satan will die the second death, (Ezekiel 28:18) as His children who would rather follow the father of all lies (John 8:44) although Satan is His child as well. (John 3:16, Psalm 37:20) The second death is the death of one soul (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20) (Revelation 20:14)Like I said not everybody wants Him, therefore, not everybody can be saved. All God wants is His children to repent (II Peter 3:9) and follow Him (John 14:6, John 14:15)Revelation 22 is future, which is after Revelation 20 and Revelation 21.Grace is only in this flesh age (Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 11:6) and the Melinneum is likely not going to be grace but being judge according to their works.So no, Universal Salvation is completely unscriptural.
    I care to differ. Men are judged according to their works, demanding variation in punishments and duration. I serve a victorious God who will reconcile all things unto himself that he might be all in all. Hell was created for the devil and his angels. Souls will only suffer until they have paid what is due and submit to Christ's rule.
     
  3. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Why am I not surprised? You are missing quite a bit. Yes Christ is the Saviour of all men, (Acts 4:12, I Timothy 4:12) But God allows Satan to do his thing to corrupt His plans to see if His children wants Him. Satan will die the second death, (Ezekiel 28:18) as His children who would rather follow the father of all lies (John 8:44) although Satan is His child as well. (John 3:16, Psalm 37:20) The second death is the death of one soul (Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20) (Revelation 20:14)Like I said not everybody wants Him, therefore, not everybody can be saved. All God wants is His children to repent (II Peter 3:9) and follow Him (John 14:6, John 14:15)Revelation 22 is future, which is after Revelation 20 and Revelation 21.Grace is only in this flesh age (Ephesians 2:8-10, Romans 11:6) and the Melinneum is likely not going to be grace but being judge according to their works.So no, Universal Salvation is completely unscriptural.
    I care to differ.Men are judged according to their works, demanding variation in punishments and duration.I serve a victorious God who will reconcile all things unto himself that he might be all in all. Hell was created for the devil and his angels. Souls will only suffer until they have paid what is due and submit to Christ's rule.We were once angels, hope you know that at least. Considering the fact you say that Hell is only for Satan (who is God's son) and his angels (who is also God's sons) and then say "Souls will only suffer until they have paid what is due and submit to Christ's rule" is contradicting each other literally and big time. Which one is it?I serve a God who can never lie. (Romans 3:4, I John 1:5) I serve a God who can't force anybody to love Him. (John 14:15) What I don't serve is a god who want to torture a soul until they come to christ. (II Corinthians 11:4, II Corinthians 11:14, II Corinthians 4:4)
     
  4. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    We were once angels, hope you know that at least. Considering the fact you say that Hell is only for Satan (who is God's son) and his angels (who is also God's sons) and then say "Souls will only suffer until they have paid what is due and submit to Christ's rule" is contradicting each other literally and big time. Which one is it?
    Hell was created for the devil and his angels, not for man. The human soul will only suffer until they have paid what is due and submit to Christ's rule.
    I serve a God who can never lie. (Romans 3:4, I John 1:5)
    I serve a God who can never lie. He promised to draw all men unto himself and reconcile all things. Not only is my God incapable of lying...he's powerful enough to do what he says.I serve a God who can't force anybody to love Him. (John 14:15)I serve a God who CAN do all things, including use eternity to break the stubborn will of his children and bring them back into fellowship with himself.
    What I don't serve is a god who want to torture a soul until they come to christ. (II Corinthians 11:4, II Corinthians 11:14, II Corinthians 4:4)
    No...you serve a destroyer. I serve a Savior. You have to study the Greek wording Jesus used in Matthew 25:46,Matthew 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting (aionious) punishment (kolasis): but the righteous into life eternal. "Aionious" means an age of unknown duration and "kolasis" means "correction" or "punishment", but unlike the typical Greek word for this, "kolasis" is based on "kolazo" meaning "to correct by pruning" and is used in Greek secular literature for rehabiliative punishments. I often put my son in timeout or give him a swat on the bottom. Why? Because I love him. My disciplining my son brings him into obedience to my will. What kind of father would I be if I tortured my son or destroyed him if he refused to listen? Is not God as loving a father as I am? Or am I more loving than God?Your view doesn't bode well with God's nature...God is Love. And Love NEVER fails.
     
  5. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    We were once angels, hope you know that at least. Considering the fact you say that Hell is only for Satan (who is God's son) and his angels (who is also God's sons) and then say "Souls will only suffer until they have paid what is due and submit to Christ's rule" is contradicting each other literally and big time. Which one is it?
    Hell was created for the devil and his angels, not for man. The human soul will only suffer until they have paid what is due and submit to Christ's rule.(thesuperjag;53480)
    I serve a God who can never lie. (Romans 3:4, I John 1:5)
    I serve a God who can never lie. He promised to draw all men unto himself and reconcile all things. Not only is my God incapable of lying...he's powerful enough to do what he says.(thesuperjag;53480)
    I serve a God who can't force anybody to love Him. (John 14:15)
    I serve a God who CAN do all things, including use eternity to break the stubborn will of his children and bring them back into fellowship with himself.(thesuperjag;53480)
    What I don't serve is a god who want to torture a soul until they come to christ. (II Corinthians 11:4, II Corinthians 11:14, II Corinthians 4:4)
    No...you serve a destroyer. I serve a Savior. You have to study the Greek wording Jesus used in Matthew 25:46,Matthew 25:46And these shall go away into everlasting (aionious) punishment (kolasis): but the righteous into life eternal."Aionious" means an age of unknown duration and "kolasis" means "correction" or "punishment", but unlike the typical Greek word for this, "kolasis" is based on "kolazo" meaning "to correct by pruning" and is used in Greek secular literature for rehabiliative punishments. I often put my son in timeout or give him a swat on the bottom. Why? Because I love him. My disciplining my son brings him into obedience to my will. What kind of father would I be if I tortured my son or destroyed him if he refused to listen? Is not God as loving a father as I am? Or am I more loving than God?Your view doesn't bode well with God's nature...God is Love. And Love NEVER fails.Be careful with your words Aquila. Tell me, what about Cain? After all he is a man. He is a human.
     
  6. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    Be careful with your words Aquila. Tell me, what about Cain? After all he is a man. He is a human.
    Do you believe God will reconcile all things...or do you believe God is mistaken or misleading us?Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.Colossians 1:16-29:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.Philippians 2: 10-11That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Ephesians 1: 9-11Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:
     
  7. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Be careful with your words Aquila. Tell me, what about Cain? After all he is a man. He is a human.
    Do you believe God will reconcile all things...or do you believe God is mistaken or misleading us?Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.Colossians 1:16-29:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.Philippians 2: 10-11That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.Ephesians 1: 9-11Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself: That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him: In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:Yes, but not in men's interpretation of it.Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Matthew 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Matthew 7:23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.It won't change the fact that God can not force anybody to love Him. That's true love right there. It is also true love to tell the Truth.
     
  8. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    Yes, but not in men's interpretation of it.Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Matthew 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Matthew 7:23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.It won't change the fact that God can not force anybody to love Him. That's true love right there. It is also true love to tell the Truth.
    In your theology God forces love. God says, “Love me or burn in Hell forever.” My point is that God doesn’t do that. God will sufficiently punish the sinner for their sin. However the sinner will eventually surrender in sincerity to God’s love and rule over their lives and be delivered from said punishment. In the verses you gave the issue is entering into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus’ point was that not everyone who merely professes adoration of him will enter the kingdom of heaven, only those who sincerely come to him seeking salvation and allow him to be Lord in their lives. But there is good news, the Bible tells us:philippians 2:10-11That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the GLORY of God the Father.You see, we know that all will one day sincerely make him Lord over their souls. This dovetails with the truth that all things will be reconciled to God in the verses I gave above. God isn’t going to just throw away the majority of humanity. God has offered his grace that all men might be saved from entering eternal punishment (meaning punishment of an eternal nature not duration). But although few will be saved from this punishment, it is this punishment that will serve as a refiner’s fire to purify and bring all mankind into reconciliation to him. You’re only reading and telling half of the story. [​IMG]
     
  9. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    Yes, but not in men's interpretation of it.Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Matthew 7:22 - Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?Matthew 7:23 - And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.It won't change the fact that God can not force anybody to love Him. That's true love right there. It is also true love to tell the Truth.
    In your theology God forces love. God says, “Love me or burn in Hell forever.” My point is that God doesn’t do that. God will sufficiently punish the sinner for their sin. However the sinner will eventually surrender in sincerity to God’s love and rule over their lives and be delivered from said punishment. In the verses you gave the issue is entering into the kingdom of heaven. Jesus’ point was that not everyone who merely professes adoration of him will enter the kingdom of heaven, only those who sincerely come to him seeking salvation and allow him to be Lord in their lives. But there is good news, the Bible tells us:philippians 2:10-11That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth;And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the GLORY of God the Father.You see, we know that all will one day sincerely make him Lord over their souls. This dovetails with the truth that all things will be reconciled to God in the verses I gave above. God isn’t going to just throw away the majority of humanity. God has offered his grace that all men might be saved from entering eternal punishment (meaning punishment of an eternal nature not duration). But although few will be saved from this punishment, it is this punishment that will serve as a refiner’s fire to purify and bring all mankind into reconciliation to him. You’re only reading and telling half of the story. [​IMG]First off, would you please stop twisting my words. I never said "God forces love" In fact I said quite the opposite. 'It won't change the fact that God can not force anybody to love Him.'Secondly, I do not believe a "Burning in Hell forever" doctrine as it is well proven earlier in this topic. You are not taking all of my post as a collective data, but rather base my last and single post on what you think on what I said.Half the story? Nay.
     
  10. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    First off, would you please stop twisting my words. I never said "God forces love" In fact I said quite the opposite. 'It won't change the fact that God can not force anybody to love Him.'Secondly, I do not believe a "Burning in Hell forever" doctrine as it is well proven earlier in this topic. You are not taking all of my post as a collective data, but rather base my last and single post on what you think on what I said.Half the story? Nay.
    So you believe that God will eternally destroy the majority of mankind? Does this not face some of the very same issues of the eternal torment perspective? Here you have a God that warns, “Love me or I’ll destroy you forever.” A God who claims to be love…yet is willing to absolutely destroy the vast majority of the creation he made in his image. Certainly the absolute horror of one facing what they know will be their absolute destruction would cause an infinite degree of terror in the moments leading up to one’s destruction. Satan still wins and succeeds in using sin to destroy the vast majority of God’s creation. Sorry, I still cannot ascribe to the idea that a loving, all powerful and all knowing God would do that or allow that. Also it rejects the ultimate aim of God’s redemptive plan …the reconciliation of all things. The Universal Salvation position puts forth a biblically sound view of a victorious God whose love conquers all. Sin and Satan win NOTHING. Just for reference I’ll present a list of famous Christian Universal Reconciliationists:• All the Hebrew Prophets who prophesied of the coming of the Messiah • Jesus Christ (John 12:32) • Paul, the Apostle (never used the word "Hell" once) (1 Tim. 4:9-11) • John the Apostle (John 4:42) • The Didascalia (the Catechetical school of Alexandria) • Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria • Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria • Origen, greatest scholar of the early church • Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria • Didymus • Ambrose, Bishop • Ephraim • Chrysostum • Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop • Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council • Titus, Bishop of Bostra • Asterius, Bishop of Amasea • Cyril • Methodius, Bishop of Tyre • Eusibius, early church historian • Hillary, Bishop of Poictiers • Victorinus • Macrina, the younger • Erigena • Dionysius • Barsudaili, Abbott of Edessa • Diodore, Bishop of Tarsus and Jerusalem • Theodore of Mopsuestia • John Cassian • Maximus of Turin • Proclus, Bishop of Constantinoplus • Theodoret the Blessed, Bishop of Cyrrhus • Peter Chrysologus, Bishop of Ravenna • Theophylact, Archbishop of Achrida • Anselm • Hermes Trisgistus • Joachim of Flora • Thomas Hobbes • Francis Quarles • Sir Harry Vane • La Fontaine • Sir Isaac Newton • Daniel Defoe • Joseph Addison • Isaac Watts • Dr. Edward Young • Chevalier Ramsay • William King, Archbishop of Dublin • William Duncombe • Bishop Joseph Butler • John Donne • James Thompson • Dr. Philip Doddridge • Peter Bohler • Dr. David Hartley • Thomas Say • Samuel Johnson • Jean Jacques Rousseau • Frederick the Great • Ferdinand Oliver Petitpiere • Henry Brooke • Mark Akenside • Immanuel Kant • Thomas Gainesborough • William Cowper • James Neckar • Dr. Joseph Priestley • Jung Stilling • John Frederick Oberlin • Alison Rutherford Cockburn • Johann Kasper Lavater • Anna Letitia Barbauld • Dr. John Prior Estlin • Samuel Parr • T. W. Goethe • Thomas Belsham • Rev. Robert Aspland • George Crabbe • Ralph Cudworth • Henry Moore • Erbury • Samuel Richardson • Bishop Rust • Jeremy White • Bishop Stillingfleet • Dr. Burnet, Master of the Charter House • William Whiston • Bishop Newton • William Law • J. Windet • R. Clark • Cooke • J. Relly • Sir George Stonehouse • W. Dudgeon • Capel Berrow • C. Charnay • Elhanan Winchester • John Murry • Ershine of Linlathen • Anne Bronte • Whittier • Robert and Elizabeth Browning • Robert Burns • Johann Schiller • Joanna Baillie • Samuel Rogers • Sir James Mackintosh • Alexander Von Humboldt • Samuel Taylor Coleridge • John Foster • Whitman • Edna Lyall • George MacDonald • Mrs. Oliphant • James Hinton • C. Bronte • Emily Bronte • Gen. Gordon • Miss Mulock • Alexander Pope • William Wordsworth • James Montgomery • Thomas Dick • James Hogg • Robert Southey • Fredericka Bremer • Ellice Hopkins • Hesba Stretton • Florence Nightingale • F. 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Griffith, Prebendary of St. Paul's • Archbishop Tillotson • Richard Coppin • Gerard Winstanley • R. Stafford • Bishop Stillingfleet • Rev. Dr. Thomas Burnet • Dr. Doddridge • Archdeacon Paley • Rev. Dr. Hey, Prof. of Divinity • Dr. Cheyne • Rev. Presbendary Constable, M.A. • Rev. R. W. Dale • Rev. Edward White • Rev. Henry Allon D. D. • M. Guillaume Monad • Nathaniel Scarlett • Paul Chatfield • Helen Maria Williams • F. W. Faber • Charles Lamb • Mrs. Mary M. Sherwood • F. W. T. Schelling • Sarah Flower Adams • Walter Savage Landor • Henry Crabb Robinson • Thomas Campbell • Horace Smith • William Ellery Channing • Rev. L. Carpenter L.L.D. • F. De La Mennais • Washington Irving • Bernard Barton • Leigh Hunt • Thomas De Quincey • John Pierpont • John Wilson • Prof. Espy • Dr. T. Southwood Smith • Lord Byron • Lady Byron • H. H. Milman • Percy B. Shelley • Felicia Dorothea Hemans • William Cullen Bryant • William Whewell • J. G. Percival • Horace Mann • Hartley Coleridge • T. C. Lockhart • Gerritt Smith • Theophilus Parsons • Thomas Hood • McDonald Clarke • Dr. F Hase, professor of theology • Chauncey Townsend • Frederika Bremer • Johann Peter Lange • Dr. C. F. Kling • Lydia Maria Child • William Leggell • Thomas Guthrie • Bishop Ewing • George Sand • Nathaniel Hawthorne • Mary Bowitt • T. P. Nichol L.L.D. • James Marlineau • Hans Christian Andersen • John Stuart Mill • Rev. J. C. Street • Rev. T. Latham • Emile Giradin • Elizabeth Oakes Smith • N. T. Willis • John Sterling • Henry Wadsworth Longfellow • John Greenleaf Whittier • Rev. L. C. Marvin • Abel C. Thomas • Christian Edward Baumstark • Caroline E. S. Norton • John R. Thompson • Ross Winans • Oliver Wendell Holmes • Alfred Tennyson • Richard Milnes • Prof. J. S. Blackie • John R. Beard D.D. • Edward Clodd • Mary Carpenter • Theodore Parker • Margaret Fuller Ossoli • J. S. Taylor • George Moore • Martin Tupper • Charles Sumner • Horace Greeley • W. M. Thackery • J. H. Scholten • Harriet Beecher Stowe • Norman MacLeod D.D. • Charles Mackay • Charles Dickens • Lewis Carroll • Henry Ward Beecher • J. Ross Browne • Sylvester Judd • Rev. C. A. Bartol • Rev. Fergus Ferguson • Caroline M. Sawyer • Daniel Schenkel • Franz Delitsch • Johann Tauler • Jean De Ruysbroek • Johann Arndt • Sonner • Denk • Hetzer • Johann Wilhelm Petersen • Matthew Reuz • Johan Conrad (Christian) Dippel • John Henry Haug, Prof. at Strasburg • Dr. Ernest Christoph Hockman • Count De Marcy • Francesco Giorgi • Postel • Curione • David Joris • Campanella • George Klein-Nikolai, author • Anna Letitia Barbauld, English poet and writer • Sarah Flowers Adams, hymnist • Elisabeth Arundel Charles, hymnist, writer • Elisabeth C. Clephane, hymnist • Eliza Scudder • Alison Rutherford Cockburn, writer • Joanna Beitte, author • Mary M. Sherwood, writer • Lydia Child, writer • Caroline Norton, writer • Mary Carpenter, English philanthropist • Margaret Fuller Ossoli, writer • Caroline Sawyer, writer • Sarah G. Edgarton Mayo, writer • Francis Power Cobbe, author • Lucy Larcom, writer • Dinah Muloch Craik • Mrs. Bloomfield, writer • Mrs. E.H.J. Cleveland • Helen L. Bostwick • Julia H. Scott, writer • Fredrika Bremer, Swedish novelist • Woelner • Seebach • Steinbart • Rev. Alexander Schweizer • Rev. John Page Hoppe • Rev. G. Vance Smith D.D. Ph. D. • Bishop Colenso • Jules Francois Suisse Simon, French Statesman • George Dawson • Charles Reade • John Cooper Vail • Philip James Bailey • James Gaylord Clark • John Sare • J. A. Fronde • Acton Warburton • James Russel Lowell • Dr. R. A. Lipsins, Prof. of Theology • John Ruskin • Arther Hugh Clough • Walt Whitman • Louis Figuier, French Scientist • Charles Kingsley • J. C. Holland • Sarah G. Edgarton Mayo • Prof. E. H. Plumptre • William Howard Russell • W. R. Greg • Stopford A. Brooke, chaplain to the Queen • G. Campbell • Leopold Scheffer • Matthew Arnold • Frances Power Cobbe • J. H. Duganne • T. W. Higginson • Thomas L. Harris • George Rust • Rev. John Wallace • Mrs. A. D. T. Whitney • S. Baring Gould • Lucy Larcom • Thomas Griffith • Adelaide A. Procter • Bayard Taylor • Dinah Mulock Graik • Elizabeth Arundel Charles • Henry James • S. A. Tipple • Quillen H. Shinn, evangelist • John Brown, M. D. • Mrs. Bloomfield • Eliza Scudder • Charles G. Ames • Joseph John Murphy • James Hinton • Mrs. E. H. J. Cleaveland • Gerald Massey • Theodore Winthrop • Alexander Smith • Albert Laighton • Jean Jugelow • Edwin Arnold • Robert Bulwer Lytton • William Morris • Rev. John Orr, Prof. Biblical Criticism • J. B. Munroe • N. C. Wilkins • Bret Harte • Rev. William Archer Butler • Elizabeth C. Clephane • Rev. Albert Reville D. D. • Dr. S. Fillmore Bennett • Robert Ingersoll • William Wallace • John Hay • Helen Bostwick • Robert Buchaman • Hattie Griswold • Sharon Turner • Seba Smith • Julia H. Kinney Scott • Joaquin Miller • Principle Caird • The Cary Sisters • M. B. Smedley • Paul Janet • Rev. John Monsell L.L.D. • Thomas Aird • Ronald Cower • J. Fenimore Cooper • Victor Hugo • Appleton Oaksith • Sir James Stephen • Thomas Carlyle • Allan Cunningham • John Young L.L.D • Thomas Erskine of Lintathen • Schleiermacher • Bengel • Eberhard • Lavater • J Macleod Campbell, Dean of Wells • Canon Wilberforce • Pastor Oberlin • Bishop Ken • Thomas Allin • Hannah Whitall Smith, Evangelist and Bible teacher • Clara Barton • Christopher Sauer (Sower, Saur), Bible Publisher • Charles Chauncy • Dr. Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence • William Sargent • Hosea Ballou • Christopher Marshall • George de Benneville • Marie Huber • Jane Leade • Philipp Jakob Spener • Johanna Eleonora von und zu Merlau • Abraham Lincoln • Benjamin Franklin, encouraged the first Universalist Church in Philadelphia • George Washington, defended a Universalist chaplain in his army when attacked by "Orthodox" ministers • Joseph S. Johnston, writer • Rev. Charles A. Pridgeon, President Pittsburgh Bible Institute • Rev. E. L. Clementson, theologian • John A. T. Robinson, theologian • Jacques Ellul, theologian • William Barclay, theologian and translator • Robert Short, author • A.E. Knoch, Bible student and translator • Dean Hough, pastor, writer, editor • J. Preston Eby, writer • Ray Prinzing, writer • A.E. Saxby, author • Warren Young Kimball, author • Adlai Loudy, author • John H. Paton, author • Guy Marks, author • Vladimir Gelesnoff, author • Dr. Ernest L. Martin, author • Morton Kelsey, author • Ruth Carter Stapleton, Billy Carter's sister • Walter Kunneth • Paul Althaus, theologian • Nels Ferre, theologian • Herbert Farmer, theologian • Nicolai Berdyaev, theologian • Hendrikus Berkof, theologian • H. Dodd, theologian • H. H. Farmer, theologian • Vernard Eller, professor • P. T. Forsythe, theologian • Karl Heim, theologian • John Hick, theologian • F. D. Moule, professor • T. Niles, church leader • Mathias Rissi, theologian • Ethelbert Stauffer, theologian • Thomas Talbott, Professor • David L. Watson, professor • Karl Barth, theologian • Madelein L Engle, author • Tom Harpur, journalist • Richard John Neuhaus • Robert Rutherford, pastor • Dick King, pastor • Rhett Ellis, author • Kalen Fristadt, author • Mark T. Chamberlain, author • Brian McLaren, author • Jeff Priddy, author • Harold Lovelace, author, speaker • Keith DeRose, Yale Professor
     
  11. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (thesuperjag;53562)
    First off, would you please stop twisting my words. I never said "God forces love" In fact I said quite the opposite. 'It won't change the fact that God can not force anybody to love Him.'Secondly, I do not believe a "Burning in Hell forever" doctrine as it is well proven earlier in this topic. You are not taking all of my post as a collective data, but rather base my last and single post on what you think on what I said.Half the story? Nay.
    So you believe that God will eternally destroy the majority of mankind? Does this not face some of the very same issues of the eternal torment perspective? Here you have a God that warns, “Love me or I’ll destroy you forever.” A God who claims to be love…yet is willing to absolutely destroy the vast majority of the creation he made in his image. Certainly the absolute horror of one facing what they know will be their absolute destruction would cause an infinite degree of terror in the moments leading up to one’s destruction. Satan still wins and succeeds in using sin to destroy the vast majority of God’s creation. Sorry, I still cannot ascribe to the idea that a loving, all powerful and all knowing God would do that or allow that. Also it rejects the ultimate aim of God’s redemptive plan …the reconciliation of all things. The Universal Salvation position puts forth a biblically sound view of a victorious God whose love conquers all. Sin and Satan win NOTHING. Just for reference I’ll present a list of famous Christian Universal Reconciliationists:• All the Hebrew Prophets who prophesied of the coming of the Messiah • Jesus Christ (John 12:32) • Paul, the Apostle (never used the word "Hell" once) (1 Tim. 4:9-11) • John the Apostle (John 4:42) • The Didascalia (the Catechetical school of Alexandria) • Pantaenus, first head of catechetical school at Alexandria • Clement of Alexandria, second head of catechetical school at Alexandria • Origen, greatest scholar of the early church • Athenasius, Archbishop of Alexandria • Didymus • Ambrose, Bishop • Ephraim • Chrysostum • Gregory of Nyssa, Bishop • Gregory of Nazianzus, Bishop and President of the second Church council • Titus, Bishop of Bostra • Asterius, Bishop of Amasea • Cyril • Methodius, Bishop of Tyre • Eusibius, early church historian • Hillary, Bishop of Poictiers • Victorinus • Macrina, the younger • Erigena • Dionysius • Barsudaili, Abbott of Edessa • Diodore, Bishop of Tarsus and Jerusalem • Theodore of Mopsuestia • John Cassian • Maximus of Turin • Proclus, Bishop of Constantinoplus • Theodoret the Blessed, Bishop of Cyrrhus • Peter Chrysologus, Bishop of Ravenna • Theophylact, Archbishop of Achrida • Anselm • Hermes Trisgistus • Joachim of Flora • Thomas Hobbes • Francis Quarles • Sir Harry Vane • La Fontaine • Sir Isaac Newton • Daniel Defoe • Joseph Addison • Isaac Watts • Dr. Edward Young • Chevalier Ramsay • William King, Archbishop of Dublin • William Duncombe • Bishop Joseph Butler • John Donne • James Thompson • Dr. Philip Doddridge • Peter Bohler • Dr. David Hartley • Thomas Say • Samuel Johnson • Jean Jacques Rousseau • Frederick the Great • Ferdinand Oliver Petitpiere • Henry Brooke • Mark Akenside • Immanuel Kant • Thomas Gainesborough • William Cowper • James Neckar • Dr. Joseph Priestley • Jung Stilling • John Frederick Oberlin • Alison Rutherford Cockburn • Johann Kasper Lavater • Anna Letitia Barbauld • Dr. John Prior Estlin • Samuel Parr • T. W. Goethe • Thomas Belsham • Rev. Robert Aspland • George Crabbe • Ralph Cudworth • Henry Moore • Erbury • Samuel Richardson • Bishop Rust • Jeremy White • Bishop Stillingfleet • Dr. Burnet, Master of the Charter House • William Whiston • Bishop Newton • William Law • J. Windet • R. Clark • Cooke • J. Relly • Sir George Stonehouse • W. Dudgeon • Capel Berrow • C. Charnay • Elhanan Winchester • John Murry • Ershine of Linlathen • Anne Bronte • Whittier • Robert and Elizabeth Browning • Robert Burns • Johann Schiller • Joanna Baillie • Samuel Rogers • Sir James Mackintosh • Alexander Von Humboldt • Samuel Taylor Coleridge • John Foster • Whitman • Edna Lyall • George MacDonald • Mrs. Oliphant • James Hinton • C. Bronte • Emily Bronte • Gen. Gordon • Miss Mulock • Alexander Pope • William Wordsworth • James Montgomery • Thomas Dick • James Hogg • Robert Southey • Fredericka Bremer • Ellice Hopkins • Hesba Stretton • Florence Nightingale • F. Schlegel • Ralph Waldo Emerson • Bishop Ewing of Argyll • Canon Kingsley • John F.D. Maurice • Dr. Samuel Cox • Baldwin Brown • Bishop Westcott • F. W. Robertson • Sir G. W. Cox • Andrew Jukes • Rev. Lucius R. Paige • Thomas Whittimore • J. H. Hanson • Archer Gurney • Phillips Brooks • Professor Mayor • Canon F. W. Farrar • Principal Caird, the Bishop of Meath • Dean Church • Johann A. W. Neander • Martensen • Friedrich A.G. Tholuck, German Professor • E.A. Thomas Rawson Birks, secretary to Evangelical Alliance • Erik Jakob Ekman, author • Karl Johan Nyvall, author • Peter Paul Waldenstrom • Reuss • Spener • Kristofer Jakob Bostrom, prof. of Philosophy, University of Uppsala • Johna Wilhelm Personne, Swedish Lutheran Bishop, author • Nils Ignell, pastor, author • Rev. Dr. Littledale • Rev. H. B. Wilson • Bishop Forbes of Brechin • Bishop Moorhouse of Melbourne • Dean Stanley • Rev. Prof. Challis • Archdeacon Reichel D. D. • Rev. Prof. J. B. Mayor • A.J. Beresford-Hope • Rev. T. Griffith, Prebendary of St. Paul's • Archbishop Tillotson • Richard Coppin • Gerard Winstanley • R. Stafford • Bishop Stillingfleet • Rev. Dr. Thomas Burnet • Dr. Doddridge • Archdeacon Paley • Rev. Dr. Hey, Prof. of Divinity • Dr. Cheyne • Rev. Presbendary Constable, M.A. • Rev. R. W. Dale • Rev. Edward White • Rev. Henry Allon D. D. • M. Guillaume Monad • Nathaniel Scarlett • Paul Chatfield • Helen Maria Williams • F. W. Faber • Charles Lamb • Mrs. Mary M. Sherwood • F. W. T. Schelling • Sarah Flower Adams • Walter Savage Landor • Henry Crabb Robinson • Thomas Campbell • Horace Smith • William Ellery Channing • Rev. L. Carpenter L.L.D. • F. De La Mennais • Washington Irving • Bernard Barton • Leigh Hunt • Thomas De Quincey • John Pierpont • John Wilson • Prof. Espy • Dr. T. Southwood Smith • Lord Byron • Lady Byron • H. H. Milman • Percy B. Shelley • Felicia Dorothea Hemans • William Cullen Bryant • William Whewell • J. G. Percival • Horace Mann • Hartley Coleridge • T. C. Lockhart • Gerritt Smith • Theophilus Parsons • Thomas Hood • McDonald Clarke • Dr. F Hase, professor of theology • Chauncey Townsend • Frederika Bremer • Johann Peter Lange • Dr. C. F. Kling • Lydia Maria Child • William Leggell • Thomas Guthrie • Bishop Ewing • George Sand • Nathaniel Hawthorne • Mary Bowitt • T. P. Nichol L.L.D. • James Marlineau • Hans Christian Andersen • John Stuart Mill • Rev. J. C. Street • Rev. T. Latham • Emile Giradin • Elizabeth Oakes Smith • N. T. Willis • John Sterling • Henry Wadsworth Longfellow • John Greenleaf Whittier • Rev. L. C. Marvin • Abel C. Thomas • Christian Edward Baumstark • Caroline E. S. Norton • John R. Thompson • Ross Winans • Oliver Wendell Holmes • Alfred Tennyson • Richard Milnes • Prof. J. S. Blackie • John R. Beard D.D. • Edward Clodd • Mary Carpenter • Theodore Parker • Margaret Fuller Ossoli • J. S. Taylor • George Moore • Martin Tupper • Charles Sumner • Horace Greeley • W. M. Thackery • J. H. Scholten • Harriet Beecher Stowe • Norman MacLeod D.D. • Charles Mackay • Charles Dickens • Lewis Carroll • Henry Ward Beecher • J. Ross Browne • Sylvester Judd • Rev. C. A. Bartol • Rev. Fergus Ferguson • Caroline M. Sawyer • Daniel Schenkel • Franz Delitsch • Johann Tauler • Jean De Ruysbroek • Johann Arndt • Sonner • Denk • Hetzer • Johann Wilhelm Petersen • Matthew Reuz • Johan Conrad (Christian) Dippel • John Henry Haug, Prof. at Strasburg • Dr. Ernest Christoph Hockman • Count De Marcy • Francesco Giorgi • Postel • Curione • David Joris • Campanella • George Klein-Nikolai, author • Anna Letitia Barbauld, English poet and writer • Sarah Flowers Adams, hymnist • Elisabeth Arundel Charles, hymnist, writer • Elisabeth C. Clephane, hymnist • Eliza Scudder • Alison Rutherford Cockburn, writer • Joanna Beitte, author • Mary M. Sherwood, writer • Lydia Child, writer • Caroline Norton, writer • Mary Carpenter, English philanthropist • Margaret Fuller Ossoli, writer • Caroline Sawyer, writer • Sarah G. Edgarton Mayo, writer • Francis Power Cobbe, author • Lucy Larcom, writer • Dinah Muloch Craik • Mrs. Bloomfield, writer • Mrs. E.H.J. Cleveland • Helen L. Bostwick • Julia H. Scott, writer • Fredrika Bremer, Swedish novelist • Woelner • Seebach • Steinbart • Rev. Alexander Schweizer • Rev. John Page Hoppe • Rev. G. Vance Smith D.D. Ph. D. • Bishop Colenso • Jules Francois Suisse Simon, French Statesman • George Dawson • Charles Reade • John Cooper Vail • Philip James Bailey • James Gaylord Clark • John Sare • J. A. Fronde • Acton Warburton • James Russel Lowell • Dr. R. A. Lipsins, Prof. of Theology • John Ruskin • Arther Hugh Clough • Walt Whitman • Louis Figuier, French Scientist • Charles Kingsley • J. C. Holland • Sarah G. Edgarton Mayo • Prof. E. H. Plumptre • William Howard Russell • W. R. Greg • Stopford A. Brooke, chaplain to the Queen • G. Campbell • Leopold Scheffer • Matthew Arnold • Frances Power Cobbe • J. H. Duganne • T. W. Higginson • Thomas L. Harris • George Rust • Rev. John Wallace • Mrs. A. D. T. Whitney • S. Baring Gould • Lucy Larcom • Thomas Griffith • Adelaide A. Procter • Bayard Taylor • Dinah Mulock Graik • Elizabeth Arundel Charles • Henry James • S. A. Tipple • Quillen H. Shinn, evangelist • John Brown, M. D. • Mrs. Bloomfield • Eliza Scudder • Charles G. Ames • Joseph John Murphy • James Hinton • Mrs. E. H. J. Cleaveland • Gerald Massey • Theodore Winthrop • Alexander Smith • Albert Laighton • Jean Jugelow • Edwin Arnold • Robert Bulwer Lytton • William Morris • Rev. John Orr, Prof. Biblical Criticism • J. B. Munroe • N. C. Wilkins • Bret Harte • Rev. William Archer Butler • Elizabeth C. Clephane • Rev. Albert Reville D. D. • Dr. S. Fillmore Bennett • Robert Ingersoll • William Wallace • John Hay • Helen Bostwick • Robert Buchaman • Hattie Griswold • Sharon Turner • Seba Smith • Julia H. Kinney Scott • Joaquin Miller • Principle Caird • The Cary Sisters • M. B. Smedley • Paul Janet • Rev. John Monsell L.L.D. • Thomas Aird • Ronald Cower • J. Fenimore Cooper • Victor Hugo • Appleton Oaksith • Sir James Stephen • Thomas Carlyle • Allan Cunningham • John Young L.L.D • Thomas Erskine of Lintathen • Schleiermacher • Bengel • Eberhard • Lavater • J Macleod Campbell, Dean of Wells • Canon Wilberforce • Pastor Oberlin • Bishop Ken • Thomas Allin • Hannah Whitall Smith, Evangelist and Bible teacher • Clara Barton • Christopher Sauer (Sower, Saur), Bible Publisher • Charles Chauncy • Dr. Benjamin Rush, signer of the Declaration of Independence • William Sargent • Hosea Ballou • Christopher Marshall • George de Benneville • Marie Huber • Jane Leade • Philipp Jakob Spener • Johanna Eleonora von und zu Merlau • Abraham Lincoln • Benjamin Franklin, encouraged the first Universalist Church in Philadelphia • George Washington, defended a Universalist chaplain in his army when attacked by "Orthodox" ministers • Joseph S. Johnston, writer • Rev. Charles A. Pridgeon, President Pittsburgh Bible Institute • Rev. E. L. Clementson, theologian • John A. T. Robinson, theologian • Jacques Ellul, theologian • William Barclay, theologian and translator • Robert Short, author • A.E. Knoch, Bible student and translator • Dean Hough, pastor, writer, editor • J. Preston Eby, writer • Ray Prinzing, writer • A.E. Saxby, author • Warren Young Kimball, author • Adlai Loudy, author • John H. Paton, author • Guy Marks, author • Vladimir Gelesnoff, author • Dr. Ernest L. Martin, author • Morton Kelsey, author • Ruth Carter Stapleton, Billy Carter's sister • Walter Kunneth • Paul Althaus, theologian • Nels Ferre, theologian • Herbert Farmer, theologian • Nicolai Berdyaev, theologian • Hendrikus Berkof, theologian • H. Dodd, theologian • H. H. Farmer, theologian • Vernard Eller, professor • P. T. Forsythe, theologian • Karl Heim, theologian • John Hick, theologian • F. D. Moule, professor • T. Niles, church leader • Mathias Rissi, theologian • Ethelbert Stauffer, theologian • Thomas Talbott, Professor • David L. Watson, professor • Karl Barth, theologian • Madelein L Engle, author • Tom Harpur, journalist • Richard John Neuhaus • Robert Rutherford, pastor • Dick King, pastor • Rhett Ellis, author • Kalen Fristadt, author • Mark T. Chamberlain, author • Brian McLaren, author • Jeff Priddy, author • Harold Lovelace, author, speaker • Keith DeRose, Yale ProfessorI believe God gave us a free will to choose either Christ or Satan. Hence the reason there is a second death. (Revelation 20:14) Without free will, there is no true love to make a choice. (John 14:15)Another thing, that is a long list of people, Christ being in there is a false claim, so does the Hebrew prophets in the OT, and so does the people you listed in the NT. One false person in the list makes the whole list false.You are perverting the Words of the Living God, even Christ.
     
  12. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    (thesuperjag;53568)
    I believe God gave us a free will to choose either Christ or Satan. Hence the reason there is a second death. (Revelation 20:14) Without free will, there is no true love to make a choice. (John 14:15)
    Amen, we have free will. A person can choose to reject God and go to hell. There they will pay dearly for their sin and the flames will torment their souls…however, at some point in eternity God’s Word assures us that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess to the glory of God. Eventually all humanity will freely choose to embrace the sacrificial atonement of Jesus Christ. God’s love will win. And about free will…if your two year old son wanted to play in the street…would you just shrug your shoulders and say, “Oh well, I have to acknowledge his free will or I don’t love him.” WRONG. Any loving parent would do whatever it takes to yank them out of the street and break the will of that child. I love my son too much to give him free will.
    Another thing, that is a long list of people, Christ being in there is a false claim,
    Jesus said, John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. All means all.
    so does the Hebrew prophets in the OT, and so does the people you listed in the NT. One false person in the list makes the whole list false.
    Luke wrote, Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.All means all.
    You are perverting the Words of the Living God, even Christ.
    You’re ignoring the Word of the Living God. Read above.
     
  13. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (thesuperjag;53568)
    I believe God gave us a free will to choose either Christ or Satan. Hence the reason there is a second death. (Revelation 20:14) Without free will, there is no true love to make a choice. (John 14:15)
    Amen, we have free will. A person can choose to reject God and go to hell. There they will pay dearly for their sin and the flames will torment their souls…however, at some point in eternity God’s Word assures us that every knee will bow and every tongue will confess to the glory of God. Eventually all humanity will freely choose to embrace the sacrificial atonement of Jesus Christ. God’s love will win. And about free will…if your two year old son wanted to play in the street…would you just shrug your shoulders and say, “Oh well, I have to acknowledge his free will or I don’t love him.” WRONG. Any loving parent would do whatever it takes to yank them out of the street and break the will of that child. I love my son too much to give him free will. (thesuperjag;53568)
    Another thing, that is a long list of people, Christ being in there is a false claim,
    Jesus said, John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. All means all.(thesuperjag;53568)
    so does the Hebrew prophets in the OT, and so does the people you listed in the NT. One false person in the list makes the whole list false.
    Luke wrote, Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.All means all.(thesuperjag;53568)
    You are perverting the Words of the Living God, even Christ.
    You’re ignoring the Word of the Living God. Read above.So you ignore the second death, the death of one soul (not only am I talking about Satan and his angels)(am talking about the souls of a humam being as well, Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20, Revelation 20:14)Reference Revelation 20:8-10, Revelation 20:15Now concerning about free will about a parents choosing a decision for a child, if I was a parent, I still do the same thing, to keep my child(ren) safe.All I'm saying is, Christ, God's prophet, Christ's apostles (and other NT people) does not support your Universal Salvation doctrine, but the other people in your list might have.
     
  14. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    Jesus said, John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. All means all.Luke wrote, Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.All means all.You’re ignoring the Word of the Living God. Read above.
    I do not believe Jag is ignoring anything here. However, you *might* be (I think you are), and so I'm not sure what your point is.
    John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ​
    Jesus said that all would be drawn to Him, *IF* He is lifted up. The word *if* indicates that He can be lifted up (so we have to decide, when is if, and how does if happen?), and when He is lifted up (if He is) He will draw all men to Him. Also, there is that word *draw*--what does it mean? I can be drawn to something, and not receive it. Draw does not guarantee reception, and it most certainly does not guarantee salvation. This sctipture is a weak support for universal salvation. I am often drawn to chocolate cake, but I don't always eat it. I am often drawn to lots of things I may or may not actually receive. Jesus, is certainly no different, in that He draws us, but we must receive Him.Jesus says that He stands at the door and knocks... and *if* (there is that word if again) anyone opens, He will come in and sup with them. Jesus draws all of us to Himself, but not all come. Not all open the door either.On the second part, I do not understand your point. The prophets of old all spoke of the Messiah. What does this have to do with universal salvation? I am unconvinced. Should I be?
     
  15. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    The state of "death" or being "dead" is often presented in the figurative sense. For exmaple in repentance we die to sin and the flesh. The New Testament states, Romans 6:2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?Romans 6:7For he that is dead is freed from sin.Romans 6:8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:Romans 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 7:4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.Romans 7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.Galatians 2:19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.Colossians 2:20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,Colossians 3:3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.2 Timothy 2:11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:If one rejects repentance and refuses to die to the flesh...they must endure the Second Death. The Second Death is a sentence to produce the "dying" necessary to conform the will and character of those punished to will of God. In the lake of fire they suffer "death", the dying of their sinful wills that they might cryout and live in Christ as God reconciles "all things" unto himself. Acts 3:20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
     
  16. Jordan

    Jordan Active Member

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    (Aquila;53668)
    The state of "death" or being "dead" is often presented in the figurative sense. For exmaple in repentance we die to sin and the flesh. The New Testament states, Romans 6:2God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?Romans 6:7For he that is dead is freed from sin.Romans 6:8Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him:Romans 6:11Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.Romans 7:4Wherefore, my brethren, ye also are become dead to the law by the body of Christ; that ye should be married to another, even to him who is raised from the dead, that we should bring forth fruit unto God.Romans 7:6But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.Galatians 2:19For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.Colossians 2:20Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,Colossians 3:3For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.2 Timothy 2:11It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:If one rejects repentance and refuses to die to the flesh...they must endure the Second Death. The Second Death is a sentence to produce the "dying" necessary to conform the will and character of those punished to will of God. In the lake of fire they suffer "death", the dying of their sinful wills that they might cryout and live in Christ as God reconciles "all things" unto himself. Acts 3:20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    These scriptures you posted are referring to a different kind of death like in II Corinthians 5:17, but it is not the same death in Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20, Revelation 20:14)
     
  17. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (Aquila;53668)
    Acts 3:20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.
    Oh, I get it now. That's easy. Restitution does not mean that all would be saved. Restitution could also mean that damned people will be where damned people need to be, and the saints will be where they need to be. Everything will be in it's proper place, wherever that is, whatever that looks like.I had a messy room once... and so I brought restitution to it when I cleaned it up. I threw away some garbage, I made my bed... I got rid of some thing that didn't belong in my room, and I kept the things that did belong.I brought the restitution of all things in my room, when I did such.The word "restitution" was used... not the word salvation. Restitution is not salvation.
     
  18. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    (treeoflife;53666)
    I do not believe Jag is ignoring anything here. However, you *might* be (I think you are), and so I'm not sure what your point is.
    John 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. ​
    Jesus said that all would be drawn to Him, *IF* He is lifted up. The word *if* indicates that He can be lifted up (so we have to decide, when is if, and how does if happen?), and when He is lifted up (if He is) He will draw all men to Him.
    The Scriptures answer this question...look closely at the context:John 12:32-50And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. The "lifting up" up of Christ is his crucifiction. Essentially Jesus was saying, "And I, if I be [crucified], will draw all men unto me. Was Christ crucified? YES. The Apostles Paul explains that all things are reconciled by Christ's blood this way...Colossians 1:16-29:16 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: 1:17 And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. 1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell; 1:20 And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, I say, whether they be things in earth, or things in heaven.If Christ did die for ALL men, mankind would be eternally lost. But Christ died for ALL men that God might reconcile ALL men to himself.
    Also, there is that word *draw*--what does it mean? I can be drawn to something, and not receive it. Draw does not guarantee reception, and it most certainly does not guarantee salvation. This sctipture is a weak support for universal salvation. I am often drawn to chocolate cake, but I don't always eat it. I am often drawn to lots of things I may or may not actually receive. Jesus, is certainly no different, in that He draws us, but we must receive Him.
    The word "draw" here is the Greek word, "helkuo". The word "helkuo" means; "to draw, drag off " or "to be drawn by inward power" or "to lead" or to "impel". Jesus is essentially saying, "I, if I be [crucified], will [drag, lead, impel, draw] ALL men unto me." Jesus was crucified...now if Jesus doesn't do this...he lied.
    Jesus says that He stands at the door and knocks... and *if* (there is that word if again) anyone opens, He will come in and sup with them. Jesus draws all of us to Himself, but not all come. Not all open the door either.
    Jesus also has the "keys to death and hell". He can open and shut the doors of death and hell at will. Yes, Jesus knocks and promises that if anyone opens, He will come in and sup with them. Not all are immediately drawn...but Christ says with assurity that all men will eventually come. Not all will immediately open the door, but we know from the Word of the Lord that ALL things will be reconciled unto God, and at the name of Christ EVERY knee shall bow, and EVERY tongue confess that Jesus is Lord, TO THE GLORY OF GOD.
    On the second part, I do not understand your point. The prophets of old all spoke of the Messiah. What does this have to do with universal salvation? I am unconvinced. Should I be?
    Look closely at the text...Acts 3: 20-21And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of ALL things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.There will come a day when ALL are reconciled to God, that God might be ALL in ALL.
     
  19. Aquila

    Aquila New Member

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    (thesuperjag;53669)
    These scriptures you posted are referring to a different kind of death like in II Corinthians 5:17, but it is not the same death in Ezekiel 18:4, Ezekiel 18:20, Revelation 20:14)
    Ezekiel speaks of physical death as a result of sin. Revelation 20:14 indicates that the domains of death and hell (Hades) will pass away and all that will be left is the lake of fire serving to produce the "second death".
     
  20. treeoflife

    treeoflife New Member

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    (Aquila;53672)
    The Scriptures answer this question...look closely at the context:John 12:32-50And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me. 33This he said, signifying what death he should die. The "lifting up" up of Christ is his crucifiction. Essentially Jesus was saying, "And I, if I be [crucified], will draw all men unto me.
    *IF* He is lifted up (He spoke of His death) he will draw all men to Himself. This simply doesn't mean that all will be saved from the second death when He is crucified. There is a much different meaning to this that doesn't contridict God's Word. Not all will be saved. God makes it clear that there will be a seperation of those who are saved, and those who are not saved. You can't ignore this. Well, you can but you shouldn't. Universal salvation cannot be true.
     
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