/ Register

  1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Upon THIS Rock I will build my Church

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Small Fish, Aug 21, 2018.

Page 1 of 17
  1. Aug 21, 2018 #1
    Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    53
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    The importance of revelation by the Spirit to a true believer can never be over emphasized. Revelation means more to you than perhaps you realize. Now I am not talking about this Book of Revelation and you. I am talking about ALL revelation. It is tremendously important to the church. Do you remember in Matthew 16 where Jesus asked the disciples this question, "Whom do men say that I the Son of Man am? And they said, Some say that Thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets. He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Bar-jona; for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but My Father Which is in heaven. And I say unto thee, that thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it." The Roman Catholics say that the church is built upon Peter. Now that is really carnal. How could God build the church upon a man so unstable that he denied the Lord Jesus and cursed while doing it? God can't build His church upon any man born in sin. And it wasn't some rock lying there as though God had hallowed the ground at that spot. And it isn't as the Protestants say, that the church is built upon Jesus. It was the REVELATION. Read it the way it is written: "Flesh and blood hath not REVEALED it, BUT MY FATHER HATH REVEALED IT, and UPON THIS ROCK (REVELATION) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH:" The church is built on Revelation, on the "Thus Saith the Lord".

    - The Seven Church Ages WMB
     
    Uisdean, ScottA, faithfulness and 2 others like this.
  2. Aug 21, 2018 #2
    Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    53
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    To me it is very clear that the Rock Jesus speaks of here refers to the revelation of Who Jesus is.
    Therefore it must be the foundation that He builds His Church on and in turn, the reference point for the unity of the Church of God.

    Any thoughts on this?
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2018
    Heart2Soul, "ByGrace" and Mjh29 like this.
  3. Aug 21, 2018 #3
    VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,819
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    It is just an opinion but: It is not about the revelation; It is about an restored relationship with God. Father to son. Revelation reveals the relationship. As the word reveals the Son. If we only seek revelation...isn’t that what Satan tempted Eve with: knowledge. Genesis 3:5 [5] For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
     
    Nancy, amadeus, faithfulness and 2 others like this.
  4. Aug 21, 2018 #4
    APAK

    APAK Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,176
    Likes Received:
    896
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Small Fish:

    How does Christ build his body of believers today? The same way as when Peter revealed the true identity of Jesus. It was through his Father and ours; his actions. The spirit of God reveals him/itself to Peter. God is the rock of salvation. The spirit of God was in Peter. Jesus stated this fairly clearly. God is that sure rock of truth, there is no other way to come to believe in Christ to salvation. The spirit of God. The rock must be resident in your heart and mind.

    Bless you,

    APAK
     
    Nancy, Reggie Belafonte, amadeus and 1 other person like this.
  5. Aug 21, 2018 #5
    Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,048
    Likes Received:
    2,591
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada

    Revelation is a good answer...but restored relationship is an excellent answer! :)
     
    Heart2Soul, Nancy, faithfulness and 1 other person like this.
  6. Aug 21, 2018 #6
    Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    53
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    So you feel that in Matthew 16:17-18, Jesus says that He is going to build His Church on our relationship with God?

    Matthew 16:17-18
    17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    So, according to these Scriptures, how do you come to this conclusion? Don't think I'm saying that relationship is not important or even one of the most important factors in your Christian walk but is that what Jesus said here?

    I feel this point is very important because right here, Jesus is giving us the key factor to what and how He is going to do this great work. And since He points out that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it, shouldn't we be more sure of this foundation?
     
  7. Aug 21, 2018 #7
    VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,819
    Likes Received:
    1,643
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Not build it on relationship...but a restored one. Big difference. Adam and Eve had relationship but lost it by seeking more and it was the very thing that cost them and generations to come: Genesis 3:5-6 “For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil. [6] And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat.”

    The Son is “the key” that opens life, and “the key” that opens Revelation; the Father draws whom He will to the Son: Restored relationship. Yes, Peter was given “the key” but not until Peter was tested and Satan sifted Peter as wheat, and Peter was converted. Then Peter’s call was to strengthen the brethren.
     
    Nancy, amadeus, faithfulness and 1 other person like this.
  8. Aug 21, 2018 #8
    brakelite

    brakelite Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,074
    Likes Received:
    1,017
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    The Rock in my opinion is the revelation that Jesus is the Son of God....as stated above by small fish. This is confirmed throughout the NT scriptures, affirming the fact that salvation comes to us only as we recognize the true relationship and identity of Christ. Here's some examples....
    Satan even tried to get Jesus to disbelieve His own identity. Think about it. Jesus is born as a pauper, with no memory of His previous existence, required to live just as we live...by faith in the word of God. The Father spoke to Jesus, "thou art MY beloved Son". And immediately Satan tries to get Jesus to doubt His own Father's testimony...even to the point of suggesting that Satan himself is the real deal, after all, he has ownership of all these kingdoms right???
    Mt 4:3 And when the tempter came to him, he said, If thou be the Son of God, command that these stones be made bread.
    Mt 4:6 And saith unto him, If thou be the Son of God, cast thyself down: for it is written, He shall give his angels charge concerning thee: and in their hands they shall bear thee up, lest at any time thou dash thy foot against a stone.

    But the demons did know exactly who He was...

    Mt 8:29 And, behold, they cried out, saying, What have we to do with thee, Jesus, thou Son of God? art thou come hither to torment us before the time?

    Jesus proclaimed it....

    Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
    Joh 5:25 Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
    Joh 9:35 Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and when he had found him, he said unto him, Dost thou believe on the Son of God?
    36 He answered and said, Who is he, Lord, that I might believe on him?
    37 And Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and it is he that talketh with thee.
    38 And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him.

    The apostles preached it, making it the foremost doctrine of the early church...

    Ac 8:37 And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.
    Ac 9:20 And straightway he (Paul) preached Christ in the synagogues, that he is the Son of God.

    nd the writers of the NT all united in proclaiming it...
    Paul....
    2Co 1:19 For the Son of God, Jesus Christ, who was preached among you by us, even by me and Silvanus and Timotheus, was not yea and nay, but in him was yea.
    Ga 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

    Peter....
    1 Peter 1:3 ¶ Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,
    2 Peter1:17 For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    John...

    1 Joh 1:3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
    1 Joh 2:22 Who is a liar but he that denieth that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist, that denieth the Father and the Son.
    23 Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father: (but) he that acknowledgeth the Son hath the Father also.
    24 Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son, and in the Father.
    1Jo 4:15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.
    1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?
    1Jo 5:10 He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son.
    1Jo 5:12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.
     
    Nancy, amadeus, "ByGrace" and 1 other person like this.
  9. Aug 21, 2018 #9
    Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    53
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    Yes precisely. You are right. The devils recognized Jesus, many sinners did too but not the religious leaders of those days. Though they were trained in the Scriptures, they missed Him. They were the ones that crucified Jesus after all. And have you noticed how the unbelievers uttered those same words, "if thou be the Christ or the Son of God then come down from the cross" They fell for the devil's lie. They had no revelation.

    But the point is, how can you have your relationship with Christ restored if Who he is, is not even revealed to you?

    John 8:24
    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    There Jesus stood right in front of Pilot when Pilot asked "what is truth?"
    But in Matthew 16, Peter confessed and proved that He understood Who the Son of Man is. Peter had the revelation! Judas did not. Judas only saw the veil. Judas could never recognize that Jesus was the Word, subsequently betraying Jesus.

    This is the make or break. So we can ask the people, "Are you still looking at the veil or is the veil rent in your life? Do you recognize Him?"
     
    Uisdean, Nancy, amadeus and 1 other person like this.
  10. Aug 21, 2018 #10
    "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,331
    Likes Received:
    8,708
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Yes, totally agree....good posts.
     
    Nancy and Willie T like this.
  11. Aug 21, 2018 #11
    Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    53
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    Thank you!
     
    Willie T and "ByGrace" like this.
  12. Aug 21, 2018 #12
    faithfulness

    faithfulness Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    212
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    Adam and Eve had relationship but lost it by seeking more and it was the very thing that cost them
    Covetousness and disregard for God...still costs.
     
    GodsGrace, Nancy, brakelite and 4 others like this.
  13. Aug 21, 2018 #13
    Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,860
    Likes Received:
    1,350
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    The way to read this as as follows: "Flesh and blood hath not REVEALED it, BUT MY FATHER HATH REVEALED IT, and UPON THIS ROCK (CHRIST) I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH".

    And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (Mt 16:18)

    κἀγὼ δέ σοι λέγω, ὅτι σὺ εἶ Πέτρος, (Petros = Peter = stone or boulder) καὶ ἐπὶ ταύτῃ τῇ πέτρᾳ (Petra = Christ = cliff or massive rock) οἰκοδομήσω μου τὴν ἐκκλησίαν, καὶ πύλαι ᾅδου οὐ κατισχύσουσιν αὐτῆς.

    Strong's Concordance
    Petros: "a stone" or "a boulder," Peter, one of the twelve apostles
    Original Word: Πέτρος, ου, ὁ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Masculine
    Transliteration: Petros
    Phonetic Spelling: (pet'-ros)
    Short Definition: Peter
    Definition: Peter, a Greek name meaning rock.

    Strong's Concordance
    petra: a (large mass of) rock
    Original Word: πέτρα, ας, ἡ
    Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
    Transliteration: petra
    Phonetic Spelling: (pet'-ra)
    Short Definition: rock
    Definition: a rock, ledge, cliff, cave, stony ground.

    Christians are not *built" into the Church by revelation but by Christ Himself through the New Birth. And the apostle Peter was certainly not the Rock of Ages.
     
    CoreIssue likes this.
  14. Aug 21, 2018 #14
    Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    53
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    That is not what I read. Sorry
     
    Willie T likes this.
  15. Aug 21, 2018 #15
    Willie T

    Willie T Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,775
    Likes Received:
    1,995
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    "Revelation" is the correct reading. Other views might have a leg to stand on were it not for the fact that it was Jesus, Himself, speaking about the "Revelation" just given to Peter by God.
     
    Nancy and "ByGrace" like this.
  16. Aug 21, 2018 #16
    Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,860
    Likes Received:
    1,350
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Then what you are reading into it is eisegesis. Here is the truth:
    And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. (1 Cor 10:4)
     
    Reggie Belafonte likes this.
  17. Aug 21, 2018 #17
    Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    53
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    Whatever.

    You know whats funny? Everytime you reply on one of my posts I already, even before reading it, know it'sgoing to be negative. I wonder why. But I've seen it a hundred times before.

    You are not the first.
     
  18. Aug 21, 2018 #18
    "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,331
    Likes Received:
    8,708
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Yes, agree.. :)
     
    Nancy and Willie T like this.
  19. Aug 21, 2018 #19
    Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,860
    Likes Received:
    1,350
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    There is nothing negative about pointing you to the truth. Indeed you should have been thankful.

    Christ is the only Rock and Foundation upon which the Church is built. And Peter's confession (obtained by divine revelation) -- that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God -- confirmed that. Therefore the Church is the Body, the Bride, and the Building of Christ.
     
    Reggie Belafonte, amadeus, APAK and 1 other person like this.
  20. Aug 21, 2018 #20
    Small Fish

    Small Fish Active Member

    Messages:
    131
    Likes Received:
    53
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    South Africa
    If only it was the truth. Furthermore you complicate it. God never intended for us to have University degrees in order to know the difference between right and wrong. That is bringing glory to yourselve and not to God.

    This is such a basic principle yet so few understand it. All you are giving me is your own opinion or whom ever the flesh and blood is who tought you this. You are not even at first base yet.
    I already know your interpretation and it does not take you any further in the realms of God.

    It's pretty obvious what He is saying in Matthew 16 and if you can't see it then you can't. Maybe because of your traditional teaching.

    This is the age of recognition. Recognition of who Jesus is. It is the age of the revelation of the Son of Man and is the exact reason the churches is still stuck in their own ideas and comes short of the unity in Christ. Luke 17.

    This revelation of the Son of Man is only for the few.

    Because to know Him is to have Eternal Live and you cannot know Him until He reveals Himself to you. This is what the churches have failed to see and the very reason they crucified Him. It's all playing out again.

    Why do you think the Book of Revelation is right at the end of the Bible? It is the unveiling of God. It is this revelation that will give the Bride rapturing faith. Faith cometh by hearing right? But not by the dead letter. That brings confusion and death. It has to be revealed or quickened by the Spirit.

    This is why revelation is so important. I doubt whether 1% of todays Christians even have the beginning of the revevelation of the son of man. If you don't, you don't have what you think you have. You are like an egg that have not been fertilized yet. It will rot in it's nest. So tell me, what makes your interpretation so special above the rest?

    Your understanding of the Scripture is still carnal, as in your case. The old denominational idea, not quickened by the Spirit yet. You are just left there sitting.

    John 8:24
    24 I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

    Do you know Him after the flesh (the historical Jesus) or by Spirit (the revelation of the Son of Man) which is to come in the end time in its fullness and has already come. And if so, why still all the confusion?
     
Page 1 of 17
Loading...