Validity of the gnostic texts?

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Bope

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The big news for the moment is the discovery of the gospel of Judas. What are your views on this and other gnostic texts?
 

HammerStone

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Excellent topic, I was actually going to start a post on this myself.Like a lot of other people right now, I've been very interested in this Gospel of Judas that has been such a hot story. I watched the National Geographic episode and I've listened to every report I've caught on the topic. I perhaps will do some further research on it when the time comes available.My overall impressions from the story are that it's an attempt to present a story that sheds a different light on Judas. Much of the Christian world wanted/still wants to use Judas as some sort of a scapegoat - someone to blame for the killing of Jesus and someone who is damned for all eternity.However, as the Bible tells us in Matthew 27:3 he repented. Deeper study reveals that the particular word used for repent is a word that means more about regret than repentence. It's something I'm stuggling with right now but I'm not so sure we won't see Judas in heaven. If anyone has any thoughts about that, I'd love to hear them.Getting back to the book itself though. My professor shared with us that there is a book published with some 1400 pages of NT apocrypha so it's not unexpected to see a book like this at all. Honestly speaking, I don't see this as some sort of huge, Biblical history changing, discovery like it was made out to be. I'd say the Dead Sea Scrolls are much more intriguing. That's my own personal opinion, though.From a faith perspective, I believe absolutely in the Bible. I don't believe for a moment that Jesus pulled Judas aside and said "hey I'll show you the secrets of heaven" or anything like this book claims.
 

Bope

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I have read a lot of the gnostic texts as well as other books not in the canonized Bible. I even read a lot of the Book Of Mormon. Those are some interesting reads, I have not seen an English translation of the gospel of Judas, although would love to read it. That way, i can give an opinion on it.Do you know of a resource for a translated version of Judas?Thanks.edit: I found it. It was nothing really earth shattering.
 

graceforums

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One word = INVALID.Irenaeus denounced it as heresy ca. A.D. 180 in his anti-gnostic Adversus Haereses. See here, section 1 of chapter 31 on the Doctrines of the gnostic sect called the Cainites.
 

gibby

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However, as the Bible tells us in Matthew 27:3 he repented. Deeper study reveals that the particular word used for repent is a word that means more about regret than repentence. It's something I'm stuggling with right now but I'm not so sure we won't see Judas in heaven. If anyone has any thoughts about that, I'd love to hear them.
I would have to disagree. He was remorseful because he got caught. Instead of repenting and starting new, Judas ran and hid from God and killed himself. Not a good picture of repentance.But you are right that we don't know who we will see in heaven. Perhaps as Judas was hanging there about to die, he truly repented in his heart. I guess we will see, huh? Only God can see the heart.
 

graceforums

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Judas was lost. He's described as the "son of perdition" by Jesus in John 17:12...
While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
He also described Judas as "not clean" in John 13:10-11...
Jesus saith to him, He that is washed needeth not save to wash [his] feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. For he knew who should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean.
I think the Scriptures are pretty clear on the issue.Shalom,
 

HammerStone

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I'd have to completely disagree with your observation in John 17. The Son of Perdition is not Judas, it is Satan, the one is condemned to die in the fiery pit.Again in John 13:10-11 there's a couple of things worth pointing out. Number one, Satan entered into Judas as described briefly in Luke 22:3. As told in Job, Satan can only do what is allowed of him by God. That's why Judas was unclean in this passage. We all know he was unclean with Satan at work in him but I'm not arguing that he was a devout man of God as the so called Gospel of Judas proposes. I'm, arguing that he repented of what he did shortly before he died.
 

graceforums

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Shalom Swampfox. :shepard: It is widely accepted within Christendom that the "son of perdition" in this context is indeed a reference to Judas. I don't think it's possible that Judas was ever saved for if he had saving faith, Satan would not have been able to "enter" him in the first place. Satan can be allowed to tempt us and attack us but he cannot "enter" us. The Spirit of God and Satan can have no fellowship together. Jesus knew from the beginning that Judas would betray Him (ref. John 6:64). It had to be so because it was an integral part of God's perfect plan of salvation.Blessings,
 

HammerStone

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It's widely accepted as a false teaching as well. I'm strongly against calling Judas the Son of Perdition because it's used to falsely teach the pretribulation rapture theory in many cases. The Son of Perdition is the one who is condemned and the only one who is assured to the pit is Satan himself. There's no real Biblical evidence linking Judas to this title of the Son of Perdition. It's an interpretation of the Son of Perdition and one that I believe strongly is a false teaching.Again, as I said before, Satan is subject to the will of God and the will of God can do anything.I want to point out that with the last statement it bothers me just a bit. You're saying this as if I'm attempting to change the meaning of what happened and clearly I am not. I do agree that Jesus knew beforehand all that would happen, as it is written is God's Word. However, that's not really even related to what I am saying.All I am putting forth is just don't be suprised when you arrive in heaven and come across Judas. There's no evidence that Judas committed the unforgivable sin. Judas is called the one who betrayed Jesus and not the Son of Perdition. As Acts 1:17 KJV says:"... and [Judas] had obtained part of this ministry."This part of the ministry of Jesus may very well have been enough to save him before he died.
 

graceforums

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It's widely accepted as a false teaching as well. I'm strongly against calling Judas the Son of Perdition because it's used to falsely teach the pretribulation rapture theory in many cases. The Son of Perdition is the one who is condemned and the only one who is assured to the pit is Satan himself. There's no real Biblical evidence linking Judas to this title of the Son of Perdition. It's an interpretation of the Son of Perdition and one that I believe strongly is a false teaching.
I don't link the two. I don't really have a dog in that eschatological fight. Jesus said to His chosen disciples, "one of you is a devil" (ref. John 6:70-71). Whether or not you think Judas is called "son of perdition", we must acknowledge that clearly he was called a devil.(SwampFox)
Again, as I said before, Satan is subject to the will of God and the will of God can do anything.
Certainly. And you present a very valid point. But I can't honestly believe that God would contradict Himself by allowing His Spirit to dwell in a vessel indwelled by Satan himself. For what communion hath light with darkness? (ref. 2 Cor. 6:14)(SwampFox)
I want to point out that with the last statement it bothers me just a bit. You're saying this as if I'm attempting to change the meaning of what happened and clearly I am not. I do agree that Jesus knew beforehand all that would happen, as it is written is God's Word. However, that's not really even related to what I am saying.
I didn't mean for my response to come across that way. Please accept my most humble apology. I only intend to reach a sound exegesis of the Scriptures rather than falling to any sort of polluted eisegesis.(SwampFox)
All I am putting forth is just don't be suprised when you arrive in heaven and come across Judas. There's no evidence that Judas committed the unforgivable sin. Judas is called the one who betrayed Jesus and not the Son of Perdition. As Acts 1:17 KJV says:"... and [Judas] had obtained part of this ministry."This part of the ministry of Jesus may very well have been enough to save him before he died.
Though it may be possible, I must say that it's highly doubtful. If Judas had a repentant heart, moreover, a regenerated heart, I don't think he would have hanged himself. He would more likely have lived to become an even greater apostle than Paul.Shalom,
 

HammerStone

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I don't link the two. I don't really have a dog in that eschatological fight. Jesus said to His chosen disciples, "one of you is a devil" (ref. John 6:70-71). Whether or not you think Judas is called "son of perdition", we must acknowledge that clearly he was called a devil.
What's to acknowledge here - the Word of God says it and I both believe and ackonwledge it. The title of devil can mean many things and the title "son of perdition" means something entirely different. You cannot possibly loop the two together.
Certainly. And you present a very valid point. But I can't honestly believe that God would contradict Himself by allowing His Spirit to dwell in a vessel indwelled by Satan himself. For what communion hath light with darkness? (ref. 2 Cor. 6:14)
I think you're missing what I am saying. As the episode with Peter taught us, the revelations come to us from God:Matthew 16:17And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.This is the element of divine control. As I pointed out, and will continue to point out, Judas repented after the act. My point is, that God allowed Satan to enter into Judas (Luke 22:3) and Judas betrayed Jesus to the high priest. There's no contradiction with this of the verse you presented.And do not worry about the apology - I guess I just took the comment the wrong way. I'm enjoying the discussion here.
 

HammerStone

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Though it may be possible, I must say that it's highly doubtful. If Judas had a repentant heart, moreover, a regenerated heart, I don't think he would have hanged himself. He would more likely have lived to become an even greater apostle than Paul.
I think it's very hard to put yourself in the place of Judas. Killing the Saviour is quite a weight to carry whereas Paul persecuted Christians. At this point, though, it all becomes speculation as to what he would have done and is outside the scriptures.
 
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