Verses that DON'T convey what they say ...

[Bobby Jo]

It's always disturbing to hear someone cite Scripture which doesn't convey what people come away with. Take for example:

• "the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence ... ", -- where people presume that Christians will be persecuted, when in fact WE are the ones who must use "violence" (better: ardent action) to receive the things of GOD.

• "don't worry about tomorrow for today ...", -- where people think we shouldn't plan, when in fact, if we sit around "planning", nothing will get done today. And what you should have accomplished TODAY, will have to be done TOMORROW. So do what you can TODAY, and worry about tomorrows tasks, tomorrow!

• "no man knows the day or the hour ...", -- where people extrapolate this to presume we can't know ANYTHING about the timing of Jesus' return, when certainly the YEAR is cited in Scripture, and we can know HIS return down to the WEEK.

... among others ...​

And of course there are MANY other verses which are not properly rendered from the Original text (Masoretic or other), typical of:

• "seventy weeks are decreed ...", which is interpreted as seventy sevens = 490, when in fact the "weeks" are not the usual Concise Feminine Gender text, but instead are the UNUSUAL INCONCISE Masculine Gender text. Thus the durations could be any number EXCEPT 490.

• "seven and sixty two ...", where Newton observed that summing the two numbers "does violence to Scripture", as NO nation or society uses numbers in such fashion, and that if GOD had wanted to convey "sixty-nine" HE would have said "sixty-nine".

... among others ...​

But often times we are so committed to our "understandings" that we refuse to change from our "tradition" to FACT. It's like my favorite aunt used to tease: My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts! -- The difference being that she was only kidding, but the church is SERIOUS!


Bobby Jo

 

[Willie T]

I think it is just the biggest joke when I hear people swear they read every word of the Bible, "literally."

 

[Bobby Jo]

... but there IS a passage which is PERFECTLY CORRECT AS WRITTEN, but the ~entire~ christian community assigns different words than are presented:

Dan. 1:21 And Daniel continued until the first year of King Cyrus.

Dan. 10:1 In the third year of Cyrus king of Persia a word was revealed to Daniel, ...​

BOTH statements are exactly correct, but even the esteemed CALVIN sees what is WRITTEN, but excuses a different version:

http://m.ccel.org/ccel/calvin/calcom24.vii.xx.html?bcb=right

Expositors are puzzled with this verse, because, as we shall afterwards see, the Vision occurred to Daniel in the third year of Cyrus’s reign. Some explain the word היה, haiah,by to be “broken;” but this is by no means in accordance with the history. Their opinion is right who say that Daniel continued to the first year of the reign of Cyrus in the discharge of the prophetic office, although expositors do not openly say so; but I state openly what they say obscurely. For since he afterwards set out into Media, they say this change is denoted here. But we may understand the words better in the sense of Daniel’s flourishing among the Chaldeans and Assyrians, and being acknowledged as a celebrated Prophet; because he is known to have interpreted King Belshszzar’s vision, on the very night on which he was slain. The word here is simple and complete — he was — but it depends on the succeeding ones, since he always obtained the confidence and authority of a Prophet with the kings of Babylon. This, then, is the true sense.​

And I've yet to find any commentator, preacher, teacher, or self professed Forum Subject-Matter-Expert (of which there is no shortage) who can resolve the simple solution where BOTH 1:21 & 10:1 are PERFECTLY CORRECT AS WRITTEN.


... and I don't expect any solution from this Topic/Post!
Bobby Jo

 

[DNB]

Yes, I do agree that it is bewildering at times just how some people exegete, correlate and extrapolate scripture, ...and I've made some blunders myself. But, on the same note, I'm always the first to say just how difficult Biblical interpretation is. Not in a broad sense, as in following the overall historical and salvific message, but as in getting all the doctrines down.

For example, I often said how amazing it is that, to me, the most definitive aspect of the Christian religion, that is, the atonement (no other religion addresses sin and salvation), is so diverse and perplexing to so many of us? You'd think that we'd at least have a consensus on this paramount facet of our theology? Of course, most agree on the fundamental aspect that Christ died for our sins, and that salvation comes by faith due to the gracious gift from God. But, try explaining the logistics of it, or what that actually means as far its efficacy is concerned, or judicial soundness, ...and now the factions and dissensions start.

I've always said that God has intended there to be a certain amount of complexity and profundity to his Word, in order to separate the boys from the men, and also to both confound and blind the skeptics. i.e. watch them bicker over whether Noah could've actually carried all species of animals on the ark or not, and miss the over-arching point about the omniscient God's displeasure with his own creation?

Exegesis has its challenges, but still, i think sometimes that radical and unfounded conclusions reflect a disposition of one's heart, and this is why God intentionally left certain details out, or wrote certain books in an unconventional manner (not chronological, unsigned, different details of the same events, historical statements and facts that also have a prophetical significance, etc...).

 

[Bobby Jo]

Yes, I do agree that it is bewildering at times ...

Hi DNB,

I think that we have ALL THE INFORMATION necessary to understand what Scripture is attempting to covey. Otherwise, GOD is wasting HIS time and our time, -- and I don't think HE's playing a joke on us. There REALLY is a solution to Scriptural "riddles" if we're simply willing to receive.

But how many seek HIS TRUTH, versus occupy a pew?!?

Jeremiah 33:3 Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things which you have not known.​

So take for example the Rev. 13:18 "666". How many people have confounded themselves when a simple survey of society provides a simple answer. -- Take the world's language (English) and assign increments of "6", such that A=6; B=12 etc., and sum the technology (C O M P U T E R) which will be used to control who is able to buy and sell. And use the SAME METHODOLOGY to discover who the a/c is. Easy Peasy.


Scripture's really not that difficult, but as you suggest, for some IT'S HIDDEN!

Bobby Jo

 

[DNB]

Hi DNB,

I think that we have ALL THE INFORMATION necessary to understand what Scripture is attempting to covey. Otherwise, GOD is wasting HIS time and our time, -- and I don't think HE's playing a joke on us. There REALLY is a solution to Scriptural "riddles" if we're simply willing to receive.

But how many seek HIS TRUTH, versus occupy a pew?!?

Jeremiah 33:3 Call to me and I will answer you, and will tell you great and hidden things which you have not known.​

So take for example the Rev. 13:18 "666". How many people have confounded themselves when a simple survey of society provides a simple answer. -- Take the world's language (English) and assign increments of "6", such that A=6; B=12 etc., and sum the technology (C O M P U T E R) which will be used to control who is able to buy and sell. And use the SAME METHODOLOGY to discover who the a/c is. Easy Peasy.


Scripture's really not that difficult, but as you suggest, for some IT'S HIDDEN!

Bobby Jo

Yes, definitely, we have all the necessary facts & clues before us, and no, of course, God is not playing a joke, but divulging facts in a not so straightforward manner, is a very clever and wise way to expose the misguided, and to separate them from the humble and sincere. The atheists will always gravitate straight to the perceived historical or logistical discrepancies, never to the spiritual and heart related issues. God is exposing where their concerns lie, or how they'll use any petty argument to undermine the veracity of His Word, when the truly inspired insights and wisdom are right before them. It's actually quite revealing, and utterly pathetic and shameful really.

But, Bobby Jo, I'm not 100% sure that I agree with your hermeneutics in this particular case. If not for the simple reason that I can't truly verify it with scripture. At this point, your conclusion is a valid as anyone else's, neither carrying more weight than the other. For, my first contention would be that the numerology of the Bible, is based on the ancient languages that had numeric values pre-assigned to their alphabets. Meaning, the values were already there before the Bible was written, and therefore, there's no speculation as to what each letter equals. Your methodology, on the other hand, I've never heard of before, and was always convinced that the English language never had this intrinsic numeric assignment?
So, I may question your hermeneutics in this particular case?

 

[reformed1689]

"no man knows the day or the hour ...", -- where people extrapolate this to presume we can't know ANYTHING about the timing of Jesus' return, when certainly the YEAR is cited in Scripture, and we can know HIS return down to the WEEK.

Oh really? Where is that citation?

 

[Bobby Jo]

Oh really? Where is that citation?

First of all I don't think you're interested in an answer. I suspect your mind is already made up and you don't want to be confused with anything outside your paradigm.


Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

First of all I don't think you're interested in an answer. I suspect your mind is already made up and you don't want to be confused with anything outside your paradigm.


Bobby Jo

In other words, there is no citation of the year in Scripture.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Bobby Jo, I'm not 100% sure that I agree with your hermeneutics in this particular case. If not for the simple reason that I can't truly verify it with scripture. ...

You make a good point, -- but History has a multi faceted confirmation of Scripture. And Deut. 18:22 says we use History to prove or disprove a "word from the LORD", which would seem to apply equally to a Prophet or to Scripture.

I've given you a solution and equally suggested the confirmation -- USING THE SAME METHODOLOGY --, which I've NEVER seen any FALSE interpretation have an integrated confirmation typical of: Ronald Reagan; Bill Gates; John & Jacqueline Kennedy; ... ad nauseam.

In addition, when we consider "binary"; the "palm/retinal scan"; UPC barcode; and "peace sign"; we FURTHER validate not only the "666", but can surmise the "777".


Of course, I don't expect anyone to know what they don't know.
Bobby Jo

 

[Bobby Jo]

In other words, there is no citation of the year in Scripture.

Yep, -- none that you are aware of.

Does this surprise you?
Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

Yep, -- none that you are aware of.

Does this surprise you?
Bobby Jo

What doesn't surprise me is that you have yet to provide the citation. Why is this so difficult for you? Why not just cite it? I don't claim to have the entire Bible memorized, I doubt you have the entire Bible memorized either. Just cite the verse.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Just cite the verse.

Chapter! -- Who said "verse". I never said "verse". If you want me to cite a "verse", then you're out of luck.


And yeah, I don't think you're in any mood to consider what Scripture says, so why waste BOTH our time?!?
Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

Chapter! -- Who said "verse". I never said "verse". If you want me to cite a "verse", then you're out of luck.


And yeah, I don't think you're in any mood to consider what Scripture says, so why waste BOTH our time?!?
Bobby Jo

Fine what Chapter? Instead of engaging in ad hominem why don't you back up your claim. You know as they say "put up or shut up."

 

[jshiii]

It's always disturbing to hear someone cite Scripture which doesn't convey what people come away with. Take for example:

• "the kingdom of heaven suffereth violence ... ", -- where people presume that Christians will be persecuted, when in fact WE are the ones who must use "violence" (better: ardent action) to receive the things of GOD.

• "don't worry about tomorrow for today ...", -- where people think we shouldn't plan, when in fact, if we sit around "planning", nothing will get done today. And what you should have accomplished TODAY, will have to be done TOMORROW. So do what you can TODAY, and worry about tomorrows tasks, tomorrow!

• "no man knows the day or the hour ...", -- where people extrapolate this to presume we can't know ANYTHING about the timing of Jesus' return, when certainly the YEAR is cited in Scripture, and we can know HIS return down to the WEEK.

... among others ...​

And of course there are MANY other verses which are not properly rendered from the Original text (Masoretic or other), typical of:

• "seventy weeks are decreed ...", which is interpreted as seventy sevens = 490, when in fact the "weeks" are not the usual Concise Feminine Gender text, but instead are the UNUSUAL INCONCISE Masculine Gender text. Thus the durations could be any number EXCEPT 490.

• "seven and sixty two ...", where Newton observed that summing the two numbers "does violence to Scripture", as NO nation or society uses numbers in such fashion, and that if GOD had wanted to convey "sixty-nine" HE would have said "sixty-nine".

... among others ...​

But often times we are so committed to our "understandings" that we refuse to change from our "tradition" to FACT. It's like my favorite aunt used to tease: My mind's made up, don't confuse me with the facts! -- The difference being that she was only kidding, but the church is SERIOUS!


Bobby Jo

Let's simplify this! Scripture is Perfect! Jesus's Word Is Perfect! The Bible is Infallible! The problem is us Humans! Unbelievers, yea just totally write them off on their interpretation. Also, you can include many Christians that think they can take a LEAP out there on their own and every interpretation they make is Holier than Thou! Always be skeptical of Human interpretation, until you get on your knees and pray!!!!!! Don't ever JUMP ahead of God! Sometimes understanding may take yearssssss! My point, be humble, show and give love, and PRAY everyday for Wisdom and Revelation! AND PLEASE, do not open your mouth until your SPIRIT is FULL and you are prompted by the LORD! His Will Be Done Forever! Not OURS!

By the way, I am guilty of opening my mouth when I shouldn't. It has taken me years to put all my Faith in our Lord Jesus Christ, instead of myself. It's just the way it is! Takes time to grow into a mature Christian, and even then we can still trip up, falling flat on our face!

The Lord Jesus Christ ONLY, is Worthy of all our Praise and Worship!
Eternity is a Very long Time!
Satan Loves Distraction!

 

[Bobby Jo]

Fine what Chapter? Instead of engaging in ad hominem why don't you back up your claim. You know as they say "put up or shut up."

Ok, but MAN UP OR SHUT UP, -- which means for you to be responsible to follow through on an impartial evaluation, as opposed to having a pre-determined outcome. (Yeah, good luck on that ...)

#1. In what Book/Chapter is the SHORTEST Chapter in all Scripture?

#2. In what Book/Chapter is the LONGEST Chapter in all Scripture?

#3. In what Book/Chapter is the MIDDLE Chapter in all Scripture?

#4. Given the premise proposed by J.R. Church in his book "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", where Book 19, Chapter 48 = 19-48 International Recognition of the nation/state of Israel, -- what Chapter is 70 years after Chapter 48?

#5. What year did Trump recognize Jerusalem as the Capital of Israel?
​

Question:

Given the S/L/M Chapters and the J.R. Church premise, is the proximity of these Chapters, Events, & Dates coincidental or by design?

​

Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

#1. In what Book/Chapter is the SHORTEST Chapter in all Scripture?

#2. In what Book/Chapter is the LONGEST Chapter in all Scripture?

#3. In what Book/Chapter is the MIDDLE Chapter in all Scripture?

Scripture wasn't written in chapter and verse so the answer is none.

#4. Given the premise proposed by J.R. Church in his book "Hidden Prophecies In The Psalms", where Book 19, Chapter 48 = 19-48 International Recognition of the nation/state of Israel, -- what Chapter is 70 years after Chapter 48?

Psalms is not book 19 and it's not chapter 48. The OT books are arranged in topical order. Has nothing to do with Scripture itself. So this theory is flawed from the start. to

Question:
Given the S/L/M Chapters and the J.R. Church premise, is the proximity of these Chapters, Events, & Dates coincidental or by design?

Completely coincidental considering the Bible was not written in Chapter/Verse nor was it written in the order that we currently have it arranged. The order of the books are not inspired, the chapter/verse markers are not inspired and are not themselves part of Scripture. It is a navigation tool that was devised by me to make things easier to reference.

That being said, you lied when you said SCRIPTURE stated the year. Scripture does not state the year and this is why you were so hesitant to answer because you knew it wasn't in Scripture. Rather, it was a crazed theory of people bringing things to Scripture that have nothing to do with scripture and making interpretations based upon it. It's nonsense.

 

[Bobby Jo]

Let's simplify this! Scripture is Perfect! Jesus's Word Is Perfect! The Bible is Infallible! The problem is us Humans! ...

Hi jshiii,

I wholeheartedly agree, but my indirect point is as you suggest, that we MUST SEEK GOD to receive the "kingdom of heaven". It won't come to us while reclining on a sofa, munching Lays® potato chips, sipping a Pepsi®, and watching Oprah®; or sitting in a pew being regurgitated upon. We MUST ardently purse the deeper things, and that takes effort and persistence!


Bobby Jo

 

[reformed1689]

We MUST ardently purse the deeper things, and that takes effort and persistence!

And apparently taking in nonsense about the significance of chapter and verse which are not part of Scripture.

 

[Bobby Jo]

... Psalms is not book 19 ...

I told you that you'd waste both of our time, because you can't even follow a thought which is outside your paradigm.

BOOKS OF THE KING JAMES BIBLE (KJV)

1. Genesis
2. Exodus
3. Leviticus
4. Numbers
5. Deuteronomy
6. Joshua
7. Judges
8. Ruth
9. 1 Samuel
10. 2 Samuel
11. 1 Kings
12. 2 Kings
13. 1 Chronicles
14. 2 Chronicles
15. Ezra
16. Nehemiah
17. Esther
18. Job
19. Psalms

Apparently we can't trust our Legislators, our State Department, our Law Enforcement, our Intelligence Agencies, and the list goes on and on and on, and includes people who tell us they're "Pastors" when in fact they're simply HIRELINGS.


Whew,
Bobby Jo