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Featured Virgin Mary---the New Ark of the Covenant?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by tabletalk, Mar 28, 2017.

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  1. tabletalk

    tabletalk Well-Known Member

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    This meme was posted by Kepha31 in one of the forums:


    [​IMG]



    Anyone care to explain/defend that statement? Can the Protestants accept that name for the Virgin Mary?
     
  2. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    [SIZE=11pt]Understanding Mary – The [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ark[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] of the New Covenant[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]The Ark of the Covenant – the holiest object in ancient [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] went missing in 587 BC when Jeremiah concealed the ark to preserve it from the Babylonians when they came to destroy the [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Temple[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]. The story is in 2 Maccabees.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]When Jeremiah arrived there, he found a room in a cave in which he put the tent, the ark, and the altar of incense; then he blocked up the entrance. Some of those who followed him came up intending to mark the path, but they could not find it. When Jeremiah heard of this, he reproved them: “The place is to remain unknown until God gathers his people together again and shows them mercy. Then the Lord will disclose these things, and the glory of the Lord will be seen in the cloud, just as it appeared in the time of Moses and when Solomon prayed that the Place might be gloriously sanctified.”[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (2Mac 2:5-8)[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Then in Revelation John says he has seen the ark. This would be truly astounding to the Jews of that time. After 6 centuries the ark was seen again. In his book Hail Holy Queen Scott Hahn describes this. I’ll summarise his points but give direct quotes from the book in blue.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]John prepares his reader in many ways for the appearance of the ark. The ark appears, for example, after the blare of the seventh trumpet of the seventh avenging angel. This is a clear allusion to [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] of the old covenant.[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (see [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Joshua 6:13[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] and [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Jericho[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] falling on the 7th day and blowing the horn seven times). [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]As we might expect the ark appears with spectacular and special effects: “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen within His temple; and there were flashes of lightning, voices, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and heavy rain (Rev 11:9).[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]John builds up the anticipation. The [Jewish] readers want to see the ark as John sees it. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]What follows then is jarring because the chapter finished. But the chapters are artificial, inserted by scribes in the middle ages, and the story continues immediately in chapter 12. Thus the special effects at the end of the chapter served as an immediate prelude for the image that now appears at the beginning of chapter 12. We can read those lines together as a description of a single event: “[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant was seen….[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she laboured to give birth.” [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]([/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Rev 11:19[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]-12:2).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]John has shown us the ark of the covenant – and it is a woman.[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Who is this woman. Well she is identified as giving birth to[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]a son, “[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod”[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]– reference to Psalm 2:9.[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]Moreover[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] “Her child was caught up to God and his throne” [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]so the child is clearly Jesus.[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]This makes the woman Mary. Moreover referring to her as “the woman” is an allusion to the woman of Genesis (Eve) who was “[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]mother of all the living[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]”. This woman too is the mother of the living – those who are living in Christ; [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]“Then the dragon became angry with the woman and went off to wage war against the rest of her offspring, those who keep God’s commandments and bear witness to Jesus.”[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] ([/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Rev 12:17[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]). This “woman” is the one whom Jesus addresses as “woman” at [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Cana[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] and at the cross. At the cross Jesus gave the “woman”, Mary his mother, as mother to all his beloved disciples – us, those who keep his commandments.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]The old [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ark[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] contained (Manna) bread from heaven; the new [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ark[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] contained the bread of life, the new bread from heaven (see [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Jn [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]6:31[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]-32[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]The old [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ark[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] carried the written word of God (Ten Commandments); the new [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ark[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] contained the living Word of God[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]The old [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ark[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] contained the symbol of the High Priest (Aaron’s Rod); the new [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ark[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] contained the eternal High Priest.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]As Scott Hahn says[/SIZE] [SIZE=11pt]“Whatever made the [old] ark holy made Mary even holier..…. What John saw in the heavenly temple was far greater than the ark of the old covenant – the ark that had radiated the glory cloud before the menorah, at the heart of the temple of ancient [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Israel[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]. John saw the ark of the new covenant, the vessel chosen to bear God’s covenant into the world once and for all.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]But John is not the only evangelist to see Mary as the ark of the new covenant.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Luke, who is believed to get his infancy narratives from Mary herself, seems to identify Mary with the Ark by drawing comparisons between Mary’s visit to Elizabeth (Lk chap 1) and David’s expedition to recover the Ark (2 Sam 6)[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]1. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]David travelled to the “house of Abinadab on a hill”. [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Mary travelled to the “hill country” [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]2. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]David feared the Lord that day and said, “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?”[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (2[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] Sam 6:9) [/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Elizabeth[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] says[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] And how does this happen to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]? (Lk 1:43[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]3. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]The ark of the Lord remained in the house of Obededom the Gittite for three months[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (2 Sam [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]6:11[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Mary remained with her [[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Elizabeth[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]] about three months and then returned to her home.[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] ([/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Luke 1:56)[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]4. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]David “danced before the Lord”.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]The infant in [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Elizabeth[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]’s womb [John] “leaped for joy” in her womb.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]5. [/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]The ark returns to its home and ends up in [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Jerusalem[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], where God’s presence and glory is revealed in the temple (2 Sam. [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]6:12[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]1 Kgs. 8:9[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]–11).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]Mary returns home and eventually ends up in [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Jerusalem[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt], where she presents God incarnate in the temple (Luke [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]1:56[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]; [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]2:21[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]–22).[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]There is one more place where Luke indicates that Mary is the new [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ark.[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] He reports the angel saying to Mary [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]“The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt].” (Lk 1:35). The Greek word for overshadow is the same Greek word used in [/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ex 40:34[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (in the Greek LXX) when the glory cloud of the Lord (the Shekinah Glory) covered (overshadowed) the tent of meeting.[/SIZE]

    [SIZE=11pt]From This Rock Magazine[/SIZE]
    [SIZE=11pt]Athanasius of Alexandria[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: "O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt]Ark[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides" (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).

    Gregory the Wonder Worker
    (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: "Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary" (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).

    The Catechism of the Catholic Church
    [/SIZE] echoes the words from the earliest centuries: "Mary, in whom the Lord himself has just made his dwelling, is the daughter of [SIZE=11pt]Zion[/SIZE][SIZE=11pt] in person, the Ark of the Covenant, the place where the glory of the Lord dwells. She is ‘the dwelling of God . . . with men’" (CCC 2676).[/SIZE]
     
  3. Born_Again

    Born_Again Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Oh no..... Here we go...
     
  4. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Yup - how dare those darn Catholic answer a question . . .
     
  5. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    And have the temerity to use the Bible to do it!
     
  6. tabletalk

    tabletalk Well-Known Member

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    Here's a quote from St.Peter's List:

    "Mary was “full of grace” because the (she) was born without original sin and had remained sinless in order to be the New Ark of the Covenant, the Mother of God."

    So, a key issue with Mary being the New Ark of the Covenant is her Immaculate Conception? If so, please explain how this infallible teaching came about. I'm pretty sure your church uses Scripture, church Fathers and Doctors and Holy Tradition to establish this teaching. Does your church place most of the emphasis on Holy Tradition, which might be described as "the life of the Church" or "what the Catholic faithful have always believed?
     
  7. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    This thread is about Mary as the new Ark of the Covenant. I suggest that diving off into another big topic is not a good idea. This is how threads about Mary get into a mess. People may want to actually discuss this particular topic.

    Can I suggest, to keep things tidy, that you start a new thread on Mary as sinless or the Immaculate Conception (not the same topic). I, or another Catholic here, will be pleased to answer either or both topics.

    P.S. If you already had all the arguments from "St.Peter's List" why did you raise this topic at all?
     
  8. Born_Again

    Born_Again Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    Thats why I said, "Here we go". The topic is loaded. I'll let it go for now, but its entirely possible this one will get locked reasonably fast.
     
  9. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Was the Ark of the Old Covenant just a storage box? THAT is what gives us a sense of the sacred, a foreshadow of the Ark of the New Covenant.
    On Mt. Sinai, God gave Moses instructions for building the Ark of the Covenant. The construction is minutely described (see Exodus 25:1-22). The Ark’s most important contents are the tablets of the Law (see Exodus 25:16), God’s covenant with His people.
    Is this a fact? Yes or no?

    It also contained a sample of the manna that fed the Israelites in the desert (see Exodus 16:14-16)
    Is this a fact? Yes or no?

    and the rod of Aaron the high priest.
    Is this a fact? Yes or no?

    Assuming you are not in denial of the above facts, we now determine when the Incarnation took place. Did Jesus become God/man before, at the point of, or after the incarnation? Assuming you are an upstanding intellectual, you would admit the Incarnation took place the moment of, or very close to, when Mary said to the Archangel Gabriel, "Be it done to me according to your Word". BAM!

    It's not a stretch to say that Mary bore God in her womb. The Greek is "Theotokos".

    Now lets compare this with the contents of the Ark of the Old Covenant with the contents of Mary's womb.
    OLD ARK..................................NEW ARK
    The Word in stone ...................The Word in Flesh
    Desert manna...........................The Bread of Life
    The rod of Aaron......................Jesus the High Priest

    Therefore Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant, as foreshadowed by the Old.


    [​IMG]
     
  10. tabletalk

    tabletalk Well-Known Member

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    Scripture does not mention a new ark of the covenant, as far as I can tell.
    So, I deny that Mary should be described that way.
    The first 3 questions you asked: I'm pretty sure the answer is yes to them. But, "Did Jesus become God/man before, at the point of, or after the incarnation?", I have no opinion on that question.
    I'm not an upstanding intellectual, only a very minor member of the Body of Christ.
    But, thanks for replying.
     
  11. tabletalk

    tabletalk Well-Known Member

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    P.S.: Because I am opposed to The Catholic Church. I now have enough information to reject your church's teaching on this issue.
     
  12. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Scriptural proof #1:
    The Greek word is Kecharitomene that Luke used in his Gospel (v.1:28), which is the perfect passive participle, indicates a completed action with permanent result. It translates, “completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace.” By comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is charis. Kecharitomene is not a mere description here. It is used as a TITLE.
    The Angel didn’t say, “Hail Mary, full of grace.” He said, "Hail Kecharitomene."

    Scriptural proof #2:
    In the Book of Revelation, we see the New Ark of the Covenant in Heaven being spoken of at the very end of Chapter 11, verse 19:
    Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and the ark of his covenant could be seen in the temple. There were flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, an earthquake, and a violent hailstorm.
    The very NEXT verse is in Chapter 12 (Rev 12:1):
    A great sign appeared in the sky, a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars.


    Verse 2 says: She was with child and wailed aloud in pain as she labored to give birth.


    We know that this child is Jesus because in verse 4, we read:
    She gave birth to a son, a male child, destined to rule all the nations with an iron rod.

    There is simply no getting around the fact that the Woman here in Revelation 12 is Mary.

    Scriptural proofs #3, 4, 5, 6, 7 & 8:
    The following comparison chart illustrates the Old Testament type, the Ark of the Covenant with the New Testament fulfillments of that type, Mary:

    OT - The Word was written by God on Tablets of Stone (Ex. 25:10) placed inside the Ark (Deut. 10:1)
    NT - The Word of God became Flesh (John 1) conceived inside Mary (Luke 2:38) Mary carried the Word of God.

    OT - "Who am I that the Ark of my Lord should come to me?" (2 Sam. 6:9)
    NT - "Who am I that the mother of my Lord should come to me?" (Luke 1:43)

    OT - The When the Ark carrying the Word of God returned “David was leaping and dancing before the Lord” (2 Sam. 6:14)
    NT - When Mary came into Elizabeth's presence carrying the word of God, the baby “leaped for joy” in Elizabeth's womb (Luke 2:38)

    OT - The Ark carrying the Word of God is brought to the house of Obed-Edom for 3 months, where it was a blessing. (2 Sam. 6:11)
    NT - Mary (the new Ark) carrying the Word of God goes to Elizabeth's house for 3 months, where she is a blessing (Luke 1:56)

    OT - The Ark is captured (1 Sam 4:11) and brought to a foreign land and later returns (1 Sam 6:13)
    NT - Mary (the new Ark) is exiled to a foreign land (Egypt) and later returns (Matt. 2:14)

    OT - The On the Day of the Dedication of the Temple which Solomon built, there were 120 priests present (2 Chron. 5:11). The Ark of the covenant was carried into the Temple (2 Chron. 5:7) and fire came down from Heaven to consume the burnt offering (2 Chron. 7:7).
    NT - On the Day of Pentecost, there were 120 disciples of Jesus present in the Upper Room (Acts 1:15). Mar, the Mother of Jesus and the Ark of the NEW Covenant was also present while the Holy Spirit came down as tongues of fire (Acts 2:3).

    So much for YOUR claims about there being no Scriptural proof . . .
     
  13. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Which particular issue since you have raised several?

    What extra information have you gained?

    Why do you reject Catholic Church teaching?
     
  14. Born_Again

    Born_Again Well-Known Member Staff Member

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    If this thread is going to be an open attack on the RCC, then I will close it.

    BA
     
  15. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    The Incarnation is a standard matter of faith across all 3 main branches of Christianity. We have to explain who Jesus is before we can begin to explain Mary.
     
  16. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    The Old covenant was given by angels to Moses until the seed whom the promise referred had come. [Acts 7:53, Galatians 3:19] This is the law and the covenant. The law and the prophets up until John was pointing toward Christ. [Luke 16:16] The new covenant is in Christ. 2 Corinthians 3:14, Hebrews 9:15.

    The Ark that Noah made by the instructions of God, saved 8 people which is a shadow of Christ's salvation through his death and resurrection.1 Peter 3:18, 19, 20, 21.

    The covenant Ark that Moses made, housed the tablets of stone, Aaron's budding rod and the jar of manna which represented Christ's coming. Hebrews 9:4 The way ~ Aaron's budding rod [Numbers 17:10], The truth ~ The tablets of the covenant law, [Exodus 25:21] The Life ~ The Jar of Manna. [Exodus 16: 33-34]

    John 14:6 says ~ 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”
    5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”
    6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

    It also had an atonement lid with two Cherubim on either side with their wings spread out, overshadowing the cover. Exodus 25:17-21

    Scripture does not indicate in any way that Mary, the mother of Jesus had anything to do with God's plan to restore mankind back to himself through his son accept that she was chosen by God to be the bearer of the savior of the world. She is blessed, no doubt but she is not part of the Godhead nor had she died and rose again for the forgiveness of sins. There is only one way to the Father and that is through his Son Jesus Christ the Messiah and savior of our souls.

    Blessed!
     
    tabletalk likes this.
  17. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Thank you BA. Threads like this can degenerate into a bash fest.The most annoying insults are charges of idolatry.
    If a saint is truly being thought of as a replacement for God, and an end in and of himself, then it is idolatry. If it was thought, for example, that Mary could grant requests in and of herself, without the grace of God, as if she were self-sufficient (in effect, like God), that would clearly be Mariolatry and rank idolatry, since that is a replacement of God Himself. In the Catholic view, saints reflect God’s glory. They are intermediaries; vessels. Mary points inquirers to her Son, Who is God. She doesn’t lift up herself.
    It's a bit off topic but something that needed clarification.
     
  18. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    The Ark was something that kept safe the precious thing within it. Christ has gone before us as the Great high priest of a new covenant made through his blood. It's his blood that guarantees our redemption and it's his blood that cleanses us from sin. So if there is an ark to be had, I more inclined to believe that his blood has done it for us and the Ark is his Holy Spirit. When we believe in Christ by grace through faith, the promised Holy Spirit comes to dwell within us. We are that precious thing saved by grace through faith and the Holy Spirit is our Ark.

    The O/T ark had an atonement lid where blood was sprinkled for forgiveness of sins of the people yearly. Jesus has done away with sacrifice of animals through his own precious blood, once and for all.
     
  19. Marymog

    Marymog Well-Known Member

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    Hi Angelina,

    I see that you are a staff member for this website. I appreciate your service to the Christian community.

    You referenced Hebrews 9:4 which refers to a golden urn holding the manna.

    Since the OT and NT all tie in together revealing who our savior is, doesn't' Hebrews 9:4 tie into Jesus being the manna (bread) from heaven?

    Please allow me to explain my thought process on this:

    Jesus said to them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, it was not Moses (OT) who gave you the bread from heaven, but my Father gives you the true bread from heaven. For the bread of God is he who comes down from heaven and gives life to the world so that one may eat of it and not die. I am the living bread that came down from heaven. If anyone eats of this bread, he will live forever. And the bread that I will give for the life of the world is my flesh. Whoever feeds on my flesh has eternal life. For my flesh is true food. Whoever feeds on my flesh abides in me, and I in him so whoever feeds on me, he also will live because of me. This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like the breadthe fathers ate, and died. Whoever feeds on this bread will live forever.

    And when his disciples asked for this bread didn't Jesus say to them: “I am the bread of life". Also, Jesus took bread gave it to the disciples, and said, “Take, eat; this is my body."

    What golden urn held Jesus who is the NEW bread of life and not the old bread that our ancestors ate and died? Would that not have been Mary?

    I don't understand why this is considered only a "Catholic" thing. Isn't it a Christian thing?

    Mary
     
  20. Angelina

    Angelina Prayer Warrior Staff Member Admin

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    Hi Mary, welcome and well said! Please tell me why you connect the new bread as being Mary? :huh: or are you saying that the Urn is Mary?

    Added: Mary please also permit me to correct something that I have said in the above post. I am struggling with my computer which is throwing up an "auto adjust correction thingy" and covers the entire text while I am typing.
    The Way is Aarons budding rod and the Truth is the tablets of the covenant and the Life is the manna that was given to the church in the wilderness during their wanderings...I had put them in the wrong order, which I have now corrected.

    My apologies.
     
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