1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured Was Esau foreordained to be hated by God?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by shnarkle, Jul 30, 2019.

  1. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    244
    Paul clearly points out that what is foreknown is predestined, and while one could point out that the texts show God asking questions as if in ignorance, rhetorical questions are pervasive throughout both the Old and New Testaments; the figure Erotesis is especially common.

    So the claim that God simply knew what Esau would do beforehand doesn't make much sense especially when Paul then asks the rhetorical question: "Is there unrighteouness with God?" There is no need or point in asking this question if God's reason for hating Esau is due to his foreknowledge of Esaus's future evil deeds.

    Furthermore it isn't just Esau, but all of his descendants that are hated as well.

    Quote:
    And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste Mal.1:3


    It's ironic that most people don't see this as being fair to Esau, but the real problem isn't that it isn't fair to Esau, but that God's love is completely unwarranted to Jacob. All of Adam's descendants are under the same condemnation due to his rebellion. But God has chosen Jacob. God has decided to love Jacob, and favor him.

    God told Rebekah that the elder would serve the younger. Is there any chance that Esau could have proven himself worthy of his father's blessing or birthright? Evidently Isaac may have thought so given that he was willing to give Esau blessing despite God's

    Does the word "chance" really have any meaning when it comes to God's promises?
     
    Episkopos likes this.
  2. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,406
    Likes Received:
    831
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    "Does the word "chance" really have any meaning when it comes to God's promises?"

    No there is nothing about Gods promises that are due to luck or chance.

    God has determined who he will save and who he will condem.
     
    Anthony D'Arienzo likes this.
  3. Episkopos

    Episkopos Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    7,071
    Likes Received:
    7,404
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    Rom. 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
    14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
    15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
    16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
     
  4. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    238
    1) the Bible does not teach that foreknowledge demands predetermination.

    2) no verse says God hated the individual Esau. Malachi 1 is about Edom, Edom is being called Esau. It is not uncommon in the Bible that a nation be called after its progenitor Genesis 36:1; Genesis 36:8.

    3) also 'hate' in the Bible can mean love less or have less favor. God has less favor for Edom compared to Israel. Genesis 29:30-31 Leah is said to be 'hated' but the text shows she was loved less than Rachel or Rachel was loved more then Leah.

    4) God's choice of Jacob over Esau had nothing to do with their personal salvation nor their descendants salvation. God was choosing the lineage from which the Messiah would come to earth. Even though God chose Jacob and Israel, they still had to obey God to be saved and most of Israel did not and was lost.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
    amadeus, Reggie Belafonte and Nancy like this.
  5. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    244
    For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son,

    This word is the Greek " προώρισεν " which is from " proorizō" προορίζω proorízō, pro-or-id'-zo; from G4253 and G3724; to limit in advance, i.e. (figuratively) predetermine:—determine before, ordain, predestinate. which means
    1. to predetermine, decide beforehand

    2. in the NT of God decreeing from eternity

    3. to foreordain, appoint beforehand

    And the individual progenitor was not chosen like his brother.

    A distinction with no effective difference.

    At least we can agree that a choice was made and it was made by God. Your conclusion is in need of some deductive proof.

    So collectively, it necessarily follows that the church can also be lost as well. Paul makes the same observation when he states:

    Note also that he not only states that God is able to graft them in again, but also:

    Note that God foreknew them, and it is God who is doing the grafting, not any individuals or collective.
     
  6. Ernest T. Bass

    Ernest T. Bass Active Member

    Messages:
    693
    Likes Received:
    238
    Romans 8:29 "For whom he did foreknow," God has foreknown each and every person born into this world, does that mean each and every person has been predestined to be saved?

    (You did not show that foreknowledge always demands predetermination.)


    The choosing between Jacob and Esau did not have to do with their personal salvation but which lineage would bring the Messiah into the world.

    Just because Jacob was chosen did not automatically mean Esau would be lost. Esau could have obeyed God and be saved, and from all accounts I read in the Bible Esau most likely was saved.

    God chose Abraham over Melchisedec, did that automatically mean Melchisedec would be lost? No, for the choice was not about salvation.


    There is a difference between "detest-despise-loathe-abominate" and "love less". Luke 14:26 means one is suppose to hate-despise-detest his parents/wife/children or simple love parents/wife/children less than God per Matthew 10:37?


    But the choice was not about the personal salvation of either Esau or Jacob.


    The context in Romans 11 is about the fleshly Jews being cast off and the Gentiles being grafted in. Though the Jews were cast off, God did not make salvation for them impossible for they could still repent and believe Christ and be grafted in again. Romans 11 is not about the church being cast off but the fleshly Jews.


    Romans 11:1-2 the people God foreknew and did not cast off are those that obey God as Christians. So "His people" of Romans 11:1-2 cannot be fleshly Israel for they were cast off. Then why was Paul not cast off since he was a Jew in the flesh? Because he obeyed God and fleshly Israel disobeyed. God's people, OT and NT, has always been those that obey Him. In the OT, those that were God's people were the ones that obeyed God and did not bow to Baal, Romans 11:4. In the NT God's people are those who are elect according to grace, that is, those that obey the NT gospel, Romans 11:5 for those that obey NOT the gospel of Christ will be in flaming fire, 2 Thessalonians 1:8. So we can easily reject the Calvinist idea of election for it is not even remotely found in the context.
     
    Last edited: Jul 31, 2019
    amadeus likes this.
  7. Faither

    Faither Member

    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yet Jacob had to trick Esau out of His birthright!
     
  8. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    244
    Did God have no foreknowledge of that fact?
     
  9. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    244
    What do you think? What does the text say about it?

    I don't have to. I only have to point out Paul's argument, and Paul clearly points out that God can't foreknow what isn't predestined. Paul clearly points out that the only reason God can foreknow anything is that if it is predestined. This is irrefutable. However, I will grant that it doesn't necessarily mean that God is the one doing the predestinating, but then again; who cares? It doesn't change the fact that what is foreknown is predestined.

    Doesn't really matter, as it's just an example of God's sovereign power. It doesn't have to be in regards to salvation alone. He can point out that God's sovereign will is absolute by pointing out particular examples. His example doesn't suggest that God's will can be thwarted, does it?

    Then why suggest they could be cast off? Who else would he be referring to other than those he's writing to? How do you conclude he is contrasting fleshly Jews with fleshly Jews?




    Romans 11:1-2 the people God foreknew and did not cast off are those that obey God as Christians. So "His people" of Romans 11:1-2 cannot be fleshly Israel for they were cast off. Then why was Paul not cast off since he was a Jew in the flesh? Because he obeyed God and fleshly Israel disobeyed. God's people, OT and NT, has always been those that obey Him. In the OT, those that were God's people were the ones that obeyed God and did not bow to Baal, Romans 11:4. In the NT God's people are those who are elect according to grace, that is, those that obey the NT gospel, Romans 11:5 for those that obey NOT the gospel of Christ will be in flaming fire, 2 Thessalonians 1:8. So we can easily reject the Calvinist idea of election for it is not even remotely found in the context.[/QUOTE]
     
  10. Faither

    Faither Member

    Messages:
    65
    Likes Received:
    8
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    In my understanding, God spends way more of His time and resources keeping people out of heaven, than like a beggar sitting on the street corner hat in hand , saying," will you please accept me?"

    If He has foreknowledge about all things, His efforts would be exerted to change a foreknown outcome, sometimes?

    Some questions just won't be answered on this side of the curtain. And besides that, the life of faithing demands those things are none of our business, but God's business.
     
  11. FHII

    FHII Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,687
    Likes Received:
    1,453
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yea, he was hated and it was foreordained. God hated Esau and loved Jacob before they were born.

    Funny thing is that Esau wasn't that bad of a guy. Jacob wasn't that great of a guy, as well. Esau was Isaac's favorite: a hunter and a manly man. Jacob was a liar, deceiver and clinged to mamma.

    Despite losing his birthright, Esau forgave Jacob. And when Esau realized he lost his birthright he repented hard, but to no avail.

    There is this whole thing about "hate" meaning "loved less". Yeah, if you look up the word in Strong's it can mean that, but not in this case. When Paul said in Romans, "Jacob have I loved, Esau have I hated", he was quoting Malachi. There is no allowance for "love less" in the Hebrew definition.

    In Malachi, he is not talking about Edom. He is talking about Esau. If you believe he is talking about Edom then you must also say God loved Israel and not Jacob.

    And is it really better that God didn't hate the individual, but the whole linage of that individual? So God doesn't hate Esau, just all his descendants?
     
  12. TheWind

    TheWind Member

    Messages:
    95
    Likes Received:
    20
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada

    Proverbs 20:24 King James Version (KJV)
    24 Man's goings are of the Lord; how can a man then understand his own way?



    Isaiah 45:7 King James Version (KJV)

    7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil(WAR): I the Lord do all these things.



    Proverbs 16:4 King James Version (KJV)
    4 The Lord hath made all things for himself: yea, even the wicked for the day of evil(WAR).

    Free will is a lie.
     
  13. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    244
    If there is no choice, then there can be no free will. Your quotes show that there is a choice.
     
    bbyrd009 likes this.
  14. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

    Messages:
    25,799
    Likes Received:
    8,439
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States Minor Outlying Islands
    yes, it's all circular bs put out by "galileans" who dont know any better i guess
     
  15. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,571
    Likes Received:
    439
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    The foreknowledge has to do with the detail of the content of such, that's the reason why such is not favoured as to God.
    No where does the bible say that god knows the future at all, like as if a crystal ball say.
    The point of such is much like a wise man knows the future, as in the path one may take, like if you take such a path ? this will lead to X and another to Y.
    So you see that such a one would not know or regard such a path is not in tune with Gods ways, so they are not given such regard as is due to them that God sees fitting.

    As to the Jews they missed the boat 2000 years ago and they are a curse because they rejected God, just as anyone is a curse who rejects Jesus Christ. but one can change and come to Christ Jesus, it's much like Cain he was given that opportunity by God but sadly he rejected it, due to his own ego rebelling to God.
     
  16. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    244
    Not according to Paul. He says God has not abandoned Israel, and that all of Israel will be saved. That doesn't sound like a curse to me. Seems that Paul knows more about the future than the god you're describing.
     
    Stan B likes this.
  17. Reggie Belafonte

    Reggie Belafonte Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    1,571
    Likes Received:
    439
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Israel is not a place !
    Why would God abandon Israel, he never has or ever will abandon his Servants, now would he ?

    The fact of the matter is that Israel means "The Servants of God". not a place ! or as fools claim to be some sort of Race.

    So all of Gods Servants will be saved that's a fact and all who reject God are a curse in fact, now that's just simple logical fact of the mater.

    Paul is pointing out the fact.

    Satan claims that such a people are a race ? history proves that this is not what they are and so does the Bible in fact, all Tribes or Nations have a village idiot not to mention bastards and all, you just have to read the OT to see that at hand and not all of the Tribe of Israel were worthy of God at all and we can see that with their history when they turned their backs on God they fell and when they were with God they were victorious. it's the same within Christianity, the only people who are truly worthy of Jesus Christ are they who are born again because they serve Christ Jesus, now the ones who do not serve him are not worthy regardless and they who claim to be Christians does not mean that they truly are, as Jesus pointed this out for a fact, not to mention that one who claims to be a Jew does not truly mean that they are worthy of Holy Moses or Israel at all. just go to the State they call Israel and you will find that most do not look up to Holy Moses at all.

    Now I will put it to you, how can one call themselves Israel when the reject the King of Israel. The King of Israel is non other that Jesus Christ in fact ! it's not that hard to work that fact out is it ?
     
  18. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

    Messages:
    922
    Likes Received:
    244
    I never claimed Israel was a place or a race. Paul is pointing out that Israel stopped serving God, and started serving themselves instead. He also pointed out that he would die himself to save Israel, but in the end Israel will be saved. You can read all about it in his letter to the Romans.
     
  19. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    8,555
    Likes Received:
    10,478
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Consider!

    "Seek good, and not evil, that ye may live: and so the LORD, the God of hosts, shall be with you, as ye have spoken.
    Hate the evil, and love the good, and establish judgment in the gate: it may be that the LORD God of hosts will be gracious unto the remnant of Joseph." Amos 5:14-15

    Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

    "I have loved you, saith the LORD. Yet ye say, Wherein hast thou loved us? Was not Esau Jacob's brother? saith the LORD: yet I loved Jacob,
    And I hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste for the dragons of the wilderness." Mal 1:2-3

    So it may be confusing to us if we do not understand what "good" is:

    "And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God." Mark 10:18

    "None "good" but One", and so it is and as John writes:

    "Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is." I John 3:2

    If we in any part are "good" is it not because of God in us and/or working in us? We are to be like Him and as we approach that likeness is it not the "good" [godly part] in us that is moving us closer to Him?

    God hates Esau, why? Because he went from bad to worse. What is it that God hates? The evil! Apparently in the end there was nothing else left in the eyes of God.

    "He answered and said unto them, Because it is given unto you to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.
    For whosoever hath, to him shall be given, and he shall have more abundance: but whosoever hath not, from him shall be taken away even that he hath." Matt 13:11-12

    Is this not what happened to Esau? Like every man in his beginning he had hope of coming to God and becoming like Him. But when he rejected his hope, the hope that he had was taken away... and there was finally no room for him to repent. That was taken away.


    When there is only evil left then God who is love no longer responds. God does not respond to evil. Apparently this loss of any possible connection with God is what the scripture calls "hate". In other words for a God who is Love, no response at all would described as "hate".

    What was the end of Esau?

    "For ye know how that afterward, when he would have inherited the blessing, he was rejected: for he found no place of repentance, though he sought it carefully with tears." Heb 12:17

    Do we know when a person has reached that place where God will no longer respond to him at all? "No place of repentance"[unforgiveable sin?] Usually not.

    God might show us what is happening with another person, but unless He does specifically show us we should not give up hope and we should continue to pray for that person...

    "And the LORD said unto Samuel, How long wilt thou mourn for Saul, seeing I have rejected him from reigning over Israel? fill thine horn with oil, and go, I will send thee to Jesse the Bethlehemite: for I have provided me a king among his sons." I Sam 16:1
     
  20. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    5,306
    Likes Received:
    2,823
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    "Foreordained" is a word used for explanation, good only for the time that it was intended. That is to say, that men living in their times will live and think and understand all things according to time. So Paul explains in that context; and, yes, within the greater scheme of God's overall truth, time is its own context to be understood accordingly.

    However, time and the ways of men living in their times, is not the context for fully understanding the knowledge of God regarding anything within the time context...because God is not in the time context. Thus, in that greater timeless context of the knowledge of God...Esau's life, or that of any man...was not foreordained at all. With God in His "I am" context, everything...just [is]. "Foreordained" then, is simply a figure of speech, or a translation of the timeless things of God, into the times of men. This truth, this mystery, changes the word of scripture into proper context. This is what is meant by "rightly dividing the word of truth."

    In proper context, the knowledge of God that would appear to be "foreknowledge", is rather an unfolding revelation by manifestation in the world showing Esau (or any man) doing what he does because of what and who he [is] with God: All things have their source in the timelessness of God, and are merely revealed as the writings of a book that was written before the foundation of the world, "as it is written." As such, what we perceive to be a timeline of world events, is no timeline at all, but rather a story line. History, is His story.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2019
Loading...