Was God.....

  • Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

thelord's_pearl

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2021
1,335
1,868
113
O`nowhere you have to know
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not all-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!
 
Last edited:
  • Wow
Reactions: L.A.M.B.

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,229
8,925
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not ALL-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!
Ahh, but how do we know that God didn't have foreknowledge that Creation would fall? Maybe this was the plan all along?

Y'know, a few 55 gallon drums of Snake-Away (available at a Lowe's or Home Depot near you) sprinkled around the periphery of the Garden, and Creation would not have fallen.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not ALL-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!
What's to discuss? You are totally off base since you imagine you are wiser than God.
 

thelord's_pearl

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2021
1,335
1,868
113
O`nowhere you have to know
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
What's to discuss? You are totally off base since you imagine you are wiser than God.
I want to know other ideas, that's why :rolleyes: friendly jk. I don't want to say this about God, but that's all I could come up w/ and I would say it's ok for God to be not all-knowing or not all-intelligent. I would like to know other ideas that can be better than mine that would solve it better than me perhaps.
 

Enoch111

Well-Known Member
May 27, 2018
17,688
15,996
113
Alberta
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
I want to know other ideas, that's why :rolleyes: friendly jk. I don't want to say this about God, but that's all I could come up w/ and I would say it's ok to be not all-knowing or not all-intelligent. I would like to know other ideas that can be better than mine that would solve it better than me perhaps.
God sees the end from the beginning. He knows all things and sees all things. So He already saw that in the end He would have a family of God through Christ, and each one would have received the gift of everlasting life and the gift of the Holy Spirit. This would be far better than the Garden of Eden. God planned to make Christ the one who would have dominion over all creation and all creatures. So everything was part of a glorious plan, and we do not even know the half of it.
 

thelord's_pearl

Well-Known Member
May 1, 2021
1,335
1,868
113
O`nowhere you have to know
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
How is it glorious if only a FEW would enter the narrow gate of everlasting life? I'd rather God be not all-knowing and not all-intelligent than to be the one who would know that MANY would go to hell
 

Space_Karen

Well-Known Member
Oct 1, 2022
416
289
63
39
west coast
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He was grieved/disappointed at His creation so that's why I thought God was not exactly all-knowing or all-intelligent

I think everyone knows and has experienced the same disappointment God has felt towards people.

But it doesn't mean that life isn't still a great and wonderful thing. Or that people do not have many redeeming qualities which outweigh the bad.
 
Last edited:

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,229
8,925
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He was grieved/disappointed at His creation so that's why I thought God was not exactly all-knowing or all-intelligent
Well, you may have a point there.

6 So the Lord was sorry that He had made mankind on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart. (Genesis 6:6)
 

Lambano

Well-Known Member
Jul 13, 2021
6,229
8,925
113
Island of Misfit Toys
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
How is it glorious if only a FEW would enter the narrow gate of everlasting life? I'd rather God be not all-knowing and not all-intelligent than to be the one who would know that MANY would go to hell
The Supralapsarian branch of Reformed theology believes God before the foundation of the world decreed who He would save and who He would damn. He then decreed the Fall in order to have something to save the Elect from, and something to damn the non-elect for. Even John Calvin called this "the horrible decree".

The Infralapsarian branch (which I think is what is mainstream Reformed theology today) believes that God foresaw that humankind would fall, and then chose to save some.

John Wesley was Arminian in his theology and interpreted the predestination passages in the Bible in terms of God's foreknowledge. God created Space and Time, so all Places and all Times are visible to Him. He knows who will trust in Him and who will not. In my opinion, this view gives more glory to God, though I agree that if He saved everybody, He would maximize His glory. But I could be wrong. Maybe we really do need to have something to be saved from.

Do you believe God has foreknowledge of the future?
 
Last edited:

GISMYS_7

Well-Known Member
Jun 22, 2017
4,406
1,748
113
southern USA
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not all-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!
Ignorance is and will not be an excuse!!!!
 

-Phil

Active Member
Nov 22, 2022
405
56
28
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not all-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!
There isn’t infinite being and intelligence. Infinite being Is intelligence.
Infinite being is also knowing, as in knowingness, the only knowing there is, and being infinite, there is no thing to know. Thus, infinite being is not per se, ‘all-knowing’, but Is knowing.
Infinite being is also unconditional, as there is no ‘thing’ to potentially want.

But above all of course, infinite being never fails.
 

Adam

Well-Known Member
Nov 30, 2022
690
379
63
43
X
Faith
Christian
Country
Canada
ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not all-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!
Even evil serves God in the end.

To reference the Silmarillion (which has nothing to do with the Bible, I know), Morgoth (analogy for the Devil) was banished from the Valar (angels) and they each had their own part of the world to work with as they desired. The Valar created perfectly straight rivers and mountain ridges and perfectly symmetrical forests and other things. Mogoth saw these things and they were far superior to his own ugly creations, so he went and destroyed them, broke apart the mountains, dug ditches to divert the rivers, etc. When he waged his destruction and left, the Valar called to Eru (God) and cried to him that he destroyed all they had built, but Eru showed them the world as it began to heal, and they realized that now the mountains and the rivers and the forests were even more beautiful than before as they each had a distinctive character and uniqueness that they had previously lacked.

Or, in other words, evil exists as a means to an even greater ultimate good; and it is better for one to suffer the scars of evil and return healed than to be ignorant and unchanging. The elevation of Mankind's soul required Mankind to understand good and evil and this requires us to suffer and then heal. God understands good and evil, beasts do not. Man rests between God and beast.
 
Last edited:

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
3,807
1,855
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
ALL-knowing. Was he also not all-intelligent. I concluded that God was not all-intelligent because His creation failed in what he wanted and that he's not all-knowing, that's why he didn't know it would fail. Discuss!
He put the Tree OF Knowledge of GOOD and EVIL on the Garden ALONG WITH allowing Satan in there for a purpose. He knew what would happen, it was part of the plan. We cannot really know and appreciate what is good (all of God's attributes and blessings) unless we go without and experience evil. We could not know what love is unless we don't have and all of of a sudden it comes along. Mercy, forgiveness, kindness, joy, love, patience, all are experienced in a state of need. If we didn't need anything, if we didn't suffer, pain and darkness, ee would not really appreciate and know what he LIGHT IS. God had to arrange it this way, a world of good and evil. Remember, it wasn't the Tree of Knowledge of Evil only! It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
 
Last edited:

-Phil

Active Member
Nov 22, 2022
405
56
28
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
He put the Tree OF Knowledge if GOO and EVIL on the Garden ALONG WITH allowing Satan in there for a purpose. He knew what would happen, it was part of thr plan. We cannot really know and appreciate what is good (all of God's attributes and blessings) unless we go without and experience evil. We could not know what love is unless we don't have and all of of a sudden it comes along. Mercy, forgiveness, kindness, joy, love, patience, all are experienced in a state of need. If we didn't need anything, if we didn't suffer, pain and darkness, ee would not really appreciate and know what he LIGHT IS. God had to arrange it this way, a world of good and evil. Remember, it wasn't the Tree of Knowledge of Evil only! It was the Tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil.
Infinite cannot know finite.
 

Wrangler

Well-Known Member
Feb 14, 2021
12,994
4,798
113
55
Shining City on a Hill
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
His creation failed
I think the better argument is not with Adam and Eve but Israel, when Moses talked God out of destroying all Israel, He was so mad with their repeated disobedience.

In the alternative, this could be an object lesson that prayers work, that our supplication has the potential to influence how our Creator carried out His Will.
 

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
3,807
1,855
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Infinite cannot know finite.
Can you elaborate on that?
Omniscient means He knows all - otherwise He could not be sovereign. There would not be prophecy accurately fulfulled. There could not be a Book of Life. We could really not depend on Him. His promises? ... Well, He could not make them. The gift of Faith would be propoed up with ifs and maybes ... uncertainties.
He knows how many hairs are on your head and when a sparrow falls to the ground.
 

-Phil

Active Member
Nov 22, 2022
405
56
28
Midwest
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Can you elaborate on that?
Omniscient means He knows all - otherwise He could not be sovereign. There would not be prophecy accurately fulfulled. There could not be a Book of Life. We could really not depend on Him. His promises? ... Well, He could not make them. The gift of Faith would be propoed up with ifs and maybes ... uncertainties.
He knows how many hairs are on your head and when a sparrow falls to the ground.
Happy to & thanks for asking.

Infinite means boundless, limitless & immeasurable. So if there is finite, that which is bound, limited or measurable… then by definition there can not be infinite.

Analogously… Can there be a chair in an empty room?
Initially this seems paradoxical; either the room is empty, or there is a chair in the room.
However this is only the limitation of thought, which appears as only one ‘flavor’, that of duality; this, or that.

But inspection of direct experience without the application of thought can reveal more than thoughts about experience…

The emptiness or ‘space’ of an empty room is of course present before a chair is placed in the room, and the emptiness or space of an empty room remains present after the chair has been removed. The ‘tricky’ aspect is that the room is still the exact same emptiness or ‘space’ while the chair appears to be in the room.

For an infinite room, that is, a room which is boundless, limitless & immeasurable, there is nothing which prevents the room from being a chair.

Thus the infinite room can simultaneously be infinite, omniscient, and sovereign.
The infinite room which is being the chair could loosely be said to be the supreme & permanent authority, as it is, being the chair.
The infinite room could also be said to be all knowing, in that it is knowing that it is being, a “chair”.
 

Ronald David Bruno

Well-Known Member
Nov 7, 2020
3,807
1,855
113
Southern
Faith
Christian
Country
United States
Happy to & thanks for asking.

Infinite means boundless, limitless & immeasurable. So if there is finite, that which is bound, limited or measurable… then by definition there can not be infinite.

Analogously… Can there be a chair in an empty room?
Initially this seems paradoxical; either the room is empty, or there is a chair in the room.
However this is only the limitation of thought, which appears as only one ‘flavor’, that of duality; this, or that.

But inspection of direct experience without the application of thought can reveal more than thoughts about experience…

The emptiness or ‘space’ of an empty room is of course present before a chair is placed in the room, and the emptiness or space of an empty room remains present after the chair has been removed. The ‘tricky’ aspect is that the room is still the exact same emptiness or ‘space’ while the chair appears to be in the room.

For an infinite room, that is, a room which is boundless, limitless & immeasurable, there is nothing which prevents the room from being a chair.

Thus the infinite room can simultaneously be infinite, omniscient, and sovereign.
The infinite room which is being the chair could loosely be said to be the supreme & permanent authority, as it is, being the chair.
The infinite room could also be said to be all knowing, in that it is knowing that it is being, a “chair”.
Far out Phil. We used to use that term in the 70's when I smoked pot and did drugs. We used goof on abstract concepts too like yours. That was 50 years ago.
My question is, what are you on?
I don't know what yoir post has to do with God's plan that included both good and evil?
"The room is empty or there is a chair in it ..." Is this something you got from Maharish Mehesh Yogi? "Life is an illusion, both infinite and finite ... to be conscious of the all nothingness is to be one with Buddha". Lol
Earth to Phil! There are two realms of existence, the physical and spiritual. Christians live on both, knowing one pretty well and not much about the other.
We do know good and evil, that was my point!
"But inspection of direct experience without the application of thought can reveal more than thoughts about experience…"
Wow ... far out man, real deep. Sounds contradictive. Inspection requires thoughts!
At this point I must refer you to an expert on the subject, Inspector Gadget, he'll tell you all about it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Johann