Was Jesus a mere man?

[Rich R]

Those who don't believe Jesus is God usually hear something like, "Are you saying Jesus was a mere man?"

First of all, there really is no such thing as a "mere" man.

Ps 8:4-5,

4 what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him?

5 You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor.
​

The word angels is the Hebrew word for gods, elohiym. All men were made just a little lower than God. That ought to settle the question of whether or not Jesus is a mere man. No he is not. In fact, Jesus is head and shoulders above any other man that ever existed.

But who exactly is Jesus?

• In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.
• In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.
• In Leviticus he is the High Priest.
• In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.
• In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.
• In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.
• In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.
• In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.
• In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.
• In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.
• In Chronicles he is the King's son.
• In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.
• In Esther he is the savior of God's people.
• In Job he is the daysman.
• In Psalms he is the song.
• In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.
• In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.
• In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.
• In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.
• In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.
• In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.
• In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.
• In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.
• In Hosea he is the latter rain.
• In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.
• In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.
• In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.
• In Jonah he is our salvation.
• In Micah he is the Lord of kings.
• In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.
• In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.
• In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.
• In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.
• In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.
• In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.
• In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.
• In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.
• In Luke he is Jehovah's man.
• In John he is Jehovah's Son.
• In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.
• In Romans he is the believers' justification.
• In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.
• In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.
• In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.
• In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.
• In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.
• In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.
• In Timothy he is the faithful men.
• In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.
• In Philemon he is the love of a believer.
• In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.
• In James he is the royal law.
• In Peter he is the pastor.
• In John he is as we are.
• In Jude he is the beloved.
• In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

Does that describe a mere man? I don't think so.

 

[Pearl]

To answer your question - No.
He is all you said and more. Praise his glorious name.

 

[MatthewG]

Hello to you Rich,

He was the Word of God made flesh. He was defied when coming down from being the Word of God that was with God in the beginning. He became flesh, his soul (word of God) was in a body made of flesh named Jesus who came to pay for the sins of his people and the world.

For, There is one God and one Mediator who can reconcile God and humanity—the man Christ Jesus. - Jesus was born and indeed a man.

However he was the Word of God in the beginning. God through Jesus Christ by the Holy Spirit of God was the one whom healed all the people that were touched by the Word of God.

It is also interesting your notes of each book of what Jesus is a type for in the Old Testament.

Thank you for sharing.

Just some thoughts, doesn’t make me right,
In Christ,
Matthew Gallagher

 

[Pierac]

Those who don't believe Jesus is God usually hear something like, "Are you saying Jesus was a mere man?"

First of all, there really is no such thing as a "mere" man.

Ps 8:4-5,

4 what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him?

5 You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor.
​

The word angels is the Hebrew word for gods, elohiym. All men were made just a little lower than God. That ought to settle the question of whether or not Jesus is a mere man. No he is not. In fact, Jesus is head and shoulders above any other man that ever existed.

But who exactly is Jesus?

• In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.
• In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.
• In Leviticus he is the High Priest.
• In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.
• In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.
• In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.
• In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.
• In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.
• In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.
• In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.
• In Chronicles he is the King's son.
• In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.
• In Esther he is the savior of God's people.
• In Job he is the daysman.
• In Psalms he is the song.
• In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.
• In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.
• In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.
• In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.
• In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.
• In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.
• In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.
• In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.
• In Hosea he is the latter rain.
• In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.
• In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.
• In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.
• In Jonah he is our salvation.
• In Micah he is the Lord of kings.
• In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.
• In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.
• In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.
• In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.
• In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.
• In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.
• In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.
• In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.
• In Luke he is Jehovah's man.
• In John he is Jehovah's Son.
• In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.
• In Romans he is the believers' justification.
• In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.
• In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.
• In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.
• In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.
• In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.
• In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.
• In Timothy he is the faithful men.
• In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.
• In Philemon he is the love of a believer.
• In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.
• In James he is the royal law.
• In Peter he is the pastor.
• In John he is as we are.
• In Jude he is the beloved.
• In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

Does that describe a mere man? I don't think so.

Luk 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him! 36 And when the voice(GOD) had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.

Jesus is God's chosen one per Luke 9:35...

Jesus recieved his limited knowledge from God...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know. Again, Jesus is not omniscient.

Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.
Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion – From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is omniscient. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit.

Hope this helps you...
Paul

 

[Pierac]

​

The word angels is the Hebrew word for gods, elohiym. All men were made just a little lower than God. That ought to settle the question of whether or not Jesus is a mere man. No he is not. In fact, Jesus is head and shoulders above any other man that ever existed.

Elohim

Elohim has been a very confusing word for many people. The word elohim is used various ways in Scripture. It is not only used to describe the Almighty, but also individual pagan gods and even mighty human beings. Elohim may be translated as God, god, angels, judges, or even a human being who stands as God's representative or agent. For example, the sons of Heth address Abraham as "a mighty prince," the word for "mighty" being elohim (Genesis 23:6). Some translations have Abraham here being called "Prince of God." Take another instance. In Exodus 4, the Lord tells Moses that he "shall be as God" (elohim) to his brother Aaron. Moses will have God's words in his mouth, and will stand as God's representative before Aaron. Here is a case where an individual human is called elohim. Again in Exodus 7:1, the Lord says to Moses, "See, I make you God [elohim] to Pharaoh." No one dares to suggest that there is a plurality of persons within Moses because he is called elohim, that is, God's representative. The pagan god Dagon is also called elohim in the Hebrew Bible. The Philistines lamented that the God of Israel was harshly treating "Dagon our God [elohim]" (1 Sam. 5:7). Dagon was a single pagan deity. The same holds true for the single pagan god called Chemosh: “Do you not possess what Chemosh your god [elohim] gives you to possess?" (Jud. 11:24). The same for the single deity called Baal.

The Hebrew language has many examples of words which are plural but whose meaning is singular. In Genesis 23, Abraham's wife Sarah dies. The Hebrew text says, "the lives [plural] of Sarah were 127 years" (v. 1). Even the plural verb that accompanies the pronoun does not mean Sarah lived multiple lives. The Hebrews never taught reincarnation or plurality of personhood. Another example of this kind of anomaly in the Hebrew language is found in Genesis 43. After Joseph wept to see his brothers, we read that Joseph "washed his faces" (plural). This is another instance where in the Hebrew language the plural noun functions as a singular noun with a singular meaning, unless, of course, Joseph was a multi-faced human being! The same occurs in Genesis 16:8 where Hagar flees from "the faces" (plural) of her mistress Sarah. These are "anomalies" of the Hebrew language that are clearly understood by Hebrew scholars who rightly translate to a singular form in English.

The better explanation is that the Hebrews used a form of speech called "the plural of majesty." Put simply this means that someone whose position was warrant of dignity was spoken in this way as giving a sign of honor. The plural acted as a means of intensification:

Elohim must rather be explained as an intensive plural, denoting greatness and majesty.

Whenever the word elohim refers to the God of Israel the Septuagint uses the singular and not the plural. From Genesis 1:1 consistently right through, this holds true. The Hebrews who translated their own scriptures into Greek simply had no idea that their God could be more than one individual, or a multiple personal Being! This is true too when we come to the New Testament. The New Testament nowhere hints at a plurality in the meaning of elohim when it reproduces references to the One God as ho theos, the One God.

Hope this helps your confusion,
Paul

 

[Rich R]

Luk 9:35 Then a voice came out of the cloud, saying, "This is My Son, My Chosen One; listen to Him! 36 And when the voice(GOD) had spoken, Jesus was found alone. And they kept silent, and reported to no one in those days any of the things which they had seen.

Jesus is God's chosen one per Luke 9:35...

Jesus recieved his limited knowledge from God...

Rev 1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him

Who received a revelation? Jesus Christ. Who gave it to him? GOD! God gave Jesus a revelation to show his servants what must happen soon. Vines Expository Dictionary of Old and New Testament Words defines revelation as:

Revelation – The communication of the knowledge of God.

(Webster’s Dictionary) Revelation – God’s disclosure to humanity of Himself.

Jesus received a communication, a disclosure FROM GOD. God knew something that Jesus did not know. Again, Jesus is not omniscient.

Mark 13:32: "No one knows the day or hour, not even the angels in Heaven nor the Son, but ONLY the Father."

This is a very conclusive statement. Jesus admits that he does not know the day or hour, and that ONLY the Father knows. This alone is enough to show us that Jesus is not omniscient.

Luke 8:45: "Jesus then asked, ‘Who touched me?"

This episode is about a woman who needs healing who touches Jesus in a crowd. Jesus responds by saying, "Who touched me?" It is obvious that he does not know who touched him. We cannot say that he knew but was just asking for whatever reason. This would be to speculate on a grand scale. It would be adding to what the Bible says. Just read the Bible. He did not know. He is not all knowing.

John 12:49: "For I did not speak of my own accord, but the Father who sent me commanded me what to say and how to say it."

In this verse the Father is showing Jesus how to say something. Why does Jesus need to be shown how to do or say anything if he is already all knowing. Not to mention the fact that the Father is commanding the Son. This is not equality.

Luke 2:52: "And Jesus advanced in wisdom and age and favor before God and man."

He advanced in what? Wisdom. He was advancing in the knowledge of God. Someone who is all knowing does not need to advance in anything, especially wisdom.

Matthew 4:1: "Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the desert."

Why does Jesus need to be led? He is supposed to be equal with the Holy Spirit. He should know everything that the Spirit knows, although it is obvious that he does not. He needed to be led.

Matthew 26:39: "He advanced a little and fell prostrate in prayer, saying, ‘My Father if it is possible, let this cup pass from me; yet, not as I will, but as you will".

I will not go in depth into the fact that Jesus’will is not the same as the Father’s will, but do notice it.

Back to the original topic. Jesus knew that the cross awaited him and he wanted to see if there was any other way while still remaining in the will of God.
Jesus is asking the Father a question that he does not know the answer to. What does Jesus want to know? IF IT IS POSSIBLE? He does not know if it is. Someone who is asking another a question for which he does not have the answer to is not all knowing.

Conclusion – From the Scriptures above I do not see any way in which someone can conclude that Jesus is omniscient. Jesus knew many things, but he also did not know many things. This is not what being omniscient means. It means knowing EVERYTHING. Jesus is not omniscient and thus he is not equal to God. Who is Jesus then? Jesus is The Messiah, The Anointed one of God. This is what Messiah means, Anointed. The Messiah was never supposed to be God, he is supposed to be a man anointed by God’s Spirit.

Hope this helps you...
Paul

Yes, yes, and yes! It's so simple if we take Jesus to be the son of God, period, end of story. No need to add God the Son. All that does is take the greatest story ever told and make it into an incomprehensible mess.

Hmmm...God always obeyed Himself. And, wow, He even believed He's raise Himself from the dead. BORING. YAWN.

Oh, but for a man, tempted just like all of us, compassed about with the same infirmities, to do that is beyond any words I can come up with. And to think that same man did it so a loser like me could enjoy eternal life in paradise is also beyond any words I can think up.

The only way I can describe how I saw the scriptures after learning the truth about who Jesus is, is that they went from a grainy black and white to a most fantastic technicolor. I only wish all Christians could see it.

 

[Mantis]

Those who don't believe Jesus is God usually hear something like, "Are you saying Jesus was a mere man?"

First of all, there really is no such thing as a "mere" man.

Ps 8:4-5,

4 what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him?

5 You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor.
​

The word angels is the Hebrew word for gods, elohiym. All men were made just a little lower than God. That ought to settle the question of whether or not Jesus is a mere man. No he is not. In fact, Jesus is head and shoulders above any other man that ever existed.

But who exactly is Jesus?

• In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.
• In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.
• In Leviticus he is the High Priest.
• In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.
• In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.
• In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.
• In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.
• In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.
• In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.
• In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.
• In Chronicles he is the King's son.
• In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.
• In Esther he is the savior of God's people.
• In Job he is the daysman.
• In Psalms he is the song.
• In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.
• In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.
• In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.
• In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.
• In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.
• In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.
• In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.
• In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.
• In Hosea he is the latter rain.
• In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.
• In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.
• In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.
• In Jonah he is our salvation.
• In Micah he is the Lord of kings.
• In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.
• In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.
• In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.
• In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.
• In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.
• In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.
• In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.
• In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.
• In Luke he is Jehovah's man.
• In John he is Jehovah's Son.
• In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.
• In Romans he is the believers' justification.
• In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.
• In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.
• In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.
• In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.
• In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.
• In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.
• In Timothy he is the faithful men.
• In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.
• In Philemon he is the love of a believer.
• In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.
• In James he is the royal law.
• In Peter he is the pastor.
• In John he is as we are.
• In Jude he is the beloved.
• In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

Does that describe a mere man? I don't think so.

This is awesome and a great reminder to look for Jesus in the whole bible. great post!

 

[PinSeeker]

It's so simple if we take Jesus to be the son of God...

I agree, but what that means cannot be lessened one iota, it is what it is.

No need to add God the Son.

Agreed, because... it's all right there. Throughout God's Word.

All that does is take the greatest story ever told and make it into an incomprehensible mess.

Only to those with itching ears, as Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3, who accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Hey, let me ask you, Rich, are you in a personal relationship with Jesus? If you think so, then how do you think that is possible? You don't have to answer. I mean, you can if you want, certainly, but that's really meant as food for... well, at least thought.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

 

[Rich R]

IOnly to those with itching ears, as Paul says in 2 Timothy 4:3, who accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own passions, and turn away from listening to the truth and wander off into myths.

Paul was clear in saying that many false teachers were coming on the scene. He even said that everybody in Asian had turned against them. He said the time is coming when nobody will endure sound doctrine. He named several names. In general, it appears the early church was in shambles even before Paul died. There is nothing in the scriptures that indicates that trend got reversed. Unfortunately, we are left with a ruined church.

Assuming we did get back on the right track, who got us there? Athenasius? Constantine?

Personally, I don't think that, by and large, the church ever got back on the right track as evidenced by the fact that about 98% of Christians really don't understand the nature of God nor Jesus. I've been on both sides of the fence. I once believed the trinity, so I know how that is. Now that I've jumped that ship and got into the non-trinity ship the scriptures went from myths to logos, i.e. they actually made sense, they were no longer mythological. I no longer have to refer to sources outside the scriptures to explain who God and Jesus are. It's just so simple; God is the Father of Jesus and Jesus is the son of God. I don't understand why the simple fact that a son can in no wise be his own father escapes so many Christians. The trinity is mythical. It in no way conforms to the reality God gave us. The scriptures are logos, i.e. logical. God gave us a mind that can count to at least 3.

Hey, let me ask you, Rich, are you in a personal relationship with Jesus? If you think so, then how do you think that is possible? You don't have to answer. I mean, you can if you want, certainly, but that's really meant as food for... well, at least thought.

Thanks for asking. I don't mind anybody asking me for the reason for my hope (1 Peter 3:15). Check out my post "Was Jesus a Mere Man?" That should answer your question. But in case you're pressed for time or something, yes I have a very personal relationship with Jesus. We talk to each other every day, at least when I'm not wandering around in left field. But even then, all I have to do is 1 John 1:9 and we pick up the conversation right where it left off. Jesus is a great guy!

To be clear, I would never think that Trinitarians are not saved. God forbid! I just think they miss the true greatness of God's plan of redemption, the actual meaning of the logos (Word) in John 1:1. God had to work with people to bring about our redemption. He had to convince Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, et. al. to follow His plan, the logos. It must have been like herding a million cats across the desert with a million starving coyotes in hot pursuit. But His brilliance shown through and He got the job done.

Sad to say, they also miss the true heroism of the man Christ Jesus. If he were God, no big deal to obey Himself and believe He'd raise Himself from the dead. But for a man, who shares the same infirmities as all other men, who was tempted just like every other man, to deny himself and pick up the cross is truly a most magnificent story. He did not want to get crucified. What man would? The only difference is that the man Jesus Christ willingly gave himself up to suffer 36 hours of torture and then the crucifixion. And he did it because he loved. He gave himself so that we might enjoy eternity in paradise.

Grace and peace to you, Rich.

Thank you so much for that. And may the same be true for you. God knows this crazy world needs both grace and peace.

 

[PinSeeker]

Assuming we did get back on the right track, who got us there? Athenasius? Constantine?

Well, God Himself, in the Person of the Holy Spirit. He put us "on the right track," and He's with us every step of the way on that right track, even keeping us on that right track. He is the author and finisher of our faith, as the writer of Hebrews says (chapter 12).

...about 98% of Christians really don't understand the nature of God nor Jesus.

A large percentage of people who call themselves Christians aren't really Christians. I mean, we can't see the heart, but we can know other Christians by their fruit ~ if the Holy Spirit is bearing is fruit (Galatians 5:222-23) through their actions.

I once believed the trinity, so I know how that is.

If you don't believe Jesus is God made man, then you don't understand the nature of God or Jesus.

Now that I've jumped that ship and got into the non-trinity ship the scriptures went from myths to logos, i.e. they actually made sense, they were no longer mythological.

I no longer have to refer to sources outside the scriptures to explain who God and Jesus are.

Sure. No need. Helpful from time to time, maybe, but no real need. Everything God has told us is absolutely sufficient. Sola Scriptura. Even so, though, iron sharpens iron, and there have been and are a lot of really smart folks throughout history whom God has used ~ and is using ~ in great ways to encourage us and help us.

It's just so simple; God is the Father of Jesus and Jesus is the son of God. I don't understand why the simple fact that a son can in no wise be his own father escapes so many Christians.

That's kind of the problem. It is simple, I agree, but it's not simplistic, as you make it out to be.

The trinity is mythical.

Not at all. We worship one God, Who is triune.

It in no way conforms to the reality God gave us.

Well, yes it does. We can agree to disagree.

The scriptures are logos, i.e. logical.

Rich, Christ Jesus is the Logos, the Word. The Word of God made flesh.

...yes I have a very personal relationship with Jesus... Jesus is a great guy!

How can you do that with a dead guy who's not God? You can't. So, maybe you do have this very personal relationship with Jesus; I hope so, and I'll take your word for it. And maybe He'll open your eyes back up.

God had to work with people to bring about our redemption. He had to convince Abraham, Moses, Isaac, Jacob, et. al. to follow His plan, the logos.

Well, He worked faith in them, drawing them to Himself.

It must have been like herding a million cats across the desert with a million starving coyotes in hot pursuit. But His brilliance shown through and He got the job done.

LOL! Well, with God, all things are possible, right?

Sad to say, they also miss the true heroism of the man Christ Jesus. If he were God, no big deal to obey Himself and believe He'd raise Himself from the dead.

Well that depends on whose (or Whose) perspective we are speaking of.

But for a man, who shares the same infirmities as all other men, who was tempted just like every other man, is truly a most magnificent story.

But if He were just a man, He would not have been able to do this.

He did not want to get crucified.

In His position as man at that time, having set aside His deity for our sake, that's true. But He did go willingly to the cross; he set His face to go to Jerusalem. He knew what was going to happen, and He willingly gave Himself over to the Romans and to crucifixion and death.

...the man Jesus Christ willingly gave himself up to suffer 36 hours of torture and then the crucifixion. And he did it because he loved. He gave himself so that we might enjoy eternity in paradise.

If He were not also God, He could not have done this for her with any effectiveness. He would have been wholly unqualified, just as you and I are.

Grace and peace to you, Rich. May the Lord bless you and keep you. May He cause His face to shine upon you. May He lift up His countenance to you and give you peace. Even the Prince of Peace.

 

[Rich R]

.How can you do that with a dead guy who's not God? You can't. So, maybe you do have this very personal relationship with Jesus; I hope so, and I'll take your word for it. And maybe He'll open your eyes back up.

Sure I can speak with Jesus. Why not? He was dead, but God raised him from among the dead. He is alive and well, sitting on the right hand of God (Heb 10:12), and in me (Col 1:27). He has a new improved body though. It's no longer subject to death. He did some pretty neat things in his new body before his ascension. Just the fact that it was taken up into the clouds is pretty neat. We can look forward to the getting the same kind of body when he comes back (1 Cor 15:44, Phil 3:21). I'd be just fine with me if he comes back tomorrow, but he'll come when he comes.

As I think about it, tons of verses are coming to my mind that say Jesus is alive forevermore. I think the scriptures are pretty clear on that.

I know you were so kind as to write much more. You raised a lot of good points. I'll try to get to the rest later. Hmmm...I may have said that to you before. Forgive me, but time goes by and I have a lot going on. I shouldn't be here as much as I am, but I so enjoy the discussions with other Christians. I trust you understand.

God bless

 

[Enoch111]

In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.

You skipped "in Hebrews He is God the Creator" (Heb 1:8-10). Christ cannot be the heavenly High Priest unless He is God.

 

[Rich R]

You skipped "in Hebrews He is God the Creator" (Heb 1:8-10). Christ cannot be the heavenly High Priest unless He is God.

Think about that for a moment. What was the purpose of a priest? A priest acted as a mediator between God and man.

1Tim 2:5,

For [there is] one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;​

If Jesus were God, that would mean God is a mediator between God and man. That would mean God is not a mediator at all. Yikes! Who's going to stick up for us?

I trust you noticed Jesus was called a men explicitly in Timothy. There are around a half dozen other verses that do the same. In contrast, there are no verses that explicitly call him God and there are certainly no verses that call him a Pagan god-man. There are also a couple of verses that explicitly state that God is NOT a man (Hos 11:9, Num 23:19).

Also, not all gods are YHWH. The scriptures speak of many gods, but only one YHWH. Look up "god" in any concordance and you'll find the word god applied to others who are not YHWH. That might help to align Hebrews 1:8 with all other verses that would make it impossible for Jesus to be God; God was good, Jesus was not (Mark 10:18), God is greater than Jesus (John 14:28), God knew things Jesus didn't know (Mark 13:32), Jesus has the same God as you and I (John 20:17), Jesus was tempted (Matt 4:1) but God can NOT be tempted (James 1:13), Jesus had a different will than God (Luk 22:42).

Well, I could add many more, but that should be enough to at least raise an alarm bell. If Hebrews does say Jesus is God, we have many glaring contradictions in the scriptures! Somehow they all have to fit. I've found it to be infinitely easier to make the few unclear verses that perhaps could be taken to say Jesus is God with the many very clear verses that would preclude him from being God.

One thing is for sure, we can't ignore any verse. They all have to fit. Now I know a lot of folks resort to the God-man argument, that Jesus was fully God and fully man. It was supposedly the man part that didn't know things the God part did, etc. That is skating on really thin ice. Since we are dealing with the integrity of God's word, I find it unsatisfactory to base an argument on something that isn't stated nearly as clearly as the verses I quoted above. In other words, there is absolutely nowhere in the scriptures that mentions a God-man. We can find that term in Pagan literature, but not in the scriptures.

God bless

 

[Enoch111]

They all have to fit. Now I know a lot of folks resort to the God-man argument, that Jesus was fully God and fully man. It was supposedly the man part that didn't know things the God part did, etc. That is skating on really thin ice.

Are your serious? Skating on thin ice because Christians believe that Jesus is the God-Man? I believe you are the one who is staking on extremely thin ice by trying to deny the deity of Christ.

 

[Bob Estey]

Those who don't believe Jesus is God usually hear something like, "Are you saying Jesus was a mere man?"

First of all, there really is no such thing as a "mere" man.

Ps 8:4-5,

4 what is man that You are mindful of him, or the son of man that You care for him?

5 You made him a little lower than the angels; You crowned him with glory and honor.
​

The word angels is the Hebrew word for gods, elohiym. All men were made just a little lower than God. That ought to settle the question of whether or not Jesus is a mere man. No he is not. In fact, Jesus is head and shoulders above any other man that ever existed.

But who exactly is Jesus?

• In Genesis he is the promised seed of the woman.
• In Exodus he is the Passover lamb.
• In Leviticus he is the High Priest.
• In Numbers he is the star to rise out of Jacob.
• In Deuteronomy he is the two laws: Love God and love your neighbor.
• In Joshua he is the captain of the Lord of Hosts.
• In Judges he is the covenant angel named Wonderful.
• In Ruth he is the kinsman redeemer.
• In Samuel he is the root and offspring of David.
• In Kings he is the greater than the Temple.
• In Chronicles he is the King's son.
• In Ezra & Nehemiah he is the rebuilder.
• In Esther he is the savior of God's people.
• In Job he is the daysman.
• In Psalms he is the song.
• In Proverbs he is the wisdom of God.
• In Ecclesiastes he is the one among a thousand.
• In The Song of Solomon he is the bridegroom of the bride.
• In Isaiah he is Jacob's branch.
• In Jeremiah he is our righteousness.
• In Lamentations he is the unbelievers' judgement.
• In Ezekiel he is the true shepherd.
• In Daniel he is the stone that became the head of the corner.
• In Hosea he is the latter rain.
• In Joel he is God's dwelling in Zion.
• In Amos he is the raiser of David's tabernacle.
• In Obadiah he is the deliverer on Mount Zion.
• In Jonah he is our salvation.
• In Micah he is the Lord of kings.
• In Nahum he is the stronghold in the time of trouble.
• In Habakkuk he is our joy and confidence.
• In Zephaniah he is our mighty Lord.
• In Haggai he is the desire of the nations.
• In Zechariah he is our servant The Branch.
• In Malachi he is the son of Righteousness.
• In Matthew he is Jehovah's Messiah.
• In Mark he is Jehovah's servant.
• In Luke he is Jehovah's man.
• In John he is Jehovah's Son.
• In Acts he is the gift of holy spirit.
• In Romans he is the believers' justification.
• In Corinthians he is the believers' sanctification.
• In Galatians he is the believers' righteousness.
• In Ephesians he is the believers' heavenly standing.
• In Philippians he is the believers' self adequacy.
• In Colossians he is the believers' completeness.
• In Thessalonians he is the believers' soon glorification.
• In Timothy he is the faithful men.
• In Titus he is the fellow-laborer.
• In Philemon he is the love of a believer.
• In Hebrews he is the High Priest for sin.
• In James he is the royal law.
• In Peter he is the pastor.
• In John he is as we are.
• In Jude he is the beloved.
• In Revelation he is the King of kings and the Lord of lords.

Does that describe a mere man? I don't think so.

I think of Jesus as God in flesh. Matthew 1:23 calls him Emmanuel - God with us.

 

[Rich R]

Are your serious? Skating on thin ice because Christians believe that Jesus is the God-Man? I believe you are the one who is staking on extremely thin ice by trying to deny the deity of Christ.

Well, I didn't deny the divinity of Christ. It's the very same divinity we all share.

2 Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
​

I'm thinking having a divine nature does not make one God. Must be something else. It actually is. Ask your Pastor or Priest what it means.

 

[Rich R]

I think of Jesus as God in flesh. Matthew 1:23 calls him Emmanuel - God with us.

I understand that to be the Orthodox doctrine. I wasn't trying to say it was right or wrong. What I did say is that those who believe Jesus is the son of God and not God the son doesn't mean they think he was a mere man. Quite the opposite. For a man, tempted just like you and shares the same infirmities, to do what Jesus did for a bunch of losers (all of us) hardly qualifies as being a mere anything.

God obeyed Himself all the time and believed he'd raise Himself from the dead is not that big of a deal. Was there any chance He could have disobeyed Himself or decided He just couldn't believe He'd raise Himself from the dead? Not really. But for a man to do that is truly amazing. What love!

Joshua means "God Saved." Surely Joshua, the son of Num, is not God also. My name is Rich. I'm doing pretty good, but I wouldn't say I'm rolling in dough. Living near the Southern border, it's not uncommon to meet someone named Jesus. A name does not make the one named anything other than what they already are, apart from their name.

I wonder why Joseph and Mary didn't get the message to name the baby Emmanuel. They chose Jesus instead.

 

[Bob Estey]

I understand that to be the Orthodox doctrine. I wasn't trying to say it was right or wrong. What I did say is that those who believe Jesus is the son of God and not God the son doesn't mean they think he was a mere man. Quite the opposite. For a man, tempted just like you and shares the same infirmities, to do what Jesus did for a bunch of losers (all of us) hardly qualifies as being a mere anything.

God obeyed Himself all the time and believed he'd raise Himself from the dead is not that big of a deal. Was there any chance He could have disobeyed Himself or decided He just couldn't believe He'd raise Himself from the dead? Not really. But for a man to do that is truly amazing. What love!

Orthodox doctrine? What's an Orthodox?

 

[Rich R]

Orthodox doctrine? What's an Orthodox?

It means the "accepted" doctrine by churches. About 98% of Christians believe Jesus is God, which makes it the Orthodox, or accepted, doctrine. However, truth is determined by the scriptures, not by committee.

 

[michaelvpardo]

Well, I didn't deny the divinity of Christ. It's the very same divinity we all share.

2 Pet 1:4,

Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.
​

I'm thinking having a divine nature does not make one God. Must be something else. It actually is. Ask your Pastor or Priest what it means.

I've heard this teaching in many cults, but Jesus is fully God and the divine nature isn't common to all men. If it were, we wouldn't need to receive His Spirit and to be born again.
What you're believing and teaching is a new age blend of Eastern religions and Christianity. When people can't believe the truth, they try to make truth fit their belief. That's self delusion.