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Was Peter thr Rock that the Church was built upon?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by n2thelight, Nov 10, 2009.

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  1. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    They ALWAYS conflate infallibility with impeccability.
     
  2. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    One can argue is/is not the Rock on which Jesus builds His Church 'til the cows come home. There are things in the Bible that are irrefutable:
    Jesus builds the Church

    Peter's role throughout the NT is that of leader/spokesman for all the Apostles, you don't even need Matthew 16:18, or the whole book of Matthew for that matter. That is evident in some 70 verses and cannot be denied.

    Jesus, as King of Kings, appoints his prime minister and uses keys in the same manner as Isaiah 22. It is not a casual event but a royal one.

    Protestants are becoming more hard pressed to find a scholar that says Peter is not the Rock.

    Those are some of my closing thoughts.
     
    tom55 likes this.
  3. tom55

    tom55 Love your neighbor as yourself

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    You end your post with "To God Be the Glory" but you use a disgusting and deragotory word (BENEDICK) to describe a FELLOW CHRISTIAN? How un-Christian like.

    Hopefully the moderator of this thread will take note.

    BTW....In regard to your wine and wafer comment.....The belief and teaching of the Real Presence has been around for 2,000 years. Jesus taught it. The ones that didn't believe, according to scripture, walked away from Jesus.
     
  4. tom55

    tom55 Love your neighbor as yourself

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    DITTO.....Well said!!!
     
  5. Jun2u

    Jun2u Well-Known Member

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    No one is trying to refute Mt 16:18. The issue is, is Jesus the Rock or Peter? Is the Bible lying when it declares in Ps 18:31 that God alone is the Rock? Did Jesus ceased to be God while on earth? Why not practice what you preach.

    I must have missed it somehow but where in scriptures that Peter’s role was one of leadership and spokesman?” Is this the same Peter who denied Jesus three times, was told by Jesus to “get behind me Satan!” and asked Jesus to come to Him while on water and almost dreeowned because he lost faith?
    If any Apostle who has leadership and spokesman it would be James (see Acts 15:4-35).


    A prime minister is always subordinate. He can’t do anything unless he is told it’s alright. The prior action you see is on the throne. Isaiah 22 is indeed a royal event but note what Jesus said in Acts 15:16 how He will rebuilt the tabernacle of David (church) again. Is this how Peter a sinner himself will protect the Church of God? The setting in Acts 15:16 is at the second coming of Christ.

    False! The Greatest Scholar is of course God Himself which declares Peter is NOT the Rock but A Stone in any language. Peter is still the same person whether he is addressed as Peter or Cephas. A rose by any other name is still a rose.

    REMEMBER: “Let God be true and all men liars.


    To God Be The Glor
     
  6. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    No arguemnat it is a statement of Fact it is not Peter, Context i get in trouble for it all the time but here it is missused to decieve men.

    Mat 16:15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
    Mat 16:16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
    Mat 16:17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

    Now please read 16:17, it is what Jesus was showing Simon, you know" revelation" it is not who as he was talking to Peter not about Peter, that he is building His "ecclesia", (correct word) upon revelation,

    This bit

    1Co_2:10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    And its teh reason why churches are failing, they have no revelation its all mens doctrines and teachings.

    And i wrote all that without different colours or bold,

    Mat_11:25 At that time Jesus answered and said, I thank thee, O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because thou hast hid these things from the wise and prudent, and hast revealed them unto babes.
     
  7. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    You did miss it. It was a long post. I don't mind reposting it.

    THE PRIMACY OF PETER

    Matt. 10:2; Mark 1:36; 3:16; Luke 6:14-16; Acts 1:3; 2:37; 5:29 - these are some of many examples where Peter is mentioned first among the apostles.
    Matt. 14:28-29 - only Peter has the faith to walk on water. No other man in Scripture is said to have the faith to walk on water. This faith ultimately did not fail.
    Matt. 16:16, Mark 8:29; John 6:69 - Peter is first among the apostles to confess the divinity of Christ.
    Matt. 16:17 - Peter alone is told he has received divine knowledge by a special revelation from God the Father.
    Matt. 16:18 - Jesus builds the Church only on Peter, the rock, with the other apostles as the foundation and Jesus as the Head.
    Matt. 16:19 - only Peter receives the keys, which represent authority over the Church and facilitate dynastic succession to his authority.
    Matt. 17:24-25 - the tax collector approaches Peter for Jesus' tax. Peter is the spokesman for Jesus. He is the Vicar of Christ.
    Matt. 17:26-27 - Jesus pays the half-shekel tax with one shekel, for both Jesus and Peter. Peter is Christ's representative on earth.
    Matt. 18:21 - in the presence of the disciples, Peter asks Jesus about the rule of forgiveness. One of many examples where Peter takes a leadership role among the apostles in understanding Jesus' teachings.
    Matt. 19:27 - Peter speaks on behalf of the apostles by telling Jesus that they have left everything to follow Him.
    Mark 10:28 - here also, Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples by declaring that they have left everything to follow Him.
    Mark 11:21 - Peter speaks on behalf of the disciples in remembering Jesus' curse on the fig tree.
    Mark 14:37 - at Gethsemane, Jesus asks Peter, and no one else, why he was asleep. Peter is accountable to Jesus for his actions on behalf of the apostles because he has been appointed by Jesus as their leader.
    Mark 16:7 - Peter is specified by an angel as the leader of the apostles as the angel confirms the resurrection of Christ.
    Luke 5:3 – Jesus teaches from Peter’s boat which is metaphor for the Church. Jesus guides Peter and the Church into all truth.
    Luke 5:4,10 - Jesus instructs Peter to let down the nets for a catch, and the miraculous catch follows. Peter, the Pope, is the "fisher of men."
    Luke 7:40-50- Jesus addresses Peter regarding the rule of forgiveness and Peter answers on behalf of the disciples. Jesus also singles Peter out and judges his conduct vis-à-vis the conduct of the woman who anointed Him.
    Luke 8:45 - when Jesus asked who touched His garment, it is Peter who answers on behalf of the disciples.
    Luke 8:51; 9:28; 22:8; Acts 1:13; 3:1,3,11; 4:13,19; 8:14 - Peter is always mentioned before John, the disciple whom Jesus loved.
    Luke 9:28;33 - Peter is mentioned first as going to mountain of transfiguration and the only one to speak at the transfiguration.
    Luke 12:41 - Peter seeks clarification of a parable on behalf on the disciples. This is part of Peter's formation as the chief shepherd of the flock after Jesus ascended into heaven.
    Luke 22:31-32 - Jesus prays for Peter alone, that his faith may not fail, and charges him to strengthen the rest of the apostles.
    Luke 24:12, John 20:4-6 - John arrived at the tomb first but stopped and waited for Peter. Peter then arrived and entered the tomb first.
    Luke 24:34 - the two disciples distinguish Peter even though they both had seen the risen Jesus the previous hour. See Luke 24:33.
    John 6:68 - after the disciples leave, Peter is the first to speak and confess his belief in Christ after the Eucharistic discourse.
    John 13:6-9 - Peter speaks out to the Lord in front of the apostles concerning the washing of feet.
    John 13:36; 21:18 - Jesus predicts Peter's death. Peter was martyred at Rome in 67 A.D. Several hundred years of papal successors were also martyred.
    John 21:2-3,11 - Peter leads the fishing and his net does not break. The boat (the "barque of Peter") is a metaphor for the Church.
    John 21:7 - only Peter got out of the boat and ran to the shore to meet Jesus. Peter is the earthly shepherd leading us to God.
    John 21:15 - in front of the apostles, Jesus asks Peter if he loves Jesus "more than these," which refers to the other apostles. Peter is the head of the apostolic see.
    John 21:15-17 - Jesus charges Peter to "feed my lambs," "tend my sheep," "feed my sheep." Sheep means all people, even the apostles.
    Acts 1:13 - Peter is first when entering upper room after our Lord's ascension. The first Eucharist and Pentecost were given in this room.
    Acts 1:15 - Peter initiates the selection of a successor to Judas right after Jesus ascended into heaven, and no one questions him. Further, if the Church needed a successor to Judas, wouldn't it need one to Peter? Of course.
    Acts 2:14 - Peter is first to speak for the apostles after the Holy Spirit descended upon them at Pentecost. Peter is the first to preach the Gospel.
    Acts 2:38 - Peter gives first preaching in the early Church on repentance and baptism in the name of Jesus Christ.
    Acts 3:1,3,4 - Peter is mentioned first as going to the Temple to pray.
    Acts 3:6-7 - Peter works the first healing of the apostles.
    Acts 3:12-26, 4:8-12 - Peter teaches the early Church the healing through Jesus and that there is no salvation other than Christ.
    Acts 5:3 - Peter declares the first anathema of Ananias and Sapphira which is ratified by God, and brings about their death. Peter exercises his binding authority.
    Acts 5:15 - Peter's shadow has healing power. No other apostle is said to have this power.
    Acts 8:14 - Peter is mentioned first in conferring the sacrament of confirmation.
    Acts 8:20-23 - Peter casts judgment on Simon's quest for gaining authority through the laying on of hands. Peter exercises his binding and loosing authority.
    Acts 9:32-34 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and works the healing of Aeneas.
    Acts 9:38-40 - Peter is mentioned first among the apostles and raises Tabitha from the dead.
    Acts 10:5 - Cornelius is told by an angel to call upon Peter. Angels are messengers of God. Peter was granted this divine vision.
    Acts 10:34-48, 11:1-18 - Peter is first to teach about salvation for all (Jews and Gentiles).
    Acts 12:5 - this verse implies that the "whole Church" offered "earnest prayers" for Peter, their leader, during his imprisonment.
    Acts 12:6-11 - Peter is freed from jail by an angel. He is the first object of divine intervention in the early Church.
    Acts 15:7-12 - Peter resolves the first doctrinal issue on circumcision at the Church's first council at Jerusalem, and no one questions him. After Peter the Papa spoke, all were kept silent.
    Acts 15:12 - only after Peter (the Pope) speaks do Paul and Barnabas (bishops) speak in support of Peter's definitive teaching.
    Acts 15:13-14 - then James speaks to further acknowledge Peter's definitive teaching. "Simeon (Peter) has related how God first visited..."
    Rom. 15:20 - Paul says he doesn't want to build on "another man's foundation" referring to Peter, who built the Church in Rome.
    1 Cor. 9:5 – Peter is distinguished from the rest of the apostles and brethren of the Lord.
    1 Cor. 15:4-8 - Paul distinguishes Jesus' post-resurrection appearances to Peter from those of the other apostles. Christ appeared “to Cephas, then to the twelve.”
    Gal.1:18 - Paul spends fifteen days with Peter privately before beginning his ministry, even after Christ's Revelation to Paul.
    1 Peter 5:1 - Peter acts as the chief bishop by "exhorting" all the other bishops and elders of the Church.
    1 Peter 5:13 - Some Protestants argue against the Papacy by trying to prove Peter was never in Rome. First, this argument is irrelevant to whether Jesus instituted the Papacy. Secondly, this verse demonstrates that Peter was in fact in Rome. Peter writes from "Babylon" which was a code name for Rome during these days of persecution. See, for example, Rev. 14:8, 16:19, 17:5, 18:2,10,21, which show that "Babylon" meant Rome. Rome was the "great city" of the New Testament period. Because Rome during this age was considered the center of the world, the Lord wanted His Church to be established in Rome.
    2 Peter 1:14 - Peter writes about Jesus' prediction of Peter's death, embracing the eventual martyrdom that he would suffer.
    2 Peter 3:16 - Peter is making a judgment on the proper interpretation of Paul's letters. Peter is the chief shepherd of the flock.
    Matt. 23:11; Mark 9:35; 10:44 - yet Peter, as the first, humbled himself to be the last and servant of all servants.

    The scriptural evidence for Peter's primacy is overwhelming, that, until now, you haven't been able to find.

    That's 4 topics in one sentence, which means you are ranting. For the third time, Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding, not for his teaching. Peter almost drowned, but you miss the point. He still walked on water, but your focus is on the negative. Ultimately, Peter's faith did not fail.
    When James stood up, all fell silent??? This is re-writing the Bible. You are following an agenda and are not thinking for yourself.
    Acts 15:16 is Jesus building His church upon his return, it has NOTHING to do with Isaiah 22. The fact that God gives authority to human beings is contrary to the unbiblical sola scriptura mindset. Yes, Peter was a sinner, being totally free from sin is not a requirement for being an apostle. For the third time, Jesus rebuked Peter for his lack of understanding, not for his teaching. Paul rebuked Peter for his behavior, not for his teaching. Peter denied Christ 3 times, and 3 times Christ told Peter to "Feed My Sheep", the scripture those who rail against Peter always ignore.

    John 11:51-52 - some non-Catholics argue that sinners cannot have the power to teach infallibly. But in this verse, God allows Caiaphas to prophesy infallibly, even though he was evil and plotted Jesus' death. God allows sinners to teach infallibly, just as He allows sinners to become saints. As a loving Father, He exalts His children, and is bound by His own justice to give His children a mechanism to know truth from error.
    Why didn't Jesus change the name of any other apostle?
    Matt. 16:18 - Jesus said in Aramaic, you are "Kepha" and on this "Kepha" I will build my Church. In Aramaic, "kepha" means a massive stone, and "evna" means little pebble. Some non-Catholics argue that, because the Greek word for rock is "petra", that "Petros" actually means "a small rock", and therefore Jesus was attempting to diminish Peter right after blessing him by calling him a small rock. Not only is this nonsensical in the context of Jesus' blessing of Peter, Jesus was speaking Aramaic and used "Kepha," not "evna." Using Petros to translate Kepha was done simply to reflect the masculine noun of Peter.

    Moreover, if the translator wanted to identify Peter as the "small rock," he would have used "lithos" which means a little pebble in Greek. Also, Petros and petra were synonyms at the time the Gospel was written, so any attempt to distinguish the two words is inconsequential. Thus, Jesus called Peter the massive rock, not the little pebble, on which He would build the Church. (You don’t even need Matt. 16:18 to prove Peter is the rock because Jesus renamed Simon “rock” in Mark 3:16 and John 1:42!).

    Matt. 16:17 - to further demonstrate that Jesus was speaking Aramaic, Jesus says Simon "Bar-Jona." The use of "Bar-Jona" proves that Jesus was speaking Aramaic. In Aramaic, "Bar" means son, and "Jonah" means John or dove (Holy Spirit). See Matt. 27:46 and Mark 15:34 which give another example of Jesus speaking Aramaic as He utters in rabbinical fashion the first verse of Psalm 22 declaring that He is the Christ, the Messiah. This shows that Jesus was indeed speaking Aramaic, as the Jewish people did at that time.

    Matt. 16:18 - also, in quoting "on this rock," the Scriptures use the Greek construction "tautee tee" which means on "this" rock; on "this same" rock; or on "this very" rock. "Tautee tee" is a demonstrative construction in Greek, pointing to Peter, the subject of the sentence (and not his confession of faith as some non-Catholics argue) as the very rock on which Jesus builds His Church. The demonstrative (“tautee”) generally refers to its closest antecedent (“Petros”). Also, there is no place in Scripture where “faith” is equated with “rock.”

    Matt. 16:18-19 - in addition, to argue that Jesus first blesses Peter for having received divine revelation from the Father, then diminishes him by calling him a small pebble, and then builds him up again by giving him the keys to the kingdom of heaven is entirely illogical, and a gross manipulation of the text to avoid the truth of Peter's leadership in the Church. This is a three-fold blessing of Peter - you are blessed, you are the rock on which I will build my Church, and you will receive the keys to the kingdom of heaven (not you are blessed for receiving Revelation, but you are still an insignificant little pebble, and yet I am going to give you the keys to the kingdom).
     
  8. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Actually its not

    Luk 22:24 And there was also a strife among them, which of them should be accounted the greatest.
    Luk 22:25 And he said unto them, The kings of the Gentiles exercise lordship over them; and they that exercise authority upon them are called benefactors.
    Luk 22:26 But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
    Luk 22:27 For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.

    Jesus spoke specifically against it, but again who cares what Jesus says if iit doesnt fit the doctrines. You made Peter greater than all the others, Jesus didnt.
     
  9. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    Jesus taught servitude at the Washing of the Feet, to Peter, rather emphatically, and many other places, but you ignore that with this cheap attack on my post.
    Peter's primacy is among the Apostles, because that's what Jesus wanted. It does not supplant or over-ride Jesus' lordship. Not once did I say it did. You can't read. You have to ignore 70+ verses and continue supporting your unbiblical rebellion against all scriptural, earthly authority. Look at the mess that has caused. Yet you bellyache about division. What a joke.
     
  10. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    No it is not, he was no greater or lesser than any of teh others. God doesnt play favourites unlike us. Im sure many think he does, that makes Him no better than man....

    No belly aching I just simply state teh truth

    Never said anything about you raising above Jesus, so why do you think you did do that???, but you certainly placed him above all the other disciples, he does not have that status

    Probably becuase of this

    Eph_1:22 And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,

    Eph_4:15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

    Col_1:18 And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.
     
  11. Mungo

    Mungo Well-Known Member

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    Yes, and you are a prime one.

    Are you going to retract the lies you told?
     
  12. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    WHO said Peter was "greater" than the others?? Certainly not the Church.
    One of the title of the Bishop of Rome is "The Servant of the Servants of God."

    Peter's Role was greater than their roles - not the man himself.
    As YOU posted:

    Luke 22:26-27
    But ye shall not be so: but he that is greatest among you, let him be as the younger; and he that is chief, as he that doth serve.
    For whether is greater, he that sitteth at meat, or he that serveth? is not he that sitteth at meat? but I am among you as he that serveth.
     
  13. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Yet here we see the Pope, supposedly the carry on from Peter, standing on a balcony with all "HIS" follower oohing and ahhing, bowing and praising as if He was God Himself, a servant He is not.
     
  14. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Nobody bows and prays to the Pope.
    We simply accept his God-given Authority (Matt. 16:18-19).

    As for "supposedly" being a successor of Peter - there's nothing "supposed" about it.
    His IS Peter's Successor - whether YOU like it or not . . .
     
  15. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Has none, all given by your church and its people. Doesnt deserve the praise or admiration.

    No He isnt you have no evidence but a twisted scripture from teh bible, and again History speaks for itself, its there for teh world to see, and history wont go away.
     
  16. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    Only to those living in abject denial . . .

    Apparently, YOU don't know your Bible very well:
    1 Thess. 5:12
    We ask you, brothers, to RESPECT those who are laboring among you and who are OVER YOU IN THE LORD and who admonish you,

    1 Tim. 5:17
    Let the ELDERS THAT RULE well be counted worthy of DOUBLE HONOR, especially they who labor in the word and doctrine.

    Stop making comments in ignorance and study the Scriptures . . .

    You're absolutely right about history - it WON'T go away.
    And, history shows that there are 265 Successors of Peter - and not ONE of them is a "General" from your "aggressivechristianity.com" cult . . .
     
  17. tom55

    tom55 Love your neighbor as yourself

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    ROCK is a metaphor for firmness or being sturdy or a foundation. It is not a matter of is it one or the other.

    God is a rock

    Jesus is a rock

    Peter is a rock

    I am the rock of my family
     
  18. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Dont deny anything, for me to accept you lies I would have to Deny Jesus, and that I cannot do, Now if you had the truth you would not need to get so mad and highlight, captalise, make bigger to make your self heard, or read in this case, the fact that most of teh people on this forum can write without just simply shows you are demanding attention, but it does brighten us the dull black.

    A I said you have no evidence even you pope lineage has being broken, i think longest time was year and a half. and Peter himself was never a pope just a good honest disciple of Jesus that messed up like we all do, poor man but be rolling in his grave with all this fuss over him.

    And your popes picked by man not God.
     
  19. BreadOfLife

    BreadOfLife Well-Known Member

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    In other words - yo have absolutely NO way of responding to my last post.
    I was responding to YOUR nonsense about not showing respect for the Pope and I squashed that ignorance with Scripture.

    Respond to that - if you can . . .
     
  20. epostle1

    epostle1 Well-Known Member

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    It seems that whenever the pope is mentioned on most forums, the lies, ignorance, false histories and plain bigotry rears its ugly head. We are well aware of the >3% of bad popes, (who never taught anything) but most are not aware of the 100% of the early reformers moral deficiencies. I avoid posting it but I will if provoked. Contrary to the Hollywood image, most popes have been good, holy servants of the gospel.
     
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