Was the Thief on the Cross Baptized or Not?

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stunnedbygrace

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No, only one thread. Didn't realize there was no debate allowed there. But wow, the church needs to wake up...Christians need to be careful about what they are coming into agreement with! Glad to pray FOR those folks, but can't join in with those prayers
oh…you Only flew into ONE thread like an angry wrecking ball. Well it’s okay then. :rolleyes:
 

n2thelight

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In post number 99 you made the comment:
".....but how can you repent if you are not saved first..."

You would have one saved BEFORE one repents which that order cannot be found in the NT gospel. The Bible puts repentance BEFORE salvation/remission of sins. No one was saved in the NT while they continued to live impenitently in their sins.

I'm not sure how repentance ties in with OSAS. The Bible does not teach OSAS, it does not teach that salvation is UNconditional regardless to how a person lives, that is, one can become saved and remained saved UNconditinally apart from repentance. Repentance is a CONDITION on salvation.
Okay , gotcha , and I understand what you're saying ,never mind the osas as I know that's not scripture as well

I still say one must be saved before they can repent ,, does one say , I accept Christ and repent of my sins or , I repent of my sins and accept Christ

Think this would be a good OP , I'll start it
 

n2thelight

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Bottom line, does it matter ? Christ told him he would be in paradise . If it matters can the OP form it with a different question , as I think the question should be , is baptism necessary for salvation , if that's the case , I'm thinking that topic is here on this forum somewhere
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Okay , gotcha , and I understand what you're saying ,never mind the osas as I know that's not scripture as well

I still say one must be saved before they can repent ,, does one say , I accept Christ and repent of my sins or , I repent of my sins and accept Christ

Think this would be a good OP , I'll start it
"Accepting Christ" would require doing what Christ says (Lk 6:46) and Christ says repent or perish (Lk 13:3). This means one has not 'accepted Christ' unless, until one repents, that is, one is rejecting Christ as long as one remains impenitent.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Bottom line, does it matter ? Christ told him he would be in paradise . If it matters can the OP form it with a different question , as I think the question should be , is baptism necessary for salvation , if that's the case , I'm thinking that topic is here on this forum somewhere
I see that the questioned asked by the OP, that being, if the theif had been baptized or not really points out that the "thief argument" against the necessity of baptism is not/has never been a valid argument for it is based on unprovable asumptions and upon impossibilities.
 

DJT_47

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1)
the Bible does not state specifically if the thief had ever been baptized or not, we can only speculate if he had been or not. He may have been of those in Mark 1:5 who were baptized but he later turned to a life of crime then finds himself repenting of his sins before Christ upon his cross. You cite Lk 23:40 and from this text we find the thief knew there is a God and God is to be feared, he knew Christ was an innocent man, he knew that Christ dying on the cross would not be the end of Christ for he knew Christ would have a kingdom and saw his need to be in that kingdom. We see the thief knew as much, if not more, about Christ than some of Christ's own disciples. It may have been the thief was once a disciple himself to explain his knowledge he had of Christ.

2)
Hebrews 3:15-17
And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator
.
For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
The thief cannot be an example of NT gospel salvation for Christ must first have died before His NT would come into effect/be of force. The NT also requires one to be baptized into the death of Christ then one can walk in newness of life (Rom 6:3-5) and requires one to believe that God hath raised (past tense) Christ from the dead (Rom 10:9-10) all of which would be impossible for the thief for Christ had not yet died, much less raised from the dead, at the time Christ promised the thief he would be in paradise.

3)
Matt 9:6
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house.
When Christ was ON EARTH during His earthly ministry He had been given power to forgive the sins of those whom He thought was deserving as the thief. For anyone today to be saved in the same manner as the thief means one must invent a time machine to travel back in time about 2000 to when Christ was on earth, before the NT gospel was in force and be forgiven personally by Christ. Therefore no one today can be saved in the same like manner as the thief.

Considering the Bible does not specifically state the thief had not been baptized, that the thief lived before Acts 2:38, before the gospel came into force then the thief cannot be proof water baptism is not necessary in order to be saved. The thief cannot be accountable to Acts 2:38 having lived and died before it came into force, (see also Lk 24:47). Therefore no one can dogmatically say the thief for certain had never been baptized based upon a theological bias and nothing more.
And even if the thief was baptized, it would have been unto John's baptism. He couldn't have possibly been baptized into Christ because Christ was still alive. It would have been no different than the Ephesians who were properly baptized into Christ once they were made aware.
 

Gospel Believer

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What !!! Yes all have sinned and come short , but how can you repent if you are not saved first , also we are forgiven like what 70 Xs 70 ,,
Don't know where you get perversion out of that ,guess we done talking , do you

Those that are not Believers in Jesus—- those that have not trusted Him to Save them —- must Repent......they must “ change their mind” ( THAT type of ” repentance”) and become Believers

Once that is accomplished, God will put His Spirit in them and they will feel sorrow, guilt and remorse for sins that never bothered them previously—. That is “ another” type of Repentance that FOLLOWS Salvation and is a part of one’s Sanctification as God Transforms us into the Image Of His Son....it comes naturally ,as does practically Everything thst has anything to do with the Holy Spirit....

For the “ New Creation” , Sin will have the appeal of sticking one’s hand in a fire....Your desires will change and thus , your behavior will change —- for the better, of course....this process can be quick or it can be slow and it is a “Result” Of Salvation and not the “ Cause” Of it.....We don’t “clean ourselves up “ and then Turn to God—- We first Turn to God and then * HE* does the Cleaning...
 

Gospel Believer

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Okay , gotcha , and I understand what you're saying ,never mind the osas as I know that's not scripture as well

You do not “ know” that .......it is your opinion....I have Scripture that easily Refutes what you think that you “ know”
For instance....John 5:24....
.....and of course , there is more....
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Jn 5:24 makes gaining and maintaining eternal life CONDITIONAL upon the basis of an ongoing, sustained, present tense hearing and believing and not UNconditional with no basis whatsoever.
 

Ernest T. Bass

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Please get a dictionary and look up three words.......” already have” and “ never”...... thank you...

Jn 5:24
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

Those that "hath everlasting life" and "shall not come into condemnation" are those who CONDITIONALLY already hear and believe and CONDITIONALLY continues to hear and believe. There is no UNconditional promise of everlasting life to the backsliding apostate who departs from God in unbelief, (Heb 3:12) for God NEVER made the promise of everlasting life UNconditional.
 

MatthewG

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Please give a reason for your answer. Carefully read the account in Luke 23.

Luke 23:
32 There were also two others, criminals, led with Him to be put to death. 33 And when they had come to the place called Calvary, there they crucified Him, and the criminals, one on the right hand and the other on the left. 34 Then Jesus said, “Father, forgive them, for they do not know what they do.”

And they divided His garments and cast lots. 35 And the people stood looking on. But even the rulers with them sneered, saying, “He saved others; let Him save Himself if He is the Christ, the chosen of God.”


36 The soldiers also mocked Him, coming and offering Him sour wine, 37 and saying, “If You are the King of the Jews, save Yourself.”

38 And an inscription also was [i]written over Him in letters of Greek, Latin, and Hebrew:

THIS IS THE KING OF THE JEWS.


39 Then one of the criminals who were hanged blasphemed Him, saying, “If You are the Christ, save Yourself and us.”

40 But the other, answering, rebuked him, saying, “Do you not even fear God, seeing you are under the same condemnation? 41 And we indeed justly, for we receive the due reward of our deeds; but this Man has done nothing wrong.” 42 Then he said to Jesus, “Lord, remember me when You come into Your kingdom.”


43 And Jesus said to him, “Assuredly, I say to you, today you will be with Me in Paradise.”


Hello 1stcenturylady,

As someone whom is not very articulate or smart: something to consider here is simply this, a thief on the cross.

Someone whom was hung next to Jesus, both slowly dying. From the past 3 years of Jesus ministry did this thief though he was considered a criminal charged to be put to death, ever hear about the Lord? I suppose so, could he have came to Jesus and had a change of life in which he did not have to face the cross? Possibly, but it seems here on his death bed - though he had 3 years to meet up with Jesus and have the outcome of his life changed, is not hanging on the cross, seeking the forgiveness that Jesus, indeed grants to him by explaining that they will be together in Paradise, located in the realm of the dead where all souls went before the resurrection.

A thief on a cross, but accepted nontheless, praise God for his mercy, and praise be to the Son of God whom asked forgiveness upon all people at that time; whom had put the Messiah to death, that being the Jewish people - and the Romans who put him on the cross.

Are there many thieves on the cross - taking ahold of salvation at the last moments of life? It seems granted by Jesus, he is the only way to the Father.

I could be wrong in this assessment but it is probably something to consider; death bed repentance is granted - but from my assessment the reward though it was Paradise could be lesser than others because God will reward and grant people a resurrected heavenly body that will be based upon their life that they had lived for God, in my opinion, in faith. (Which now today people do not go to Paradise from my perspective they actually go on to the Heavenly Realm) People went to Paradise, and prison while hell was still around, and today I believe Jesus Christ overcame that place and it was done away with.

May the God of peace be with you.
 

Gospel Believer

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Hello 1stcenturylady,

As someone whom is not very articulate or smart: something to consider here is simply this, a thief on the cross.

Someone whom was hung next to Jesus, both slowly dying. From the past 3 years of Jesus ministry did this thief though he was considered a criminal charged to be put to death, ever hear about the Lord? I suppose so, could he have came to Jesus and had a change of life in which he did not have to face the cross? Possibly, but it seems here on his death bed - though he had 3 years to meet up with Jesus and have the outcome of his life changed, is not hanging on the cross, seeking the forgiveness that Jesus, indeed grants to him by explaining that they will be together in Paradise, located in the realm of the dead where all souls went before the resurrection.

A thief on a cross, but accepted nontheless, praise God for his mercy, and praise be to the Son of God whom asked forgiveness upon all people at that time; whom had put the Messiah to death, that being the Jewish people - and the Romans who put him on the cross.

Are there many thieves on the cross - taking ahold of salvation at the last moments of life? It seems granted by Jesus, he is the only way to the Father.

I could be wrong in this assessment but it is probably something to consider; death bed repentance is granted - but from my assessment the reward though it was Paradise could be lesser than others because God will reward and grant people a resurrected heavenly body that will be based upon their life that they had lived for God, in my opinion, in faith. (Which now today people do not go to Paradise from my perspective they actually go on to the Heavenly Realm) People went to Paradise, and prison while hell was still around, and today I believe Jesus Christ overcame that place and it was done away with.

May the God of peace be with you.


That “ death bed Repentance “ thing? Many a Fool has though that they would take the gamble to live as they damn well pleased and then at the last second, “ get Religion” .....Unfortunately for these deceived people, the initiative for Salvation belongs to God—- “ Nobody comes to God lest the Spirit draw him”

They can decide to “ turn over a new leaf” before they die or “ be sorry “ for their sins ( a type of Repentance that does not save) , but it will be a waste of time, unless they see that they are Lost and Hopeless Sinners That MUST have a Savior—- That Savior being Jesus Christ....
 
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MatthewG

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That “ death bed Repentance “ thing? Many a Fool has though that they would take the gamble to live as they damn well pleased and then at the last second, “ get Religion” .....Unfortunately for these deceived people, the initiative for Salvation belongs to God—- “ Nobody comes to God lest the Spirit draw him”

I don't know.
 

Johann

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I don't know.
Isa_42:3 A bruised reed He will not break, and a dimly burning wick He will not quench; He will bring forth justice in truth. [Mat_12:17-21]

Mat_12:20 A bruised reed He will not break, and a smoldering (dimly burning) wick He will not quench, till He brings justice and a just cause to victory.

Stay strong
Johann
 

Aunty Jane

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In all this, the question is going to be posed as to whether one needs to be baptized to be saved.
Yes, whether the thief was physically baptised is irrelevant. It isn’t the act of baptism that saves anyone.....that is just the public display of a personal commitment already made to God in one’s heart. If there was no physical means to undergo full immersion baptism, (which is what the Bible says is the only kind that displays a symbolic “death” to one’s former life course and to be buried under the water to be raised up to a new life of dedication to God first in a new life from that day forward).....so be it......it’s the dedication of heart that makes one a Christian. This is also why infant baptism is invalid.
I don't know much about the thieves, but I'll bet my bottom dollar that they both immersed themselves in a Mikvah at some point. So that was the forerunner of baptism in those days. The difference is, as the book of Hebrews teaches, Jesus Christ died once for all and sat at the right hand of the Father, thus we only need to be baptized once, but the Jews will do it again and again and again until they see Christ as the Day of Atonement reminds one yearly of sins at the very least (and the one thief DID finally recognize Christ in which fulfilled his Mikvah purification).
Actually, the ritual bathing performed by the Jews was not a form of baptism and really has no connection to either John’s baptism or Christian baptism.

The respective meanings of these immersions were completely different. The Anchor Bible Dictionary says: “A scholarly consensus holds that John [the Baptizer] did not take over or adapt any particular baptism” . . . from Judaism. The same can be said of the baptism practiced in the Christian congregation. It was the same kind of baptism that Jesus presented himself for......it was the beginning of his course as Messiah, and a commitment to God to live up to the meaning of his commitment for the rest of his earthly life...same with us, however long that happens to be.
Our baptism is also a beginning......an important dedication, to live a life like the one Christ showed us is to be mindful of all that we do in a world ruled by the devil. To be kind and compassionate to our neighbors...but more importantly, to love God with every fiber of our being.
Scriptural proof that the Spirit can come upon unbaptized persons is in Acts 10:44. But the result was verses 47 and 48 in which I doubt anyone refused to be baptized. So the moral of the story is if one is saved, unless they have a morbid fear of water or alone on a desert Island without anyone else, they ought to be baptized when opportunity arises. Otherwise, the question can rightfully be asked, "Why do you claim to follow Christ, but then refuse to do what is required to show your testimony (Romans 10:9)? Baptism is the perfect time to fulfill Romans 10:9. So there's the Scripture. Again, the Scripture does not teach baptism to be saved, but it teaches that those who believed were baptized. I find the argument "I don't need to be baptized to be saved" is often an excuse to NOT to get baptized and be lazy about it. Get off one's bottom and go do it!
Well stated. Baptism is the public declaration of one’s commitment to Christ, seen by witnesses so that one’s life course from then on will be under scrutiny not only from ourselves, but also from others who may be aware of any departure in our Christian course, and who could make us aware of what we may not consciously think is wrong.

Our Christian brothers and sisters should have our back, and with the best of intentions, can be used by God to pull us back into line if we are humble and willing to accept honest criticism....but we are all are subjected to sinful inclinations and we should never forget to remove the rafter in our own eye before we attempt to take the speck out of our brother’s eye.
 
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DJT_47

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Baptism is an irrelevant question as relates to the thief. Jesus was still alive so he was saved and forgiven during the old covenant. Baptism did not become a requirement until the NT.

And baptism is not a public declaration of anything. The bible doesn't say or infer that. Who was the Ethiopian eunuch making a public declaration to?? NO ONE. Just he and Philip were there in the middle of nowhere.
 

Aunty Jane

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Baptism is an irrelevant question as relates to the thief. Jesus was still alive so he was saved and forgiven during the old covenant. Baptism did not become a requirement until the NT.
How was the thief "saved and forgiven" during the old covenant? Israelites had to bring their sacrificial animals to the Temple where they were sacrificed on their behalf if they had committed sins. I have to wonder if the thief was a devout Jews who was a regular at the Temple...? Did he steal the animals he sacrificed for his sins? :ummm:

DJT_47 said:
And baptism is not a public declaration of anything. The bible doesn't say or infer that.
The Jews were coming to John in great numbers to be baptized....it was very public. Not to mention being viewed by God and the angels where "joy" is expressed in heaven "over one sinner who repents".

=DJT_47]Who was the Ethiopian eunuch making a public declaration to?? NO ONE. Just he and Philip were there in the middle of nowhere.
His dedication was to Jehovah through his promised Messiah.....as a Jewish proselyte the Ethiopian knew the scriptures, but failed to make application. Phillip showed him who Isaiah was talking about.......he saw the need to get baptized.

He had an audience all right. :Happy: