Well this is good news for the SBC

[Angelina]

Southern Baptists to open their ranks to missionaries who speak in tongues
Greg Horton and Yonat Shimron | May 14, 2015


http://www.religionnews.com/2015/05/14/southern-baptists-open-ranks-missionaries-speak-tongues/

 

[OzSpen]

Southern Baptists to open their ranks to missionaries who speak in tongues
Greg Horton and Yonat Shimron | May 14, 2015


http://www.religionnews.com/2015/05/14/southern-baptists-open-ranks-missionaries-speak-tongues/

Praise the Lord at last for the Southern Baptist Convention and its return to a biblical emphasis. If they had adopted a biblical position in the first place, based on the Book of Acts and 1 Corinthians 12-14, it would not have caused their kind of cessationist teaching, which I consider is contrary to biblical teaching.

Excess in any field (and I've seen my share in Pentecostalism) is not a reason to reject valid biblical teaching.

See my article, 'Is the spiritual gift of tongues "gibberish"?'

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Southern Baptists to open their ranks to missionaries who speak in tongues
Greg Horton and Yonat Shimron | May 14, 2015


http://www.religionnews.com/2015/05/14/southern-baptists-open-ranks-missionaries-speak-tongues/

Angelina,

Your start of this thread has not generated any continuing interest here at CyB.

Since I don't live in the USA, what has this new decision to accept tongues-speaking missionaries done to missionary giving in the SBs?

What's the climate like in SB churches towards this view?

Oz

 

[HammerStone]

Oz, my own church is SBC-affiliated though we have somewhat downplayed that due to some of the press the SBC gets for infighting, etc.

I would say that our church is open to healing and tongue speaking, so in one sense I'd rate us as Pentecostal or Charismatic-friendly. That said, my Pastor is most definitely not your typical SBC pastor, and I mean that in a good way. Across the larger denomination, I would say that support varies as it typically will in American Baptist spheres, as one of the largest SBC churches around (also in my state) is very friendly towards this even though the pastor himself doesn't practice. Other than that, I do know of one person apparently let go because he made the mistake of remarking that he practiced a private prayer tongue and that overshadowed his local missions work for the SBC Association. This was a couple of years ago, however.

I've definitely not heard any report of any drop offs. I think we are at a time here in the US where such relatively trivial distinctions will be less focused upon as a sore point. Right now, all of the focus is on the expected fight for continued religious liberty and then decline of members beginning to even affect many of the conservative denominations where some simply thought "it won't happen here." In other words, I think there are bigger fish to fry.

I must say that I think very highly of David Platt, who is now over IMB. While not doctrinally flimsy, I think he sees an issue like this as secondary and not worth going to war over. He very much has the heart for reaching people, as should any IMB'er.

 

[OzSpen]

Oz, my own church is SBC-affiliated though we have somewhat downplayed that due to some of the press the SBC gets for infighting, etc.

I would say that our church is open to healing and tongue speaking, so in one sense I'd rate us as Pentecostal or Charismatic-friendly. That said, my Pastor is most definitely not your typical SBC pastor, and I mean that in a good way. Across the larger denomination, I would say that support varies as it typically will in American Baptist spheres, as one of the largest SBC churches around (also in my state) is very friendly towards this even though the pastor himself doesn't practice. Other than that, I do know of one person apparently let go because he made the mistake of remarking that he practiced a private prayer tongue and that overshadowed his local missions work for the SBC Association. This was a couple of years ago, however.

I've definitely not heard any report of any drop offs. I think we are at a time here in the US where such relatively trivial distinctions will be less focused upon as a sore point. Right now, all of the focus is on the expected fight for continued religious liberty and then decline of members beginning to even affect many of the conservative denominations where some simply thought "it won't happen here." In other words, I think there are bigger fish to fry.

I must say that I think very highly of David Platt, who is now over IMB. While not doctrinally flimsy, I think he sees an issue like this as secondary and not worth going to war over. He very much has the heart for reaching people, as should any IMB'er.

Hammer,

You say your SBC church is Charismatic friendly, but are the supernatural gifts of the Spirit functioning in your church? Are people being prayed for who have illnesses? Is God choosing to heal any of them?

I cannot believe your largest Southern Baptist Seminary and Dr Albert Mohler Jr would be supportive of the charismatic gifts. Am I wrong? Which of your seminaries has professors who are open to the gifts of the Spirit being practised in your local church?

You say the 'fight' is on religious liberty and decline of members. I thought that there was still a Calvinistic vs Arminian divide in the SBC with Albert Mohler promoting the Calvinistic side and, say, Roger Olson, promoting the Arminian cause.

You Americans are great with your acronyms and expect us foreigners to know what you are talking about. I had to check with Dr Google to determine the meaning of IMB as International Mission Board.

However, the issue in this thread is that SBC has opened its ranks to tongue-speakers, but there is not much interest in that topic here. Could it be that there are not many SBC folks here or that tongue-speaking is a non-issue?

Oz

 

[HammerStone]

My church regularly lays hands on and prays over members. My wife was healed at such an event where the entire church prayed over her and there is no other medical explanation available for it. She is not alone, as we've had other testimonials as well. We also have several members who I would describe as full fledged Charismatics or Pentecostals and a pastor who preaches on the Holy Spirit as a very real and living being.

Again, the largest church is roughly two hours away and has far more sway with the average member of the SBC versus Dr. Mohler or anyone else. In that Church, they do no practice tongues, but they frequently involve ministries that do have/perform the gifts of the Spirit and those people are regularly involved. In addition, prayer over people is advocated. Poll the average SBC member, and they're not going to know who Dr. Mohler even is.

I mean this respectfully, but part of the problem is well all (fully including myself here) get caught up in the blogosphere discussions of guys like Dr. Mohler or even Dr. Moore (President of Ethics & Religiously Liberty Commission [ERLC]) who are noted Calvinists. For every Calvinist Baptist, I can think of an Arminian one or even what I'd call a Charismatic Baptist. In addition, there are Calvinists like Wayne Grudem who are much more accepting of gifts, and I'd say that his thoughts are the silent majority type thoughts of the denomination.

That said, SBC is very different. The ecclesiology is very local church-centric, meaning this stuff is never top-down. It's both good and bad.

 

[Barrd]

Oh, well....I must now change my membership.

 

[OzSpen]

My church regularly lays hands on and prays over members. My wife was healed at such an event where the entire church prayed over her and there is no other medical explanation available for it. She is not alone, as we've had other testimonials as well. We also have several members who I would describe as full fledged Charismatics or Pentecostals and a pastor who preaches on the Holy Spirit as a very real and living being.

Again, the largest church is roughly two hours away and has far more sway with the average member of the SBC versus Dr. Mohler or anyone else. In that Church, they do no practice tongues, but they frequently involve ministries that do have/perform the gifts of the Spirit and those people are regularly involved. In addition, prayer over people is advocated. Poll the average SBC member, and they're not going to know who Dr. Mohler even is.

I mean this respectfully, but part of the problem is well all (fully including myself here) get caught up in the blogosphere discussions of guys like Dr. Mohler or even Dr. Moore (President of Ethics & Religiously Liberty Commission [ERLC]) who are noted Calvinists. For every Calvinist Baptist, I can think of an Arminian one or even what I'd call a Charismatic Baptist. In addition, there are Calvinists like Wayne Grudem who are much more accepting of gifts, and I'd say that his thoughts are the silent majority type thoughts of the denomination.

That said, SBC is very different. The ecclesiology is very local church-centric, meaning this stuff is never top-down. It's both good and bad.

That's an excellent overview of what I thought might be happening. My wife is captivated by Dr Mohler's preaching. She watches lots of his sermons from YouTube and she recommends some here and there for me to listen to and I take up her invitation. He has an exceptional gift of preaching but is a TULIP Calvinist, which I'm not.

Wayne Grudem, as a Reformed Baptist, thanks to his association with John Wimber, is much more open to the gifts of the Spirit. I find Grudem's book, The Gift of Prophecy (Crossway 2000), is the best I've read on the topic, but it has received some stunning criticism from cessationists. However, I consider Grudem has written an excellent expose of this gift of the Spirit.

My wife is calling for lunch. You know what that means for an obedient husband?

Oz

 

[OzSpen]

Oh, well....I must now change my membership.

So do you think Southern Baptists will now lose missionary support now that they accept those who speak in tongues?

Oz

 

[Angelina]

Oh, well....I must now change my membership.

What are you changing it to? :huh:

 

[HammerStone]

That's an excellent overview of what I thought might be happening. My wife is captivated by Dr Mohler's preaching. She watches lots of his sermons from YouTube and she recommends some here and there for me to listen to and I take up her invitation. He has an exceptional gift of preaching but is a TULIP Calvinist, which I'm not.

I personally like Dr. Mohler's preaching outside of the strident Calvinism that seems to bubble up from time to time. One of the positives coming from guys like him is a renewal of focus on doctrine and on knowing your reason(s) for what you believe. I will say that's one thing about the vast majority of their camp, as most Calvinists will be ready to defend their positions and at least give some reasoning as to why. He is definitely a good preacher and I would add speaker as his podcasts and appearances often demonstrate.

Wayne Grudem, as a Reformed Baptist, thanks to his association with John Wimber, is much more open to the gifts of the Spirit. I find Grudem's book, The Gift of Prophecy (Crossway 2000), is the best I've read on the topic, but it has received some stunning criticism from cessationists. However, I consider Grudem has written an excellent expose of this gift of the Spirit.

And a guy like Wayne Grudem is probably close to where my own pastor stands. He's a guy not afraid to quote Piper or Mohler in a sermon, but then he'll talk a little more about the Holy Spirit in the same that sounds like Grudem or even some more Charismatic folks. I prefer this healthy sort of balance, that moves one to a place of discomfort in letting the Spirit work, but then I do worry about the Pentecostal excesses. Thanks to people like Angelina, yourself, and others, I've realized this is a sort of what I'd level Classical Pentecostal strain of belief which seems to be a little more discerning and prudent.

Here in the states, mostly what we see with Pentecostalism involves Word Faith, Prosperity Gospel, and Kundalini-style nonsense. I hope and pray that the Baptist never reach that level, but I would welcome an environment where healing from God is prayed for and happens or tongues are held somewhere in the middle realm between imposed requirement and grounds for excommunication. This is what the recent SBC decision does. It doesn't necessarily endorse it or place it into quasi-required status, but it no longer penalizes someone.

I think one of the Christian problems is that we try and place everyone into a mold. You must do x, y, and z or not do a,b, and c.

I mean this respectfully Barrd, but it's kind of the attitude that you're showing here in that any mention of anything outside of comfort is condemned. The above SBC decision is hardly the realm of abuse for widespread change into a Pentecostal denomination. I think we should be comfortable in that we can borrow the good from the Calvinists or the Pentecostals or whomever, ensuring that it does not depart from Scripture yet not fully embrace everything. Perhaps God will change my heart, but I read Pentecostals and I read 19th century American Presbyterian Calvinists and find instruction and sound Biblical principles in both, but that doesn't mean I endorse everything they believe or do.

 

[OzSpen]

I personally like Dr. Mohler's preaching outside of the strident Calvinism that seems to bubble up from time to time. One of the positives coming from guys like him is a renewal of focus on doctrine and on knowing your reason(s) for what you believe. I will say that's one thing about the vast majority of their camp, as most Calvinists will be ready to defend their positions and at least give some reasoning as to why. He is definitely a good preacher and I would add speaker as his podcasts and appearances often demonstrate.



And a guy like Wayne Grudem is probably close to where my own pastor stands. He's a guy not afraid to quote Piper or Mohler in a sermon, but then he'll talk a little more about the Holy Spirit in the same that sounds like Grudem or even some more Charismatic folks. I prefer this healthy sort of balance, that moves one to a place of discomfort in letting the Spirit work, but then I do worry about the Pentecostal excesses. Thanks to people like Angelina, yourself, and others, I've realized this is a sort of what I'd level Classical Pentecostal strain of belief which seems to be a little more discerning and prudent.

Here in the states, mostly what we see with Pentecostalism involves Word Faith, Prosperity Gospel, and Kundalini-style nonsense. I hope and pray that the Baptist never reach that level, but I would welcome an environment where healing from God is prayed for and happens or tongues are held somewhere in the middle realm between imposed requirement and grounds for excommunication. This is what the recent SBC decision does. It doesn't necessarily endorse it or place it into quasi-required status, but it no longer penalizes someone.

I think one of the Christian problems is that we try and place everyone into a mold. You must do x, y, and z or not do a,b, and c.

I mean this respectfully Barrd, but it's kind of the attitude that you're showing here in that any mention of anything outside of comfort is condemned. The above SBC decision is hardly the realm of abuse for widespread change into a Pentecostal denomination. I think we should be comfortable in that we can borrow the good from the Calvinists or the Pentecostals or whomever, ensuring that it does not depart from Scripture yet not fully embrace everything. Perhaps God will change my heart, but I read Pentecostals and I read 19th century American Presbyterian Calvinists and find instruction and sound Biblical principles in both, but that doesn't mean I endorse everything they believe or do.

Hammer,

I find that many overtly, prominent Reformed representatives can be quite doctrinaire in the pervasive nature and imposition of their views. That is what I hear and read with Dr Mohler, R C Sproul, John Piper, John MacArthur, Steve Lawson, etc. However, that can also be the case with Baptists (not so much in my area) and Pentecostals.

The strongest promoters of doctrine Down Under are the Calvinistic Reformed. Most of the other evangelicals are into trite stuff, IMO. I long for the day for a local Baptist church that is committed to sound biblical teaching like the evangelical Presbyterians or evangelical Anglicans in the Sydney Diocese of the Anglican Church. Most Anglicans in my state of Qld are thoroughly liberal.

Yes, Grudem is an unusual bod with his combination of Reformed and charismatic openness to the Holy Spirit. I enjoy most of his large publication, Systematic Theology (Zondervan 1994, now revised).

You say that in the US, most of 'Pentecostalism involves Word Faith, Prosperity Gospel, and Kundalini-style nonsense'. Is that what you see in the Assemblies of God? That wasn't my experience when in the USA (but I haven't been there since 1988). There seemed to be more temperance with the A/G, but that may have changed. Here the A/G is now called Australian Christian Churches and Pentecostal chaos is the order of the day with assemblies in my area. I wouldn't go near them, even though I used to be an A/G minister and taught in its Bible College for 5 years.

Extremes are evident here with the Pentecostal-charismatics promotion of existentialism in the name of Holy Spirit ministry while the Reformed/Presbyterian are so scared of the Holy Spirit's ministry that any whiff of such is closed down. They are cessationists to the core.

Oz