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What benefit does it produce to make Jesus God

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Peterlag, Sep 6, 2022.

  1. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    In an instant, it will seem, to those who are asleep in death. It’s Jesus’ second coming that Paul was looking for. That’s the reunion event for the living and the dead.

    It sounds to me like Paul wanted to continue his work and that he hoped Jesus would return before he died. He’s confident, however, that the dead will be resurrected to life. The dead haven’t gone ahead of the living. The dead and the changed will go up to meet the returning Christ together.

    Can you hear the echo of Justin Martyr?
     
  2. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    It has a terrible connotation in the public mind due to the occupation of illegally procuring bodies from the grave for medical training in past centuries, but I use it in a positive sense when I say - I’m a resurrection man.
     
  3. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    So...who or what is the "logos" in John 1:1?

    It is obvious that there are only two 'persons' mentioned there....one (God) was "with" the other (logos) and "the Logos became flesh" and resided among them. They "had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father" so his glory was not physical or seen in his person, but he was a glorious spirit being who resided in heaven with his Father before he came to earth and also being raised "in the spirit", after his ascension and return to his former position alongside his Father.

    Calling the "logos" "theos" doesn't make him Almighty God as we see from the Greek definition of the word "theos".

    So if the logos spoke for God "in the beginning", it means that he has been with his God and Father since his creation. He is the "firstborn of ALL creation", (Colossians 1:15) which means that nothing existed before him. He therefore was an "only begotten" son of God, long before his earthly mission....he always was, and is a unique creation of his Father.

    And if Jesus was appointed as a "mediator between God and men", when did his role begin? Since God spoke to men by means of his angels, at times I believe that the pre-human Jesus was right there, such as the appearance of the three angels that came to Abraham at Mamre. One was called "Yahweh" and spoke for Yahweh....that is the role of the "logos".
     
  4. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    The trinitarians, binitarians and most unitarians think it’s obvious too that two persons are mentioned there.

    The word in John 1:1 is Jehovah’s own dabar.

    That’s what translators like Tyndale saw and understood. That’s why he and others render John 1:1-5 as they do when they speak of “it” being with God and being God; of nothing being made without “it”.
     
  5. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    I’ll quote again the Geneva Bible. (I’ll quote from others which render John 1:1-5 in the same or similar way upon request.)

    “1. In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God.

    2. This same was in the beginning with God.

    3. All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made.

    4. In it was life, and that life was the light of men.

    5. And that light shineth in the wilderness, and the darkness comprehended it not.”

    I’ve bolded the “it” to make it stand out even more to the reader.

    God is no one other than Jehovah. You know that Jehovah is only one person, the Father @Aunty Jane.

    Do you see now why I see only one person in John 1:1?

    I don’t expect you to agree with the translation. All that I’m asking is if you understand now why I see only one person - Jehovah alone, by himself - in John 1:1.
     
  6. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    I’m about to retire for the evening. I’m ending my day reading Luke 14.

    “… you will be repaid at the resurrection of the righteous.”

    (Luke 14:14, NASB)

    I’m a resurrection man, @RLT63. I’m a resurrection man.
     
  7. Peterlag

    Peterlag Active Member

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    I would enjoy your input on the new post I just put up in the Unorthodox Doctrine Forum asking...

    What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."
     
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  8. Peterlag

    Peterlag Active Member

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    I would enjoy your input on the new post I just put up in the Unorthodox Doctrine Forum asking...

    What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."
     
  9. Peterlag

    Peterlag Active Member

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    I would enjoy your input on the new post I just put up in the Unorthodox Doctrine Forum asking...

    What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."
     
  10. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    I have no doubt that the Geneva Bible was popular with the readers but not with King James who found fault with its renderings against the divine right of Kings, and sought to bring forth his own translation to try and replace the Geneva Bible in the hearts of its readers. Many of the clergy too felt that its marginal notes were out of harmony with their teachings and did not approve of it.
    So.....
    "In the beginning was that Word, and that Word was with God, and that Word was God". . . .
    "All things were made by it, and without it was made nothing that was made."

    But I still do not see how God can be described as an "it". The holy spirit was said to be the means used in creation, and I can rightly see how the HS can be described as an "it" because it is not a person....but not the superlative Creator.....how is that not demeaning?

    The logos was with God ("ho theos") so he could not be "God".....and the "logos" was referred to as just "theos"....this is describing someone who is "God-like"..."divine", as it goes on to describe him in verse 14.....

    "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us; and we saw His glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth."

    If the "logos" "became flesh and resided among" them, how is the word "God"? The Word was the son, but the Word was not God.

    John was among the ones who saw the glorified Jesus at his transfiguration. He is identifying the son of God as the "logos".
    If Jesus said...."No one has ascended into heaven, except He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man."
    John 6:38..."For I have come down from heaven, not to do My own will, but the will of Him who sent Me."
    John 17:5...."And now You, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world existed."

    Why can't we believe that he came down from heaven, and existed with the Father before all creation, just as he said he did? [​IMG]

    Is there some impediment in scripture that precludes Jesus having a pre-human existence and returning to his former life and position after this mission was successfully completed?

    God has servants and even Jesus is described as "God's holy servant" (Acts 4:27).
    The angels are in God's service and apparently have rank and responsibilities. Michael is the Archangel who is the Commander and Chief of the angelic forces. He has been from their beginning, involved in carrying out the mighty deeds recorded in Israel's history.

    I have commented about the role of Michael and how he may well be this trusted "firstborn son" who was "sent" to redeem mankind. The designation of "firstborn" with regard to Jesus has to mean "firstborn of ALL creation" (which includes the angels) as Paul says, (Colossians 1:15) because he was not the first "son of God" on earth....Adam was. (Luke 3:38)

    I guess we see things very differently regarding the role played by God's son.

    Can I ask you why you believe Jesus needed to be born as a human child in order to redeem mankind?
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2022 at 12:20 AM
  11. Windmillcharge

    Windmillcharge Well-Known Member

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    John1:29 John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!

    in the OT the sacrifice for sin was an animal. They pointed forward to Jesus's coming and role.
     
  12. farouk

    farouk Well-Known Member

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    @RLT63 "With Christ, which is far better' (Philippians 1.23).
     
  13. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    The answer I was looking for was “yes”. I’m not sure that’s what I received.
     
  14. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    dabar (Hebrew) = logos (Greek).
     
  15. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    Let’s try this: God spoke his mind.

    “so shall my word be that goes forth out of my mouth: It shall not return to me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing I sent it to do.”

    (Isaiah 55:11, WEB)
     
  16. Matthias

    Matthias Well-Known Member

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    Even the demons know who the one God is.

    Knowing who he is is critically important, but knowing who he is isn’t enough. That seems to me to be the point you’re making. Excellent.
     
  17. Wrangler

    Wrangler Well-Known Member

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    Agreed. Even the demons know Jesus is not God.

    The demons identified Jesus as the son of the most high. They did not identify him AS the most high incarnate. To use trinitarian logic regarding worship, Jesus did not rebuke the demons for failing to identify has as god so that proves Jesus is NOT god.
     
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  18. Kermos

    Kermos Well-Known Member

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    First, you wrote "Read correctly" even with "Jesus existing in the form of God equivocates with Jesus being God always" in reference to Philippians 2:6.

    Paul wrote that Jesus is God with the words "He existed in the form of God" (Philippians 2:6).

    You ask:

    what "form" would an invisible spirit have.... before his earthly sojourn?

    ANSWER: Spiritual form.

    You ask:

    how can an immortal be mortal?

    ANSWER: By the Power of God!

    You wrote:

    There is not a single verse in the whole of scripture that tells us that Jesus had a dual personality, a half man/half god

    RESPONSE A: Your half man/half god is inaccurate. Jesus is truly Man, and Jesus is truly God (John 1:1-5, John 8:58, John 20:28).

    RESPONSE B: There is a verse that tells us that Jesus is truly God and Jesus is truly Man, and the verse is Philippians 2:6, but the greater passage is Philippians 2:6-8. YOU REPLIED TO A POST THAT INCLUDES THI VERSE.

    You lie about the Word of God such as when you, a mere mortal, place your limit on His sayings such as "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) being changed by your heart into "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I am not". Your heart's thoughts are foolish leading to everlasting punishment (Matthew 25:46) fot Jesus says "unless you believe that I am He, you will die in your sins" (John 8:24).

    The Truth (John 14:6) is that Jesus is God for the ever living Word of God proclaims this Truth "Truly, truly, I say to you, before Abraham was, I AM" (John 8:58) and the Word of God says "I will settle him in My house and in My kingdom forever, and his throne shall be established forever" (1 Chronicles 17:14), so according to the Word, Lord Jesus existed in eternity past and will exist in eternity future which means the Word is uncreated thus the Word proclaims that the Word is YHWH God for there is NO other that exists in eternity past and future (Isaiah 45:5).

    Jesus is God with us per the Apostle (Matthew 1:23), so Jesus is truly Almighty God, YHWH, with us (Revelation 1:8)!
     
  19. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    LOL....I’m not good at one word answers, but I’m sure you already know that....:hmhehm

    My approach to Bible study is to take everything in context as it fits in with the entirety of what scripture teaches. It’s one story from Genesis to Revelation, but some people get so stuck on their own chosen interpretation of the scriptures that they forget where it all has to fit into the big picture.

    The fundamental things get lost in the details....like who God is.....and who his son is. Get that wrong and nothing else can be right....:doldrums:
     
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  20. Aunty Jane

    Aunty Jane Well-Known Member

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    One who speaks God’s words.....a spokesman. How did God speak to his servants in the pre-Christian era.....he spoke by means of his spirit to his prophets, who conveyed his thoughts and commands to them. He also communicated by means of angels.....one mentioned by name, on two important occasions was Gabriel, who appeared to Daniel and also to Mary.

    When Christ came, God spoke by means of his son....and his holy spirit was operative on his apostles who carried on the work that Christ had begun....a preaching work that was to continue to the time of the end. (Matthew 24:14)
     
    Last edited: Sep 24, 2022 at 12:24 AM
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