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Featured What Do The Book of Daniel DECEIVERS Present?!?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by Bobby Jo, Jul 19, 2019.

  1. Bobby Jo

    Bobby Jo Well-Known Member

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    To All,
    I revised the Topic title from "What Does The DANIEL 9 SEVENTY WEEKS Actually Present?!? ..." to "What Do the Book of Daniel DECEIVERS Present?!?", because virtually everything posted by others in this Topic are prevarications. It's starts with people defying the 12:4&9 angel's DEMAND that the Daniel's Prophecies are END TIME, and proceeds into FALSE Scriptures (FALSE Renderings), FALSE Histories, and FALSE "fulfillments". :)

    And if people don't like an HONEST Title, let them open their own Topic!
    Bobby Jo
    7/26/19



    SPECIAL notice to: @CharismaticLady and @pompadour
    ... 'cause THEY'RE SPECIAL ;)

    To All,

    I like the saying, "This ain't my first rodeo", because we should expect disrupters to attack, divert, interfere, etc. So please don't be surprised when satan's minions show up. :)

    So the next aspect we should address is the CONTEXT in the Book of Daniel. In 12:4 & 9, the angel instructs Daniel:

    Dan. 12:4 But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book, until the time of the end. Many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”
    9 He said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are shut up and sealed until the time of the end.

    Per this passage, we MUST anticipate the fulfillment to apply to an era where people travel some 60 to 600 miles per hour, and where information is literally at our finger tips. But the commentator have a different agenda. They have contrived a FALSE Scripture and FALSE History so that they can be the EXPERTS who have an answer. Now their answer is a LIE, but it's their BEST LIE. So let's take a look:

    In the book, “Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation,” John Walvoord writes regarding the interpretation of the seventy “weeks:”

    The history of the exegesis of the 70 Weeks is the Dismal Swamp of O. T. criticism. The difficulties that beset any "rationalistic" treatment of the figures are great enough, but the critics on this side of the fence do not agree among themselves; but the trackless wilderness of assumptions and theories and efforts to obtain an exact chronology fitting into the the history of Salvation, after these 2,000 years of infinitely varied interpretations, would seem to preclude any use of the 70 Weeks for the determination of a definite prophetic chronology. ... "

    John Wolvoord, "Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation", Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217


    “This prophesy of the seventy sevens is one of the most difficult in the entire OT, and although the interpretations are almost legion, we shall confine ourselves to the discussion of three which may be regarded as of particular importance.”[1]

    Note: According to the dictionary[2] a legion consists of 3,000 to 6,000 foot soldiers, and 300 to 700 cavalry.


    [1] Guthrie, D., & J.A. Motyer, New Bible Commentary: Revised, Eerdmans Publishing Co., Grand Rapids, MI, 1970, p. 699
    [2] Webster’s New Twentieth Century Dictionary - 2nd ed, p. 1035



    “... Montgomery, for all of his scholarship and knowledge of the history of interpretation, ends up with no reasonable interpretation at all.”[1]

    “... as Young points out, the word ‘sevens’ is in the masculine plural instead of the usual feminine plural. No clear explanation is given except that Young feels ‘it was for the deliberate purpose of calling attention to the fact that the word “sevens” is employed in an unusual sense.’”[2]

    “...Young finally concludes after some discussion that Keil and Kliefoth are correct when they hold that the word ‘sevens’ does not necessarily mean year-weeks, but an intentionally indefinite designation of a period of time measured by the number seven, which chronological duration must be determined on other grounds.”[3]

    [1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 217
    [2] IBID, p. 217
    [3] IBID, p. 218



    “...the Book of Daniel, where a period of seventy weeks of years, i.e. 490 years, is given as separating the epoch of Nebuchadnezzar from that of the Messiah. As it happens, if to this figure of 390 years [Damascus Document] is added, firstly twenty (during which the ancestors of the Community ‘groped’ for their way until the entry on the scene of the Teacher of Righteousness), then another forty (the time span between the death of the Teacher and the dawn of the messianic epoch), the total stretch of years arrived at is 450. And if to this total is added the duration of the Teacher’s ministry of, say, forty years - a customary round figure - the final result is the classic seventy times seven years.”[1]

    [1] Geza Vermes, The Complete Dead Sea Scrolls In English, Penguin Putnam Inc., NY, 1997, p. 58


    “[Per Young] This phrase has reference to the issuance of the word, not from a Persian ruler but from God. Young goes on to point out that the expression the commandment, which he insists is better translated “a word” (Heb. Dābār; cf. 2Ch 30:5) is also found is Daniel 9:23 for a word from God.”[1]

    [1] John Walvoord, Daniel, The Key to Prophetic Revelation, Moody Press, Chicago, 1971, p. 224


    Consider the Contemporary English Version, (CEV), footnote for verse 25 which provides that any priest or king is called an anointed one (mâshiyach).

    9.25 ... the Chosen Leader: Or “a chosen leader.” In Hebrew the word “chosen” means “to pour oil (on someone’s head).” In Old Testament times it was the custom to pour oil on a person’s head when that person was chosen to be a priest or a king.[1]


    There are 39 such citations, for which the translators capitalize 2 without any authorization, and for example Leviticus provides what happens if a mâshiyach sins:

    Lev. 4:3 If the priest that is anointed H4899 do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.


    By now it should be obvious that what we've been told about this Book of Daniel, and particularly this 9th Chapter, is untrue. We MUST find a fulfillment approximate to the era of 1948 if we are to find ANY fulfillment.


    Bobby Jo
     
    Last edited: Jul 27, 2019
  2. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Active Member

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    Found it. Need to take a nap with an ice pack, but I'll print this and read it in bed (if I can stay awake) That way I can write notes and look things up with my Bible. Also "follow" this thread. :)
     
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  3. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Active Member

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    @Bobby Jo

    I take it this was an introduction, but I'm very confused. You wrote a lot of clips from different commentators but I don't know what their points were. They were all confusing, like out of context and partial or something. I'm also not sure where you were going referencing 1948. I would love to see a prophecy that calculates to 1948 and 1967, but the 70 weeks prophecy isn't one. It has a given beginning date and end date to Jesus, presumably to Palm Sunday and His crucifixion. Then you have 70 AD. Then you have an unknown span of time, which I believe is a fulfillment of Hosea 6:1-3, and at the end, vs. 27, is a span of 7 years ending with the Millennium. That's my 2 cents.

    Do you have anything related to 1948 and 1967? I heard of one once referencing Nehemiah or Ezra with over 4000 days/years a long time ago, but I didn't keep a record of it. :(

    Going back to my ice pack.
     
  4. dorian37grey

    dorian37grey Member

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    just my view :)
    62 ;-from the decree to go back ( for the Jews) until the suffering servant ( Jesus death)
    7;-from the end of "mene mene upharsin teckel" 2520 from captivity of the Jews until the formation of their homeland 1948 to the end of ( 49) day 6
    ---- the transfiguration's after 6 days ( but that's another whole story )
    1;--- the 7 years of antichrist
     
  5. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Active Member

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    Take more time and verses to show what you mean. I don't even know what book or chapter you are in. Sounds interesting. Also exact dates from what to what.
     
  6. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not surprised. Especially when 1948 is thrown into the pot. Just like the SDA threw 1844 into the pot. So just to help you (and hopefully Bobby Jo), here is what Daniel's prophecy of 70 weeks (7 x 70 = 490 years) is all about.

    1. It pertains primarily to Jerusalem, Judah, and Israel, and Messiah (Jesus of Nazareth) is specifically mentioned in this prophecy.

    2. However since it also features the Antichrist and the Abomination of Desolation, it will have a worldwide effect.

    3. It shows us God's eventual goal for this world under Christ and when the Kingdom of God is established on earth.
    A SIX-FOLD REVELATION OF THE KINGDOM OF GOD ON EARTH
    Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, [1] to finish the transgression, and [2] to make an end of sins, and [3] to make reconciliation for iniquity, and [4] to bring in everlasting righteousness, and [5] to seal up the vision and prophecy, and [6] to anoint the most Holy.

    4. It does not present the Church Age, therefore the gap between the 69th week and the 70th week is missing. Therefore we must turn to all relevant Scriptures to understand that the 70th week is in the future, and that the first half of that period (3 1/2 years) will be assigned to the reign of the Antichrist.

    5. Proper chronological computation (as done by Martin Anstey) confirms that from the decree of Cyrus "to restore and build Jerusalem" until the crucifixion of Christ when "Messiah shall be cut off, but not for himself", there were exactly 483 years. Therefore 7 years remain to be fulfilled (for a total of 490 years).
     
  7. dorian37grey

    dorian37grey Member

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    daniel 9 -26
    “And after the sixty-two weeks
    Messiah shall but not for Himself
    * 62 weeks--- or 434 years ; ending with the death of Jesus ( the cross) circa 29 ad ?
    -----------------------------------
    daniel 9-25
    There shall be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks;
    The street shall be built again, and the wall
    * 7 weeks --- 1948 to 1996 or 1997 ; depending of which calendar
    *** the after six days part was a comment on bishops ussher 4004 bc date (6 days later) 6000 or 1996
    my view is the transfiguration after 6 days story is an outline of the last days before the return

    ------------------------------------------------------
    daniel 9-27
    Then he shall confirman covenant with many for one week;
    But in the middle of the week
    He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering
    * 1 week --- 7 years ; the antichrist story
    my personal guess is that this mid point is around the rapture ;
    and the action of ending the sacrifice or the last 3 and 1/2 years
    are post rapture and include enoch and elijah's death as the 2 witnesses
    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
  8. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Genesis_15:16 is the reference that you are looking for. It starts off with, "In the fourth generation/age, your descendants will return to this place," but the understanding of the translators confuses the length of the time period of, "In the four generation" where " וְד֥וֹר ", wə·ḏō·wr, is wrongly understood/translated as having the meaning of "a descendant generation", where as H:1755 דּוֹר dor is better understood to have the meaning of a long period of time whereas H:8435 is used to indicate the descendant generation of the patriarchs. In Genesis 6:9 both are found.

    Genesis 6:9: - 9 These are the generations (H:8435) of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations (H:1755), and Noah walked with God.
    Another way of paraphrasing this verse is: -

    Genesis 6:9: - 9 These are the generations (H:8435) of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his age (H:1755), and Noah walked with God.​

    Where, "age" denotes a long period of time in which Noah live, when God was making His comparison of the nature of mankind before the flood. It is also used in the following verse when God made His covenant with Noah and all of the future descendant generation in all of the ages of mankind up and until the time of the final judgement. Below is my paraphrase of this verse: -​

    Genesis 9:12: - 12 And God said: "This is the sign of the covenant which I make between Me and you, and every living creature that is with you, for all of the ages (H:1755) until the future vanishing point in time:​

    My understanding is that Isaac was born in the year 2052 BC and that in 1948 AD some of Abraham's descendant returned to the land of Canaan, around 4,000 years after the birth of Isaac, in their own strength. Genesis_15:16 gives no indication of God being involved in the 1948 return of Abraham's descendant to the land. Other OT passages suggest like Ezekiel_34, that God will gather the righteous descendant of Abraham to Himself and that He will plant them into fertile fields where they will draw nourishment from God Himself as He teaches them about the Kingdom of God, where they have been scattered to the four corners of the earth.

    The significance of the 1948 establishment of the nation of Israel in the Land of Canaan was to provide a sign post for Christ's prophetic one verse prophecy of the Fig Tree in Matthew:24:32, which tells those of us who understand the prophecy approximately when the end of this present age will occur and the restoration/gathering of the Israelites unto the Lord will begin.

    It is my view that only 1948 is significant for piecing together the end time prophecies. 1967's significance is linked to Israel's attempt to rebuild the Temple on the temple mound in Jerusalem. Without having possession of the Temple Mound, Israel will not be able to attempt to rebuild the temple. Their attempt, will be the trigger for the last march of the Gentile nation towards Jerusalem for the final attempt to trample God's sanctuary in Jerusalem. This event will occur at the end of this age, and after which the Hosea 6:1-3 prophecy of the restoration Israel will occur as Paul also prophetically foretold in Romans_11:25-26.

    Shalom
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  9. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    Enoch111, from just a brief scanning of the free PDF file of The Romance of Bible Chronology, by Martin Anstey, I found a number of mistakes in his chronology of the OT, that would cause me concerns if I was to rely on his thesis concerning the chronology of the Old Testament.

    The first error was as to the year that Arphaxad was born, two years after the end of the flood, but where Anstey used the start of the flood for this calculation.
    The second error was in the year in which Abraham was born. Anstey pushed Abraham's birth forward by 60 years by claiming that Terah was 130 years old when Abraham was born and not 70 years old as is stated in the Genesis Account through not understanding what Stephen had said in his defence before being stoned to death in Acts.
    The third error, the Bible provides no information as to when Joseph was born, nor are we told the year in which he died, only his age when he died.
    The fourth error which is also linked to the second error above is the claimed year in which Jacob went down to Egypt.
    The fifth error is that Anstey claims that the 430 years that Israel spent in Egypt is wrong and that from the time that Jacob went down to Egypt until the time that Moses lead Israel out of Egypt was only 215 years.
    The sixth error is the length of time that the Book of Judges covers. The time period can be no more that, around 230 years.
    The seventh error is the timing of the beginning of the reigns of Saul, David and Solomon. My study of the chronology of the OT would suggest that Anstey has an error of around 115 years in these dates.
    An error that Enoch111 has point out is that the 490 year for this prophecy must be corrected by the claim that there are only 360 day in a prophetic year in the Old Testament, whereas, the length of a year is adjusted by the addition of a 13th month where needed to account for the solar year. Anstey was only copying the errors of Ussher's OT chronology.

    If we are to hold up peoples work as being a work on which we can rely for dates for the OT, then those works should be able to hold up to anyone's validation of their work. Anstey's work does not hold up as a reliable work on which to frame our understanding on.

    Shalom
     
  10. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Active Member

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    And the wall - don't forget the wall. Mine is basically the same except I added the missing gap. Have you considered that?
     
  11. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Active Member

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    What do you see as the beginning date for the Hosea 6:1-3 prophecy?
     
  12. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    For the first two days of the Lord, the birth of Jesus, is the starting point of these two days.

    The end of the first two days will occur in around 25 years time in our near future after which all of the righteous of Israel will be redeemed and Gathered to Himself/God, and they will live in His sight during the third day of the Lord.

    Shalom
     
  13. Earburner

    Earburner Well-Known Member

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    "There can always be more than one lie, but there can never be more than one truth"- Earburner.

    Please be sure to read and digest "by His Holy Spirit" KJV- Isaiah 55:8-9 and John 16:13, for if you DON'T, then you will never understand how John 5:39 applies to the 70 weeks.
    [39] Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.
    .
    Unfortunately, for all of the vain labor and wasted time in mathematics, the answer is clearly shown of how and when the 70 week WAS fulfilled.
    .
    It's really only one math function, of adding 69+1=70.
    Are you ready for this?
    Here it is: add verse 25 to 27, specifically-
    [25]...unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks [69]:...
    [27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one [1] week:...
    Did your answer add up to 70?
    Of course it did!
    .
    Ok, we are not done yet!!

    Now, here is your clue to finally understanding the 70 Week prophecy, and it is solely relative to Jesus' first appearance:
    .
    In Daniel 9[27] And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
    .
    Challenge:
    There are only two (2) people of which the word "he" is being spoken of, in reference to verse 26. You must determine which is which!
    [26] And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
    Question:
    Who is that word "he" referencing?
    1. Jesus?
    2. The prince?
    .

    If you have selected the correct answer, your "religious" understanding will be turned upside down, because His truth is stranger than all their religious FICTION!
    .
    Can you handle it, or will you walk away?
    But, before you do, please read John 5:39 again!!

     
  14. pompadour

    pompadour Active Member Encounter Team

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    There a lot of dirty birds in the olive tree.

    I think 1948 is the beginning of the end time generation.

    Jesus said ( Math 24 ) that the trib. will be so bad that there will no flesh saved alive but for the elects sake those days Have been shortened. In Rev. the devil is caste down to Earth having great wrath knowing that he has but a short season = ( the season of the locust ) = 5 months, May - Sept.
    Sept. has the feast of trumpets. Also known as the feast that no one knows the day or hour. Jesus said something very similar about his return.
     
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  15. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Active Member

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    That is very interesting, and I like the part of bringing in the 4004 BC date, and I've thought of 1996 before, but dismissed it, as nothing of significance happened that year - give or take even 6 years. But I don't know how this relates to the 70 weeks. What beginning date lead to 1948? The defeat of Babylon by Persia was 539 BC. I must have missed something. You didn't mention that from your first post. I'm still confused, but interested.
     
  16. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Active Member

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    I put the beginning of the first day to be 70 AD when God tore Israel. They were scattered around the world for 2000 years, and the Millennium is the 3rd day, I see as being another 40 years in the future.
     
    Last edited: Jul 19, 2019
  17. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    My starting point is Daniel_9:24 where Israel was give 490 years to stop their idolatrous worship in the sight of God, and to repent of that idolatrous worship. Also Exodus 20:4-6 also supports my POV which began with the birth of Isaac and the visitation of the fathers iniquities on their children and their children's children began when Christ was born, and will continue for a further two days of the Lord. The length of a day of the lord/age can be counted on the digits of our two hands with good dexterity, and the reality is that it is a little longer than 1,000 years in duration.

    Two days of the Lord/ages is the timespan that will pass from the creation of Adam until the birth of Isaac. After two days of the Lord/ages will pass from the birth of Isaac until the birth of Christ. A further two days of the Lord/ages will end in around 25 years time if my POV is spot on.

    Shalom
     
  18. CharismaticLady

    CharismaticLady Active Member

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    We both have educated guesses, and we both could be wrong. I just know He's not late. LOL And I don't see anyone on the horizon that could be the Antichrist.
     
  19. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Well-Known Member

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    I don't either, as the time of the appearance of the Antichrist is still over a 1,000 years into our future, before he will appear.

    Shalom
     
  20. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    I'm not sure which wall you are talking about and what is its significance? In order to restore and build Jerusalem, the wall had to be restored. But there is nothing critical about this wall. The Gap is from the crucifixion of Christ to the revelation of the Antichrist in the future.
     
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