What do you believe about penance ( actions to apologize for our sins )I know catholics believe in it.even though Commonly issued out as 3 holy Mary's.and if you believe in penanceAnd how far is to far??Is physical penance Okay??? Just wondering what my Christian brothers and sisters who do not practice catholicism believe.
what do we believe about penance??
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(Letsgofishing;25043)
What do you believe about penance ( actions to apologize for our sins )I know catholics believe in it.even though Commonly issued out as 3 holy Mary's.and if you believe in penanceAnd how far is to far??Is physical penance Okay??? Just wondering what my Christian brothers and sisters who do not practice catholicism believe.
Penace is difinately NOT in the bible. And actions to apologizefor our sins (with penace) in difinately so wrong.Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.The whole point here is to NEVER add works unto salvation. As I said penace is not in the bible. It is men's invention and doctrine.Jag
What do you believe about penance ( actions to apologize for our sins )I know catholics believe in it.even though Commonly issued out as 3 holy Mary's.and if you believe in penanceAnd how far is to far??Is physical penance Okay??? Just wondering what my Christian brothers and sisters who do not practice catholicism believe.
Penace is difinately NOT in the bible. And actions to apologizefor our sins (with penace) in difinately so wrong.Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: Not of works, lest any man should boast.The whole point here is to NEVER add works unto salvation. As I said penace is not in the bible. It is men's invention and doctrine.Jag
Penance may be in the bible.Ever looked up sackcloth, what the jewish people wore in mourning. Its definition is "Garments made of this cloth, worn as a symbol of mourning or penitence."so it is in the bible. I'm not trying to prove your opinon wrong though.
completley agreebut can it be used as repentance as we catholics use it.and repentance is definetley still needed today.
My only problem with this goes back to what you and I have discussed before and that is Confession putting a man in between a sinner and his God. No man can forgive sin or decide the punishment for it. It is harmful for the sinner unless he repents to God in Christs name himself with a repentant heart no amount of confession or pentance will cleanse his soul.Now if this repentance is given God willingly by the sinner and the priest adds Pentance I dont see a problem but it does nothing in Gods eyes however the sinner may feel better.
We are saved by grace, and not by works. Penance is a work of the flesh- a sort of self punishment, and we all know that Christ already suffered for our sins, so engaging in penance takes away from the cross.
In confession The priest is not forgiving anybody. the priest does not have the power to forgive anybody.It is believed that The priest is used as gods instrument for GOD to forgive the person.The priest is just carrying out Gods will. Anyway that is my belief. and the churches
Let's see what the catechism says about penance:"The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:" Pg. 269, #1032 "Absolution takes away sin, but it does not remedy all the disorders sin has caused. Raised up from sin, the sinner must still recover his full spiritual health by doing something more to make amends for the sin: he must 'make satisfaction for' or 'expiate' his sins. This satisfaction is also called 'penance.'" Pg. 366, #1459 "The penance the confessor imposes must take into account the penitent's personal situation and must seek his spiritual good. It must correspond as far as possible with the gravity and nature of the sins committed." Pg 367, #1460 "(Penance) can consist of prayer, an offering, works of mercy, service of neighbor, voluntary self-denial, sacrifices, and above all the patient acceptance of the cross we must bear." Pg 367, #1460 Sounds like it takes away the faith that Jesus cleanses us from all sins.1 John 1: 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.Not a few, not some, not most of them, not only mortal sins. not only (venial?) sins, but ALL unrighteousness. Looking to youself to expiate the sins, you will never be able to have the assurance that you can rest in Him, because you will never know if you did enough to stand before Him, thus the temptation to draw back when He appears because your hope didn't rest solely on Him, but is divided on you doing penance. But your hope should solely rest on Him.1 John 3: 3And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
I must agree with Pariah here it sounds like it does just as I was concerned it does put man in between God and the sinner wether it be himself or a priest. As far as Im concerned the priest has no authority from God to be his instrument he has made a personal choice and then is apponited a postion by another man. He is nothing more than a sinner himself. As we all are None is without sin.
Let's see what the catechism says about confessing to a priest:"It is called the sacrament of confession, since the disclosure or confession of sins to a priest is an essential element of this sacrament. Pg. 357, #1424 (See also Pg. 374, #1493). "The Fathers of the Church present this sacrament as the second plank [of salvation]..." Pg. 363 #1446 "Confession to a priest is an essential part of the sacrament of Penance:" Pg. 365, #1456 According to the Church's command, 'after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year.'" Pg. 365, #1457 One who desires to obtain reconciliation with God and with the Church, must confess to a priest all the unconfessed grave sins he remembers after having carefully examined his conscience." Pg. 374, #1493"Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ." Pg. 374, #1495 (See also Pg. 364 #1448) So, Letsgofishing... if you got in a car accident, and you believed you were going to die, you keep asking for one of the medical staff to send for a priest to come to do your confession... how fearful would you be if he did not arrive in time?Now if you ask me, seems like that priest and that RCC is being a thief by taking away the peace and hope you should be having in Christ Jesus by relating to Him directly as Your High Priest. When God wants a personal relationship with us and Jesus died on the cross for our sins to prove it, for no greater love than this..John 15: 12This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.Sounds like heeding His invitations and going to Him for salvation and resting in Him that you are saved afterwards as He leads you to love others as He loved us in living as His seems like the simplicity of the Gosple to me and thus the Good News to man.That catechism is by no means... simple. It is not Good News at all.Romans 11: 5Even so then at this present time also there is a remnant according to the election of grace. 6And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. Ephesians 2: 8For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.1 John 3: 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight. 23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.Hebrews 4: 9There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God. 10For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his. 11Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief. 12For the word of God is quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and is a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. 13Neither is there any creature that is not manifest in his sight: but all things are naked and opened unto the eyes of him with whom we have to do. 14Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession. 15For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin. 16Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.So how about heeding His commandments and have a personal relationship with God through Jesus Christ the Lord?2 Timothy 2: 19Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity. 20But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of earth; and some to honour, and some to dishonour. 21If a man therefore purge himself from these, he shall be a vessel unto honour, sanctified, and meet for the master's use, and prepared unto every good work. 22Flee also youthful lusts: but follow righteousness, faith, charity, peace, with them that call on the Lord out of a pure heart. 23But foolish and unlearned questions avoid, knowing that they do gender strifes. 24And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient, 25In meekness instructing those that oppose themselves; if God peradventure will give them repentance to the acknowledging of the truth; 26And that they may recover themselves out of the snare of the devil, who are taken captive by him at his will.
If I got in a tragic car accident I would be so happy
I could leave the earth and be with God. "Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ"I take it this is the biggest violater of what I said. lets take a look at what Jesus said In John 20:19–23. Let me read it: "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.’ When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."The priest forgive the sins by the power of the holy spirit, which means by God. Jesus gave permission for reconciliation right in the gospel.
I could leave the earth and be with God. "Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ"I take it this is the biggest violater of what I said. lets take a look at what Jesus said In John 20:19–23. Let me read it: "On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, ‘Peace be with you.’ When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord. Jesus said to them again, ‘Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.’ And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."The priest forgive the sins by the power of the holy spirit, which means by God. Jesus gave permission for reconciliation right in the gospel.Hi Letsgofishing,
"Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ"I take it this is the biggest violater of what I said. The priest forgive the sins by the power of the holy spirit, which means by God. Jesus gave permission for reconciliation right in the gospel.
But if it is the biggest violator of what you believe, then how can you defend the priests?As for scriptures, I would think the Lord using the word remit was for a reason in the KJV.John 20: 19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD. 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. I would think remit would refer to sins personally against them. Who are they to forgive or not forgive for God? It has to be in regards to offenses towards them personally. How else can they have the power to not remit sins by retaining them?You have to take the whole verse into consideration in what they are actually implying and watch out for those tricky other versions.If you do not agree with everything in the Catholic Church, then leave.2 Thessalonians 3: 1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; ....14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. 16Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all. 17The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. 18The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
"Only priests who have received the faculty of absolving from the authority of the Church can forgive sins in the name of Christ"I take it this is the biggest violater of what I said. The priest forgive the sins by the power of the holy spirit, which means by God. Jesus gave permission for reconciliation right in the gospel.
But if it is the biggest violator of what you believe, then how can you defend the priests?As for scriptures, I would think the Lord using the word remit was for a reason in the KJV.John 20: 19Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20And when he had so said, he shewed unto them his hands and his side. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw the LORD. 21Then said Jesus to them again, Peace be unto you: as my Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost: 23Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. I would think remit would refer to sins personally against them. Who are they to forgive or not forgive for God? It has to be in regards to offenses towards them personally. How else can they have the power to not remit sins by retaining them?You have to take the whole verse into consideration in what they are actually implying and watch out for those tricky other versions.If you do not agree with everything in the Catholic Church, then leave.2 Thessalonians 3: 1Finally, brethren, pray for us, that the word of the Lord may have free course, and be glorified, even as it is with you: 2And that we may be delivered from unreasonable and wicked men: for all men have not faith. 3But the Lord is faithful, who shall stablish you, and keep you from evil. 4And we have confidence in the Lord touching you, that ye both do and will do the things which we command you. 5And the Lord direct your hearts into the love of God, and into the patient waiting for Christ. 6Now we command you, brethren, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that ye withdraw yourselves from every brother that walketh disorderly, and not after the tradition which he received of us. 7For yourselves know how ye ought to follow us: for we behaved not ourselves disorderly among you; ....14And if any man obey not our word by this epistle, note that man, and have no company with him, that he may be ashamed. 15Yet count him not as an enemy, but admonish him as a brother. 16Now the Lord of peace himself give you peace always by all means. The Lord be with you all. 17The salutation of Paul with mine own hand, which is the token in every epistle: so I write. 18The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
" if you do not agree with everything in the catholic church then leave."I believe in confesion.I meant to say " I think this is the biggest violater of what I said"instead of what I believe.I do disagree with the catholic church, but how can I say I hate the seperation of churches and then switch denominations. I would be the worlds largest hypocrite. I would be more contradictlary then John Kerry. You change the church you don't just leave. You confront the problem not just Run away from it.
I can only say again Gods word has no denomination God is not Catholic (nor Protestant)If you are in his Word how can one be called a hypocrite for changing a thing of men, by men, for men, it has nothing to do with God you are only a hypocrite if you change Gods or compromise his word for teachings of men that are contrary to Gods Word. You only need to worry about whether God calls you a hypocrite and trying to justify any of man's religions by compromising Gods Word,when one knows better is exactly what he will call hypocritical
Jon-Marc
New Member
Doing penance is the same things as works--trying to obtain God's favor through our own feeble efforts. God tells us that it is ONLY by grace through faith, and NOT by works.
We can only confess our sins and seek forgiveness from another man or woman when we have transgressed or offended them. All other confession should be directed to the One who can take or wash our sin away.
Jon-Marc
New Member
(servant_of_the_end;25565)
We can only confess our sins and seek forgiveness from another man or woman when we have transgressed or offended them. All other confession should be directed to the One who can take or wash our sin away.
Exactly. ONLY God can forgive sins. No mere mortal can. Nor can any mere mortal tell you if your sins are forgiven or not. They can't see inside you as God can. Nor do they know your thoughts or intentions as God does. If you confess your sins to a man (or woman), you will still be lost since they don't know if you are sincere or not and can't help you anyway, but God knows whether you're sincere or not.
We can only confess our sins and seek forgiveness from another man or woman when we have transgressed or offended them. All other confession should be directed to the One who can take or wash our sin away.
Exactly. ONLY God can forgive sins. No mere mortal can. Nor can any mere mortal tell you if your sins are forgiven or not. They can't see inside you as God can. Nor do they know your thoughts or intentions as God does. If you confess your sins to a man (or woman), you will still be lost since they don't know if you are sincere or not and can't help you anyway, but God knows whether you're sincere or not.
and only God can forgive sins.He just does it through the priest.Like ive said before.at least when I'm stuck in that confessional box I am not going to be wasting peoples time by trying to forgive there sins.Instead its going to be God through me.
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