What does Colossians 1:16 mean when it says "For by him were all things created..."

[Peterlag]

It's important to note the context of the verse and why it's written and placed where it is. Reading the book of Colossians reveals that the Colossians Church had lost its focus on Christ. Some of the believers at Colosse had in practice forsaken their connection with the head who is Jesus Christ, and some were even being led to worship angels (2:18-19). The situation in Colosse called for a strong reminder of Christ's headship over his Church and the Epistle to the Colossians provided just that. There is no definitive reason to believe the believers in Colosse were Trinitarian. A thorough reading of Acts shows that no Apostle or teacher in Acts ever presented the Trinity on their witnessing itineraries. Instead they presented that Jesus was "...a man approved of God..." (Acts 2:22), God's "servant Jesus" (Acts 3:13), God's "Prince" (Acts 5:31), the "one anointed" (Acts 10:38), the "Son of God" (Acts 9:20). Acts has no presentation to new Christians that Jesus was God, nor was there any formal presentation of the Trinity and Colosse was reached with the Word during the Acts period. This is an important background because Trinitarians read Colossians about Christ creating and think it refers to Jesus creating the earth in the beginning.

People are often confused by Colossians 1:16 because it says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created..." When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17). After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38). The Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, which is the "new man" their new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24). Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel"). And in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, which is the Church of God.

We are in a position to more fully understand verse 16 once we understand that Jesus created things for the Church. The word "all" is used in the Bible in a limited sense just the way we also use it today. My wife told me the kids ate all the cookies. She did not mean the kids ate all the cookies in the world, but rather just the cookies that were in the house. 2 Samuel 17:14 says "...all the men of Israel..." agreed on advice when Absalom held a council against his father David. "All" the men of Israel did not agree with Absalom, but all the men who were there with him did. Jeremiah 26:8 says "all the people" seized Jeremiah to put him to death. All the people did not mean all the people on the planet, but rather all the people who were there. Understand? One must determine from the context if "all" is being used in the wide sense of "all in the universe" or in the narrow sense of "all in a specific" context. I believe the narrow sense is being applied in Colossians 1:16 when it says Jesus created "all" things for his Church and not "all" things in the universe.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

All the things "created" in this list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning, but rather the "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, which are the positions that Christ needed to run his Church, which he created for that purpose because these are the things Jesus needed to administer his Church. The Colossians believers had lost their focus on Christ as the head of the Church and Colossians 1:16 elevates Christ to his rightful position as Lord by noting that he was the one who created the powers and authorities in the Church.

 

[Aunty Jane]

I answered this in the other thread.....so here it is again....

When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17).

Aren't you now reading into scripture words that are not there? I am seeing assumptions used to support a belief. Can't we allow scripture to speak for itself? It does if you let it....
When Paul wrote to the Colossians, placing emphasis on the God-given position of superiority that Christ enjoys, (Colossians 1:13-20) he did so to promote how truth would counteract paganistic philosophy, Jewish tradition, and another practice, “a form of worship of the angels.” (Col 2:18)

A deceptive philosophy was being fostered by false teachers in Colossae. Emphasis was being placed on the observance of the Mosaic Law. The practice of asceticism was also being urged. The apostle warned Colossian Christians to look out, so that someone would not carry them off “as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.” (Col 2:8)

In 2 Corinthians 5:17 Paul was alluding to the spirit anointing of Christ's elect.
Luke 3:21-22....
“As [Jesus] was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: ‘You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.’” At that point Jesus became “a new creation,” a spirit-begotten Son of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17) This was something "new" in his existence and when those who were chosen to rule with him as "kings and priests" were also spirit begotten, they too could look forward to the literal transformation that would occur at their resurrection......from having a physical body to being given a spirit body....becoming a completely "new creation". This is what being "born again" means.

But this is only for the elect.....not all Christians have "the heavenly calling". As Paul demonstrated in 1 Corinthians 1:2...
"to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."

And also Colossians 1:2...
"To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father."
Do you see the subtle differentiation between those called to be "saints", and those who are also disciples of the Lord, who are not so called. (Hebrews 3:1) It is God who calls them.

Understanding this differentiation, we can see that not all Christians will go to heaven. Those who are spirit anointed have a specific role to play as "kings and priests" under the direction of the "High Priest" Jesus Christ. (Revelation 20:6) These alone experience the "first resurrection".
The general resurrection of the dead takes place after the cleansing of the earth of all wickedness and Christ is ruling as King.....then he will call all the dead from their graves to resume their lives on earth, and to be reunited with their families. (John 5:28-29)
God never intended for the earth to be a training ground for heaven...it was meant to be our permanent home, and will yet be once the Kingdom has fulfilled its role. (Revelation 21:2-4)

After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38), the Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, that is, the "new man" their new nature (2Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24)

I don't see this at all. When Christ is spoken of with reference to creation, he was said to be "in the beginning with God" and that can only mean one thing.....the beginning of creation, (Revelation 3:14) since it is mentioned a few times. There is no reason to think that "creation" means something other than what is stated and what is understood when referencing it. Otherwise you too can read into scripture what you want to see, rather than what is actually says. It can be a trap. There are some things clearly stated, and some things not so clearly stated....you cant make a 'doctrine' out of a suggestion or an inference....but it can be held as a 'tentative' belief if it doesn't fight with other scripture.

Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel") and in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, the Church.

When you see the structure of God's people in how they were commanded to worship, Paul spoke of types and shadows....the Temple for example was the centre of God's worship in Jerusalem, but after the death of his Christ, the Temple was destroyed...never to be built again.....why? Because that shadow was to disappear and the heavenly type was to come to the fore. "New Jerusalem" was now the seat of God's worship in heaven. No geographical location on earth matters anymore.
Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman tells us....
"The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." (John 4:19-21)

The whole earth would now become the Promised Land with Christ with his elect ruling over redeemed mankind; the priesthood would assist Christ in the administration of his duties, just as the priests did for the presiding High Priest in Israel when worship was centered around the Temple.
Their subjects will be those who either survive the great tribulation, or who come back to earthly life in the resurrection. "The last day" is when Jews expected the resurrection to take place as Martha said to Jesus concerning her brother Lazarus..."Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:19-21) The thousand year reign of God's Kingdom is "the last day".

It is so important to have the truth, but we cannot do so in isolation from other like-minded Christians.....we must belong to a united global brotherhood who all speak in agreement with no divisions and no dissension. (1 Corinthians 1:10) These must also be "doing the will of the Father"...rather than just talking about it. (Matthew 7:21-23) They were to preach the "good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nation" before "the end" of the present world system comes crashing down upon an unsuspecting world. (Matthew 24:14)

 

[Windmillcharge]

For by him [Jesus] all things were created..." When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis,

Which as John1says is correct.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

 

[Peterlag]

Which as John1says is correct.
1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. 4 In him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind. 5 The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

The "Word" is the wisdom, plan or purpose of God and the Word became flesh as Jesus Christ. Thus, Jesus Christ was the Word in the flesh, which is shortened to the Word for ease of speaking. Scripture is also the Word in writing. Everyone agrees that the Word in writing had a beginning. So did the Word in the flesh. In fact, the Greek text of Matthew 1:18 says that very clearly: "Now the beginning of Jesus Christ was in this manner..." The modern Greek texts all read "beginning" in Matthew 1:18. Birth is considered an acceptable translation since the beginning of some things is birth, and so most translations read birth. Nevertheless, the proper understanding of Matthew 1:18 is the beginning of Jesus Christ. In the beginning God had a plan, a purpose, which became flesh when Jesus was conceived.

 

[Peterlag]

I answered this in the other thread.....so here it is again....


Aren't you now reading into scripture words that are not there? I am seeing assumptions used to support a belief. Can't we allow scripture to speak for itself? It does if you let it....
When Paul wrote to the Colossians, placing emphasis on the God-given position of superiority that Christ enjoys, (Colossians 1:13-20) he did so to promote how truth would counteract paganistic philosophy, Jewish tradition, and another practice, “a form of worship of the angels.” (Col 2:18)

A deceptive philosophy was being fostered by false teachers in Colossae. Emphasis was being placed on the observance of the Mosaic Law. The practice of asceticism was also being urged. The apostle warned Colossian Christians to look out, so that someone would not carry them off “as his prey through the philosophy and empty deception according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary things of the world and not according to Christ.” (Col 2:8)

In 2 Corinthians 5:17 Paul was alluding to the spirit anointing of Christ's elect.
Luke 3:21-22....
“As [Jesus] was praying, the heaven was opened up and the holy spirit in bodily shape like a dove came down upon him, and a voice came out of heaven: ‘You are my Son, the beloved; I have approved you.’” At that point Jesus became “a new creation,” a spirit-begotten Son of God. (2 Corinthians 5:17) This was something "new" in his existence and when those who were chosen to rule with him as "kings and priests" were also spirit begotten, they too could look forward to the literal transformation that would occur at their resurrection......from having a physical body to being given a spirit body....becoming a completely "new creation". This is what being "born again" means.

But this is only for the elect.....not all Christians have "the heavenly calling". As Paul demonstrated in 1 Corinthians 1:2...
"to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."

And also Colossians 1:2...
"To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father."
Do you see the subtle differentiation between those called to be "saints", and those who are also disciples of the Lord, who are not so called. (Hebrews 3:1) It is God who calls them.

Understanding this differentiation, we can see that not all Christians will go to heaven. Those who are spirit anointed have a specific role to play as "kings and priests" under the direction of the "High Priest" Jesus Christ. (Revelation 20:6) These alone experience the "first resurrection".
The general resurrection of the dead takes place after the cleansing of the earth of all wickedness and Christ is ruling as King.....then he will call all the dead from their graves to resume their lives on earth, and to be reunited with their families. (John 5:28-29)
God never intended for the earth to be a training ground for heaven...it was meant to be our permanent home, and will yet be once the Kingdom has fulfilled its role. (Revelation 21:2-4)


I don't see this at all. When Christ is spoken of with reference to creation, he was said to be "in the beginning with God" and that can only mean one thing.....the beginning of creation, (Revelation 3:14) since it is mentioned a few times. There is no reason to think that "creation" means something other than what is stated and what is understood when referencing it. Otherwise you too can read into scripture what you want to see, rather than what is actually says. It can be a trap. There are some things clearly stated, and some things not so clearly stated....you cant make a 'doctrine' out of a suggestion or an inference....but it can be held as a 'tentative' belief if it doesn't fight with other scripture.


When you see the structure of God's people in how they were commanded to worship, Paul spoke of types and shadows....the Temple for example was the centre of God's worship in Jerusalem, but after the death of his Christ, the Temple was destroyed...never to be built again.....why? Because that shadow was to disappear and the heavenly type was to come to the fore. "New Jerusalem" was now the seat of God's worship in heaven. No geographical location on earth matters anymore.
Jesus' conversation with the Samaritan woman tells us....
"The woman said to him: “Sir, I see that you are a prophet. 20 Our forefathers worshipped on this mountain, but you people say that in Jerusalem is the place where people must worship.” 21 Jesus said to her: “Believe me, woman, the hour is coming when neither on this mountain nor in Jerusalem will you worship the Father." (John 4:19-21)

The whole earth would now become the Promised Land with Christ with his elect ruling over redeemed mankind; the priesthood would assist Christ in the administration of his duties, just as the priests did for the presiding High Priest in Israel when worship was centered around the Temple.
Their subjects will be those who either survive the great tribulation, or who come back to earthly life in the resurrection. "The last day" is when Jews expected the resurrection to take place as Martha said to Jesus concerning her brother Lazarus..."Jesus said to her: “Your brother will rise.” 24 Martha said to him: “I know he will rise in the resurrection on the last day.” (John 11:19-21) The thousand year reign of God's Kingdom is "the last day".

It is so important to have the truth, but we cannot do so in isolation from other like-minded Christians.....we must belong to a united global brotherhood who all speak in agreement with no divisions and no dissension. (1 Corinthians 1:10) These must also be "doing the will of the Father"...rather than just talking about it. (Matthew 7:21-23) They were to preach the "good news of the Kingdom in all the inhabited earth as a witness to all the nation" before "the end" of the present world system comes crashing down upon an unsuspecting world. (Matthew 24:14)

Aren't you now reading into scripture words that are not there?

*** No I am not. And in this post I provide more data. Everything on that list in verse 16 deals with the powers that Christ set up to run his Church. There's nothing there about trees and oceans.

... when those who were chosen to rule with him as "kings and priests" were also spirit begotten, they too could look forward to the literal transformation that would occur at their resurrection......from having a physical body to being given a spirit body....becoming a completely "new creation". This is what being "born again" means.

*** May I have a verse that says the Christian, those in the body of Christ are chosen as kings and priests?

But this is only for the elect.....not all Christians have "the heavenly calling".

*** I need a verse for this too.

As Paul demonstrated in 1 Corinthians 1:2...
"to the church of God that is in Corinth, to those who are sanctified in Christ Jesus, and called to be saints, with all those in every place who call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, their Lord and ours."

*** The above verse is talking about me because I'm a member of the Church of God, sanctified in Christ, and called to be a saint.

And also Colossians 1:2...
"To the saints and faithful brothers and sisters in Christ who are at Colossae: Grace to you and peace from God our Father."

*** Again, I'm a saint and in Christ.

Do you see the subtle differentiation between those called to be "saints", and those who are also disciples of the Lord, who are not so called.

*** No.

 

[Mr E]

It's important to note the context of the verse and why it's written and placed where it is. Reading the book of Colossians reveals that the Colossians Church had lost its focus on Christ. Some of the believers at Colosse had in practice forsaken their connection with the head who is Jesus Christ, and some were even being led to worship angels (2:18-19). The situation in Colosse called for a strong reminder of Christ's headship over his Church and the Epistle to the Colossians provided just that. There is no definitive reason to believe the believers in Colosse were Trinitarian. A thorough reading of Acts shows that no Apostle or teacher in Acts ever presented the Trinity on their witnessing itineraries. Instead they presented that Jesus was "...a man approved of God..." (Acts 2:22), God's "servant Jesus" (Acts 3:13), God's "Prince" (Acts 5:31), the "one anointed" (Acts 10:38), the "Son of God" (Acts 9:20). Acts has no presentation to new Christians that Jesus was God, nor was there any formal presentation of the Trinity and Colosse was reached with the Word during the Acts period. This is an important background because Trinitarians read Colossians about Christ creating and think it refers to Jesus creating the earth in the beginning.

People are often confused by Colossians 1:16 because it says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created..." When we read the word "create" we usually think about the original creation in Genesis, but there are other ways the word is used in Scripture. For example, Christians are "new creations" (2 Corinthians 5:17). After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38). The Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, which is the "new man" their new nature (2 Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24). Not only did Jesus create his Church out of Jew and Gentile, he had to create the structure and positions that would allow it to function, both in the spiritual world (positions for the angels that would minister to the Church... see Revelation 1:1 "his angel"). And in the physical world (positions and ministries here on earth... see Romans 12:4-8; Ephesians 4:7-11). The Bible describes these physical and spiritual realities by the phrase, "...things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible. Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, which is the Church of God.

We are in a position to more fully understand verse 16 once we understand that Jesus created things for the Church. The word "all" is used in the Bible in a limited sense just the way we also use it today. My wife told me the kids ate all the cookies. She did not mean the kids ate all the cookies in the world, but rather just the cookies that were in the house. 2 Samuel 17:14 says "...all the men of Israel..." agreed on advice when Absalom held a council against his father David. "All" the men of Israel did not agree with Absalom, but all the men who were there with him did. Jeremiah 26:8 says "all the people" seized Jeremiah to put him to death. All the people did not mean all the people on the planet, but rather all the people who were there. Understand? One must determine from the context if "all" is being used in the wide sense of "all in the universe" or in the narrow sense of "all in a specific" context. I believe the narrow sense is being applied in Colossians 1:16 when it says Jesus created "all" things for his Church and not "all" things in the universe.

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

All the things "created" in this list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning, but rather the "thrones, powers, rulers and authorities, which are the positions that Christ needed to run his Church, which he created for that purpose because these are the things Jesus needed to administer his Church. The Colossians believers had lost their focus on Christ as the head of the Church and Colossians 1:16 elevates Christ to his rightful position as Lord by noting that he was the one who created the powers and authorities in the Church.

Thanks for the invitation to comment. I like that you are searching the scriptures and seeking to understand. I hope you can follow along as I tackle your premise. -If you and I were in conversation and my team is what is now known as the LA Chargers. Talking with you about football, ifI I said something like-- "In the beginning, they were the San Diego Chargers." -because I'm a San Diego guy and that's how I will always think about them. Even though I used the phrase 'in the beginning' you would know that I'm not talking about Genesis specifically, because we were talking about football, not creation. My reference was about 'in the past' or 'in former times' and not about the beginning of 'everything.'

It's important to note the context of the verse and why it's written and placed where it is.

Absolutely. So make sure you don't dismiss it. The verse you quote provides the context. You don't get to substitute the context provided for your own alternative idea. The verse is clearly referencing creation (and not the church as you propose) since it specifies- "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth..."

All means all. It's even a bigger ALL because it isn't restricted to physical things on earth, but ALL things everywhere-- the heavenly things above and the earthly things below.

People are often confused by Colossians 1:16 because it says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created..."

The crucial error you make is in the way you associate the man Jesus and insert him into the text and your understanding. I know, you know you are doing this because you even put it in parentheses when you did it. You got the wrong guy. I hope I don't lose you here, so please hear me out. I'm not trying to be cute, because of course it's Jesus-- but how do you consider him to be? The Jesus that the disciples knew and the Jesus that Paul knew might be quite different than the way you think of him. And I think you kind of get it, in a round about way-- based on what you say here below--

Jesus was not around in the beginning to create the heavens and the earth, but he did create the "all things" that pertain to his Body, which is the Church of God.

That's 100% true. "Jesus" was born a couple of thousand years ago and 'in the beginning' he was a baby born in Bethlehem to Mary and Joseph. That's his beginning. So when Paul is speaking-- we know he isn't talking about the [Jesus] you inserted into the text, by that context he provides. He's talking about something other than the man Jesus.... he is talking about a different "kind" of Jesus, in truth-- the only one he (Paul) ever met.

I don't want to let this post get long, but when you consider context there is a lot to consider. Listen first to how Peter describes first of all 'the man' Jesus. One could argue that there were none closer to Jesus than Peter, James and John. In addressing the followers in Acts we read of Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit describing him like this-

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know– this man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. “But God raised him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for him to be held in its power."

Peter makes a clear distinction between what Jesus- the man, did and what God did. Peter, full of the Spirit, fully aware of all that had taken place- makes it unmistakable that Jesus in this context, was a man. If Peter ever wanted to declare Jesus to be something other than a man, he missed his chance. He goes on to explain even further, but we aren't talking here about the Jesus Peter knew, but the one Paul knew. The only Jesus Paul ever met was not a man. This too, is context for your consideration.

As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.”

 

[farouk]

Thanks for the invitation to comment. I like that you are searching the scriptures and seeking to understand. I hope you can follow along as I tackle your premise. -If you and I were in conversation and my team is what is now known as the LA Chargers. Talking with you about football, ifI I said something like-- "In the beginning, they were the San Diego Chargers." -because I'm a San Diego guy and that's how I will always think about them. Even though I used the phrase 'in the beginning' you would know that I'm not talking about Genesis specifically, because we were talking about football, not creation. My reference was about 'in the past' or 'in former times' and not about the beginning of 'everything.'



Absolutely. So make sure you don't dismiss it. The verse you quote provides the context. You don't get to substitute the context provided for your own alternative idea. The verse is clearly referencing creation (and not the church as you propose) since it specifies- "For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth..."

All means all. It's even a bigger ALL because it isn't restricted to physical things on earth, but ALL things everywhere-- the heavenly things above and the earthly things below.



The crucial error you make is in the way you associate the man Jesus and insert him into the text and your understanding. I know, you know you are doing this because you even put it in parentheses when you did it. You got the wrong guy. I hope I don't lose you here, so please hear me out. I'm not trying to be cute, because of course it's Jesus-- but how do you consider him to be? The Jesus that the disciples knew and the Jesus that Paul knew might be quite different than the way you think of him. And I think you kind of get it, in a round about way-- based on what you say here below--



That's 100% true. "Jesus" was born a couple of thousand years ago and 'in the beginning' he was a baby born in Bethlehem to Mary and Joseph. That's his beginning. So when Paul is speaking-- we know he isn't talking about the [Jesus] you inserted into the text, by that context he provides. He's talking about something other than the man Jesus.... he is talking about a different "kind" of Jesus, in truth-- the only one he (Paul) ever met.

I don't want to let this post get long, but when you consider context there is a lot to consider. Listen first to how Peter describes first of all 'the man' Jesus. One could argue that there were none closer to Jesus than Peter, James and John. In addressing the followers in Acts we read of Peter, filled with the Holy Spirit describing him like this-

“Men of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed through him in your midst, just as you yourselves know– this man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put him to death. “But God raised him up again, putting an end to the agony of death, since it was impossible for him to be held in its power."

Peter makes a clear distinction between what Jesus- the man, did and what God did. Peter, full of the Spirit, fully aware of all that had taken place- makes it unmistakable that Jesus in this context, was a man. If Peter ever wanted to declare Jesus to be something other than a man, he missed his chance. He goes on to explain even further, but we aren't talking here about the Jesus Peter knew, but the one Paul knew. The only Jesus Paul ever met was not a man. This too, is context for your consideration.

As he was traveling, it happened that he was approaching Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him; and he fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?” And he said, “Who are You, Lord?” And He said, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting, but get up and enter the city, and it will be told you what you must do.”

@Mr E John 1 says of the Lord Jesus, 'Without Him was not anything made that was made'.

 

[Mr E]

@Mr E John 1 says of the Lord Jesus, 'Without Him was not anything made that was made'.

It doesn't mention Jesus, farouk. It is speaking of the spirit, the word, the logos-- that which was in him.

 

[farouk]

It doesn't mention Jesus, farouk. It is speaking of the spirit, the word, the logos-- that which was in him.

The Lord Jesus is the Word Himself.

 

[Behold]

All the things "created" in this list are not the earth and trees and sky that God created in the beginning,.

Its always interesting to see a Bible Denier, on a Christian Forum say...>"that word ALL, does not mean ALL"....let me show you what i think.

And you did.

A.) Think Again.

And while you are at it..... you should read . John 1:10 that correlates and confirms Colossians 1:16.........just as 1 Timothy 3:16 correlates and confirms John 1:1

 

[Mr E]

The Lord Jesus is the Word Himself.

Not according to scripture. The word is from above- spirit. Jesus is from below- flesh. You might not agree, but scripture does.

 

[farouk]

Not according to scripture. The word is from above- spirit. Jesus is from below- flesh. You might not agree, but scripture does.

The glorious Incarnation is Scriptural; John 1.14; Colossians 2.9; 1 Timothy 3.16: the union of the two natures, Divine and Human.

 

[Mr E]

The glorious Incarnation is Scriptural; John 1.14; Colossians 2.9; 1 Timothy 3.16: the union of the two natures, Divine and Human.

Let me ask you this—- do you consist of the union of two natures? (Divine and Human) / or not?

 

[farouk]

Let me ask you this—- do you consist of the union of two natures? (Divine and Human) / or not?

What happened at the Incarnation - most gloriously - was unique. John 1.14.

 

[Behold]

Not according to scripture. The word is from above- spirit. Jesus is from below- flesh. You might not agree, but scripture does.

Let me show you what Jesus said to you.


John 8:23 ... Jesus said...."I am from ABOVE, and YOU are from Below".

 

[Wrangler]

Thanks for starting this thread.

I've been tempted to compile a list of refutations of common trinitarian appeals. John 1:1, the Oneness doctrine and Col 1:16 rank at the top of legs they often use support their man-made dogma.

This is an important background because Trinitarians read Colossians about Christ creating and think it refers to Jesus creating the earth in the beginning.

Here is where biased trinitarian translators seek to modify the word of God to fit their dogma. This is why I seek out different translations. The NLT is the one I prefer for this verse for it makes it clear the creating is being done, not by Jesus but by God. (The juxtaposition cannot be acknowledged by trinitarians).

Christ Is Supreme
15 Christ is the visible image of the invisible God.
He existed before anything was created and is supreme over all creation,[a]
16 for through him God created everything
in the heavenly realms and on earth.
He made the things we can see
and the things we can’t see—
such as thrones, kingdoms, rulers, and authorities in the unseen world.
Everything was created through him and for him.
17 He existed before anything else,
and he holds all creation together.
Colossians 1:15-17 NLT​

In this sentence, "Christ" is the "him" through which Creation happened. Who did this creating is explicitly not Jesus in the NLT rendering but God.

People are often confused by Colossians 1:16 because it says "For by him [Jesus] all things were created..."

Anytime two prepositions are put together, it is a clumsy sentence, e.g., 'for by' or 'for through.' It almost says Jesus created everything, which is exactly what trinitarians want to believe. But almost relies on a lack of reading skills to support a flawed dogma. In fact, it may be a literal translation but is not proper English. The CJB renders is in more precise English language usage.

because in connection with him were created all things​

The passive voice of 'were created' makes it clear the creating was done by another Being other than Jesus. There is no 'created by' to mislead anyone and the 'in connection' makes clear that although Jesus was involved, connected, he was NOT the Creator.

there are other ways the word is used in Scripture.

Most significantly, it is used to refer to re-creating. Our God is not merely a Creator but through Christ, he is a re-Creator, a redeemer. 1 COR 15:23-28. We were not just made, we were made to be right with God - through his chosen suffering servant. Keeping this adoption in mind of who Jesus is, is most important.

To read Collosians in context of Scripture, one must realize it was after The Gospel of Mark and The Acts of the Apostles, were it is written a proof text destroying trinitarianism:

This is the Good News about Jesus the Messiah, the Son of God (not God the Son).
Mark 1:1
For he has set a Day when he will judge the inhabited world, and do it justly, by means of a man whom he has designated. And he has given public proof of it by resurrecting this man from the dead.”
Acts 17:31 CJB​

It means Jesus was selected, among men, to carry out God's plan. In another thread, one poster deliberately misinterpretted this point, fixating instead on and asserting that the man Jesus was not selected but Judgment Day was selected. In my correcting his error, his ego could not admit the verse explicitly juxtaposes God with this man who God selected. Hard to fit the trinity into that. And Col 1:16 must be read with this pre-existing understanding of the audience in Collosse in mind.

 

[Mr E]

I can send you a bible if you need one, and you really seem to need one.

Let me show you what Jesus said to you.


John 8:23 ... Jesus said...."I am from ABOVE, and YOU are from Below".


PM me if you want me to send you a New Testament.

Being snarky doesn’t bolster your case. Jesus speaks the word of God by the spirit of God within him. The spirit works and speaks through him.

 

[Wrangler]

After the resurrection, God delegated to Christ the authority to create, and when we read the Epistles we see evidence of Jesus creating things for his Church. Ephesians 2:15 refers to Christ creating "one new man" (his Body, the Church) out of Jew and Gentile. In pouring out the gift of holy spirit to each believer (Acts 2:33 and 38), the Lord Jesus has created something new in each of them, that is, the "new man" their new nature (2Corinthians 5:17; Galatians 6:15; Ephesians 4:24)

I don't see this at all.

Really? The entire purpose of Christ's ministry, to re-create, to make man born again of Spirit not flesh, you do not see at all? Wow!

Or do you merely mean that you do not see it in Col 1:16?

 

[marks]

Colossians 1:16
For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on the earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

This has a parallel passage;

John 1:1-4 KJV
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2) The same was in the beginning with God.
3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

This has a parallel passage;

John 1:1-4 KJV
1) In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2) The same was in the beginning with God.
3) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.
4) In him was life; and the life was the light of men.

Much love!

No sir! John 1:1-4 is talking about God not Jesus who is not introduced until v14.