1. Welcome to Christian Forums, a Christian Forum that recognizes that all Christians are a work in progress.

    You will need to register to be able to join in fellowship with Christians all over the world.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured What does the Olive Tree represent?

Discussion in 'Bible Study Forum' started by charity, Aug 25, 2020.

  1. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    2,369
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    'The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree,
    fair, and of goodly fruit:
    with the noise of a great tumult He hath kindled fire upon it,
    and the branches of it are broken.'

    (Jeremiah 11:16)

    Hi there,

    In Romans 11, Paul takes the figure of the Olive tree from Jeremiah, but he also refers to Jeremiah 31:31 (in Romans 11:27) where the Olive tree is once more complete.

    'Behold, the days come, saith the LORD,
    .. that I will make a new covenant
    .... with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
    ...... Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers
    ........ in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt;
    .......... which my covenant they brake,
    ............ although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD:
    But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel;
    .. After those days, saith the LORD,
    .... I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts;
    ...... and will be their God, and they shall be My People.
    ........ And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour,
    .......... and every man his brother, saying, "Know the LORD":
    ............ for they shall all know Me,
    ............... from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD:'
    for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.'

    (Jeremiah 31:31-34)

    * There are some who maintain that the olive tree of Romans 11 is to be found in Christendom today, but such teaching is contrary to Jeremiah 11, Jeremiah 31 and Romans 11 alike.

    * The book of Jeremiah consists of 51 prophecies, each introduced by some phrase as, 'The word of the Lord came' The opening prophecy is indicative of all the rest:-

    'See I have this day set thee over the nations and over the kingdoms, to root out, and to pull down, and to destroy, and to throw down, to build, and to plant' (Jeremiah 1:10)

    * The subject of this prophecy are clearly 'nations' and 'kingdoms', not churches. Also the prophecy is two-fold: first, judgment in the form of 'rooting out', and then, restoration in the form of 'planting'.

    * The second prophecy in Jeremiah occupies just two verses:-

    'Moreover the word of the LORD came unto me, saying,
    "Jeremiah, what seest thou?" And I said, "I see a rod of an almond tree."
    Then said the LORD unto me, "Thou hast well seen:
    for I will hasten My word to perform it."

    (Jeremiah 1:11-12)

    * The word for 'almond tree' is 'shaked', and the word for 'hasten' is 'shaked', the almond being called the 'watcher' or 'early waker'. When the time for Israel to be restored, the same word is used again:-

    'And it shall come to pass, that like as I have watched over them (shaked), to pluck up, ... ... ... so will I watch over them, ... ... to plant, saith the LORD. ... ... I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:'
    (Jeremiah 31:28-31)

    * In verses 36 and 37 Israel are assured that they shall not be cast off on account of their misdeeds - a passage which finds an echo in the words of Romans 11:29, 'For the gifts and calling of God are without repentance.' Returning to Jeremiah 11:16, and the green olive tree with the broken branches, the prophet interprets the symbol as referring to Israel, and in Jeremiah 12:1, says, 'But if they will not obey, I will utterly pluck up and destroy that nation, saith the Lord' (Jeremiah 12:17)

    * In the context of Romans 11:16 also, where Israel is portrayed as an olive tree, see the 'watcher' observing it's disobedience and blindness in Romans 10:21, Romans 11:25-26 and Romans 11:28, declaring Israel to be enemies of the gospel. So there can be no doubt that it is not a church that is in view, but Israel as a nation.

    Thank you
    In Christ Jesus
    Chris
     
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2020
    CadyandZoe, marks and Hidden In Him like this.
  2. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,702
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Wrong approach and understanding of Scripture like Jeremiah 11.

    Ps 52:8
    8 But I am like a green olive tree in the house of God: I trust in the mercy of God for ever and ever.

    KJV

    Ps 128:1-3
    128:1 Blessed is every one that feareth the LORD; that walketh in His ways.
    2 For thou shalt eat the labour of thine hands: happy shalt thou be, and it shall be well with thee.
    3 Thy wife shall be as a fruitful vine by the sides of thine house: thy children like olive plants round about thy table.

    KJV

    In Jeremiah 11, God is giving a rebuke about the house of Israel and the house of Judah, their having fallen away into Baal idol worship against Him. He tells how He originally planted them and originally called them an olive tree and of goodly fruit.

    I think you need to study it again.

    Jer 11:15-17
    15 What hath My beloved to do in Mine house, seeing she hath wrought lewdness with many, and the holy flesh is passed from thee? when thou doest evil, then thou rejoicest.

    16 The LORD called thy name, A green olive tree, fair, and of goodly fruit: with the noise of a great tumult He hath kindled fire upon it, and the branches of it are broken.


    17 For the LORD of hosts, that planted thee, hath pronounced evil against thee, for the evil of the house of Israel and of the house of Judah, which they have done against themselves to provoke me to anger in offering incense unto Baal.

    KJV
     
    marks likes this.
  3. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,714
    Likes Received:
    6,557
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    Yes. I think the only question is what is meant by the words "all Israel" in Romans 11:26:

    25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: 27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

    In quoting Isaiah in v.26, Paul is quoting the Septuagint which matches it word for word in the Greek. But if you read the Masoretic, it explains what the "all" means more clearly. The literal rendering is, "'And the Redeemer comes to Zion, and to those in Jacob who turn from transgression,' declares Jehovah." In other words, not every Israelite will be saved, but only those in Jacob who turn from transgression. Thus, the meaning of "all Israel" in Paul and the LXX is likely this: Those who turn to the Lord will be delivered and saved, whether through the rapture, or in the case of the 144,000 at His return in power, for they will have become part of true Israel. Those, however, who do not turn to faith in the Lord are going to be annihilated by the Antichrist and cease to be. The only Israel that will survive the time of the Antichrist will be those who turn to Him, but these will be saved. Thus the saying holds true that "all Israel" will be saved.
     
  4. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    14,211
    Likes Received:
    8,539
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    That's an interesting thing about the NT quote.

    Doesn't Paul quoting from the LXX attest to that reading?

    Much love!
     
  5. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,714
    Likes Received:
    6,557
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    It attests to the use of the LXX by Paul (and other NT writers), yes. But if you mean does it favor the Greek reading as opposed to the Hebrew, as if the two were somehow in disagreement, no. The point is that the LXX reading should be interpreted in light of the Masoretic, making the statement "and so all Israel shall be saved" conditional upon those who come to the Redeemer and those who do not.
     
  6. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,702
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    See Ezekiel 44.

    If you don't understand about the two houses of Israel, you may not understand this. The "house of Israel" after 1 Kings 11 represents the ten northern tribes of Israel which are still scattered among the Gentiles today, with most of them having lost knowledge of their heritage as part of the seed of Israel. The "house of Judah" represents the Jews which kept their heritage as part of the seed of Israel.

    Ezek 44:5-14
    5 And the LORD said unto me, "Son of man, mark well, and behold with thine eyes, and hear with thine ears all that I say unto thee concerning all the ordinances of the house of the LORD, and all the laws thereof; and mark well the entering in of the house, with every going forth of the sanctuary.

    Starting at Ezekiel 40 is Christ's millennium reign timing. It is when His sanctuary will be standing in future Jerusalem, on earth. This "house" is God's house of John 12. The "many mansions" actually means 'abodes' for His faithful priests.


    6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,

    7 In that ye have brought into My sanctuary strangers, uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in My sanctuary, to pollute it, even My house, when ye offer My bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken My covenant because of all your abominations.

    That above must be understood in the proper timeline perspective, because it's covering a long period of time, from the time of the rebellion by the ten tribes during Jeroboam's day involving Baal worship, and then their scattering out of the land in continuing in Baal worship into new lands among the Gentiles, and then even corruptions later once many of them received Christ and The Gospel. So this is not just about the seed of the ten tribes of Israel in Old Testament times, it is also including the seed of the ten tribes in modern times too in the Christian Churches as pastors, etc. We are to apply that above idea of "sanctuary" in that verse 7 to mean the temple in OT times, and then for Christ's Church once The Gospel was preached to them, otherwise in Ezekiel 40 forward "sanctuary" applies to God's House during Christ's future Millennial reign with His elect.


    8 And ye have not kept the charge of Mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of My charge in My sanctuary for yourselves.
    9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger, uncircumcised in heart, nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into My sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.

    That above is pointing to the idea of the crept in unawares, like the old nations of Canaanites that slowly crept into the temple service as Nethinims, some of them even having become priests (1 Kings 9; Ezra 2, 8, 15). In modern times, it applies to the pagan creeping into Christ's Church and distorting The Word of God.


    10 And the Levites that are gone away far from Me, when Israel went astray, which went astray away from Me after their idols; they shall even bear their iniquity.

    That above particularly was about the Levite priests among the ten tribes during the time when they went astray into the golden calf idol worship that Jeroboam, king of the house of Israel setup in the northern lands of Israel. In this future millennial time, those will bear their iniquity and stand in judgment throughout the thousand years under Christ.


    11 Yet they shall be ministers in My sanctuary, having charge at the gates of the house, and ministering to the house: they shall slay the burnt offering and the sacrifice for the people, and they shall stand before them to minister unto them.

    12 Because they ministered unto them before their idols, and caused the house of Israel to fall into iniquity; therefore have I lifted up Mine hand against them, saith the Lord GOD, and they shall bear their iniquity.

    Jesus Christ is the only Perfect Sacrifice for one and all time. So mention of these sacrifices in Ezekiel 44 for the millennial time represents today's Christian sacrifice per Apostle Paul, which is about our love to The Father and His Son Jesus Christ. This again is about the Levite priests of old Israel when the ten tribes fell into idol worship, and also modern times about the priests of the house of Israel in Christ's Church that cause their congregations to fall away from Christ Jesus.


    13 And they shall not come near unto Me, to do the office of a priest unto Me, nor to come near to any of My holy things, in the most holy place: but they shall bear their shame, and their abominations which they have committed.

    14 But I will make them keepers of the charge of the house, for all the service thereof, and for all that shall be done therein.
    KJV


    Those Levites, which of course includes today's pastors that fall away, and lead their congregations astray, will bear the menial duties in Christ's future Millennial temple at Jerusalem, on earth. They will not be allowed to approach our Lord Jesus in that time. But they are going to be there, and they will serve the people while under judgment throughout the whole millennium.

    In the next section of Ezekiel 44, it speaks of the Zadok priests, which is put for those in Christ Jesus that reign with Him. The name Zadok was the name of one descended from the Aaron line, but for the future millennium, it applies to Christ's elect who reign with Him, of both believing Israelite and believing Gentile. The name Zadok actually means 'the Just', or 'the Righteous'. Another title for our Lord Jesus is 'King of the Righteous'.
     
  7. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,702
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    About the Ezekiel 44 chapter...

    That chapter reveals a bit more info of what Paul meant by the Romans 11:25 with 'all Israel'.

    In Romans 11 Paul made it plain that God blinded Israel in part so The Gospel would go to the Gentiles. He also revealed a time would come when that blindness would be removed from them. Until then, Paul said they are enemies against The Gospel.

    The Ezekiel 44 chapter shows that God is going to gather the seed of Israel as He promised them, but it does not mean they all will be of the "first resurrection" unto Christ Jesus. The 1,000 years reign by Christ and His elect will be a probation period for them, just as it will be for the unbelieving nations also.
     
    mjrhealth likes this.
  8. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    14,211
    Likes Received:
    8,539
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Both different, but both correct?
     
  9. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,714
    Likes Received:
    6,557
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I read through this. It has some merits, Davy, but I have never favored a spiritualized interpretation of the sacrifices described in Ezekiel 45-46. They include rams, lambs, and bulls, which seems far too specific to be spiritualizing them into various kinds of Christians or something.

    God bless. Maybe you have something more to say on this.
     
  10. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,714
    Likes Received:
    6,557
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Yes. In agreement.
     
  11. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    14,211
    Likes Received:
    8,539
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    These seem to me to be contradictory.

    Either Jesus is returning to turn away ungodliness from Jacob, or is coming to those in Jacob who have turned away from ungodliness.

    On the one hand, Jesus is taking an action, on the other hand, the people have already acted. Doesn't it seem like that to you?

    Much love!
     
  12. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,442
    Likes Received:
    5,558
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States

    Ezekiel 17:24 And all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord have brought down the high tree, have exalted the low tree, have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish: I the Lord have spoken and have done it.

    Luke 23:28-31 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. [29] For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. [30] Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us. [31] For if they do these things in a green tree, what shall be done in the dry?

    all the trees of the field shall know that I the Lord ...’have dried up the green tree, and have made the dry tree to flourish:’ James 4:8-10 Draw nigh to God, and he will draw nigh to you. Cleanse your hands, ye sinners; and purify your hearts, ye double minded. [9] Be afflicted, and mourn, and weep: let your laughter be turned to mourning, and your joy to heaviness. [10] Humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord, and he shall lift you up.
     
  13. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,714
    Likes Received:
    6,557
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    "Redeemer/Deliverer" in both means He's taking an action in both. :)

    Much love to you, too. Much, much love... like bucketloads of it, LoL!
     
    marks likes this.
  14. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    14,211
    Likes Received:
    8,539
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Bless your heart!!
     
    Hidden In Him likes this.
  15. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    6,714
    Likes Received:
    6,557
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    LoL!


    [​IMG]
     
  16. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    11,969
    Likes Received:
    9,936
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Canada
    FALSE. And it would be "not the Church" (capitalized for the Body of Christ).

    Romans 11 makes it quite clear that the good olive tree (also called the green olive tree) is BELIEVING ISRAEL. The Gentiles are called branches grafted into the good olive tree from the wild olive tree. Hence they must not be high-minded in relation to the Jews.

    The Church began on the day of Pentecost with BELIEVING JEWS. But Gentiles were added to the Church shortly thereafter. Later on the Church became predominantly Gentile.
     
  17. quietthinker

    quietthinker Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    3,723
    Likes Received:
    2,871
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    Australia
    Olive = oil.....Oil = God's Spirit......God's Sprit is evidenced by character development in harmony with God himself of which Jesus came to bear testimony.
     
  18. charity

    charity Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    2,531
    Likes Received:
    2,369
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United Kingdom
    Davy likes this.
  19. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    14,211
    Likes Received:
    8,539
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    Well, if I understand what you are saying, the Olive tree is not currently being grafted into, and that this teaching shows the time when the "go into all nations teaching them" command was applicable.

    Jeremiah shows that this word picture should be applied not to individual gentiles within a non-Jewish faith, but to the people groups of the nations and how they relate to Israel.

    The OT times depict other nations as corporately serving or denying God, same in the end of Zecheriah of the coming kingdom age, "the nation that does not come". But with the abeyance of the kingdom offer to Israel, and with the Gospel now sent to the gentiles, this is an entirely different thing, and we're not talking about nations being added to Israel, who is the head of the nations, with the light to the gentiles shining through Israel. That will be in the Millennium.

    Now we're talking about God going directly to individuals, on a comletely personal basis. So we're not being grafted into the Olive Tree, that was the dispensation then, as Israel still could have repented nationally, and the kingdom come. But when that time ended, the Olive Tree is in the same abeyance as is the offer of the kingdom.

    Is this what you're saying?

    Much love!
     
    charity likes this.
  20. Davy

    Davy Well-Known Member

    Messages:
    4,702
    Likes Received:
    1,022
    Faith:
    Christian
    Country:
    United States
    I don't believe literal sacrifices are meant, simply because of Christ's Sacrifice on the cross. So we have to ask what other reasons would our Heavenly Father have for giving that within prophecy for the millennium sanctuary time? And it's very easy to know those Ezekiel 40 thru 47 chapters are definitely future, simply because there has never been a temple built like that one described, and definitely not a temple in Jerusalem where the waters of the river of life flow out from the sanctuary and feed other waters upon the earth, healing them, and with the tree of life on either side of it.

    The matter of the 'dead' mentioned there in Ezekiel 44 is another matter that must be understood according the future millennium time, and not for during this present world. We are told the Zadok shall not come at any dead person to defile themselves, but for a relative they may defile themselves. The 'dead' in that time mean the spiritually dead who will still be subject to the "second death".

    Spiritual death is something our Lord Jesus taught. It is a real factor about the condition of one's soul with spirit, irregardless of the flesh (Matthew 23:27; Luke 11:44). Apostle Paul reinforces that concept in Romans about those who don't have the Spirit of Christ in them, etc. So the unbelieving soul with spirit can be literally alive in the heavenly, yet that soul is in a spiritually dead state and subject to perishing at the "second death" into the future "lake of fire" after the millennium. That is the difference between the spiritually 'dead' and those in Christ who are 'born again' of The Spirit. The mention of the "resurrection of damnation" happening on the day of Jesus' return, per John 5:28-29, is proof that the unsaved will be in that state of spiritual damnation, and that is who the 'dead' of Rev.20:5 actually are. Here in Ezekiel 44, they are mentioned as the "dead" also.
     
Loading...