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Featured What happens when we die?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Jan 16, 2020.

  1. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    Here is a great explanation and well put together understanding of this topic:

    Premise

    Traditionally most people believe that there is a ghost-like “spirit” inside of our bodies, and when we die, this spirit floats away somewhere, preferably heaven.

    I will show that the Bible actually does not support this theory. In fact, according to the Bible there is no spirit inside of us at all. We exist only as mortal bodies, made from dust having been given the breath of life. And it is this “breath of life” that is confused with, or interpreted as, a “spirit”.


    What Happens When We Die

    Scripture says it plainly.

    Genesis 3:19

    By the sweat of your face you shall eat bread, till you return to the ground, for out of it you were taken; for you are dust, and to dust you shall return.”

    Job 7:21

    Why then do you not pardon my transgression and take away my iniquity? For now I will lie down in the dust; And You will seek me, but I will not be."

    Job 14:10:12

    But man dies and lies prostrate man expires, and where is he? "As water evaporates from the sea, and a river becomes parched and dried up, so man lies down and does not rise. Until the heavens are no longer, he will not awake nor be aroused out of his sleep.

    Psalm 115:17

    The dead praise not the Lord, neither any that go down into silence.

    Psalm 146:4

    When his breath departs, he returns to the earth; on that very day his plans perish.

    Ecclesiastes 3:19-20

    For what happens to the children of man and what happens to the beasts is the same; as one dies, so dies the other. They all have the same breath, and man has no advantage over the beasts, for all is vanity. All go to one place. All are from the dust, and to dust all return.

    Ecclesiastes 9:5

    For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing

    Over and over again the Bible says that the dead know nothing. These are only a few examples. The dead don’t think. They don’t praise the Lord. They have no consciousness. They return to the earth, as dust. Their plans perish and they cease to exist. Ecclesiastes 3 even tells us that man has no advantage over the beasts. All go to one place, which is dust.


    Death Compared to Sleep

    Psalms 13:3

    Consider and answer me, O LORD my God; Enlighten my eyes, or I will sleep the sleep of death,

    1 Kings 2:10

    Then David slept with his fathers and was buried in the city of David.

    When Lazarus died, Jesus said he was sleeping.

    John 11:11-14

    After he had said this, he went on to tell them, “Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep; but I am going there to wake him up.” 12 His disciples replied, “Lord, if he sleeps, he will get better.” 13 Jesus had been speaking of his death, but his disciples thought he meant natural sleep. 14 So then he told them plainly, “Lazarus is dead


    Why would Jesus compare Lazarus’ death to “sleep” if Lazarus’ spirit has ascended into heaven? And why was there no mention of his spirit leaving his body?

    Matthew 9:24

    He said, "Leave; for the girl has not died, but is asleep." And they began laughing at Him.

    Daniel 12:2

    Many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt.

    Daniel was told he would “rest” until the resurrection.

    Daniel 12:13

    As for you, go your way till the end. You will rest, and then at the end of the days you will rise to receive your allotted inheritance.”

    If Daniel’s spirit was to go to heaven after death, then why was he told that he would rest? Why did the angel not say instead, I’ll see you in heaven soon, or something to that effect? It’s because Daniel wasn’t going to heaven. He was going to the dust of the earth. Daniel is now dead. He is not in heaven. He’s dead in the dust of the earth and on the day of the resurrection, he will rise, along with the rest of us.


    What Happens When we are Resurrected

    The resurrection, as Paul describes it, actually also proves that we have no spirit in us that goes to heaven when we die.

    Imagine if we did have a spirit. We would fly up to heaven and we would do whatever we do in heaven. Praise the Lord, play Frisbee, eat BBQ chicken. No matter how you envision an existence in heaven, it would require at the very least that we have a consciousness, a thought process and a free will to continue to make decisions. All of this would contradict the old testament verses above.


    It would also contradict the new testament book of 1 Corinthians, because according to Paul this life in a spiritual body, which we imagine in heaven, does not come to us until the very last day, when we are resurrected.

    1 Corinthians 15:42

    So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

    1 Corinthians 15:46

    The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual. 47 The first man was of the dust of the earth; the second man is of heaven.

    Paul clearly states that we are created with a natural body, not a spiritual body. We will be transformed into a spiritual body upon the resurrection. “The spiritual did not come first, but the natural, and after that the spiritual”. In other words, when God created us, we were not given spiritual bodies, only natural bodies, but we would receive spiritual bodies later, upon the resurrection.

    Our bodies are sewn natural, raised spiritual. This is the point of the resurrection, to make us spiritual so that we can be immortal. So if you believe that we already have immortal spirits that leave our bodies when we die, you have a conundrum.



    The Spiritual Conundrum

    Imagine the traditional teaching, where we have a spirit and we go to heaven as a spirit when we die. Then please tell me, what is the point of the resurrection?

    If we are already in heaven, as immortal spirits, then why would we need to be transformed into spirits on the last day? If it is so, then when our bodies on earth are transformed into spirits, do we end up with two spirits? The one in heaven and the one on earth? Would both spirits have their own separate consciousness? Do our spirits in heaven then join our old bodies which have been transformed? Would we then be a spirit within a spirit? Two spirits? What nonsense!

    If we’re being transformed into spirits, then we can not already be spirits, otherwise what would be the point? The point of the resurrection is to make us immortal. To make us spirits. This would be entirely nonsensical if we are already living as spirits in heaven, and this is how Paul’s description of the resurrection proves that we do not have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after death.


    Soul (Nephesh)

    To add to the confusion, in addition to the obvious body and the presumed spirit, we also supposedly possess a “soul”. What is a soul? You are a soul.

    Genesis 2:7

    And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Notice in the verse above that man became a living soul. He was not given a soul. He became a soul. In other words, we do not have souls, we are souls.

    The word soul in this verse was originally written in Hebrew as לְנֶ֥פֶשׁ which is transliterated as nephesh. Strong’s concordance defines nephesh as “a soul, living being, life, self, person, desire, passion, appetite, emotion”. With this definition in mind, the last part of Genesis 2:7 can be paraphrased as, for example “man became alive” or “man became an individual”. It is in fact the very moment when man gained his self awareness and free will.

    The same word occurs 754 times in the old testament, so we can’t look at all examples but let’s look at one more.

    Genesis 1:20

    And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life (Nephesh), and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

    Here the King James Bible translates it as “creature that hath life”. Remember, this is the same word that was translated as “soul” in Genesis 2:7. The more examples you look at the more obvious it becomes that when the word “soul” is used in scripture it refers simply to “a living creature”.
     
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  2. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    So keep in mind the true meaning of the word Nephesh, which can be translated as soul, living creature, person or individual, when you read verses such as…

    Ezekiel 18:20

    The soul who sins shall die.

    The living creature who sins…

    The person who sins…

    The individual who sins…


    The Spirit (Ruach)

    On the flip side, there are a number of verses that can be used to support the notion that we all have a spirit inside of us that continues to live after the body dies. And at first glance, some of these verses are very convincing.

    For example

    Ecclesiastes 12:7

    the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    2 Corinthians 5:8

    Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

    James 2:26

    For as the body apart from the spirit is dead, so also faith apart from works is dead.

    Obviously, the key to understanding such verses is understanding the meaning of “spirit”. As it turns out, in these examples, the word spirit refers to the breath of God, which is life.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7

    the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit returns to God who gave it.

    This verse seems to imply that our spirit goes up to heaven when we die, but actually “spirit” here refers to the life that God breathed into man in Genesis 2:7. It’s the life that returns to God, because the life came from God.

    Genesis 2:7

    And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    The word used through the old testament for spirit is the Hebrew word Ruach ר֫וּחַ, which can also be translated as “breath or wind”. In fact, this is how it is translated in various other verses including Genesis 7:15 and Psalm 104:29.

    Genesis 7:15

    Pairs of all creatures that have the breath of life (ruach) in them came to Noah and entered the ark.

    Psalm 104:29

    When you hide your face, they are terrified; when you take away their breath (ruach), they die and return to the dust.

    When God gave man life, it was his breath/wind/spirit which God gave. The spirit of God is life. And it’s this spirit, this life, that returns to God in Ecclesiastes 12:7

    Ecclesiastes 12:7

    the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (ruach – life / breath) returns to God who gave it.

    Other verses clearly explain that it is the spirit of God, or the breath of God, that has given us life.

    John 6:63 says The Spirit gives life; the flesh counts for nothing. The words I have spoken to you--they are full of the Spirit and life.

    Job 33:4 says The spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.


    The many Hebrew names of God in fact include the word Ruach each time.


    English Name | Hebrew Name

    The Spirit of God | Ruach Elohim

    The Spirit of the Lord | Ruach Adonai

    The Holy Spirit | Ruach Hakkodesh

    The Spirit of the Lord God | Ruach Adonai Elohim

    The Spirit of God | Ruach-El


    Clearly, the word Ruach does not refer to a ghostly spirit that lives inside each of us, but rather the breath of life which came from God himself, and which is a part of God himself. Let’s look at the verse again.

    Ecclesiastes 12:7

    the dust returns to the ground it came from, and the spirit (breath of life) returns to God who gave it.

    And now compare that to the verse that describes man becoming a living creature.

    Genesis 2:7

    And the Lord God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    In other words, God gave his living spirit (Ruach) and man became a living soul (Nephesh).


    When Jesus Died

    When this discussion of a spirit comes up people often point to references around Jesus’ death on the cross as proof that his “spirit” left him.

    Luke 23:46

    And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

    Matthew 27:50

    And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

    John 19:30

    So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit.


    I used to think, as most people do, that each reference to “spirit” in these verses referred to a conscious ghostly entity that left Jesus’ body and floated up to heaven (or hell, depending on who you ask) where Jesus continued to “live”. However, if we look at the original Greek word used we get an entirely different picture.

    Remember, the Hebrew word translated as spirit in the old testament is Ruach and it means “breath” or “wind”. In the new testament the original text is Greek and in each of these three verses above, the word translated as spirit is the Greek word “Pneuma”. Pneuma means “wind, breath, spirit”. It has the exact same meaning as the Hebrew Ruach. Go figure.

    Also remember that in Genesis 2:7 God created man and gave man the breath of life. That god given breath is not just a simple breath that we take for granted; it is life. So if we understand that the Greek meaning of the word “pneuma” is actually a reference to life itself which God breathed into us, these verses suddenly take on a whole new meaning.



    Luke 23:46

    And when Jesus had cried out with a loud voice, He said, "Father, 'into Your hands I commit My spirit life.'" Having said this, He breathed His last.

    Matthew 27:50

    And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit life.

    John 19:30

    So when Jesus had received the sour wine, He said, "It is finished!" And bowing His head, He gave up His spirit life.


    Of course, looking back at it now, it seems so obvious that Jesus did not continue to live in spirit form after his death, because if that were the case he wouldn’t have really died. But he actually did die. He really died. The breath of life left him and he died.

    There is literally no Bible verse that claims there is a ghostly spirit inside each of us that lives on after death. In fact, quite the opposite. All indications are that when we die, we return to the dust of the earth, without any consciousness, knowing nothing and realizing nothing. And it’s only at the resurrection, when the breath of God returns to us, that we become spiritual creatures.


    Further Evidence

    Acts 2:29

    Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day”

    Acts 2:34

    For David is not ascended into the heavens

    John 5:28-29

    Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth

    John 3:13

    And no man has ascended up to heaven
     
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  3. marks

    marks Well-Known Member

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    He who lives and believe into Me shall never die.

    - Jesus
     
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  4. Hobie

    Hobie Active Member

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    James 2:19
    Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

     
  5. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    BEWARE OF FALSE TEACHERS AND THEIR FALSE TEACHINGS.

    What you have posted may be acceptable to cults, but not to Bible-believing Christians.
     
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  6. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    I agree, @Enoch111,

    Usually, the traditional interpretation of scripture is the right one.
     
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  7. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Addressing the OP,
    Isa 42:5 Thus saith God the LORD, he that created the heavens, and stretched them out; he that spread forth the earth, and that which cometh out of it; he that giveth breath unto the people upon it, and spirit to them that walk therein:

    Body plus spirit = Living Soul, consciousness, which means, aware of and responding to one's surroundings; awake.

    Sleep, on the other hand is the Body without the spirit = death, natural unconsciousness, which the dead knows nothing.

    now, the flesh returns to the dust, and the spirit returns to who gave it, (Isa 42:5), GOD.

    so the Soul, where do it Go? no where. just as it was when body meet breath, so where was the soul before then? no where it was produce when the breath meets the body..... with the understanding when the spirit is given. can we back this up? to all females who might have experinced what I'm about to say, I apologize in advance.

    a woman can carry a child in her belly for 9 months, it can kick, move and DO other things, but it can be born, what we call "Still Born". yet it seem to be alive for the time it was in it's mother womb, but now dead at birth. so the true life is not in the blood according Lev 17:11-14. only the "natural" life of the "flesh" is in the blood. but there is life in the spirit. but the true life is in the Spirit of God.

    NATURAL LIFE: Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    the son of God Job said this, Job 27:3 "All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils". so it's the spirit that remembers, or records our lives in these bodies, and it returnes to God who gave it. for our lives are recorded in the spirit. the key word is "remembrance". scripture, Luke 23:39 "And one of the malefactors which were hanged railed on him, saying, If thou be Christ, save thyself and us".
    Luke 23:40 But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?"
    Luke 23:41 And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss".
    Luke 23:42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
    Luke 23:43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.

    ok, if the soul knows nothing at death, definitly it's not the soul that is going to remember. but the spirit do.

    my best example to understand the "ROM", and the "RAM" memory of a computer. when a computer is turned off, it looses all of it's "RAM" memory, it's volatile. but the "ROM" is static, it never looses it's data. and the hard drive record all the activity.

    so look at the Soul as "RAM" memory volatile, when turned off/Die, knows NOTHING, (the dead know nothing). but the "Rom" the spirit, when resurrected/turned on "RESTORE" the memory that was volatile. and upon this resurrection the "RAM" can acess the Hard Drive/the books, or it is written, and restore the "Memory".

    I know that this is a crude example, but the best one I can use.

    PICJAG.
     
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  8. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    if you are born again then you receive the Life that is Christ's, note He didn't die. He was dead to this world but not dead to the Father in Heaven, and that is the difference.

    for example some think their memories will go with them to heaven. not so, the memory you have now can be lost instantly by injury or ailments like alzheimer. let alone no brain at all in the dirt. the only memory that remains in Heaven is God's memory of you or not of you. hence if He know you then you are never dead to Him and He has eternal life that He can give. dead to the world isn't necessarily dead to God.
     
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  9. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Isaiah 65:17 says, "For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind."

    Vs. 65:16
    "For the past troubles will be forgotten and hidden from my eyes."

    Could these verses mean that we will only be made to forget the "past troubles" and not the other memories of our lives down here?
     
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  10. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    that's why the BOOKS, and that's with a "s" at the end of books, meaning more than one. our recording angel have taken out on us a dossier of everything we have done in this body. and that's why, what is called a book of remembrance is written, the book of Life. it is expressed that way for us to understand. our spirit is from God, and return to God. so he have a record of everything. that's why he is omniscient.

    Good post DP.

    PICJAG.
     
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  11. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    Yes, for he will wipe away all our tears. why for he have blotted out all our transgression. Romans 3:25 "Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God".

    as I stated in my response to DP, the Books will be open. meaning your pass life before coming to Christ and the life in Christ. in the book of our pass life all our sins and bad stuff is covered by his blood that he shed on the cross, (our past life). but anything we done good remain on the book. so in our past life nothing is remembered, supportive scripture, Jeremiah 31:34 "And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the LORD: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the LORD: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more. BINGO, there is that remembrance, he will it not to be remembered. so God takes care of our PAST life.

    now in Christ, the other book. all we have to do is just confess our sins, supportive scripture, 1 John 1:8 "If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1 John 1:9 "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. BINGO, God, once we come to his Son, the Christ, he takes care of all our past sins. and once in Christ he maintain us by our confession or as the apostle Peter says, 1 Peter 4:8 "And above all things have fervent charity among yourselves: for charity shall cover the multitude of sins". notice the "shall" so if you forget to confess a sin, one act of charity "shall", shall, shall, "COVER" that's a guarantee just in case if you slip, (forget to confess a sin), Charity, or God got you, and he keeps you from falling. what a mighty God we serve. never failing.

    Hoped that helped.

    PICJAG.
     
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  12. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Good post 101G,
    Yes, those verses did help, thank you! BTW- what does PICJAG stand for? My guess is
    : Peace In Christ Jesus and God??
     
  13. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    HI Nancy, yes, you just about got it, congratulations.
    Peace In Christ Jesus the Almighty God.

    well this is the first time someone evere figured this out, so 10 point for you on the 10 point must system, good Job.

    PICJAG
     
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  14. Nancy

    Nancy Well-Known Member

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    Well, I was close so, better minus the one very important word I missed :)
     
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  15. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    You rattle on because your premise is grossly in error. Nonetheless:
    • God is not the god of the dead but of the living.
    • That which is born of the flesh is flesh (and returns to dust), and that which is born of the spirit is spirit (and returns to God who gave it).
    • There is both. All of which is written, but you have failed to present it.
     
  16. Mike Waters

    Mike Waters Active Member

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    I'm sure that if there were a 'thumbs down, dislike' option, its use would cause less unpleasantness than some of the bigoted remarks that might prompt its use.:(
     
  17. Base12

    Base12 Active Member

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    The Bible also says that those who are alive know nothing as well...

    1 Corinthians 8:2
    "And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know"


    Job 8:9
    "For we are but of yesterday, and know nothing, because our days upon earth are a shadow"


    1 Corinthians 4:4
    "For I know nothing by myself; yet am I not hereby justified: but he that judgeth me is the Lord"


    1 Timothy 6:4
    "He is proud, knowing nothing, but doting about questions and strifes of words, whereof cometh envy, strife, railings, evil surmisings"


    Proverbs 9:13
    "A foolish woman is clamorous: she is simple, and knoweth nothing"


    Obviously the phrase 'knowing nothing' doesn't mean what you stated...

     
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  18. Base12

    Base12 Active Member

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    Why didn't you mention the other Lazarus?

    Luke 16:22
    "And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried"


    I believe many of your questions would be answered if you took the teachings on Abraham's Bosom more literally.

    Remember...

    Those that sleep also dream, thus...

    Abraham's Bosom = Peaceful Dream
    Torments = Nightmare


    In other words, there is still an active consciousness.... guilty or innocent. ;)

    Both are at rest until the Appointed Time.
     
  19. DPMartin

    DPMartin Well-Known Member

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    no

    1Co 3:12  Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; 
    1Co 3:13  Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 
    1Co 3:14  If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 
    1Co 3:15  If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire. 

    Pro 16:11  A just weight and balance are the LORD'S: all the weights of the bag are his work. 

    hence all that remain in our case is that which is of the Lord our God, that which is His, and that which He has done. Its foolish to think any thing would be in Heaven unless it be of God. whether it be praise, thought, word, and deed and especially being.
     
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  20. 101G

    101G Well-Known Member

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    nope, you're ok. 100%

    PICJAG.
     
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