What I believe about the Atonement

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John Caldwell

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I told @Steve Owen that I would explain my view of the Atonement. I did not have a chance until now. Below is outlined my view. I know @Steve Owen , @Enoch111 , and certainly @David Taylor (probably a few more) take issue with my position but at least you can see where I do stand (we've been caught up in what I do not believe that I have not articulated what I do believe).

I believe that Christ suffered and died by the will and predetermined plan of God by the hands of wicked men for our sins in order to redeem (or purchase) us and deliver us from the bondage of the powers of sin and death that had enslaved us and that it is through Christ we escape the wrath to come.

I believe that God offered His Son (His Righteous One) as a sin offering for us and that it pleased God to "crush" Him, that He (Christ), who knew no sin was made sin for us. I believe that Christ humbled Himself to obedience even to death on the cross and that He lay down His own life. I believe that Christ is the Propitiation for the sins of the whole world and that it is in Him we escape the wrath to come. He became a curse for us and it is by His stripes (His suffering and death) that we are healed. Christ destroyed the certificate expressed in decrees against us. He has taken it away by nailing it to the cross.

Christ suffered once for sins - the Just for the unjust (this "great exchange") to bring us to God by being put to death in the flesh and by being made alive in the spirit. God Himself took on the burden of our iniquities and gave His own Son as a ransom for us – the Holy One for transgressors; the blameless One for the wicked, the Righteous One for the unrighteous.

I believe that because of the love that God had for us Jesus Christ gave his body for us by the will of God (His body for our bodies and His soul for our souls), that Jesus suffered and died for our sakes, that we might be saved.

I believe that Jesus endured to deliver up His own flesh to corruption that we might be sanctified through the remission of sins which is effected by His blood. He was wounded for our transgressions and bruised for our iniquities: by His stripes we are healed. Christ took a body like our own, one liable to the corruption of death. He surrendered His body to death in place of all, representing mankind as the “second Adam”, and offered it to the Father so that in His death all might die and the law of death be abolished having fulfilled in His body that for which it was appointed. This Christ did that He might turn again to incorruption men who had turned back to corruption and make them alive through death by the appropriation of His body, that is by dying to sin in Him) and by the grace of His resurrection.

I believe that the Father of all wished His Christ for the whole human family to take upon Himself the curses of us all, knowing that after He had suffered and died He would raise Him up. He became a curse on our behalf, was chastised on our behalf, and suffered a penalty He Himself did not owe, but which we owed because of our sins. He became the cause of the forgiveness of our sins because He received death for us and transferred to Himself the beatings, the insults, and the death which were due to us. He drew down upon Himself the appointed curse, being made a curse for us. He made our sins His own and freed us form the bondage of sin and death that has held mankind in slavery by defeating the powers of evil.

Christ not only suffered and died, but by divine love sin was laid upon Him. He has and bears all the sins of man in His body (not that Jesus was a sinner but in the sense that He took these sins upon Himself in order to make satisfaction for them with His own blood). He is the “Second Adam” and the faithful “High Priest” and Redeemer of mankind. I believe that God is just and the justifier of sinners, that this is the righteousness of God manifested not through but apart from the law. I believe that the Father judges no one but has given all judgment to the Son.
 
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Steve Owen

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Oh dear! Oh dear! Oh dear! @John Caldwell! 'Mountains travail and a miserable mouse is born!'
I suppose I should say thank you for trotting out a whole load of Scriptures, but what you don't say is what they mean to you. You give no expositions and I'm still in the dark about what you actually believe. I believe all these Scriptures as you know very well, so how do we differ? You keep on about how you believe in the 'classic' doctrine of the Atonement, but classic or otherwise, you don't lay out what you think it is.

When I laid out my understanding of the Atonement, I told you what I believe the Scriptures say. The Biblical Doctrine of Penal Substitution and worked my position out in detail. I notice that you have still not had anything to do with it, even when I broke some of it down into crunchy bite-size morsels for you. I am still in the dark about what you believe about Christ as Surety.
However, let's take the first paragraph and see if you can shed some more light for us.
I believe that Christ suffered and died by the will and predetermined plan of God by the hands of wicked men for our sins in order to redeem (or purchase) us and deliver us from the bondage of the powers of sin and death that had enslaved us and that it is through Christ we escape the wrath to come.
Of what exactly does this 'wrath to come' consist? Whose wrath is it, whom is it against and for what reason? If it is God's wrath, why can't He just get over it and cheer up? How exactly does Christ save us from this wrath?
 

Enoch111

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You keep on about how you believe in the 'classic' doctrine of the Atonement, but classic or otherwise, you don't lay out what you think it is.
Classic is for Coke. But not the one to get high on.
upload_2019-12-9_11-4-54.png

Coke changed their product, but when there was an outcry against it they started talking about *Coke Classic*. The same thing with false doctrines. Now we have "classic" doctrines versus the truth.
 

John Caldwell

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Oh dear! Oh dear! Oh dear! @John Caldwell! 'Mountains travail and a miserable mouse is born!'
I suppose I should say thank you for trotting out a whole load of Scriptures, but what you don't say is what they mean to you. You give no expositions and I'm still in the dark about what you actually believe. I believe all these Scriptures as you know very well, so how do we differ? You keep on about how you believe in the 'classic' doctrine of the Atonement, but classic or otherwise, you don't lay out what you think it is.

When I laid out my understanding of the Atonement, I told you what I believe the Scriptures say. The Biblical Doctrine of Penal Substitution and worked my position out in detail. I notice that you have still not had anything to do with it, even when I broke some of it down into crunchy bite-size morsels for you. I am still in the dark about what you believe about Christ as Surety.
However, let's take the first paragraph and see if you can shed some more light for us.

Of what exactly does this 'wrath to come' consist? Whose wrath is it, whom is it against and for what reason? If it is God's wrath, why can't He just get over it and cheer up? How exactly does Christ save us from this wrath?
Look again. While my view is certainly dependent on Scripture it is also my explanation of Sripture (what I believe those passages mean) .

If it is not enough theory for you and @Enoch111 then you have both my apology and a demonstration of where we disagree.

What part of my view do you not understand?
 
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John Caldwell

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Classic is for Coke. But not the one to get high on.
View attachment 8029

Coke changed their product, but when there was an outcry against it they started talking about *Coke Classic*. The same thing with false doctrines. Now we have "classic" doctrines versus the truth.
Rather than play the fool just point out your disagreement with my stated view (I know... All of it) and we can discuss it.

You believe the OP is false doctrine (@Steve Owen believes it all Scripture for some reason.... And does not like that my belief contains so much Scripture)
 

John Caldwell

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what exactly does this 'wrath to come' consist? Whose wrath is it, whom is it against and for what reason? If it is God's wrath, why can't He just get over it and cheer up? How exactly does Christ save us from this wrath?
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? [39] When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'And the king will answer them, 'I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they too will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?' Then he will answer them, 'I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.' And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
 

reformed1689

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Oh dear! Oh dear! Oh dear! @John Caldwell! 'Mountains travail and a miserable mouse is born!'
I suppose I should say thank you for trotting out a whole load of Scriptures, but what you don't say is what they mean to you. You give no expositions and I'm still in the dark about what you actually believe. I believe all these Scriptures as you know very well, so how do we differ? You keep on about how you believe in the 'classic' doctrine of the Atonement, but classic or otherwise, you don't lay out what you think it is.

When I laid out my understanding of the Atonement, I told you what I believe the Scriptures say. The Biblical Doctrine of Penal Substitution and worked my position out in detail. I notice that you have still not had anything to do with it, even when I broke some of it down into crunchy bite-size morsels for you. I am still in the dark about what you believe about Christ as Surety.
However, let's take the first paragraph and see if you can shed some more light for us.

Of what exactly does this 'wrath to come' consist? Whose wrath is it, whom is it against and for what reason? If it is God's wrath, why can't He just get over it and cheer up? How exactly does Christ save us from this wrath?
I think Sinclair Ferguson said it best. Paraphrasing, he said, you can say you believe the Scriptures but that tells me nothing. What do you believe about the Scriptures, that is what matters. Otherwise anyone can say they believe the Scriptures and can make the Scriptures say anything they want.
 
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John Caldwell

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I think Sinclair Ferguson said it best. Paraphrasing, he said, you can say you believe the Scriptures but that tells me nothing. What do you believe about the Scriptures, that is what matters. Otherwise anyone can say they believe the Scriptures and can make the Scriptures say anything they want.
I believe that Scripture is complete.
I believe that Scripture is the Word of God.

Where we may disagree is that I do not believe in continued special divine revelation. I believe in what is written, not what people believe may be implied. I believe that all doctrine must be tested in accordance with Scripture.

That said, if you disagree with my conclusions in the OP (the OP contains both Scripture and my conclusions) then by all means be man enough to point out your disagreement. Until you find yourself able to be a man, to stand your ground and challenge my view, then I do not see that we can have any type of dialogue. Go watch some John Wayne movies, kid. :p
 

John Caldwell

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I don't believe in continued special revelation either.
So you say.

Are you man (or woman) enough to question what I actually believe or are you content to hide behind vague accusations?

What I believe (both the passages and my interpretation) is in the OP.

You just pop in and insult me, imply I am wrong, but do not explain what part of my belief you find unsubstantiated by Scripture. This is dishonest and cowardice. Are you craven? If not then please stop the accusations and let's just talk about what we believe.
 
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John Caldwell

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So you say.

Are you man (or woman) enough to question what I actually believe or are you content to hide behind vague accusations?

What I believe (both the passages and my interpretation) is in the OP.

You just pop in and insult me, imply I am wrong, but do not explain what part of my belief you find unsubstantiated by Scripture. This is dishonest and cowardice. Are you craven?
Sorry @David Taylor ,

I know you are just repeating what the guys you follow have taught you. I also know that you are unable to challenge my view on any point (which is unfortunate). I know that you cannot provide even one verse that I reject (although I do reject your interpretations of and additions to several verses). I know that you cannot argue against any of my beliefs because you most likely cannot grasp what I have posted in the OP. And I know that all you can do is insult and obscure. I guess I need to rethink my support for Liberty. At least their online program is deficient.

I will leave it open. If you mature enough in your faith to challenge my stated view then we can discuss it at that time. If and when that time comes just PM me and let me know. We can discuss my view on the open forum. Until then, may the Reformation be with you.
 
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Steve Owen

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I think Sinclair Ferguson said it best. Paraphrasing, he said, you can say you believe the Scriptures but that tells me nothing. What do you believe about the Scriptures, that is what matters. Otherwise anyone can say they believe the Scriptures and can make the Scriptures say anything they want.
Exactly. That is why Statements and Confessions of faith are so important.
 

John Caldwell

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I just realized that I "know you", @David Taylor - at least I know some of your and your wife's, Courtney, friends (your pic just popped up as a feed),... if not then nevermind. If so then that is some coincidence (we have several friends in common).
 
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Steve Owen

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Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in his glory and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. All the nations will be assembled before him, and he will separate people one from another like a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I was naked and you gave me clothing, I was sick and you took care of me, I was in prison and you visited me.' Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or naked and clothe you? [39] When did we see you sick or in prison and visit you?'And the king will answer them, 'I tell you the truth, just as you did it for one of the least of these brothers or sisters of mine, you did it for me.' "Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you accursed, into the eternal fire that has been prepared for the devil and his angels! For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink. I was a stranger and you did not receive me as a guest, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me.' Then they too will answer, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not give you whatever you needed?' Then he will answer them, 'I tell you the truth, just as you did not do it for one of the least of these, you did not do it for me.' And these will depart into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
So how do you believe the 'sheep' are saved? On what basis are they called the 'righteous'? Is it by works?
 

John Caldwell

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So how do you believe the 'sheep' are saved? On what basis are they called the 'righteous'? Is it by works?
Ephesians 2:8-10
For by grace you are saved through faith, and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God; it is not from works, so that no one can boast. For we are his workmanship, having been created in Christ Jesus for good works that God prepared beforehand so we may do them.
 

reformed1689

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So you say.

Are you man (or woman) enough to question what I actually believe or are you content to hide behind vague accusations?

What I believe (both the passages and my interpretation) is in the OP.

You just pop in and insult me, imply I am wrong, but do not explain what part of my belief you find unsubstantiated by Scripture. This is dishonest and cowardice. Are you craven? If not then please stop the accusations and let's just talk about what we believe.
It's not that your view is unsubstantiated, your view doesn't take it to the fullest extent that Scripture lays out.
 

John Caldwell

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The ones we have been discussing ad nauseam. I don't see how you can't understand penalty for sin is the same as being punished for sin. Penalty and chastisement are both synonyms for punishment.
I know, David. For most of my life and ministry I did see Penal Substitution Theory in those passages. So I understand why and what you see. Now I see something else.
 
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reformed1689

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I know, David. For most of my life and ministry I did see Penal Substitution Theory in those passages. So I understand why and what you see. Now I see something else.
What's odd is I don't understand what you see differently other than the idea of punishment, yet you do see the penalty. That makes no sense to me since the words are synonyms and actually contain each other in their respective definitions. I believe we are at an impasse.
 
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