What is Mariology?

[face2face]

Greetings all,

I am looking to have an amicable discussion with those who venerate Mary the mother of Jesus. The purpose is to gather information on the subject with the view of presenting a study session to a wide range of believers.

As I understand it a Roman Catholic believer would agree with the below statement:

"In view of her dignity as the Mother of God and her fullness of grace, a special veneration is due to Mary. This is substantially less than the cultus latriae (= adoration) which is due to God alone, but it is higher than the cultus Duliae (= veneration) due to the angels and to the other saints. The special veneration thus given to Mary is called cultus hyperduliae" Fundementals of Catholic Dogma by Ott Ludwig

Can someone lead me to the Catechism where this type of veneration is stated? Any links to a Catholic library would also be helpful.

Is there a Scripture which states Mary should be praised?

It is widely understood that the treaching of Mary being the Mother of God was advocated by St. Cyril of Alexandria, at the Council of Ephesus (431) - Does the Church acknowledge this teaching was not taught, or held by the Apostles and was a later developement by the early Church fathers?

Thank you and look forward to the discussion.

 

[Mungo]

Greetings all,

I am looking to have an amicable discussion with those who venerate Mary the mother of Jesus. The purpose is to gather information on the subject with the view of presenting a study session to a wide range of believers.

As I understand it a Roman Catholic believer would agree with the below statement:

"In view of her dignity as the Mother of God and her fullness of grace, a special veneration is due to Mary. This is substantially less than the cultus latriae (= adoration) which is due to God alone, but it is higher than the cultus Duliae (= veneration) due to the angels and to the other saints. The special veneration thus given to Mary is called cultus hyperduliae" Fundementals of Catholic Dogma by Ott Ludwig

Can someone lead me to the Catechism where this type of veneration is stated? Any links to a Catholic library would also be helpful.

Is there a Scripture which states Mary should be praised?

It is widely understood that the treaching of Mary being the Mother of God was advocated by St. Cyril of Alexandria, at the Council of Ephesus (431) - Does the Church acknowledge this teaching was not taught, or held by the Apostles and was a later developement by the early Church fathers?

Thank you and look forward to the discussion.

OK, I'll kick this off with your first query about the Catechism.
It says this in para 971 (note the part I have emboldened).
"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

Footnote 514 references the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium para 66. Here is an extract.
Placed by the grace of God, as God's Mother, next to her Son, and exalted above all angels and men, Mary intervened in the mysteries of Christ and is justly honored by a special cult in the Church...This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether singular, differs essentially from the cult of adoration which is offered to the Incarnate Word, as well to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and it is most favorable to it.

Note: "cult" here is the original meaning of the word - "a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object" - not the more common modern term "a relatively small religious group regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members"
Both quotes from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

 

[Addy]

@Mungo The OP has requested amicable conversation.. What do you think are the odds?? LOL

 

[Mungo]

@Mungo The OP has requested amicable conversation.. What do you think are the odds?? LOL

We can but hope.

 

[Addy]

We can but hope.

Well... Good luck... I would comment but... well you know...

All things are permitted, but not all things are of benefit. All things are permitted, but not all things build people up.
~1 Corintians 10:23

 

[Mungo]

It is widely understood that the treaching of Mary being the Mother of God was advocated by St. Cyril of Alexandria, at the Council of Ephesus (431) - Does the Church acknowledge this teaching was not taught, or held by the Apostles and was a later developement by the early Church fathers?

This has been hashed out many,many times and always leads to never ending arguments. But in simple terms it can be argued from Scripture. It was formally proclaimed at the Council of Ephesus against the Nestorisn heresy.

The argument is simple:
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of Jesus (
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

Scripture summary:

Jesus is God
Jesus Christ is the Word, the second person of the Trinity.
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.” (Jn 1:1)

Mary is the mother of Jesus
He assumed human nature (came in the flesh)
“And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us” (Jn 1:14)

Where did the Word become flesh? In the womb of Mary
“And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus.” (Lk 1:31).
“God sent his Son, born of a woman, born under the law” (Gal 4:4).

Mary was the mother of that son. The Word that became flesh, the second Person of the Trinity in human form, though still divine.
“who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form he humbled himself and became obedient unto death, even death on a cross.” (Phil 2:6-8)


Therefore Mary is the mother of God

In Lk 1:43 Elizabeth says (while “filled with the Holy Spirit”) And why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord (kuriou) should come to me? Several times in chapter 1 Luke uses kurios for God (indeed Mary herself does in verse 38). So Elizabeth calling Mary The mother of my Lord is calling her the mother of my God.

 

[Mungo]

Well... Good luck... I would comment but... well you know...

All things are permitted, but not all things are of benefit. All things are permitted, but not all things build people up.
~1 Corintians 10:23

Well, keep watching.

 

[Addy]

Well, keep watching.

Mungo my friend... you know my thoughts... I do not WATCH anything Catholic.... but I do drop by to say the occasional hello to YOU.
YOU are my little Catholic friend... LOL I would break bread with you.... invite you over for a beer and ribs.

 

[Enoch111]

The argument is simple:
Jesus is God
Mary is the mother of Jesus (
Therefore Mary is the mother of God.

Except that God is the triune Godhead, and Mary is not the mother of the Godhead. God (Father, Son, and Holy Spirit) has no mother.

Mary as the mother of Jesus the God-Man does not automatically lead to the veneration of Mary by any means. Indeed the Bible is careful to prevent Mary from being elevated above the position of the mother of Jesus of Nazareth. Not a single epistle refers to Mary, and that in itself should give everyone pause. Paul simply says this by divine revelation: But when the fulness of the time was come, God sent forth his Son, made of a woman, made under the law...(Gal 4:4)

This corresponds to how Christ addressed Mary each time He addressed her. He never said "Mother" but always said "Woman". thus putting distance between them. And when informed about His mother and brothers wanting to speak to Him while He was busy ministering to the multitudes, He pointed to the crowds and said that those who were His disciples were His mother, and brothers, and sisters.

All of which leads to the conclusion that Maryolatry is idolatry.

 

[Josho]

OP

What is Mariology?

 

[Addy]

HAHAHAHA @Josho ... Something for me and Mungo to play while we're drinking our beer... LOL

This has been your humour squad... Have a lovely day everyone. Back to ON TOPIC...

 

[Iconoclast]

Mary was a sinner saved by grace.
She was highly favored but she is not deity.
She is not capable of hearing and answering prayers.
She had other children.

 

[Mungo]

Mary was a sinner saved by grace.

Mary never sinned.

She was highly favored but she is not deity.

She was full of grace, but not a deity

She is not capable of hearing and answering prayers.

She is heaven and aware of our prayers.

She had other children.

No she didn't

All this has been gone through many, many times.

 

[Iconoclast]

Mary never sinned.


She was full of grace, but not a deity


She is heaven and aware of our prayers.


No she didn't

All this has been gone through many, many times.

All sinned and died in Adam
Rom3:23
5:12-21
Mary is not omniscient.
She had a normal sexual relationship with Joseph producing children.

 

[Mungo]

All sinned and died in Adam
Rom3:23
5:12-21

Jesus did not sin.
Babies haven't personally sinned.

Mary is not omniscient.

I didn't say she was.

She had a normal sexual relationship with Joseph producing children.

No she didn't

 

[Mungo]

@face2face

As you can see it's not possible to have an amicable discussion with those who venerate Mary the mother of Jesus without the ignorant anti-catholics piling in.

@Addy asked: The OP has requested amicable conversation.. What do you think are the odds?? LOL
Well we know the answer now - ZERO.

 

[Addy]

As you can see it's not possible to have an amicable discussion with those who venerate Mary the mother of Jesus without the ignorant anti-catholics piling in.

As opposed to us POLITE anti-Catholics who simply occasionally slip in to say good morning... LOL
YOU knew this was coming.... LOL

 

[Addy]

On this issue of Mary.... She was the CHOSEN mother by God to give birth to Jesus.
I know that JESUS loved His mother very much... so I am also rather fond of her... and grateful to her.
But she is not what many have made her out to be... and as for the summation on what occurred in her
bedroom.... well... that is just plain CREEPY... in my opinion.

 

[face2face]

OK, I'll kick this off with your first query about the Catechism.
It says this in para 971 (note the part I have emboldened).
"All generations will call me blessed": "The Church's devotion to the Blessed Virgin is intrinsic to Christian worship."513 The Church rightly honors "the Blessed Virgin with special devotion. From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,' to whose protection the faithful fly in all their dangers and needs.... This very special devotion ... differs essentially from the adoration which is given to the incarnate Word and equally to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and greatly fosters this adoration."514 The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, an "epitome of the whole Gospel," express this devotion to the Virgin Mary.515

Footnote 514 references the Vatican II document Lumen Gentium para 66. Here is an extract.
Placed by the grace of God, as God's Mother, next to her Son, and exalted above all angels and men, Mary intervened in the mysteries of Christ and is justly honored by a special cult in the Church...This cult, as it always existed, although it is altogether singular, differs essentially from the cult of adoration which is offered to the Incarnate Word, as well to the Father and the Holy Spirit, and it is most favorable to it.

Note: "cult" here is the original meaning of the word - "a system of religious devotion directed towards a particular figure or object" - not the more common modern term "a relatively small religious group regarded by others as strange or as imposing excessive control over members"
Both quotes from the Concise Oxford English Dictionary.

Thanks Mungo.
The links are helpful.

From the most ancient times the Blessed Virgin has been honored with the title of 'Mother of God,

Am I right then to suggest your faith believes Mary to have pre-existed? The word "Ancient" is only used of God Himself in the Bible but here you are saying Mary holds that title before Adam ???

Thanks

 

[face2face]

This has been hashed out many,many times and always leads to never ending arguments. But in simple terms it can be argued from Scripture. It was formally proclaimed at the Council of Ephesus against the Nestorisn heresy.

Mungo, I sense you have argued this subject a lot over the years. Does the Church have a historical record for the use of Mary being the Mother of God prior to the council of Ephesus?

If not, that's fine. As I said, I am gathering facts at the moment.