What is "Parousia"?

[RR144]

​

Parousia means presence. (See 2 Corinthians 10:10; Philippians 2:12.) Sadly, most Bible translators have injected their theological, doctrinal biases into their translations and have used the word “coming” for parousia. However, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon of the Bible accurately gives the definition as “presence” or “arrival.” Additionally, Professor Robert Young in Young's Literal Translation of the Bible also preserves the meaning of parousia as presence. An example of the integrity of Young’s translation is in Matthew 24:3 (YLT), “And when he (Jesus) is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, ‘Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence (parousia), and of the full end of the age?’”

In His answer, our Lord then goes into detail telling his disciples what events should transpire and were yet to happen so that they would know when Jesus had returned. Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:42 NKJV) Remember, Jesus returns as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (NKJV), “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.” A thief does not announce his presence!

Having a proper understanding of parousia can greatly alter the thought of the manner and object of the Second Advent of Christ. Our Lord was preparing the disciples to recognize that a length of time was going to intervene between his first and second advents, and that they should be watchful for all that would transpire.

This means that our Lord would be present, and there would be many who would not know it. How can this be? Wouldn’t every Christian recognize the Lord? No. Some Christians are either not watching and therefore, do know not what “time” it is, or they are looking for the wrong thing.
Jesus said, “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.” John 14:19 (NKJV) How do we harmonize this with Revelation 1:7 (NKJV), “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him (see Zechariah 12:10). And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him”?

Revelation 1:7 is not talking about our literal eyes. It means the world will recognize Christ’s presence by the establishment of His righteous kingdom on Earth. (Zechariah 14:3.) All will be resurrected. (John 5:28-29) Additionally, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.” (Isaiah 11:9 NKJV) Mankind will be restored to perfect health. (Isaiah 35:4-10)

Eventually, every eye shall discern Him and know that the Lord is present!

 

[ScottA]

​

Parousia means presence. (See 2 Corinthians 10:10; Philippians 2:12.) Sadly, most Bible translators have injected their theological, doctrinal biases into their translations and have used the word “coming” for parousia. However, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon of the Bible accurately gives the definition as “presence” or “arrival.” Additionally, Professor Robert Young in Young's Literal Translation of the Bible also preserves the meaning of parousia as presence. An example of the integrity of Young’s translation is in Matthew 24:3 (YLT), “And when he (Jesus) is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, ‘Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence (parousia), and of the full end of the age?’”

In His answer, our Lord then goes into detail telling his disciples what events should transpire and were yet to happen so that they would know when Jesus had returned. Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:42 NKJV) Remember, Jesus returns as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (NKJV), “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.” A thief does not announce his presence!

Having a proper understanding of parousia can greatly alter the thought of the manner and object of the Second Advent of Christ. Our Lord was preparing the disciples to recognize that a length of time was going to intervene between his first and second advents, and that they should be watchful for all that would transpire.

This means that our Lord would be present, and there would be many who would not know it. How can this be? Wouldn’t every Christian recognize the Lord? No. Some Christians are either not watching and therefore, do know not what “time” it is, or they are looking for the wrong thing.
Jesus said, “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.” John 14:19 (NKJV) How do we harmonize this with Revelation 1:7 (NKJV), “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him (see Zechariah 12:10). And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him”?

Revelation 1:7 is not talking about our literal eyes. It means the world will recognize Christ’s presence by the establishment of His righteous kingdom on Earth. (Zechariah 14:3.) All will be resurrected. (John 5:28-29) Additionally, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.” (Isaiah 11:9 NKJV) Mankind will be restored to perfect health. (Isaiah 35:4-10)

Eventually, every eye shall discern Him and know that the Lord is present!

Great! And how does that "harmonize" with:

Matthew 24:14​

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.​

​

1 Corinthians 15:24​

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.​

​

2 Peter 3:10-12​

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?​

​

 

[RR144]

Great! And how does that "harmonize" with:

Matthew 24:14​

And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.​

​

1 Corinthians 15:24​

Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power.​

​

2 Peter 3:10-12​

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?​

​

I think they harmonize quite beautifully. Why don't you tell me what those verses mean to you!

Thanks,

RR

 

[marks]

This means that our Lord would be present, and there would be many who would not know it. How can this be? Wouldn’t every Christian recognize the Lord? No. Some Christians are either not watching and therefore, do know not what “time” it is, or they are looking for the wrong thing.

I think the Bible is clear about Jesus' return, of which it is written, He shall appear a second time,

Hebrews 9:28 KJV
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Matthew 24:27-30 KJV
27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Like lightening shining across the entire sky, that's what it will be like. Except that the heavenly luminaries will be darkened, and that shining light of Christ, that will be the only light in the heavens. Can you imagine?

Much love!

 

[ScottA]

I think they harmonize quite beautifully. Why don't you tell me what those verses mean to you!

Thanks,

RR

Indeed they do harmonize quite beautifully. However, you seemed to be suggesting that there is no actual end of the age, that rather by the "presence" of the Lord, the earth would instead merge into "perfect health' over time without first coming to an end. Is that not what you meant?

As for how they harmonize with me: We decrease while He increases, then comes the end.

 

[Enoch111]

Parousia means presence.

It can also mean "appearing" and has been applied to both the Rapture and the Second Coming. Therefore context is critical.

 

[RR144]

It can also mean "appearing" and has been applied to both the Rapture and the Second Coming. Therefore context is critical.

Care to cite some verses?

Matthew 24:3	sign of thy coming	parousia
Matthew 24:27	coming of the Son	parousia
Matthew 24:37	coming of the Son	parousia
Matthew 24:39	coming of the Son	parousia
1 Corinthians 15:23	Christ’s at his coming	parousia
1 Corinthians 16:17	glad of the coming of Stephanas	parousia
2 Corinthians 7:6	by the coming of Titus	parousia
2 Corinthians 7:7	not by his coming only	parousia
2 Corinthians 10:10	his bodily presence	parousia
Philippians 1:26	my coming to you again	parousias
Philippians 2:12	in my presence	parousia
1 Thessalonians 2:19	Christ at his coming	parousia
1 Thessalonians 3:13	at the coming of our Lord Jesus	parousia
1 Thessalonians 4:15	remain unto the coming of the Lord	parousian
1 Thessalonians 5:23	unto the coming of our Lord	parousia
2 Thessalonians 2:1	the coming of our Lord	parousias
2 Thessalonians 2:8	brightness of his coming	parousias
2 Thessalonians 2:9	whose coming is after …	parousia
James 5:7	unto the coming of the Lord	parousias
James 5:8	the coming of the Lord draweth nigh	parousia
2 Peter 1:16	the power and coming of our Lord	parousian
2 Peter 3:4	the promise of his coming	parousias
2 Peter 3:12	hasting unto the coming of the day	parousian
1 John 2:28	before him at his coming	parousia

 

[RR144]

Indeed they do harmonize quite beautifully. However, you seemed to be suggesting that there is no actual end of the age, that rather by the "presence" of the Lord, the earth would instead merge into "perfect health' over time without first coming to an end. Is that not what you meant?

As for how they harmonize with me: We decrease while He increases, then comes the end.

One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever. - Eccl. 1:4

 

[ScottA]

One generation passes away, and another generation comes; But the earth abides forever. - Eccl. 1:4

But then you have not reconciled Eccl 1:4 with 2 Peter 3:10-12.

2 Peter 3:10-12​

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?​

 

[RR144]

But then you have not reconciled Eccl 1:4 with 2 Peter 3:10-12.

2 Peter 3:10-12​

But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up. 11 Therefore, since all these things will be dissolved, what manner of persons ought you to be in holy conduct and godliness, 12 looking for and hastening the coming of the day of God, because of which the heavens will be dissolved, being on fire, and the elements will melt with fervent heat?​

So, you take 2 Peter 3:10 literally?

2 Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.”

Let me ask you, how does a thief come in the night? He sneaks in undetected, stealthily. Therefore, Jesus’ presence is a secret presence at first. Just as the thief’s presence is discovered later, after the fact, by a smashed window, the loss of goods, etc., so the “day of the Lord” comes secretly. From a natural standpoint, it is a shock or surprise when people suddenly realize a thief has broken into their house. Thus there are two aspects: (1) a secret, unobserved intrusion (parousia) that is (2) later realized (epiphania, apokalupsis). The day of the Lord comes in as a thief, and the explosion, or “great noise,” occurs later. The initial invisible presence will subsequently become manifest with light, fire, revealment, and startling revelations.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Having a proper understanding of parousia can greatly alter the thought of the manner and object of the Second Advent of Christ. Our Lord was preparing the disciples to recognize that a length of time was going to intervene between his first and second advents, and that they should be watchful for all that would transpire.

Indeed, "parousia" involves both an arrival and a subsequent presence......seeing someone familiar at a gathering, you know he is present, but you did not see him arrive. Christ's "presence" also involves his 'arrival, but he gave a composite sign to alert his disciples that he was 'present'. These were important world events that his disciples could readily observe and know that he had arrived.....If it needed this visible "sign", then it wasn't going to be discernible any other way.

What did he tell them to look for...?
"As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your parousia and of the end of the age?”
Mistranslating "parousia" as "coming" gives a false impression, because there is Jesus "presence" indicated by the "sign" he gave, and these events had to occur like a fingerprint in time to indicate that Jesus was present and actively directing his disciples in the work that he commanded to be done in this "time of the end".

"As he sat on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?” 4 And Jesus answered them, “See that no one leads you astray. 5 For many will come in my name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and they will lead many astray. 6 And you will hear of wars and rumors of wars. See that you are not alarmed, for this must take place, but the end is not yet. 7 For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and there will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are but the beginning of the birth pains.

9 “Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name's sake. 10 And then many will fall away and betray one another and hate one another. 11 And many false prophets will arise and lead many astray. 12 And because lawlessness will be increased, the love of many will grow cold. 13 But the one who endures to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come."

So the time of Christ's presence would be marked by warfare....but not just any warfare.....this is unprecedented warfare, the likes of which had never happened in the history of the world. 1914 saw such a war break out at a time when war seemed least expected....it was the First World War which created food shortages, and it was followed by the Spanish Flu epidemic that claimed more lives than the war did. Luke mentions "pestilences" in his account (Luke 21:10-11) Great earthquakes are still occurring taking a huge toll in human lives.

There was to be a preaching work undertaken at this time, proclaimed throughout the whole world, but not by those who have no idea what "the good news of the Kingdom" actually is. Christendom makes excuses not to engage in the assignment. How was it conducted in the first century....the Bible tells us in Matthew 10:11-14 and in Acts 20:20.

Only when the sign was complete, would Jesus then manifest as judge of all living, and bring an end to satan's rule on this earth. (Heb 2:14)

This means that our Lord would be present, and there would be many who would not know it. How can this be? Wouldn’t every Christian recognize the Lord? No. Some Christians are either not watching and therefore, do know not what “time” it is, or they are looking for the wrong thing. Jesus said, “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.” John 14:19 (NKJV) How do we harmonize this with Revelation 1:7 (NKJV), “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him (see Zechariah 12:10). And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him”?

When Jesus manifests as judge at the end of these days, he will already have been separating the "sheep from the goats", observing how people respond to the preaching of the Kingdom.....a work that Jesus' disciples were commanded to undertake. (Matthew 28:19 -20)

Christ's genuine disciples are not waiting for his return, because they know that he is already here....just as he promised....guiding and directing them in these troubled times. They would be hated and persecuted for doing what Christ commanded. (John 15:18-21)

Revelation 1:7 is not talking about our literal eyes. It means the world will recognize Christ’s presence by the establishment of His righteous kingdom on Earth. (Zechariah 14:3.) All will be resurrected. (John 5:28-29) Additionally, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.” (Isaiah 11:9 NKJV) Mankind will be restored to perfect health. (Isaiah 35:4-10)

This is what all true Christians can observe with their spiritual vision, but the Kingdom is not established on the earth, it is a heavenly kingdom that will rule over earthly subjects. (Rev 21:2-4)

The judgment period in which we live will mean salvation for those alive who follow Jesus' footsteps closely (the sheep) and who obey his command to preach about the Kingdom in all the world, as he and his disciples had done in a limited way in the first century. But for the "goats", there is no salvation....they will be cast into the lake of fire, reserved for satan and his hordes. (Matthew 25:41)

Eventually, every eye shall discern Him and know that the Lord is present!

Yes, at the end, all will know who has judged them, and will know their fate. It will come as a complete shock to those who were confident about their beliefs, but they will find out the hard way that Christ "never knew" them. (Matt 7:21-23)

 

[ScottA]

So, you take 2 Peter 3:10 literally?

2 Pet. 3:10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up. “The day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night.”

Let me ask you, how does a thief come in the night? He sneaks in undetected, stealthily. Therefore, Jesus’ presence is a secret presence at first. Just as the thief’s presence is discovered later, after the fact, by a smashed window, the loss of goods, etc., so the “day of the Lord” comes secretly. From a natural standpoint, it is a shock or surprise when people suddenly realize a thief has broken into their house. Thus there are two aspects: (1) a secret, unobserved intrusion (parousia) that is (2) later realized (epiphania, apokalupsis). The day of the Lord comes in as a thief, and the explosion, or “great noise,” occurs later. The initial invisible presence will subsequently become manifest with light, fire, revealment, and startling revelations.

As I said, "Great!"...to the "thief in the night" "parousia." That much is true and has been occurring since Pentecost. But just as all creation was (literally, if you prefer) spoken into existence, so too, it is also spoken out of existence literally--that is "the elements" of it, which is that "great noise" spoken of God.

The new heaven and earth then, are not "eastward" from the presence of God, but in His presence (parousia).

 

[RR144]

When Jesus manifests as judge at the end of these days, he will already have been separating the "sheep from the goats", observing how people respond to the preaching of the Kingdom.....a work that Jesus' disciples were commanded to undertake. (Matthew 28:19 -20)

No, THAT task (separating the sheep from the goats) will be during the Kingdom reign, of the Christ.

The judgment period in which we live will mean salvation for those alive who follow Jesus' footsteps closely (the sheep) and who obey his command to preach about the Kingdom in all the world, as he and his disciples had done in a limited way in the first century. But for the "goats", there is no salvation....they will be cast into the lake of fire, reserved for satan and his hordes. (Matthew 25:41)

The only one who are being judged NOW, are those who are running for the prtize of the high calling in Christ Jesus, (Phil. 3:14)

Yes, at the end, all will know who has judged them, and will know their fate. It will come as a complete shock to those who were confident about their beliefs, but they will find out the hard way that Christ "never knew" them. (Matt 7:21-23)

Yes, in "the end", the end of the Millennial Reign, during the "little season" (Rev 20:3) when Satan is let loose, (Rev. 20:7, 8) those who follow him after having grown in perfection, will be judged on their own sins, and not those of Adam, (Rev. 20:13) as the ransom redeemed them.

 

[Robert Gwin]

​

Parousia means presence. (See 2 Corinthians 10:10; Philippians 2:12.) Sadly, most Bible translators have injected their theological, doctrinal biases into their translations and have used the word “coming” for parousia. However, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon of the Bible accurately gives the definition as “presence” or “arrival.” Additionally, Professor Robert Young in Young's Literal Translation of the Bible also preserves the meaning of parousia as presence. An example of the integrity of Young’s translation is in Matthew 24:3 (YLT), “And when he (Jesus) is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, ‘Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence (parousia), and of the full end of the age?’”

In His answer, our Lord then goes into detail telling his disciples what events should transpire and were yet to happen so that they would know when Jesus had returned. Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:42 NKJV) Remember, Jesus returns as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (NKJV), “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.” A thief does not announce his presence!

Having a proper understanding of parousia can greatly alter the thought of the manner and object of the Second Advent of Christ. Our Lord was preparing the disciples to recognize that a length of time was going to intervene between his first and second advents, and that they should be watchful for all that would transpire.

This means that our Lord would be present, and there would be many who would not know it. How can this be? Wouldn’t every Christian recognize the Lord? No. Some Christians are either not watching and therefore, do know not what “time” it is, or they are looking for the wrong thing.
Jesus said, “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.” John 14:19 (NKJV) How do we harmonize this with Revelation 1:7 (NKJV), “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him (see Zechariah 12:10). And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him”?

Revelation 1:7 is not talking about our literal eyes. It means the world will recognize Christ’s presence by the establishment of His righteous kingdom on Earth. (Zechariah 14:3.) All will be resurrected. (John 5:28-29) Additionally, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.” (Isaiah 11:9 NKJV) Mankind will be restored to perfect health. (Isaiah 35:4-10)

Eventually, every eye shall discern Him and know that the Lord is present!

As you stated RR his presence. It is the time period from the time Jesus was installed as King in the heavens, until his return to remove the wicked from the earth.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

​

Parousia means presence. (See 2 Corinthians 10:10; Philippians 2:12.) Sadly, most Bible translators have injected their theological, doctrinal biases into their translations and have used the word “coming” for parousia. However, Thayer’s Greek Lexicon of the Bible accurately gives the definition as “presence” or “arrival.” Additionally, Professor Robert Young in Young's Literal Translation of the Bible also preserves the meaning of parousia as presence. An example of the integrity of Young’s translation is in Matthew 24:3 (YLT), “And when he (Jesus) is sitting on the mount of the Olives, the disciples came near to him by himself, saying, ‘Tell us, when shall these be? and what is the sign of thy presence (parousia), and of the full end of the age?’”

In His answer, our Lord then goes into detail telling his disciples what events should transpire and were yet to happen so that they would know when Jesus had returned. Jesus said, “Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming.” (Matthew 24:42 NKJV) Remember, Jesus returns as a thief. 1 Thessalonians 5:2 (NKJV), “For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night.” A thief does not announce his presence!

Having a proper understanding of parousia can greatly alter the thought of the manner and object of the Second Advent of Christ. Our Lord was preparing the disciples to recognize that a length of time was going to intervene between his first and second advents, and that they should be watchful for all that would transpire.

This means that our Lord would be present, and there would be many who would not know it. How can this be? Wouldn’t every Christian recognize the Lord? No. Some Christians are either not watching and therefore, do know not what “time” it is, or they are looking for the wrong thing.
Jesus said, “A little while longer and the world will see Me no more, but you will see Me. Because I live, you will live also.” John 14:19 (NKJV) How do we harmonize this with Revelation 1:7 (NKJV), “Behold, He is coming with clouds, and every eye will see Him, even they who pierced Him (see Zechariah 12:10). And all the tribes of the earth will mourn because of Him”?

Revelation 1:7 is not talking about our literal eyes. It means the world will recognize Christ’s presence by the establishment of His righteous kingdom on Earth. (Zechariah 14:3.) All will be resurrected. (John 5:28-29) Additionally, “They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, For the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.” (Isaiah 11:9 NKJV) Mankind will be restored to perfect health. (Isaiah 35:4-10)

Eventually, every eye shall discern Him and know that the Lord is present!

Yes and Paruosia is used both of teh rapture and Jesus physical return to earth or His second coming.

Paruosia simply means a presence. It can be a proximate (like you are present (paruosia) in the house though not in the room, or present as in right there. Context and construct tell us which is being spoken of.

 

[amigo de christo]

I think the Bible is clear about Jesus' return, of which it is written, He shall appear a second time,

Hebrews 9:28 KJV
So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Matthew 24:27-30 KJV
27) For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
28) For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
29) Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30) And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Like lightening shining across the entire sky, that's what it will be like. Except that the heavenly luminaries will be darkened, and that shining light of Christ, that will be the only light in the heavens. Can you imagine?

Much love!

If the second coming of Christ simply meant what some of these folks above have implied .
THEN WHY DID PUAL who already HAD THE SPIRIT , write about THE COMING OF THE LORD
as though future for even paul himself . Exactly . WHY DID peter write about it . exactly . WHY DID JESUS speak about it .
Exactly MARK . Exactly my friend . ITS A DAY ALL TRUE LAMBS LOOK FORWARD TOO . YES INDEED . forever with the GLORIOUS LORD
who saved and changed us . Now lift those hands and praise the LORD .

 

[Aunty Jane]

No, THAT task (separating the sheep from the goats) will be during the Kingdom reign, of the Christ.

Those alive today in this judgment period, will be like those in Noah’s day. Just as that period came to an end with a resetting of the things on earth, with only one faithful family surviving that catastrophe, so it will be at the end of this world system of things, again consumed by violence and immorality. (Matthew 24:37-39)
The people back then saw what Noah was doing and heard him preach his message of righteousness....but not a single one responded. Jesus used this event to picture the events of the future.....we are staring down the barrel of this world’s end, just as they did. I can guarantee that not a soul perished in that flood who did not deserve to. They had ample opportunity to heed the warning, but ridiculed God’s servant instead.
(2 Pet 3:5-7; 2 Pet 2:5-6)

This world system has to come to a finish, before God can usher in the “new earth”.....which is not a new planet but a new earthly society, one governed by God (“the new heavens”) through the agency of his son and those chosen to rule with him in heaven. This will be the thousand year reign that will bring mankind back into harmony with their Creator......a reconciliation.

The only one who are being judged NOW, are those who are running for the prtize of the high calling in Christ Jesus, (Phil. 3:14)

All mankind are on trial in this “time of the end” as Jesus is “present” and separating the obedient ones from the disobedient ones. Those of the elect who are still on earth are not just floating individuals but are a cohesive group who all believe one truth and who are collectively preaching one message, assisted by those who believe as they do. (The sheep) The one thing God has always been, and always will be is orderly.....his people have always been gathered together as one people, even when they were dispersed away from their homeland, the Jews were to be united in their worship.(1 Cor 1:10) Many came from foreign lands to attend the Jewish festivals.

Yes, in "the end", the end of the Millennial Reign, during the "little season" (Rev 20:3) when Satan is let loose, (Rev. 20:7, 8) those who follow him after having grown in perfection, will be judged on their own sins, and not those of Adam, (Rev. 20:13) as the ransom redeemed them.

I believe you have the timing all wrong...at the end of the millennium is when there is one final test when satan is released from his prison to test those who have never had their faith tested. (Rev 20:1-3) The thousand year reign of the kingdom will have brought redeemed mankind back into a sinless condition, and so this test is for them to show God where their faith lies, with no sinful nature to use to the devil’s advantage.
Satan will have no new tricks, so mankind now well educated in God’s ways, will be in the same position as Adam and his wife were in Eden......their choices will be based squarely on their own free will and on their obedience to the Creator......any who succumb to satan’s temptations then, will be eliminated from existence and the devil and his hordes will then join the “goats” in the lake of fire...never to be seen again. (Rev 20:7-10; Matthew 25:41)

This is what makes sense to me.....

 

[Aunty Jane]

No, THAT task (separating the sheep from the goats) will be during the Kingdom reign, of the Christ.

Those alive today in this judgment period, will be like those in Noah’s day. Just as that period came to an end with a resetting of the things on earth, with only one faithful family surviving that catastrophe, so it will be at the end of this world system of things, again consumed by violence and immorality. (Matthew 24:37-39)
The people back then saw what Noah was doing and heard him preach his message of righteousness....but not a single one responded. Jesus used this event to picture the events of the future.....we are staring down the barrel of this world’s end, just as they did. I can guarantee that not a soul perished in that flood who did not deserve to. They had ample opportunity to heed the warning, but ridiculed God’s servant instead.
(2 Pet 3:5-7;
This world system has to come to a finish, before God can usher in the “new earth”.....not a new planet but a new earthly society, one governed by God through the agency of his son and those chosen to rule with him in heaven. This will be the thousand year reign that will bring mankind back into harmony with their Creator.

The only one who are being judged NOW, are those who are running for the prtize of the high calling in Christ Jesus, (Phil. 3:14)

All mankind are on trial in this “time of the end” as Jesus is “present” and separating the obedient ones from the disobedient ones. Those of the elect who are still on earth are not just floating individuals but are a cohesive group who all believe one truth and who are collectively preaching one message, assisted by those who believe as they do. The one thing God has always been and always will be is orderly.....his people have always been gathered together as one people even when they were dispersed away from their homeland. They were to be united in their worship.(1 Cor 1:10)

Yes, in "the end", the end of the Millennial Reign, during the "little season" (Rev 20:3) when Satan is let loose, (Rev. 20:7, 8) those who follow him after having grown in perfection, will be judged on their own sins, and not those of Adam, (Rev. 20:13) as the ransom redeemed them.

I believe you have the timing all wrong...at the end of the millennium is when there is one final test when satan is released to test those who have never had their faith tested. (Rev 20:1-3) The thousand year reign of the kingdom will have brought redeemed mankind back into a sinless condition, and so this test is for them to show God where their faith lies, with no sinful nature to use to the devil’s advantage.
Satan will have no new tricks, so mankind now well educated in his ways, will be in the same position as Adam and his wife were in Eden......their choices will be based squarely on their own free will and on their obedience to the Creator......any who succumb to satan’s temptations then, will be eliminated from existence and the devil and his hordes will then join the “goats” in the lake of fire...never to be seen again. (Rev 20:7-10; Matthew 25:41)

This is what makes sense to me.....

 

[MatthewG]

Makes a lot more sense when presence is mentioned; the apostles in which Jesus told the signs to would go on to warn others in that generation which Jesus spoke to which he told them he would be returning. I believe when this happened those who were watching and seeing did see the the Lord Jesus and they were changed from their original nature into their new spiritual nature; being part of the first church bride; from my own understanding. This happened at the fall of Jerusalem, either before, or during the besiege and the loss of the Jewish known heaven and earth; the temple was torn down; with all the stones being reduced to rubble.

 

[RR144]

Those alive today in this judgment period, will be like those in Noah’s day. Just as that period came to an end with a resetting of the things on earth, with only one faithful family surviving that catastrophe, so it will be at the end of this world system of things, again consumed by violence and immorality. (Matthew 24:37-39)
The people back then saw what Noah was doing and heard him preach his message of righteousness....but not a single one responded. Jesus used this event to picture the events of the future.....we are staring down the barrel of this world’s end, just as they did. I can guarantee that not a soul perished in that flood who did not deserve to. They had ample opportunity to heed the warning, but ridiculed God’s servant instead.
(2 Pet 3:5-7;
This world system has to come to a finish, before God can usher in the “new earth”.....not a new planet but a new earthly society, one governed by God through the agency of his son and those chosen to rule with him in heaven. This will be the thousand year reign that will bring mankind back into harmony with their Creator.

Jesus is contrasting his parousia with the days of Noah. It (the flood) came unaware and swept them all away except for Noah and his family. So tell me Jane, as a JW, you believe (or should believe) that Jesus' parousia began in 1914. If that is true, who has been "swept away"?

All mankind are on trial in this “time of the end” as Jesus is “present” and separating the obedient ones from the disobedient ones. Those of the elect who are still on earth are not just floating individuals but are a cohesive group who all believe one truth and who are collectively preaching one message, assisted by those who believe as they do. The one thing God has always been and always will be is orderly.....his people have always been gathered together as one people even when they were dispersed away from their homeland. They were to be united in their worship.(1 Cor 1:10)

So you have "the elect" and "those who believe as they do." I assume they are not "elect." So, you believe there are two distinct classes or believers currently on the earth, "Elect" and the "non-Elect"? Can you show me from scriptures where it teaches two classes of Christians being developed now? Thanks.

I believe you have the timing all wrong...at the end of the millennium is when there is one final test when satan is released to test those who have never had their faith tested. (Rev 20:1-3) The thousand year reign of the kingdom will have brought redeemed mankind back into a sinless condition, and so this test is for them to show God where their faith lies, with no sinful nature to use to the devil’s advantage.
Satan will have no new tricks, so mankind now well educated in his ways, will be in the same position as Adam and his wife were in Eden......their choices will be based squarely on their own free will and on their obedience to the Creator......any who succumb to satan’s temptations then, will be eliminated from existence and the devil and his hordes will then join the “goats” in the lake of fire...never to be seen again. (Rev 20:7-10; Matthew 25:41)

Well, we agree on this, except for one word you used, "final". While I agree that it will be THE FINAL TEST, it is THE ONLY TEST mankind will experienced. As all through this Gospel Age, since the formation of the Church, THE ELECT, they are the ONLY ones being tried and tested. These are the only ones God is dealing with, as members of the Body of Christ. When this body is complete, then, and only then, will the Lord deal with the world of mankind. That is what the Kingdom reign is for. Mankind will be taught the ways of the Lord. They will learn what the Heavenly Father has done for them through Christ Jesus via the ransom.

It is during this period that the sheep from the goats are separated.

This is what makes sense to me.....

And THIS is what makes sense to me!

RR